JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

So rather than describing why any of the sum total of evidence is (apparently) persuausive that LHO didn't act alone, or why any of the offered evidence is flawed (so that would be, for example, the Warren Commission, the rifle, the ballistics, etc) we are just offered a "not good enough" from the (subjective) opinion of one poster, with an illogical demand we base our own opinions on a single piece of evidence?

Ok, let's see if the same rules work in reverse: Dupply one single piece of evidence beyond doubt that LHO was NOT acting alone. Just one.

.
I recall seeing a diagram of Dealey Plaza with -all- the shooters... 78 of them, positioned and the trajectories of their bullets.
It's amazing there were so few hits on JFK, and only one other person in the car!

[I Ratant]

Take the motorcade route...
Look around...
http://www.vpike.com/?e=32.779415,-96.808022:293.02

[catsmate1]

Originally Posted by tsig

So you set up the challenge and get to decide what answers are right? No wonder you claim no one has met it.

Meh, it's par for the course with woosters.

[Walter Ego]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I've read bits of Bugliosi's book and was surprised by the evidence against Jim Garrison.

I had seen Oliver Stone's movie before and was mostly confused by it at a time when I was probably of the age to be most convinced by it.

I just wondered what this whole homosexual-gand thing meant. It seemed to trade on innuendo.

Bugliosi's book made things much clearer and I think it is a disgrace that most people who have ever heard of Clay Shaw will think that he was a conspirator in the death of JFK.

JFK Assassination A Homosexual Thrill Killing?

"[Journalist James] Phelan had written a favorable article about Jim Garrison in the Saturday Evening Post, and thus Garrison was willing to give Phelan an "exclusive" story, outlining the DA's "findings" about the assassination. Garrison arranged to meet Phelan in Las Vegas, and tell him about his case against Clay Shaw." (source)

Quote:

In an effort to get Garrison's story into focus, I asked him the motive of the Kennedy conspirators. He told me that the murder at Dallas had been a homosexual plot.

"They had the same motive as Loeb and Leopold, when they murdered Bobbie Franks in Chicago back in the twenties," Garrison said. "It was a homosexual thrill-killing, plus the excitement of getting away with a perfect crime. John Kennedy was everything that Dave Ferrie was not — a successful, handsome, popular, wealthy, virile man. You can just picture the charge Ferrie got out of plotting his death."

I asked how he had learned that the murder was a homosexual plot.

"Look at the people involved," Garrison said. "Dave Ferrie, homosexual. Clay Shaw, homosexual. Jack Ruby, homosexual."

"Ruby was a homosexual?"

"Sure, we dug that out," Garrison said. "His homosexual nickname was Pinkie. That's three. Then there was Lee Harvey Oswald."

But Oswald was married and had two children, I pointed out.

"A switch-hitter who couldn't satisfy his wife," Garrison said. "That's all in the Warren Report." He named two more "key figures" whom he labeled homosexual.

"That's six homosexuals in the plot," Garrison said. "One or maybe two, okay. But all six homosexual? How far can you stretch the arm of coincidence?"

I told him that was an intriguing theory, but it wasn't evidence he could present to a court.

James Phelan, Scandals, Scamps, and Scoundrels, pp. 150-151

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

You have so far presented evidence of nothing. You have also not answered my question about the misidentification of the gun found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.



When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box.

So the conspirators tried to frame Oswald by planting the wrong rife in the TSBD?

Oh, there was indeed an M/C rifle discovered in the TSBD. But not on the 6th floor, but on a lower floor, the 4th or 5th floor, which would introduce a 2nd possible weapon, and possibly a 2nd shooter. This whole business of the positive ID of an M/C rifle in view of 3 detectives who were able to examine it closely and read what was or was not printed on the rifle and swearing it to be a Mauser 7.65 make this crucial piece of evidence at the least very fishy. Just like all the rest of the so called "evidence." I still await one more serious person to meet the challenge of "best evidence." If the falsely ID'd rifle is all you guys got, maybe you should all just go home.

[I Ratant]

Reading your crap reminds me of the Ron White show, "You can't fix stupid".
You birthers, truthers, JFK twinkies... are invincibly ignorant, and can't be cured.

[Robert Prey]

[quote=I Ratant;7715499]Reading your crap reminds me of the Ron White show, "You can't fix stupid".
You birthers, truthers, JFK twinkies... are invincibly ignorant, and can't be cured.[/QUOTE

So that's all you got, eh?

[Walter Ego]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Oh, there was indeed an M/C rifle discovered in the TSBD. But not on the 6th floor, but on a lower floor, the 4th or 5th floor, which would introduce a 2nd possible weapon, and possibly a 2nd shooter. This whole business of the positive ID of an M/C rifle in view of 3 detectives who were able to examine it closely and read what was or was not printed on the rifle and swearing it to be a Mauser 7.65 make this crucial piece of evidence at the least very fishy. Just like all the rest of the so called "evidence."

Do you have a source for your claim that Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was not found on the 6th floor of the TSBD? Keep in mind you are posting on a skeptical forum and we don't accept mere assertion as fact. You have not so far provided a single citation for any thing you have quoted or asserted (as in the case above).

You know of course that Tom Alyea filmed the discovery of Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano (with Oswald's palm and fingerprints on it, btw) on the 6th floor, not the 4th or 5th floor as you assert.

Quote:

I still await one more serious person to meet the challenge of "best evidence." If the falsely ID'd rifle is all you guys got, maybe you should all just go home.

Excuse me but it was you brought up the debunked canard of the falsely ID'd rifle, not anyone else, and so far you haven't proven anything about why the false ID is important. And, as stated previously by more than one person, your "challenge" is BS and we are not playing your little game.

And it is you who came here to show up the debunkers, not the other way around. You have been posting for less than two months and most of us have been here for years. It's time to put up or shut up and if you can't it is you who should "go home," not anyone else.

My sincere advise is for you to declare victory and then make a face-saving retreat. You have so far proven nothing and convinced nobody.

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box.

So the conspirators tried to frame Oswald by planting the wrong rife in the TSBD?

So, Oswald, wanting to be a big man, Known throughout history for shooting the President and all, wanted to make sure they could arrest him so he could get "credit." So, instead of simply buying rifle over the counter, he mail ordered one so they could trace it to his fake ID of Hidel. Why the fake ID? Why so it would look like he really wanted to hide his real ID, eh? And so when off he goes to shoot the President, he makes sure he has the fake ID on him, so that there was no question that he was indeed the big man, who bought the rifle, with a fake ID. So, he succeeded in all this, but then when arrested, inexplicably claimed he didn't shoot anybody. Made perfect sense to the Warren Commission. And apparently to all you guys as well.

[Walter Ego]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Originally Posted by I Ratant

Reading your crap reminds me of the Ron White show, "You can't fix stupid".
You birthers, truthers, JFK twinkies... are invincibly ignorant, and can't be cured.

So that's all you got, eh?

We still are waiting to see what you've "got." (Properly sourced, please.)

Believe or not, there are people here, myself included, who could be convinced that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK if you could come up with some... you know like... evidence.

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Oh, there was indeed an M/C rifle discovered in the TSBD. But not on the 6th floor, but on a lower floor, the 4th or 5th floor,

As has been pointed out, there is film of the rifle being found.

Quote:

which would introduce a 2nd possible weapon, and possibly a 2nd shooter.

Except for the complete lack of a 2nd weapon, 2nd set of brass, or the 'minor' detail that Bonnie Ray Williams and Harold Norman were actually on the 5th floor when the shots were fired.

Quote:

This whole business of the positive ID of an M/C rifle in view of 3 detectives who were able to examine it closely and read what was or was not printed on the rifle and swearing it to be a Mauser 7.65 make this crucial piece of evidence at the least very fishy.

All 3 detectives swore to this being a Mauser? I see one sworn deposition from a detective who admits he was wrong, was not an expert in weapon identification. Not impressive

Quote:

Just like all the rest of the so called "evidence." I still await one more serious person to meet the challenge of "best evidence."

Its already been done. Your lame dodging and evading is not convincing.

Quote:

If the falsely ID'd rifle is all you guys got, maybe you should all just go home.

Quit the chest-beating. All your argument boils down to is: "A detective who was not an expert in firearms misidentifies a rifle with another model that was very similar in appearance? I DON'T THINK SO". That is not very impressive evidence.

[bynmdsue]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

So, Oswald, wanting to be a big man, Known throughout history for shooting the President and all, wanted to make sure they could arrest him so he could get "credit." So, instead of simply buying rifle over the counter, he mail ordered one so they could trace it to his fake ID of Hidel. Why the fake ID? Why so it would look like he really wanted to hide his real ID, eh? And so when off he goes to shoot the President, he makes sure he has the fake ID on him, so that there was no question that he was indeed the big man, who bought the rifle, with a fake ID. So, he succeeded in all this, but then when arrested, inexplicably claimed he didn't shoot anybody. Made perfect sense to the Warren Commission. And apparently to all you guys as well.

Oswald had the President's murder planned in March of '63?

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

So, Oswald, wanting to be a big man, Known throughout history for shooting the President and all, wanted to make sure they could arrest him so he could get "credit." So, instead of simply buying rifle over the counter, he mail ordered one so they could trace it to his fake ID of Hidel. Why the fake ID? Why so it would look like he really wanted to hide his real ID, eh? And so when off he goes to shoot the President, he makes sure he has the fake ID on him, so that there was no question that he was indeed the big man, who bought the rifle, with a fake ID. So, he succeeded in all this, but then when arrested, inexplicably claimed he didn't shoot anybody. Made perfect sense to the Warren Commission. And apparently to all you guys as well.

You seem to be mistaking Oswald's desires (which are apparent when you read about his life) with glory-hounding and credit seeking. Oswald viewed himself as some kind of revolutionary, and to him that meant arming himself and having a fake ID to 'game' the system as it was. It makes perfect sense if you look at Oswald's antics and actions well prior to the day of the assassination.

BTW, this is not evidence, this is your own incredulity. You might as well be saying "fire weakening steel? I DON'T THINK SO!"

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

Do you have a source for your claim that Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was not found on the 6th floor of the TSBD? Keep in mind you are posting on a skeptical forum and we don't accept mere assertion as fact. You have not so far provided a single citation for any thing you have claimed.

You know of course that Tom Alyea filmed the discovery of Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano (with Oswald's palm and fingerprints on it, btw) on the 6th floor, not the 4th or 5th floor as you assert.




Excuse me but it was you brought up the debunked canard of the falsely ID'd rifle, not anyone else, and so far you haven't proven anything about why the false ID is important. And, as stated previously by more than one person, your "challenge" is BS and we are not playing your little game.

And it is you who came here to show up the debunkers, not the other way around. You have been posting for less than two months and most of us have been here for years. It's time to put up or shut up and if you can't it is you who should "go home," not anyone else.

My sincere advise is for you to declare victory and then make a face-saving retreat. You have so far proven nothing and convinced nobody.

OMG, so much brainwash; So little time. Ray and Mary LaFontaine, authors of 'Oswald Talked" cited a phone conversation with agent Frank Ellsworth who confirmed the finding of the MC rifle on the 4th or 5th floor.
"I remember we talked about it, and figured that he must have run out for the stairwell and dropped it as he was running downstairs." -- P.374

Nor was there any readable palm print or finger print on the rifle. Nor was there any record of the person who picked up the rifle at the Post Office

As for any convincing, I'm reminded of the saying, "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

As has been pointed out, there is film of the rifle being found.



Except for the complete lack of a 2nd weapon, 2nd set of brass, or the 'minor' detail that Bonnie Ray Williams and Harold Norman were actually on the 5th floor when the shots were fired.



All 3 detectives swore to this being a Mauser? I see one sworn deposition from a detective who admits he was wrong, was not an expert in weapon identification. Not impressive



Its already been done. Your lame dodging and evading is not convincing.



Quit the chest-beating. All your argument boils down to is: "A detective who was not an expert in firearms misidentifies a rifle with another model that was very similar in appearance? I DON'T THINK SO". That is not very impressive evidence.

... and when an examination of the rifle that clearly had the imprint: Made Italy, Cal 6.5, he concluded it must have been a German Mauser, 7.65, eh?

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by bynmdsue

Oswald had the President's murder planned in March of '63?

Who says Oswald murdered the President? Not me. I'm trying to get all you guys to give up some evidence that he even fired a shot.

[BStrong]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Oh, there was indeed an M/C rifle discovered in the TSBD. But not on the 6th floor, but on a lower floor, the 4th or 5th floor, which would introduce a 2nd possible weapon, and possibly a 2nd shooter. This whole business of the positive ID of an M/C rifle in view of 3 detectives who were able to examine it closely and read what was or was not printed on the rifle and swearing it to be a Mauser 7.65 make this crucial piece of evidence at the least very fishy. Just like all the rest of the so called "evidence." I still await one more serious person to meet the challenge of "best evidence." If the falsely ID'd rifle is all you guys got, maybe you should all just go home.

Sounds like the old Robert Murrow story.

Being Sicilian, and having my family landing in New Orleans I have my own opinions on the subject, but the Warren report still stands.

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

All 3 detectives swore to this being a Mauser? I see one sworn deposition from a detective who admits he was wrong, was not an expert in weapon identification. Not impressive.

Weitzman never admitted he was wrong. Moreover the Warren Commission refused to show him the rifle and ask him if that was the weapon he found. But Det. Boone was shown the rifle and refused to confirm it was the same weapon. And Det. Roger Craig, to his dying day insisted it was a Mauser 7.65 and said he read the words from right off the rifle. Craig was soon fired from the DPd, had several attempts on his life, and eventually, allegedly, committed "suicide."

[Robert Prey]

[quote=Walter Ego;7715700]We still are waiting to see what you've "got." (Properly sourced, please.)

Believe or not, there are people here, myself included, who could be convinced that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK i you could come up with some... you know like... evidence.[/QUOTE

It's coming, oh ye of little faith.

[Walter Ego]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

So, Oswald, wanting to be a big man, Known throughout history for shooting the President and all, wanted to make sure they could arrest him so he could get "credit." So, instead of simply buying rifle over the counter, he mail ordered one so they could trace it to his fake ID of Hidel. Why the fake ID? Why so it would look like he really wanted to hide his real ID, eh? And so when off he goes to shoot the President, he makes sure he has the fake ID on him, so that there was no question that he was indeed the big man, who bought the rifle, with a fake ID. So, he succeeded in all this, but then when arrested, inexplicably claimed he didn't shoot anybody. Made perfect sense to the Warren Commission. And apparently to all you guys as well.

I will treat this sneering response with more respect that it deserves.

Oswald not only used the A.J. Hidell (not "Hidel") alias to order the Mannlicher-Carcano and the handgun, he used it in New Orleans to make it look like there was more than one member of his unofficial Fair Play for Cuba Committee by having Marina sign a membership card in the name of Hidell as chapter president and as the alternate name on the New Orleans post office box he rented in June 1963.

Oswald did have an inflated sense of his own importance but he obviously didn't want to be arrested otherwise why did he haul ass from the crime scene and kill Officer Tibbit? Oswald not only denied shooting anyone when questioned by the DPD, he told consistently provable lies when the questions turned to his ownership of the assassination rifle.

(And, interestingly, when asked to give any residential addresses he may have had in Dallas, he gave every address but he significantly left out 214 W. Neely St. where the backyard photos were taken of him with the rifle and the handgun that killed Tibbit.)

Oswald's fleeing Dealey Plaza, killing Tibbit, lying about his false ID and ownership of the Mannlicher-Carcano and concealing the fact of his residence at 214 W. Neely from the police are in fact evidence of what in legal terms is called "consciousness of guilt." So Oswald's denial of the Hidell alias, far from proving his innocence, was another indication of his guilt.

Do you have have documented facts that Oswald was not the assassin? We are still waiting to hear them.

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Weitzman never admitted he was wrong.

Except where he did

Quote:

Moreover the Warren Commission refused to show him the rifle and ask him if that was the weapon he found.

Not really important.

Quote:

But Det. Boone was shown the rifle and refused to confirm it was the same weapon.

and? Where was this Mauser? Boone did not find the rifle.

Quote:

And Det. Roger Craig, to his dying day insisted it was a Mauser 7.65 and said he read the words from right off the rifle. Craig was soon fired from the DPd, had several attempts on his life, and eventually, allegedly, committed "suicide."

Craig told many tales. I am not impressed. Read this and his contradictory statements: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/craig.htm

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

... and when an examination of the rifle that clearly had the imprint: Made Italy, Cal 6.5, he concluded it must have been a German Mauser, 7.65, eh?

The imprinting on a rifle is not a neon sign. It gets placed in many areas, and more importantly it can get worn.

It doesn't exactly stand out. This is a shot of a Carcano taken in bright sunlight:

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...arcano/034.jpg

Again, not impressive. You seem to think people's first instinct was to properly identify the rifle. Their instinct was more likely to get it to police headquarters.

[Walter Ego]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Nor was there any readable palm print or finger print on the rifle.

Wrong!

Quote:

The Prints by Gary Savage. Excerpted from JFK: First Day Evidence.

[Dallas Police Crime Lab Detective R. W. (Rusty) Livingston] has copies of five photographs taken by Lieutenant Day made directly from the original Dallas police negatives which show latent fingerprints found on the trigger housing of the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle from the sixth floor of the Depository. The fingerprints are visible to the naked eye even before enhancement. Each of the fingerprint photographs was taken with a light shining on the trigger housing from different directions in order to produce various contrasts of the fingerprints. This was an attempt by Lieutenant Day to bring out as much of the ridge detail as possible in order to do a (comparison for identification of whoever had previously handled the rifle (the shooter). Fingerprint ridges are the lines running around each finger from one side of the nail to the other. The raised ridges are unique to every person.

The rifle was completely covered with black fingerprint powder by Lieutenant Day in order to check for prints after he had returned to the Crime Lab around dusk on the evening of the assassination.

The fingerprint photographs which Rusty retained copies of should not be confused with the palm print that Lieutenant Day found underneath the barrel of the disassembled rifle. This evidence is in addition to that. Many studying the assassination have confused the issue of what prints were found on the rifle as well as where and who actually found them.

http://www.jfk-online.com/prints.html

This is known as a citation, btw, something you're still having problems providing us with. Notice the little linky at the end? That allows you to check the source of the quote and proves I didn't just extract it from my ass. When you c&p a quote (which you have been doing), it's just as easy to c&p the URL too. Try it sometimes.

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Nor was there any readable palm print or finger print on the rifle.

Umm, yeah. They got a palm print.

Quote:

Nor was there any record of the person who picked up the rifle at the Post Office

Well it sure seemed to end up in Oswald's hands. He certainly sent the order for it and it went to the PO Box he rented in Hidell's name.

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

The imprinting on a rifle is not a neon sign. It gets placed in many areas, and more importantly it can get worn.

It doesn't exactly stand out. This is a shot of a Carcano taken in bright sunlight:

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...arcano/034.jpg

Again, not impressive. You seem to think people's first instinct was to properly identify the rifle. Their instinct was more likely to get it to police headquarters.

.
Two more.
One is one of Howard Donahue's (Mortal Error author) which he sent me years back, and the other is my M-C.
Each is different.
.

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Weitzman never admitted he was wrong.

Debunked by Kookbreaker

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Moreover the Warren Commission refused to show him the rifle and ask him if that was the weapon he found.

Think about this statement for a second. How do you ask someone if a specific object is the specific object they supposedly found without showing them the specific object?

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

And Det. Roger Craig, to his dying day insisted it was a Mauser 7.65 and said he read the words from right off the rifle.

I'm going to set aside the issue that Kookbear brought up about the imprinting and any possible human error and point out that riffles that so closely resemble each other can be used as spare parts to repair each other if in good enough condition.

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Craig was soon fired from the DPd, had several attempts on his life, and eventually, allegedly, committed "suicide."

This is just baseless insinuation and speculation on your part.

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Two more.
One is one of Howard Donahue's (Mortal Error author) which he sent me years back, and the other is my M-C.
Each is different.
.

And again those are under some bright lights - not the dimly lit sixth floor of a warehouse.

Now interestingly Robert Prey make a big deal about these engravings saying Cal 6.5 and not the Mauser 7.62, which assumes:

1) The detectives in question had the various calibers of European rifles memorized.

2) Barring that -that they could somehow identify the tiny Italian crest vs. a German one (assuming they have them - from what I've seen, Mausers may have even less in the way of markings.)

[bynmdsue]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

It's coming, oh ye of little faith.

Oh man, I can't wait to see this.

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by Mudcat

Debunked by Kookbreaker

Me? Nothing. Walter Ego posted that clip on the last page. Guess who ignored it.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

We still are waiting to see what you've "got." (Properly sourced, please.)

Believe or not, there are people here, myself included, who could be convinced that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK i you could come up with some... you know like... evidence.

It's coming, oh ye of little faith.

Then why on earth not start the conversation with it? Why set the ultimate Logical Fallacy Quiz and jerk around when you could have said "hello, here is some evidence that says X about the JFK conspiracy?

Especially when you have already told people to "go home" before producing it.

And even more worrying after having been utterly blithe about spreading all kinds of crud that simple fact checks take a few seconds to dissprove. (The rifle found where? Nope. Who said what about which calibre? Etc.)


We dont work on faith. We work on evidence. Supply some.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by bynmdsue

Oh man, I can't wait to see this.

This it seems will be put to the test...

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

I will treat this sneering response with more respect that it deserves.

Oswald not only used the A.J. Hidell (not "Hidel") alias to order the Mannlicher-Carcano and the handgun, he used it in New Orleans to make it look like there was more than one member of his unofficial Fair Play for Cuba Committee by having Marina sign a membership card in the name of Hidell as chapter president and as the alternate name on the New Orleans post office box he rented in June 1963.

Oswald did have an inflated sense of his own importance but he obviously didn't want to be arrested otherwise why did he haul ass from the crime scene and kill Officer Tibbit? Oswald not only denied shooting anyone when questioned by the DPD, he told consistently provable lies when the questions turned to his ownership of the assassination rifle.

(And, interestingly, when asked to give any residential addresses he may have had in Dallas, he gave every address but he significantly left out 214 W. Neely St. where the backyard photos were taken of him with the rifle and the handgun that killed Tibbit.)

Oswald's fleeing Dealey Plaza, killing Tibbit, lying about his false ID and ownership of the Mannlicher-Carcano and concealing the fact of his residence at 214 W. Neely from the police are in fact evidence of what in legal terms is called "consciousness of guilt." So Oswald's denial of the Hidell alias, far from proving his innocence, was another indication of his guilt.

Do you have have documented facts that Oswald was not the assassin? We are still waiting to hear them.

No. But I'm asking for your documented facts that he was. I only claim it was a conspiracy, which I will shortly get into.

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

Then why on earth not start the conversation with it? Why set the ultimate Logical Fallacy Quiz and jerk around when you could have said "hello, here is some evidence that says X about the JFK conspiracy?.

Because I came across this discussion seeing a bunch of alleged critical thinkers pooh-poohing CT's, with nothing but name-calling, but zero evidence. So I simply ask, how do you know?

[Scott Sommers]

I have very little interest in these theories about the Kennedy Assassination. But I have to say that Walter's earlier statements that KA conspiracy theorists are just as nuts as 9/1 conspiracy theorists are appearing more and more true.

Robert, get to it. I'd like to hear your side - because I haven't heard anything meaningful so far. This is the first time I've ever paid attention to a KA thread and - so far - it's just as nutty as 9/11, the Atomic Hoax, or even the Hollywood Conspiracy. Am I wrong?

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

No. But I'm asking for your documented facts that he was. I only claim it was a conspiracy, which I will shortly get into.

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Because I came across this discussion seeing a bunch of alleged critical thinkers pooh-poohing CT's, with nothing but name-calling, but zero evidence. So I simply ask, how do you know?

You were given more than enough evidence by Walter Ego on post 53 and it was quoted several times. Pretending its not there doesn't impress us.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Because I came across this discussion seeing a bunch of alleged critical thinkers pooh-poohing CT's, with nothing but name-calling, but zero evidence. So I simply ask, how do you know?

So the evidence of the rifle, the warren comission, and frankly the data-gasm of post 50 donlt count because....? Your original claim there was not a "single" piece of evidence is flawed. A concise version of the lone gunman case has been offered and you have refuted nothing. No counter claim you have offered is supported by evidence. No viable evidence has been discredited by your claims. And yet you now assert that only "name calling" has been offered.

Perhaps you wish to redact that, or prove otherwise?


Or else perhaps explain what exactly you think you are bringing to the discussion?

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

Wrong!



This is known as a citation, btw, something you're still having problems providing us with. Notice the little linky at the end? That allows you to check the source of the quote and proves I didn't just extract it from my ass. When you c&p a quote (which you have been doing), it's just as easy to c&p the URL too. Try it sometimes.

You do understand the word "latent" don't you?
The FBI's Sebastian Latona examined the prints and found them to be worthless.
His WC Testiomny:
:
Mr. LATONA. I could see faintly ridge formations there. However, examination disclosed to me that the formations, the ridge formations and characteristics, were insufficient for purposes of either effecting identification or a determination that the print was not identical with the prints of people. Accordingly, my opinion simply was that the latent prints which were there were of no value.

As to the alleged palm print

It had no chain of evidence, and the Dallas police did not tell the FBI about the print until AFTER Oswald was dead.

"...journalists assigned to the Dallas police station were reporting that, according to their police sources, Oswald's prints had NOT been found on the rifle (Lifton 356 n).

There is evidence that suggests the palm print was obtained from Oswald's dead body at the morgue, or later at the funeral home (Lifton 354-356 n; cf. Meagher 120-127). So suspicious was the palm print that even the WC privately had doubts about the manner in which it was obtained (Garrison 113; Marrs 445; cf.

Moreover:

"..."Miller Funeral Home director Paul Groody told this author that the FBI fingerprinted Oswald's corpse. Groody said 'I had a heck of time getting the black fingerprint ink off of Oswald's hands.' In 1978, FBI agent Richard Harrison confirmed to researcher Gary Mack that he had personally driven another Bureau agent and the 'Oswald' rifle to the Miller Funeral Home. Harrison said at the time he understood that the other agent intended to place Oswald's palm print on the rifle 'for comparison purposes.' Oswald had been fingerprinted three times while alive and in Dallas police custody. There has been no explanation for this postmortem fingerprinting."-- from "Crossfire" by Jim Mars

[Robert Prey]

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers

I have very little interest in these theories about the Kennedy Assassination. But I have to say that Walter's earlier statements that KA conspiracy theorists are just as nuts as 9/1 conspiracy theorists are appearing more and more true.

Robert, get to it. I'd like to hear your side - because I haven't heard anything meaningful so far. This is the first time I've ever paid attention to a KA thread and - so far - it's just as nutty as 9/11, the Atomic Hoax, or even the Hollywood Conspiracy. Am I wrong?

"Conspiracy Theorists are just nuts...', eh? So all you do is to confirm what I have said, that you guys just offer name calling, with no evidence, save for one person who brought up the rifle ID. So, what do you have? In terms of "evidence.' Nothing, I'm sure.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

You were given more than enough evidence by Walter Ego on post 53 and it was quoted several times. Pretending its not there doesn't impress us.

Ah. Might have typed 50 instead of 53...

Anyhoo, assuming there is ANY evidence of a conspiracy, it doesn't alter the fact that all available material evidence pointing to LHO being the only gunman on the day. If Oswald was a CIA plant, connected to the mob via Ruby or anything else doesn't change that. Most of it has simpler explanations. They tend to be honest human error (a guy looking at a rifle at a glance and making bad estimates, or JFK and his driver being misidentified in black and white photos after head injuries) or just the kind of coincidences we expect to happen (X has heard of or knew Y ergo conspiracy, when six degrees of seperation morethan accounts for the interesting coincidence.)

Even if there were evidence of a conspiracy to plan the murder, it will be able to unthread the good, connected evidence that LHO was the shootist, making one wonder the point of rPs approach and attitude towards other participents in the discussion.