Newspaper's "Religion" section runs article on atheism

[HikakaGirl]

Originally Posted by Trent Wray

You tell a toddler not to play with fire, because they have no respect for the fire. They don't understand it. They could harm themselves and others. But you don't keep fire away from them their entire life. At some point, you teach them to respect fire, use it properly .... it's use is amazing in it's scope, from practical application to pleasure.

But you don't keep that fire away from people their entire lives.

I think for the most part, religious peeps simply haven't gotten past the "don't use fire" idea and think that it applies ALWAYS, their entire life, no matter what.


[/rant]

Trent,
I really like your fire analogy, so I'll run with it a little. The thing about fire is that it's scary. You can get burned by it, and that can be very painful. You may not be able to keep fire away from people their entire lives, but some people *choose* to avoid it because they are afraid of the pain associated with it. This is part and parcel of our human nature -- we are very good at constructing ways to help us to avoid pain, and this is an essential function of religion for us as a species.

[Mister Earl]

Is it essential when so many are perfectly fine without it?

[HikakaGirl]

Originally Posted by Mister Earl

Is it essential when so many are perfectly fine without it?

Sorry; I probably did not word that as well as I could have. One of *religion's* essential functions is to help us avoid pain (another is to help us deal with the unknown). I did not mean to imply it was an essential function for every human being. Thanks for helping me to clarify.

HG

[Brainache]

Originally Posted by HikakaGirl

Sorry; I probably did not word that as well as I could have. One of *religion's* essential functions is to help us avoid pain (another is to help us deal with the unknown). I did not mean to imply it was an essential function for every human being. Thanks for helping me to clarify.

HG

I would agree that those things should be the intention of Religion, but does it acheive those functions?

How does it effectively help someone to avoid pain? Is pain avoidance in itself a good thing?

Dealing with the unknown by saying "God did it" is completely unsatisfactory to me.

I don't mind not knowing, there are lots of things about the Universe that I don't know and can never know, most of those things don't matter to me. If your God is the ultimate god-of-the-gaps who doesn't interact with the material world, by definition S/He/It doesn't matter.

I certainly find no comfort in the idea of a God anything like the one described in the Bible. He is Terrifying.

[Trent Wray]

Originally Posted by HikakaGirl

Trent,
I really like your fire analogy, so I'll run with it a little. The thing about fire is that it's scary. You can get burned by it, and that can be very painful. You may not be able to keep fire away from people their entire lives, but some people *choose* to avoid it because they are afraid of the pain associated with it. This is part and parcel of our human nature -- we are very good at constructing ways to help us to avoid pain, and this is an essential function of religion for us as a species.

This is good stuff So I'll keep running with it as well

You're absolutely correct .... fire can be scary. You can get burned by it, and that can be painful. In fact, in the medical world I've dealt with a few burn victims on occasion ... and a family member was an RN who pulled shifts in the burn unit from time to time and I heard the horror stories from there as well. Fearing pain is part of many of our natures ... although some have different tolerances, and some actually seek it out, some view it as pleasurable ....

Regardless, going with the fire analogy .... again, you're correct. It's scary, and can cause some of the most traumatic and horrific pain we can experience and know as human beings. So it makes sense on many levels to find ways to protect ourselves from it, or to avoid it .... etc and so forth.

However, suppose you have a "no fire in my house" rule. You view fire as evil. And you won't allow yourself to touch it, nor will you allow those in your family to play with it or use it or touch it.

But you enjoy cooked food. So sometimes, you buy out. Or you make sure everything in your house is electric ... no gas, or fossil fuel. And yeah, sure electricity can cause fires, but if you're really careful, it won't. So it's not really the same as playing with fire, is it ? And your car .... well, yeah it runs on combustion in the engine, but it's all so contained and you can't really see it happening, so having a vehicle gets a pass as well. And where you work ? Sometimes they have barbecues for the employees .... and you enjoy the food cooked over those flames. But that doesn't count really, because it's not your house, it's theirs. The sin is on their hands. You merely are eating the food, and nothing more. It's not like you're lighting the fires is it ? Now .... if they said, "hey ... lets go have a campout and bonfire !!! " well then that would be obviously wrong for you to participate. But a company barbecue is different. I mean, God would understand why you can't just say not to your company. There are also rules about respecting authority in place, so whilst it's not in your house, or by your hand, it only makes sense for you to "respect" your authority figures and enjoy that good barbecue food.

Oh and the soldiers and military that protect your freedoms to not use fire .... it's okay that they use fire all the time for various purposes. As do the companies overseas in those god forsaken lands that make the clothes on your back.

You see where I'm going with all of it ? The point, is that many people will say "fire is evil. Do not play with it, ever." .... but they will enjoy the things fire does whilst passing the buck to someone else. So long as someone else is putting themselves in harms way, and not them .... they remain clean, and righteous, and holy .... whilst the heathens and sinners and evildoers are the ones risking getting burned, hurt, injured, facing the fears associated with fire ... and even at times, working passed those fears altogether.

Because at some point, fear gets replaced with RESPECT. Instead of fearing a thing, or doing the opposite and embracing the thing wholeheartedly while taking for granted the consequences .... some people learn to respect a thing. Seeing it's benefits and detriments, and using it "wisely"

And yet, those who say, "no fire" because they are afraid of it, still enjoy it .... at someone else's expense . And instead of being grateful to that someone else who IS risking being burned, and injured, and dealing with their fears instead of running from them or making their own fears some god over them ... instead they crap on them and call them "sinners" who deserve hell . Or perhaps worse .... they try to find ways to take away fire from everyone, ridding the world of it, because THEY are afraid of it. It doesn't matter if others have learned to respect it and use it .... if they can't have it, no one should have it.

Taking this to a personal level ... but still using the fire analogy ... I understand people's fears. If you are afraid of fire, there is no rule saying you have to play with it, or use it. Although, if you're going to enjoy the benefits of it, and I am personally going to be the one who the buck gets passed to to where I have to risk myself for you to enjoy it, I would hope to get some respect for it . But honestly ? Even if I don't ... I will still probably risk myself in those flames for your benefit, even if you don't show me gratitude or "respect" .... because I enjoy the benefits of it, and so do you, and I'll try to keep it separate . And taking it further ... even if you blame me and crap on me for it, I might still take the blows and let you have your cooked meals. After all, animals that are afraid act irrationally some of the time ... go up to most wild animals, wild or domestic ... cause them to be afraid, and they will react differently then they would otherwise. So I might even be willing to look passed that, especially if you are hungry and willing to accept the food.

But waste that food too many times, or try and take away my ability to use fire, to where I can benefit myself and others with it who DO want it and DO use it, afraid or not .... and I might not help you out again. In that case, from me at least, you can have the consequences of what your fear/religion/justification for wasting fire or trying to take it away from me gives you directly. IOW ... "you made your fireless bed, you can now sleep in it fully to see what it is you made."

Thanx for responding to my post HG and welcome

[HikakaGirl]

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I would agree that those things should be the intention of Religion, but does it acheive those functions?

It does for some people, yes. A better example to draw on is the role of religion in dealing with the unknown (although that's not to say I'm avoiding the discussion on the avoidance of pain). Human beings have an inherent need to make sense of things. For those who believe in religion, it helps them to make sense of things that they would not otherwise be able to understand. It provides a framework for how things are, how things should be, that they can work within. I think this is part of the intelligent design argument. Non-believers make sense of the world and how things should be through other means.

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How does it effectively help someone to avoid pain? Is pain avoidance in itself a good thing?

Research has shown that people attend to and process painful experiences (physical and psychological) with coping mechanisms intended to minimize those painful experiences and memories. Some of those coping mechanisms are cognitive. For example, just today I spent a decent amount of time rationalizing why someone else in my work group received what I perceived to be an unfair reward. Hearing of their "achievement" was very painful for me, as I do not believe it is deserved (I'm still pissed). If I were a religious person, I could just say to myself, "God intended this person to get a disproportionate reward; I should trust God's will". That's an easy answer that religion provides. Since I am not a religious person, I rationalized (the person they worked with carried them through the project, they got lucky, etc). Both are coping mechanisms that help me diffuse my painful emotions.

This is more of a personal statement, but I am not sure if pain avoidance is a good thing or not. I think in some circumstances, the need to compartmentalize and at least temporarily avoid pain is necessary for survival (physical or psychological), but I'm generally not a fan of avoiding pain.

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Dealing with the unknown by saying "God did it" is completely unsatisfactory to me.

I could not agree with you more. I think this is the heart of the relationship between skepticism and atheism.

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I don't mind not knowing, there are lots of things about the Universe that I don't know and can never know...

Here again, I think you've touched on a good point. I think that atheists are more comfortable not knowing (I could test this in a study if I wanted; that might be interesting) and in fact, many take joy in the idea of the unknowable complexity of the universe.

[Trent Wray]

Originally Posted by HikakaGirl

Research has shown that people attend to and process painful experiences (physical and psychological) with coping mechanisms intended to minimize those painful experiences and memories. Some of those coping mechanisms are cognitive. For example, just today I spent a decent amount of time rationalizing why someone else in my work group received what I perceived to be an unfair reward. Hearing of their "achievement" was very painful for me, as I do not believe it is deserved (I'm still pissed). If I were a religious person, I could just say to myself, "God intended this person to get a disproportionate reward; I should trust God's will". That's an easy answer that religion provides. Since I am not a religious person, I rationalized (the person they worked with carried them through the project, they got lucky, etc). Both are coping mechanisms that help me diffuse my painful emotions.

This is more of a personal statement, but I am not sure if pain avoidance is a good thing or not. I think in some circumstances, the need to compartmentalize and at least temporarily avoid pain is necessary for survival (physical or psychological), but I'm generally not a fan of avoiding pain.

Excellent points. Reminds me of Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning.

[Brainache]

Originally Posted by HikakaGirl

It does for some people, yes. ... That's an easy answer that religion provides. Since I am not a religious person, I rationalized (the person they worked with carried them through the project, they got lucky, etc). Both are coping mechanisms that help me diffuse my painful emotions.

OK. I guess you can't get any more subjective than pain, so people will always use whatever works for them personally. Religion doesn't work for me.

Quote:

This is more of a personal statement, but I am not sure if pain avoidance is a good thing or not. I think in some circumstances, the need to compartmentalize and at least temporarily avoid pain is necessary for survival (physical or psychological), but I'm generally not a fan of avoiding pain.

I'm not a big fan of pain, but I have to admit it is an effective teacher.

Quote:

...
Here again, I think you've touched on a good point. I think that atheists are more comfortable not knowing (I could test this in a study if I wanted; that might be interesting) and in fact, many take joy in the idea of the unknowable complexity of the universe.

Knowing that there will always be new things to learn, is one of life's joys.

[HikakaGirl]

QUOTE = Trent Wray

Quote:

You're absolutely correct .... fire can be scary. You can get burned by it, and that can be painful. In fact, in the medical world I've dealt with a few burn victims on occasion ... and a family member was an RN who pulled shifts in the burn unit from time to time and I heard the horror stories from there as well. Fearing pain is part of many of our natures ... although some have different tolerances, and some actually seek it out, some view it as pleasurable ....

And others are simply willing and able to face their fears of pain head-on. They acknowledge the fire and they understand that getting burned is part and parcel of life with fire. They may still fear the fire, but courage prevails.

Quote:

You see where I'm going with all of it ? The point, is that many people will say "fire is evil. Do not play with it, ever." .... but they will enjoy the things fire does whilst passing the buck to someone else. So long as someone else is putting themselves in harms way, and not them .... they remain clean, and righteous, and holy .... whilst the heathens and sinners and evildoers are the ones risking getting burned, hurt, injured, facing the fears associated with fire ... and even at times, working passed those fears altogether.

I totally see where you’re going with all of it. There is a slippery slope with regard to fire. We all want it and need it, but some have a problem to deal with in that they believe fire is bad, yet they want it and need it. Some will reconcile that problem and others will not. I think this double standard is one reason why those who think fire is ok or even good get really frustrated by those who think fire is evil. Really, it is in our nature to play with fire, but that’s a whole other topic of conversation.

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Because at some point, fear gets replaced with RESPECT. Instead of fearing a thing, or doing the opposite and embracing the thing wholeheartedly while taking for granted the consequences .... some people learn to respect a thing. Seeing it's benefits and detriments, and using it "wisely"

Here’s where you sort of lose me. Are you saying that there are those that believe fire is evil yet respect it (and ultimately harness it), or are you saying that once one passes from fear of fire to respect for fire, that fire ceases to be evil for them?

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Although, if you're going to enjoy the benefits of it, and I am personally going to be the one who the buck gets passed to to where I have to risk myself for you to enjoy it, I would hope to get some respect for it .

If you’ll pardon the expression, “Amen!”

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But waste that food too many times, or try and take away my ability to use fire, to where I can benefit myself and others with it who DO want it and DO use it, afraid or not .... and I might not help you out again. In that case, from me at least, you can have the consequences of what your fear/religion/justification for wasting fire or trying to take it away from me gives you directly. IOW ... "you made your fireless bed, you can now sleep in it fully to see what it is you made."

Good points here, too. This makes me think of the reinforcing power of belonging to a group. Those who think you should not play with fire like to hang out with others who think that fire should not be played with, and if they don’t like you anymore because you won’t help them (even if they brought it on themselves), they put you into their “out-group.” It’s okay for them, though, because they can always go and rely on others who are in their group of people who say you should not play with fire. It then reinforces the dichotomy of those who don’t play with fire versus those who do play with fire, and feeds the no-fire / fire debate to ridiculous heights.

I keep coming back to your other point, though. Without someone, at some point in time playing with fire, we would not be able to eat a delicious, fire-grilled NY strip steak while camping. I, for one, am happy to tend the fire in exchange for that steak.

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Thanx for responding to my post HG and welcome

Thanks for the welcome and for sharing your thoughts; good stuff indeed.

[GreyArea]

Originally Posted by Trent Wray

But you don't keep that fire away from people their entire lives.

Trent, are you familiar with Kohlberg's theory about stages of moral development? Your comment reminded me of it. Apparently, some people don't get very far along the sequence, even as adults.

Originally Posted by epix

No thanks. Rational stories are very often unimaginative, boring tales chasing each other in a small closed box.

Hey, do not knock the small closed box. Some contain great stories.

[Trent Wray]

Originally Posted by GreyArea

Trent, are you familiar with Kohlberg's theory about stages of moral development? Your comment reminded me of it. Apparently, some people don't get very far along the sequence, even as adults.

I wasn't familiar with it ... it's an interesting read though.

Stage six reminds me of one of my favorite lines from Dark Knight lol ...

Bruce Wayne: People are dying, Alfred. What would you have me do?

Alfred Pennyworth: Endure, Master Wayne. Take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman, he can be the outcast. He can make the choice that no one else can make, the right choice.

[Multivac]

Originally Posted by epix

No thanks. Rational stories are very often unimaginative, boring tales chasing each other in a small closed box.[/url]

How can you possibly object to rational stories in a newspaper? Could you please elaborate as I don't understand your point of view.

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by HikakaGirl

QUOTE = Trent Wray



And others are simply willing and able to face their fears of pain head-on. They acknowledge the fire and they understand that getting burned is part and parcel of life with fire. They may still fear the fire, but courage prevails.



...

.
Depends on the culture. I recall 60 years ago reading a history of Rome, where some barbarians had captured a Roman soldier, and threatened him with fire.
He put his hand -in- the fire and let it burn off. (If memory serves).. and the barbarians abandoned their idea of invasion. (if memory serves. )
American Indians had elaborate torture rituals, in which the honoree was -expected- to put a very brave front through the entire ordeal, even chiding the toturerers efforts, up to the point of death. His response would be honored.

[Trent Wray]

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Depends on the culture. I recall 60 years ago reading a history of Rome, where some barbarians had captured a Roman soldier, and threatened him with fire.
He put his hand -in- the fire and let it burn off. (If memory serves).. and the barbarians abandoned their idea of invasion. (if memory serves. )
American Indians had elaborate torture rituals, in which the honoree was -expected- to put a very brave front through the entire ordeal, even chiding the toturerers efforts, up to the point of death. His response would be honored.

Holy dogs, snakes, and monkeys Centurion man !

[Trent Wray]

Originally Posted by HikakaGirl

Really, it is in our nature to play with fire, but that’s a whole other topic of conversation.

Yes it sure is