JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends - Page 2

tsig · 29th October 2011, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

I'll get to that, but I'd first like to prove that no one on this board can successfully answer my challenge. So far, three replies, but no cigar.

So you set up the challenge and get to decide what answers are right? No wonder you claim no one has met it.

Robert Prey · 29th October 2011, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

So you set up the challenge and get to decide what answers are right? No wonder you claim no one has met it.

Oh, but you get to decide as well. The point is, for all the know-it-all Lone Nutter advocates of this board, no one has even attempted to offer up one single piece of evidence that LHO even fired a shot. Looks to me like a bunch of very un-critical "critical thinkers."

Robert Prey · 29th October 2011, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
The Warren Commission Report - ALL of it !

And Posner's examination of the event.
The hundreds of fairy tales spewed out of the conspiracy sewer are just garbage. That which isn't bat-crap crazy... Weisberg, Livingstone... is only intended to make your money the CTwinky's money. Groden, Lane, Lifton..
Trask's "Pictures of the Pain" is a good source also.

So, it appears neither can you submit one single piece of evidence.
That makes four (Fail).

Border Reiver · 29th October 2011, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Never seen Oswald's ghost, no. What does Oswald's ghost say?

"I shot JFK. I acted alone."

matt.tansy · 29th October 2011, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Looks to me like a bunch of very un-critical "critical thinkers."

If you can name the logical fallacy you just committed you might gain some credibility.

Remember, being a critical thinker requires admitting when you make a logical fallacy.

Border Reiver · 29th October 2011, 01:09 PM

No one enters a "single piece of evidence" for anything. You look at the totality of the evidence. Your challenge is unscientific, and without a good basis in logic.

Robert Prey · 29th October 2011, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by matt.tansy

Oswald's rifle was stored in the Paine's garage before the assassination then was found in the TSBD.

Credit given for at least trying. Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser.

""The possibility of a rifle substitution was even admitted by Dallas police chief Jesse Curry. In 1976 in an interview with the Detroit News Curry agreed, ' It's more than possible' the rifle found in the depository could have been exchanged for the gun now in the national archieves. Curry said anyone wanting to substitute one suspected murder weapon for another 'could have gotten away with it at the time." Because no special precautions were taken to isolate the weapon as historic evidence."

From Crossfire by Jim Mars.

So you see, there is a slight problem of reasonable doubt with that one single piece of evidence but I give you credit for trying.

Robert Prey · 29th October 2011, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Border Reiver

No one enters a "single piece of evidence" for anything. You look at the totality of the evidence. Your challenge is unscientific, and without a good basis in logic.

The challenge is reasonable because there are thousands of single pieces of evidence and it is fair to ask, OK, Let's just discuss one, or one at at time which is what any jury would do.

timhau · 29th October 2011, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Credit given for at least trying. Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser.

Naturally, you have evidence that it was switched later, don't you?

Given that Dallas police detectives are infallible especially on a day when the POTUS is assassinated in their town, I have to question the competence of the conspiracy behind it all. They're nearly all-powerful but still amazingly sloppy. Kind of like the Bush administration -- they manage to pull off 9/11 almost perfectly, except that they leave traces that every YouTube researcher spots immediately.

Tomtomkent · 29th October 2011, 01:52 PM

So rather than describing why any of the sum total of evidence is (apparently) persuausive that LHO didn't act alone, or why any of the offered evidence is flawed (so that would be, for example, the Warren Commission, the rifle, the ballistics, etc) we are just offered a "not good enough" from the (subjective) opinion of one poster, with an illogical demand we base our own opinions on a single piece of evidence?

Ok, let's see if the same rules work in reverse: Dupply one single piece of evidence beyond doubt that LHO was NOT acting alone. Just one.

Walter Ego · 29th October 2011, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by timhau

And you can't even be bothered to show the mountaintop?

Mr. Prey has left and gone away. I wonder if he'll come back to see if anyone has accepted his "challenge" to his satisfaction.

I Ratant · 29th October 2011, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by timhau

Naturally, you have evidence that it was switched later, don't you?

Given that Dallas police detectives are infallible especially on a day when the POTUS is assassinated in their town, I have to question the competence of the conspiracy behind it all. They're nearly all-powerful but still amazingly sloppy. Kind of like the Bush administration -- they manage to pull off 9/11 almost perfectly, except that they leave traces that every YouTube researcher spots immediately.

.
Re the DPD ID of the rifle... as a Mannlicher-Carcano was relatively unknown, and the 1897 Mauser does resemble it, a casual glance might confuse the two.
The rifle carried from the TSBD was the Carcano. The empty clip is protruding from the bottom of the magazine well.
The Mauser is loaded with a stripper clip. The bullets are pressed into the top of the magazine from the clip. Closing the bolt pushes the clip off the action. There is no opening in the bottom of the Mauser magazine, as there is in the Carcano.
The Carcano clip is intended to fall out or be pushed out of the magazine when empty, and when a new clip is inserted. Due to the roughness of the walls in the magazine well, the clip will tend to stay in place until pushed out.

Walter Ego · 29th October 2011, 02:56 PM

This summary, which should not be considered complete or exhaustive, is adapted from David Von Pein's summary which can be read here. Vincent Bugliosi's summary of Oswald's Guilt was discussed on JREF here.

-------

Lee Harvey Oswald owned the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository on Friday afternoon, November 22, 1963.

Oswald owned the handgun that was shown to have been used in the murder of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit.

When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box.

Marina Oswald admits to having taken pictures of Lee with the rifle and handgun, which (all by itself) validates the "Backyard Photographs". But even if conspiracists wish to think that Marina is a liar, there's the fact that the HSCA [House Select Committee on Assassinations] panel of photo experts authenticated the backyard pictures.

Oswald's co-worker Buell Wesley Frazier who gave Oswald a ride to work on the morning of November 22nd, 1963, observed Oswald take a package into the Book Depository Building.

Oswald's claim of "curtain rods" within the package cannot be supported at all. His room needed no curtains, nor rods, and no such rods were ever found in the TSBD or at his residence at 1026 N. Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff.

Oswald was seen working on the Depository's sixth floor that morning.

Oswald's palmprint is found on his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle after the assassination.

No trace of any bullets/bullet fragments/bullet shells OTHER THAN THOSE COMING FROM OSWALD'S 6.5-MILLIMETER MANNLICHER-CARCANO RIFLE were discovered anywhere in Dealey Plaza, the limousine, the TSBD, Parkland Hospital, or in the victims.

Oswald, in flight from the TSBD, shoots and kills Dallas patrolman J.D. Tippit on 10th Street in the Dallas suburb of Oak Cliff. Multiple witnesses confirm it was Oswald who shot Officer Tippit.

Oswald, just days after acquiring his Carcano weapon, attempts to murder retired General Edwin Walker in Dallas, on April 10, 1963. Marina Oswald herself testifies that "Lee told me...he just shot Walker".

It was also proven that Oswald could have indeed travelled, in 90 seconds or less, the distance across the sixth floor of the TSBD and descended the four flights of stairs in time to have been seen by policeman Marrion L. Baker on the building's second floor.

Walter Ego · 29th October 2011, 03:10 PM

Addendum:

In this posting on alt.conspircy.jfk Von Pein asserts that the following two items alone prove Oswald's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Quote:

1.) Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle was positively the weapon that was used
to assassinate President Kennedy and wound Texas Governor John
Connally. (With said weapon being found inside the building where
Oswald was definitely located at 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963, when
both of these men were wounded by rifle fire.)

2.) Oswald was seen carrying a bulky paper package into his place of
employment at the Texas School Book Depository Building on the morning
of 11/22/63, and Oswald (beyond a reasonable doubt) lied about the
contents of this package to a co-worker.

Noztradamus · 29th October 2011, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by matt.tansy

Oswald's rifle was stored in the Paine's garage before the assassination then was found in the TSBD.

So... You are claiming the Paines were part of the conspiracy?

matt.tansy · 29th October 2011, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Credit given for at least trying. Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser.

"Swore"? No, some said it looked like a Mauser. The Mauser factoid has gone beyond ridiculous. You know very well that a Mauser looks almost identical to a Mannlicher-Carcano.

Quote:

""The possibility of a rifle substitution was even admitted by Dallas police chief Jesse Curry. In 1976 in an interview with the Detroit News Curry agreed, ' It's more than possible' the rifle found in the depository could have been exchanged for the gun now in the national archieves. Curry said anyone wanting to substitute one suspected murder weapon for another 'could have gotten away with it at the time." Because no special precautions were taken to isolate the weapon as historic evidence."

From Crossfire by Jim Mars.

So you see, there is a slight problem of reasonable doubt with that one single piece of evidence but I give you credit for trying.

Speculation does not equal evidence. You can speculate all day how a rifle could be switched but you still have to provide evidence it was switched.

But seriously, Jim Marrs? He is about as crazy as you can get without being institutionalized. Here he is being "interviewed" for the Camelot Project. I put "interviewed" in quotes because basically they sat him down in front of a camera and let him ramble for 75 minutes. I wouldn't subject my worst enemy to all 75 minutes but fortunately he is so crazy you can just click on a random spot and you'll being facepalming yourself within a minute.

If he's the best you got...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

I Ratant · 29th October 2011, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by matt.tansy

"Swore"? No, some said it looked like a Mauser. The Mauser factoid has gone beyond ridiculous. You know very well that a Mauser looks almost identical to a Mannlicher-Carcano.
...

.
Presuming what the Twinkie knows well... ?

He's just another script follower.

Ranb · 29th October 2011, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser.

Swore as in "sworn statement"? Evidence to support this claim?

Ranb

Noztradamus · 29th October 2011, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Re the DPD ID of the rifle... as a Mannlicher-Carcano was relatively unknown, and the 1897 Mauser does resemble it, a casual glance might confuse the two.
The rifle carried from the TSBD was the Carcano. The empty clip is protruding from the bottom of the magazine well.
The Mauser is loaded with a stripper clip. The bullets are pressed into the top of the magazine from the clip. Closing the bolt pushes the clip off the action. There is no opening in the bottom of the Mauser magazine, as there is in the Carcano.
The Carcano clip is intended to fall out or be pushed out of the magazine when empty, and when a new clip is inserted. Due to the roughness of the walls in the magazine well, the clip will tend to stay in place until pushed out.

The Mannlicher-Carcano (aka Mauser Paravincino) was designed by M. Carcano combining a modifed Mauser bolt with a Mannlicher magazine feed, so one really needs to see the magazine to note those details.

As found and not handled at the crime scene when those police officers noted "it looked like a Mauser" what they saw was http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1...ixthfloora.jpg

Yeah "as a Mannlicher-Carcano was relatively unknown, and the 1897 Mauser does resemble it, a casual glance might confuse the two."

Chaos · 29th October 2011, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

This summary, which should not be considered complete or exhaustive, is adapted from David Von Pein's summary which can be read here. Vincent Bugliosi's summary of Oswald's Guilt was discussed on JREF here.

-------

Lee Harvey Oswald owned the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository on Friday afternoon, November 22, 1963.

Oswald owned the handgun that was shown to have been used in the murder of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit.

When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box.

Marina Oswald admits to having taken pictures of Lee with the rifle and handgun, which (all by itself) validates the "Backyard Photographs". But even if conspiracists wish to think that Marina is a liar, there's the fact that the HSCA [House Select Committee on Assassinations] panel of photo experts authenticated the backyard pictures.

Oswald's co-worker Buell Wesley Frazier who gave Oswald a ride to work on the morning of November 22nd, 1963, observed Oswald take a package into the Book Depository Building.

Oswald's claim of "curtain rods" within the package cannot be supported at all. His room needed no curtains, nor rods, and no such rods were ever found in the TSBD or at his residence at 1026 N. Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff.

Oswald was seen working on the Depository's sixth floor that morning.

Oswald's palmprint is found on his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle after the assassination.

No trace of any bullets/bullet fragments/bullet shells OTHER THAN THOSE COMING FROM OSWALD'S 6.5-MILLIMETER MANNLICHER-CARCANO RIFLE were discovered anywhere in Dealey Plaza, the limousine, the TSBD, Parkland Hospital, or in the victims.

Oswald, in flight from the TSBD, shoots and kills Dallas patrolman J.D. Tippit on 10th Street in the Dallas suburb of Oak Cliff. Multiple witnesses confirm it was Oswald who shot Officer Tippit.

Oswald, just days after acquiring his Carcano weapon, attempts to murder retired General Edwin Walker in Dallas, on April 10, 1963. Marina Oswald herself testifies that "Lee told me...he just shot Walker".

It was also proven that Oswald could have indeed travelled, in 90 seconds or less, the distance across the sixth floor of the TSBD and descended the four flights of stairs in time to have been seen by policeman Marrion L. Baker on the building's second floor.

This is not "just one" piece of evidence, and thus not a valid response to RP´s challenge.

I Ratant · 29th October 2011, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Chaos

This is not "just one" piece of evidence, and thus not a valid response to RP´s challenge.

.
RP's "challenge" is ****.

Walter Ego · 29th October 2011, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Credit given for at least trying. Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser.

So you see, there is a slight problem of reasonable doubt with that one single piece of evidence but I give you credit for trying.

Actually, it was one single police officer, Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman, who admitted he was not a firearms expert, who thought Oswald's rife found on the 6th floor of the TSBD reassembled a Mauser (which it did, btw). Weitzman later explained his mistake.You're implying that every cop on the scene "swore" it was a Mauser.

How do we know it was a Mannlicher-Carcano that was found?

Quote:

The recovery of the rifle was filmed by Tom Alyea of WFAA-TV, and his footage shows the rifle to be a Mannlicher-Carcano. Here is one frame from his footage, and here is another. In fact, a Mannlisher-Carcano could easily be mistaken for a Mauser.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/firearms.htm

Is this long debunked old canard the best you can do or are you going to suggest that Alyea was, like the Dallas PD, "in on it" too?

Walter Ego · 29th October 2011, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
RP's "challenge" is ****.

Exactly, which is why I posted more that one piece of evidence for Oswald's guilt. The "challenge" is typical of conspiracy kooks. Check out this post from alt.conspiracy.jfk.

Quote:

On Oct 26, 7:25 am, "Richard Weed" <wee...@folk.net> wrote:

> Why are you still flogging the JFK case? Aren't JFK CTs kind of passé? Why
> not move on to 9/11 conspiracy theories? That's what the kids are into
> nowadays.

good of you to consider the CT question, we've got 45 specific
questions hereabouts considering JFK's assassination. Answer those
honestly then feel free to consider the assassination "passe." Carry
on!

At least RP only asked for one piece of evidence.

Robert Prey · 29th October 2011, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

Actually, it was one single police officer, Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman, who admitted he was not a firearms expert, who thought Oswald's rife found on the 6th floor of the TSBD reassembled a Mauser (which it did, btw). Weitzman later explained his mistake.You're implying that every cop on the scene "swore" it was a Mauser.

How do we know it was a Mannlicher-Carcano that was found?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/day1.jpg

Is this long debunked old canard the best you can do or are you going to suggest that Alyea was, like the Dallas PD, "in on it" too?

MacAdams statement that the two rifles are similar, and could the one be mistaken for the other undercuts the the certitude of the rifle ID as filmed, particularly since the Mauser was specifically identified in Weitzman's sworn statement as a German Mauser 7.65. How the former owner of a sporting goods store could make that specific claim when the Carcano presented as the rifle before the Warren Commission was clearly marked "Made Italy, 6.5" strains credulity.

"...We were in the northwest corner of the sixth floor when Deputy Boone
and myself spotted the rifle about the same time. This rifle was a 7.65
Mauser bolt action equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather
brownish-black sling on it The rifle was between some boxes near the
stairway. The time the rifle was found was 1:22 pm...... Seymour
Weitzman Subscribed and sworn to before me this 23 day of November A.D.
1963 Mary Rattan MARY RATTAN Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas. "

"Moreover, Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig was also there and later recalled the word "Mauser" inscribed in the metal of the gun. And Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone executed a sworn affidavit in which he described the rifle as a Mauser. As late as midnight of November 22, Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade told the media that the weapon found was a Mauser."

Whether this sworn statement was simply a mistake or whether it was an ID of a second discovered rifle, provides reasonable doubt nor does the rifle ID negate the possibility that the rifle was in fact a plant to frame the conspirators' designated patsy.

Robert Prey · 29th October 2011, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Border Reiver

"I shot JFK. I acted alone."

Here is the photo of the "Ghost" of Lee Harvey Oswald discovered in neglected Dallas PD evidence locker in 1995.

Oswald's Ghost.

The ghost speaks:

"This ghosted cut out of me in the Neely Backyard is prima facia evidence of an interim step to create a photographic forgery in order to convict me in the Court of Public Opinion."

I Ratant · 29th October 2011, 06:46 PM

The "ghost" image is known as to source and purpose..

kookbreaker · 29th October 2011, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Whether this sworn statement was simply a mistake or whether it was an ID of a second discovered rifle, provides reasonable doubt nor does the rifle ID negate the possibility that the rifle was in fact a plant to frame the conspirators' designated patsy.

The lack of physical evidence (i.e complete lack of a Mauser rifle, the complete lack of Mauser 7.65mm brass, etc.) kinda does just that. So this basically becomes the classic 'milk every misstatement by first responders' to the nth degree' of conspiracy nuttery.

Walter Ego · 29th October 2011, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Whether this sworn statement was simply a mistake or whether it was an ID of a second discovered rifle, provides reasonable doubt nor does the rifle ID negate the possibility that the rifle was in fact a plant to frame the conspirators' designated patsy.

So the conspirators planted a rifle that was not Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano and which could not be traced back to Oswald in order to frame him?

Do you realize that makes no sense at all?

Foolmewunz · 29th October 2011, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Here is the photo of the "Ghost" of Lee Harvey Oswald discovered in neglected Dallas PD evidence locker in 1995.

Oswald's Ghost.

The ghost speaks:

"This ghosted cut out of me in the Neely Backyard is prima facia evidence of an interim step to create a photographic forgery in order to convict me in the Court of Public Opinion."

Buzzzzzz! And yer outta here!

That's it? That's the single piece of evidence that's going to remove the scales from our eyes? And it took all of what? Three minutes for someone to find the actual story behind the photo? (I went a-googling but by the time I got back, I Ratant had already found it.)

Well, thanks for playing, Robert. Sorry you didn't even make it through the Warm-Up Round, but so you don't go away empty handed, we have some lovely parting gifts for you. Tell 'im about 'em, Don Pardo!

"Well thanks, Wink. Robert, will get a year's supply of Turtle Wax, for the auto owner who always wanted their car to look like a turtle, a gift certificate from Spiegel, and our home edition of "Trolling for Dollars".

angrysoba · 29th October 2011, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Here is the photo of the "Ghost" of Lee Harvey Oswald discovered in neglected Dallas PD evidence locker in 1995.

Oswald's Ghost.

The ghost speaks:

"This ghosted cut out of me in the Neely Backyard is prima facia evidence of an interim step to create a photographic forgery in order to convict me in the Court of Public Opinion."

I've not seen this before and OMG it makes me think that....

The photograph was quite obviously nothing like the "backyard photos" and clearly shows (or rather, if you had a clearer picture it would clearly show...) that they are taken at different times of the year or at a time completely removed from the Oswald picture.

The shadows are different and there seems to be much less foliage in the "ghost photograph". Presumably the trees were also photoshopped when Oswald was framed.

Foolmewunz · 29th October 2011, 09:20 PM

And... I'll have you note the white pickets in the fence or gate behind LHO. Now look at the picture of the cop and count those pickets and notice that the perspective has him standing a little farther away from the camera than the supposed Lee Harvey Oswald. In short, the cop in that picture was obviously told to move..... Back and to the left!

Cinches it for me!

Robert Prey · 30th October 2011, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Buzzzzzz! And yer outta here!

That's it? That's the single piece of evidence that's going to remove the scales from our eyes? And it took all of what? Three minutes for someone to find the actual story behind the photo? (I went a-googling but by the time I got back, I Ratant had already found it.)

Well, thanks for playing, Robert. Sorry you didn't even make it through the Warm-Up Round, but so you don't go away empty handed, we have some lovely parting gifts for you. Tell 'im about 'em, Don Pardo!

"Well thanks, Wink. Robert, will get a year's supply of Turtle Wax, for the auto owner who always wanted their car to look like a turtle, a gift certificate from Spiegel, and our home edition of "Trolling for Dollars".

Oh, no. The real evidence is yet to come. This is only positive evidence of an attempt to manufacture evidence.

Sceptic-PK · 30th October 2011, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

I think that's a fundamental aspect of all conspiracy theories, at least now that the internet will preserve our stupidity forever. The fact that these ideas can never be proven are what keep them around. They might fluctuate in popularity, but they never really go away. Even the Illuminati are still with us, haha.

Tomtomkent · 30th October 2011, 05:49 AM

Oh it is ervidence of manufactures evidence?

Or is it evidence that some conspiracy theorists have to manufacture the possibility of a cover up from the imperfections of data in the real world? Neither way is it possitive evidence as claimed.

kookbreaker · 30th October 2011, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Oh, no. The real evidence is yet to come. This is only positive evidence of an attempt to manufacture evidence.

When you get around to presenting any real evidence, please let us know. So far all you've brought to the table has fallen flat on its face.

Walter Ego · 30th October 2011, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Oh, no. The real evidence is yet to come. This is only positive evidence of an attempt to manufacture evidence.

You have so far presented evidence of nothing. You have also not answered my question about the misidentification of the gun found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

So the conspirators planted a rifle that was not Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano and which could not be traced back to Oswald in order to frame him?

When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box.

So the conspirators tried to frame Oswald by planting the wrong rife in the TSBD?

angrysoba · 30th October 2011, 07:13 AM

I've read bits of Bugliosi's book and was surprised by the evidence against Jim Garrison.

I had seen Oliver Stone's movie before and was mostly confused by it at a time when I was probably of the age to be most convinced by it.

I just wondered what this whole homosexual-gand thing meant. It seemed to trade on innuendo.

Bugliosi's book made things much clearer and I think it is a disgrace that most people who have ever heard of Clay Shaw will think that he was a conspirator in the death of JFK.

Mudcat · 30th October 2011, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

First of all, the absence of evidence is not evidence.

Reality objects to this statement. Despite what Religionists, Cryptionists, Conspirationists (that's you, by the way) and others like to say it's actually the other way around.

The absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. If something doesn't exist or didn't happen than you can't find evidence that it doesn't exist or didn't happen, therefore the only conclusion is that most likely it doesn't exist or didn't happen.

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Nonetheless, there is a mountain of evidence that points to a conspiracy.

Wonderful, maybe you would like to share a single piece of the evidence you consider most convincing? If there's really a mountain of it than this isn't asking much.

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

But hundreds of books have been written on the subject and this is only a small space.

Hundreds of books have been written on the subject of middle-earth and the characters associated with it, doesn't make it real.

Myron Proudfoot · 30th October 2011, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

This summary, which should not be considered complete or exhaustive, is adapted from David Von Pein's summary which can be read here. Vincent Bugliosi's summary of Oswald's Guilt was discussed on JREF here.

-------

Lee Harvey Oswald owned the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository on Friday afternoon, November 22, 1963.

Oswald owned the handgun that was shown to have been used in the murder of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit.

When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box.

Marina Oswald admits to having taken pictures of Lee with the rifle and handgun, which (all by itself) validates the "Backyard Photographs". But even if conspiracists wish to think that Marina is a liar, there's the fact that the HSCA [House Select Committee on Assassinations] panel of photo experts authenticated the backyard pictures.

Oswald's co-worker Buell Wesley Frazier who gave Oswald a ride to work on the morning of November 22nd, 1963, observed Oswald take a package into the Book Depository Building.

Oswald's claim of "curtain rods" within the package cannot be supported at all. His room needed no curtains, nor rods, and no such rods were ever found in the TSBD or at his residence at 1026 N. Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff.

Oswald was seen working on the Depository's sixth floor that morning.

Oswald's palmprint is found on his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle after the assassination.

No trace of any bullets/bullet fragments/bullet shells OTHER THAN THOSE COMING FROM OSWALD'S 6.5-MILLIMETER MANNLICHER-CARCANO RIFLE were discovered anywhere in Dealey Plaza, the limousine, the TSBD, Parkland Hospital, or in the victims.

Oswald, in flight from the TSBD, shoots and kills Dallas patrolman J.D. Tippit on 10th Street in the Dallas suburb of Oak Cliff. Multiple witnesses confirm it was Oswald who shot Officer Tippit.

Oswald, just days after acquiring his Carcano weapon, attempts to murder retired General Edwin Walker in Dallas, on April 10, 1963. Marina Oswald herself testifies that "Lee told me...he just shot Walker".

It was also proven that Oswald could have indeed travelled, in 90 seconds or less, the distance across the sixth floor of the TSBD and descended the four flights of stairs in time to have been seen by policeman Marrion L. Baker on the building's second floor.

Game, set, match. thanks....

I Ratant · 30th October 2011, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I've not seen this before and OMG it makes me think that....

The photograph was quite obviously nothing like the "backyard photos" and clearly shows (or rather, if you had a clearer picture it would clearly show...) that they are taken at different times of the year or at a time completely removed from the Oswald picture.

The shadows are different and there seems to be much less foliage in the "ghost photograph". Presumably the trees were also photoshopped when Oswald was framed.

.
Call the Dallas Police Department. I did.
They have an extensive archive on the event...

And it's all available, just cross their palms with silver.... the money, not the horse.

The photo of Detective Brown is just one of a series they took that day, in December following the assassination.
I have several more, but they're buried too deeply in the junk room to go look for.

29th October 2011, 12:59 PM	#42
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502	Originally Posted by tsig So you set up the challenge and get to decide what answers are right? No wonder you claim no one has met it. Oh, but you get to decide as well. The point is, for all the know-it-all Lone Nutter advocates of this board, no one has even attempted to offer up one single piece of evidence that LHO even fired a shot. Looks to me like a bunch of very un-critical "critical thinkers."
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502

29th October 2011, 01:02 PM	#43
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502	Originally Posted by I Ratant . The Warren Commission Report - ALL of it ! And Posner's examination of the event. The hundreds of fairy tales spewed out of the conspiracy sewer are just garbage. That which isn't bat-crap crazy... Weisberg, Livingstone... is only intended to make your money the CTwinky's money. Groden, Lane, Lifton.. Trask's "Pictures of the Pain" is a good source also. So, it appears neither can you submit one single piece of evidence. That makes four (Fail).
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502

29th October 2011, 01:05 PM	#44
Border Reiver Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 2,187	Originally Posted by angrysoba Never seen Oswald's ghost, no. What does Oswald's ghost say? "I shot JFK. I acted alone."
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29th October 2011, 01:05 PM	#45
matt.tansy Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Groton, CT Posts: 801	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Looks to me like a bunch of very un-critical "critical thinkers." If you can name the logical fallacy you just committed you might gain some credibility. Remember, being a critical thinker requires admitting when you make a logical fallacy.
	__________________ Enough with your Apollo is true by virtue of an appeal to reason... - Patrick1000 probably my bad for trying to back engineer the lunacy -jaydeehess

29th October 2011, 01:09 PM	#46
Border Reiver Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 2,187	No one enters a "single piece of evidence" for anything. You look at the totality of the evidence. Your challenge is unscientific, and without a good basis in logic.
	__________________ Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?

29th October 2011, 11:46 AM	#41
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,772	Originally Posted by Robert Prey I'll get to that, but I'd first like to prove that no one on this board can successfully answer my challenge. So far, three replies, but no cigar. So you set up the challenge and get to decide what answers are right? No wonder you claim no one has met it.

29th October 2011, 01:12 PM	#47
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502	Originally Posted by matt.tansy Oswald's rifle was stored in the Paine's garage before the assassination then was found in the TSBD. Credit given for at least trying. Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser. ""The possibility of a rifle substitution was even admitted by Dallas police chief Jesse Curry. In 1976 in an interview with the Detroit News Curry agreed, ' It's more than possible' the rifle found in the depository could have been exchanged for the gun now in the national archieves. Curry said anyone wanting to substitute one suspected murder weapon for another 'could have gotten away with it at the time." Because no special precautions were taken to isolate the weapon as historic evidence." From Crossfire by Jim Mars. So you see, there is a slight problem of reasonable doubt with that one single piece of evidence but I give you credit for trying.
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502

29th October 2011, 01:15 PM	#48
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502	Originally Posted by Border Reiver No one enters a "single piece of evidence" for anything. You look at the totality of the evidence. Your challenge is unscientific, and without a good basis in logic. The challenge is reasonable because there are thousands of single pieces of evidence and it is fair to ask, OK, Let's just discuss one, or one at at time which is what any jury would do.
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502

29th October 2011, 01:27 PM	#49
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,673	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Credit given for at least trying. Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser. Naturally, you have evidence that it was switched later, don't you? Given that Dallas police detectives are infallible especially on a day when the POTUS is assassinated in their town, I have to question the competence of the conspiracy behind it all. They're nearly all-powerful but still amazingly sloppy. Kind of like the Bush administration -- they manage to pull off 9/11 almost perfectly, except that they leave traces that every YouTube researcher spots immediately.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

29th October 2011, 01:52 PM	#50
Tomtomkent Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Kent, United Kingdom Posts: 5,218	So rather than describing why any of the sum total of evidence is (apparently) persuausive that LHO didn't act alone, or why any of the offered evidence is flawed (so that would be, for example, the Warren Commission, the rifle, the ballistics, etc) we are just offered a "not good enough" from the (subjective) opinion of one poster, with an illogical demand we base our own opinions on a single piece of evidence? Ok, let's see if the same rules work in reverse: Dupply one single piece of evidence beyond doubt that LHO was NOT acting alone. Just one.
	__________________ @tomhodden No animals were harmed in the making of this post.

29th October 2011, 02:17 PM	#51
Walter Ego Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,557	Originally Posted by timhau And you can't even be bothered to show the mountaintop? Mr. Prey has left and gone away. I wonder if he'll come back to see if anyone has accepted his "challenge" to his satisfaction.
	Last edited by Walter Ego; 29th October 2011 at 02:19 PM.

29th October 2011, 02:56 PM	#53
Walter Ego Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,557	A Summary of Oswald's Guilt This summary, which should not be considered complete or exhaustive, is adapted from David Von Pein's summary which can be read here. Vincent Bugliosi's summary of Oswald's Guilt was discussed on JREF here. ------- Lee Harvey Oswald owned the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository on Friday afternoon, November 22, 1963. Oswald owned the handgun that was shown to have been used in the murder of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit. When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box. Marina Oswald admits to having taken pictures of Lee with the rifle and handgun, which (all by itself) validates the "Backyard Photographs". But even if conspiracists wish to think that Marina is a liar, there's the fact that the HSCA [House Select Committee on Assassinations] panel of photo experts authenticated the backyard pictures. Oswald's co-worker Buell Wesley Frazier who gave Oswald a ride to work on the morning of November 22nd, 1963, observed Oswald take a package into the Book Depository Building. Oswald's claim of "curtain rods" within the package cannot be supported at all. His room needed no curtains, nor rods, and no such rods were ever found in the TSBD or at his residence at 1026 N. Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff. Oswald was seen working on the Depository's sixth floor that morning. Oswald's palmprint is found on his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle after the assassination. No trace of any bullets/bullet fragments/bullet shells OTHER THAN THOSE COMING FROM OSWALD'S 6.5-MILLIMETER MANNLICHER-CARCANO RIFLE were discovered anywhere in Dealey Plaza, the limousine, the TSBD, Parkland Hospital, or in the victims. Oswald, in flight from the TSBD, shoots and kills Dallas patrolman J.D. Tippit on 10th Street in the Dallas suburb of Oak Cliff. Multiple witnesses confirm it was Oswald who shot Officer Tippit. Oswald, just days after acquiring his Carcano weapon, attempts to murder retired General Edwin Walker in Dallas, on April 10, 1963. Marina Oswald herself testifies that "Lee told me...he just shot Walker". It was also proven that Oswald could have indeed travelled, in 90 seconds or less, the distance across the sixth floor of the TSBD and descended the four flights of stairs in time to have been seen by policeman Marrion L. Baker on the building's second floor.
	Last edited by Walter Ego; 29th October 2011 at 03:00 PM.

29th October 2011, 03:10 PM	#54
Walter Ego Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,557	Addendum: In this posting on alt.conspircy.jfk Von Pein asserts that the following two items alone prove Oswald's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Quote: 1.) Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle was positively the weapon that was used to assassinate President Kennedy and wound Texas Governor John Connally. (With said weapon being found inside the building where Oswald was definitely located at 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963, when both of these men were wounded by rifle fire.) 2.) Oswald was seen carrying a bulky paper package into his place of employment at the Texas School Book Depository Building on the morning of 11/22/63, and Oswald (beyond a reasonable doubt) lied about the contents of this package to a co-worker.
	Last edited by Walter Ego; 29th October 2011 at 03:12 PM.

29th October 2011, 03:12 PM	#55
Noztradamus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,852	Originally Posted by matt.tansy Oswald's rifle was stored in the Paine's garage before the assassination then was found in the TSBD. So... You are claiming the Paines were part of the conspiracy?
	__________________ The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.

29th October 2011, 03:20 PM	#57
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by matt.tansy "Swore"? No, some said it looked like a Mauser. The Mauser factoid has gone beyond ridiculous. You know very well that a Mauser looks almost identical to a Mannlicher-Carcano. ... . Presuming what the Twinkie knows well... ? He's just another script follower.

29th October 2011, 03:30 PM	#58
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,108	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser. Swore as in "sworn statement"? Evidence to support this claim? Ranb

29th October 2011, 04:21 PM	#59
Noztradamus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,852	Originally Posted by I Ratant . Re the DPD ID of the rifle... as a Mannlicher-Carcano was relatively unknown, and the 1897 Mauser does resemble it, a casual glance might confuse the two. The rifle carried from the TSBD was the Carcano. The empty clip is protruding from the bottom of the magazine well. The Mauser is loaded with a stripper clip. The bullets are pressed into the top of the magazine from the clip. Closing the bolt pushes the clip off the action. There is no opening in the bottom of the Mauser magazine, as there is in the Carcano. The Carcano clip is intended to fall out or be pushed out of the magazine when empty, and when a new clip is inserted. Due to the roughness of the walls in the magazine well, the clip will tend to stay in place until pushed out. The Mannlicher-Carcano (aka Mauser Paravincino) was designed by M. Carcano combining a modifed Mauser bolt with a Mannlicher magazine feed, so one really needs to see the magazine to note those details. As found and not handled at the crime scene when those police officers noted "it looked like a Mauser" what they saw was http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1...ixthfloora.jpg Yeah "as a Mannlicher-Carcano was relatively unknown, and the 1897 Mauser does resemble it, a casual glance might confuse the two."
	__________________ The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.

29th October 2011, 04:28 PM	#60
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,778	Originally Posted by Walter Ego This summary, which should not be considered complete or exhaustive, is adapted from David Von Pein's summary which can be read here. Vincent Bugliosi's summary of Oswald's Guilt was discussed on JREF here. ------- Lee Harvey Oswald owned the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository on Friday afternoon, November 22, 1963. Oswald owned the handgun that was shown to have been used in the murder of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit. When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box. Marina Oswald admits to having taken pictures of Lee with the rifle and handgun, which (all by itself) validates the "Backyard Photographs". But even if conspiracists wish to think that Marina is a liar, there's the fact that the HSCA [House Select Committee on Assassinations] panel of photo experts authenticated the backyard pictures. Oswald's co-worker Buell Wesley Frazier who gave Oswald a ride to work on the morning of November 22nd, 1963, observed Oswald take a package into the Book Depository Building. Oswald's claim of "curtain rods" within the package cannot be supported at all. His room needed no curtains, nor rods, and no such rods were ever found in the TSBD or at his residence at 1026 N. Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff. Oswald was seen working on the Depository's sixth floor that morning. Oswald's palmprint is found on his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle after the assassination. No trace of any bullets/bullet fragments/bullet shells OTHER THAN THOSE COMING FROM OSWALD'S 6.5-MILLIMETER MANNLICHER-CARCANO RIFLE were discovered anywhere in Dealey Plaza, the limousine, the TSBD, Parkland Hospital, or in the victims. Oswald, in flight from the TSBD, shoots and kills Dallas patrolman J.D. Tippit on 10th Street in the Dallas suburb of Oak Cliff. Multiple witnesses confirm it was Oswald who shot Officer Tippit. Oswald, just days after acquiring his Carcano weapon, attempts to murder retired General Edwin Walker in Dallas, on April 10, 1963. Marina Oswald herself testifies that "Lee told me...he just shot Walker". It was also proven that Oswald could have indeed travelled, in 90 seconds or less, the distance across the sixth floor of the TSBD and descended the four flights of stairs in time to have been seen by policeman Marrion L. Baker on the building's second floor. This is not "just one" piece of evidence, and thus not a valid response to RP´s challenge.
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

29th October 2011, 04:38 PM	#61
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Chaos This is not "just one" piece of evidence, and thus not a valid response to RP´s challenge. . RP's "challenge" is ****.

29th October 2011, 04:51 PM	#62
Walter Ego Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,557	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Credit given for at least trying. Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser. So you see, there is a slight problem of reasonable doubt with that one single piece of evidence but I give you credit for trying. Actually, it was one single police officer, Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman, who admitted he was not a firearms expert, who thought Oswald's rife found on the 6th floor of the TSBD reassembled a Mauser (which it did, btw). Weitzman later explained his mistake.You're implying that every cop on the scene "swore" it was a Mauser. How do we know it was a Mannlicher-Carcano that was found? Quote: The recovery of the rifle was filmed by Tom Alyea of WFAA-TV, and his footage shows the rifle to be a Mannlicher-Carcano. Here is one frame from his footage, and here is another. In fact, a Mannlisher-Carcano could easily be mistaken for a Mauser. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/firearms.htm Is this long debunked old canard the best you can do or are you going to suggest that Alyea was, like the Dallas PD, "in on it" too?
	Last edited by Walter Ego; 29th October 2011 at 04:54 PM.

29th October 2011, 05:11 PM	#63
Walter Ego Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,557	Originally Posted by I Ratant . RP's "challenge" is ***. Exactly, which is why I posted more that one piece of evidence for Oswald's guilt. The "challenge" is typical of conspiracy kooks. Check out this post from alt.conspiracy.jfk. Quote: On Oct 26, 7:25 am, "Richard Weed" <wee...@folk.net> wrote: > Why are you still flogging the JFK case? Aren't JFK CTs kind of passé? Why > not move on to 9/11 conspiracy theories? That's what the kids are into > nowadays. good of you to consider the CT question, we've got 45 specific questions hereabouts considering JFK's assassination. Answer those honestly then feel free to consider the assassination "passe." Carry on! At least RP only asked for one* piece of evidence.
	Last edited by Walter Ego; 29th October 2011 at 05:14 PM.

29th October 2011, 06:01 PM	#64
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502	Originally Posted by Walter Ego Actually, it was one single police officer, Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman, who admitted he was not a firearms expert, who thought Oswald's rife found on the 6th floor of the TSBD reassembled a Mauser (which it did, btw). Weitzman later explained his mistake.You're implying that every cop on the scene "swore" it was a Mauser. How do we know it was a Mannlicher-Carcano that was found? http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/day1.jpg Is this long debunked old canard the best you can do or are you going to suggest that Alyea was, like the Dallas PD, "in on it" too? MacAdams statement that the two rifles are similar, and could the one be mistaken for the other undercuts the the certitude of the rifle ID as filmed, particularly since the Mauser was specifically identified in Weitzman's sworn statement as a German Mauser 7.65. How the former owner of a sporting goods store could make that specific claim when the Carcano presented as the rifle before the Warren Commission was clearly marked "Made Italy, 6.5" strains credulity. "...We were in the northwest corner of the sixth floor when Deputy Boone and myself spotted the rifle about the same time. This rifle was a 7.65 Mauser bolt action equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather brownish-black sling on it The rifle was between some boxes near the stairway. The time the rifle was found was 1:22 pm...... Seymour Weitzman Subscribed and sworn to before me this 23 day of November A.D. 1963 Mary Rattan MARY RATTAN Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas. " "Moreover, Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig was also there and later recalled the word "Mauser" inscribed in the metal of the gun. And Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone executed a sworn affidavit in which he described the rifle as a Mauser. As late as midnight of November 22, Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade told the media that the weapon found was a Mauser." Whether this sworn statement was simply a mistake or whether it was an ID of a second discovered rifle, provides reasonable doubt nor does the rifle ID negate the possibility that the rifle was in fact a plant to frame the conspirators' designated patsy.
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502	Last edited by Robert Prey; 29th October 2011 at 06:05 PM.

29th October 2011, 06:16 PM	#65
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502	Oswald's Ghost Speaks Originally Posted by Border Reiver "I shot JFK. I acted alone." Here is the photo of the "Ghost" of Lee Harvey Oswald discovered in neglected Dallas PD evidence locker in 1995. Oswald's Ghost. The ghost speaks: "This ghosted cut out of me in the Neely Backyard is prima facia evidence of an interim step to create a photographic forgery in order to convict me in the Court of Public Opinion."
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502	Last edited by Robert Prey; 29th October 2011 at 06:18 PM.

29th October 2011, 07:05 PM	#67
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,178	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Whether this sworn statement was simply a mistake or whether it was an ID of a second discovered rifle, provides reasonable doubt nor does the rifle ID negate the possibility that the rifle was in fact a plant to frame the conspirators' designated patsy. The lack of physical evidence (i.e complete lack of a Mauser rifle, the complete lack of Mauser 7.65mm brass, etc.) kinda does just that. So this basically becomes the classic 'milk every misstatement by first responders' to the nth degree' of conspiracy nuttery.
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,178	__________________ Thanks for helping me win Best Children's Gifts and Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011 & 2012! Spectrum Scientifics - My store - Google it people!

29th October 2011, 07:15 PM	#68
Walter Ego Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,557	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Whether this sworn statement was simply a mistake or whether it was an ID of a second discovered rifle, provides reasonable doubt nor does the rifle ID negate the possibility that the rifle was in fact a plant to frame the conspirators' designated patsy. So the conspirators planted a rifle that was not Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano and which could not be traced back to Oswald in order to frame him? Do you realize that makes no sense at all?

29th October 2011, 07:24 PM	#69
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,520	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Here is the photo of the "Ghost" of Lee Harvey Oswald discovered in neglected Dallas PD evidence locker in 1995. Oswald's Ghost. The ghost speaks: "This ghosted cut out of me in the Neely Backyard is prima facia evidence of an interim step to create a photographic forgery in order to convict me in the Court of Public Opinion." Buzzzzzz! And yer outta here! That's it? That's the single piece of evidence that's going to remove the scales from our eyes? And it took all of what? Three minutes for someone to find the actual story behind the photo? (I went a-googling but by the time I got back, I Ratant had already found it.) Well, thanks for playing, Robert. Sorry you didn't even make it through the Warm-Up Round, but so you don't go away empty handed, we have some lovely parting gifts for you. Tell 'im about 'em, Don Pardo! "Well thanks, Wink. Robert, will get a year's supply of Turtle Wax, for the auto owner who always wanted their car to look like a turtle, a gift certificate from Spiegel, and our home edition of "Trolling for Dollars".
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele Don't you wish someone had slapped baby Hitler really really hard? [i] Dr. Buzzo 02/13 [i]

29th October 2011, 08:44 PM	#70
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,544	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Here is the photo of the "Ghost" of Lee Harvey Oswald discovered in neglected Dallas PD evidence locker in 1995. Oswald's Ghost. The ghost speaks: "This ghosted cut out of me in the Neely Backyard is prima facia evidence of an interim step to create a photographic forgery in order to convict me in the Court of Public Opinion." I've not seen this before and OMG it makes me think that.... The photograph was quite obviously nothing like the "backyard photos" and clearly shows (or rather, if you had a clearer picture it would clearly show...) that they are taken at different times of the year or at a time completely removed from the Oswald picture. The shadows are different and there seems to be much less foliage in the "ghost photograph". Presumably the trees were also photoshopped when Oswald was framed.

29th October 2011, 09:20 PM	#71
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,520	And... I'll have you note the white pickets in the fence or gate behind LHO. Now look at the picture of the cop and count those pickets and notice that the perspective has him standing a little farther away from the camera than the supposed Lee Harvey Oswald. In short, the cop in that picture was obviously told to move..... Back and to the left! Cinches it for me!
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele Don't you wish someone had slapped baby Hitler really really hard? [i] Dr. Buzzo 02/13 [i]

30th October 2011, 03:35 AM	#72
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz Buzzzzzz! And yer outta here! That's it? That's the single piece of evidence that's going to remove the scales from our eyes? And it took all of what? Three minutes for someone to find the actual story behind the photo? (I went a-googling but by the time I got back, I Ratant had already found it.) Well, thanks for playing, Robert. Sorry you didn't even make it through the Warm-Up Round, but so you don't go away empty handed, we have some lovely parting gifts for you. Tell 'im about 'em, Don Pardo! "Well thanks, Wink. Robert, will get a year's supply of Turtle Wax, for the auto owner who always wanted their car to look like a turtle, a gift certificate from Spiegel, and our home edition of "Trolling for Dollars". Oh, no. The real evidence is yet to come. This is only positive evidence of an attempt to manufacture evidence.
Robert Prey Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,502

30th October 2011, 04:17 AM	#73
Sceptic-PK Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,404	Originally Posted by Walter Ego JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends I think that's a fundamental aspect of all conspiracy theories, at least now that the internet will preserve our stupidity forever. The fact that these ideas can never be proven are what keep them around. They might fluctuate in popularity, but they never really go away. Even the Illuminati are still with us, haha.

30th October 2011, 05:49 AM	#74
Tomtomkent Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Kent, United Kingdom Posts: 5,218	Oh it is ervidence of manufactures evidence? Or is it evidence that some conspiracy theorists have to manufacture the possibility of a cover up from the imperfections of data in the real world? Neither way is it possitive evidence as claimed.
	__________________ @tomhodden No animals were harmed in the making of this post.

30th October 2011, 06:37 AM	#75
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,178	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Oh, no. The real evidence is yet to come. This is only positive evidence of an attempt to manufacture evidence. When you get around to presenting any real evidence, please let us know. So far all you've brought to the table has fallen flat on its face.
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,178	__________________ Thanks for helping me win Best Children's Gifts and Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011 & 2012! Spectrum Scientifics - My store - Google it people!

30th October 2011, 06:46 AM	#76
Walter Ego Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,557	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Oh, no. The real evidence is yet to come. This is only positive evidence of an attempt to manufacture evidence. You have so far presented evidence of nothing. You have also not answered my question about the misidentification of the gun found on the 6th floor of the TSBD. Originally Posted by Walter Ego So the conspirators planted a rifle that was not Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano and which could not be traced back to Oswald in order to frame him? When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box. So the conspirators tried to frame Oswald by planting the wrong rife in the TSBD?
	Last edited by Walter Ego; 30th October 2011 at 06:48 AM.

30th October 2011, 07:13 AM	#77
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,544	I've read bits of Bugliosi's book and was surprised by the evidence against Jim Garrison. I had seen Oliver Stone's movie before and was mostly confused by it at a time when I was probably of the age to be most convinced by it. I just wondered what this whole homosexual-gand thing meant. It seemed to trade on innuendo. Bugliosi's book made things much clearer and I think it is a disgrace that most people who have ever heard of Clay Shaw will think that he was a conspirator in the death of JFK.

30th October 2011, 07:23 AM	#78
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,687	Originally Posted by Robert Prey First of all, the absence of evidence is not evidence. Reality objects to this statement. Despite what Religionists, Cryptionists, Conspirationists (that's you, by the way) and others like to say it's actually the other way around. The absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. If something doesn't exist or didn't happen than you *can't* find evidence that it doesn't exist or didn't happen, therefore the only conclusion is that most likely it doesn't exist or didn't happen. Originally Posted by Robert Prey Nonetheless, there is a mountain of evidence that points to a conspiracy. Wonderful, maybe you would like to share a single piece of the evidence you consider most convincing? If there's really a mountain of it than this isn't asking much. Originally Posted by Robert Prey But hundreds of books have been written on the subject and this is only a small space. Hundreds of books have been written on the subject of middle-earth and the characters associated with it, doesn't make it real.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven. Last edited by Mudcat; 30th October 2011 at 07:40 AM.