Penn State former defensive coordinator charged with sexual abuse of children - Page 9

Ysidro · 10th November 2011, 07:23 PM

Just saw a bug on TV for the nightly news. McQueary won't be at the game, but I don't know more than that.

SezMe · 10th November 2011, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Redtail

Reports of JoePa getting a lawyer has sparked a slew of rumors about what he knew/did.

That's too bad because Joe would be an idiot if he didn't lawyer up, no matter what he knew and when he knew it. It is just a good sense move to protect himself.

NotJesus · 10th November 2011, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Ysidro

Just saw a bug on TV for the nightly news. McQueary won't be at the game, but I don't know more than that.

More here. Apparently, they're concerned for his safety after receiving "multiple threats." No plans to fire him (but that could change).

Also, Paterno's advisors have reached out to an attoney but Paterno hasn't met with him yet and no retainer has been signed.

Ysidro · 10th November 2011, 07:59 PM

I don't know why they don't just cancel the game at this point.

Of course, if I had my way the entire program would be gutted.

Maybe they could use some of the money they'd save for the victims.

NotJesus · 10th November 2011, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Ysidro

I don't know why they don't just cancel the game at this point.

Of course, if I had my way the entire program would be gutted.

Maybe they could use some of the money they'd save for the victims.

Big-time college football is a huge money-maker. How do you think guys like Paterno get so powerful to begin with?

Ysidro · 10th November 2011, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by NotJesus

Big-time college football is a huge money-maker. How do you think guys like Paterno get so powerful to begin with?

I'm from Pennsylvania. I have family members who are Penn State grads. Believe me, I know.

Number Six · 10th November 2011, 09:21 PM

I'm not trying to excuse Penn State, but it wouldn't surprise me if this had happened at any super big football school. I don't think the difference between Penn State and other super big football schools is the willingness to do whatever it takes to protect the reputation of The Institution (the super big football program in this case) from harm. Rather I think the difference was happening to have something so nasty (Sandusky) to protect the reputation from.

And I also think the same thing goes for McQueary, the guy that saw the act in person. This is a guy that was low on the totem pole if a high prestige institution and witnessed something that he knew could harm the institution and his first instinct was to report the event to the authorities inside the institution rather than larger societal institutions. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do but I'm just saying I suspect it's a more common attitude than people might think.

NotJesus · 10th November 2011, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Ysidro

I'm from Pennsylvania. I have family members who are Penn State grads. Believe me, I know.

OK. Then I don't know why you think they'd save money by gutting the program.

Redtail · 10th November 2011, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

That's too bad because Joe would be an idiot if he didn't lawyer up, no matter what he knew and when he knew it. It is just a good sense move to protect himself.

Exactly. I'm honestly surprised it took this long.

ProBonoShill · 10th November 2011, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by NotJesus

OK. Then I don't know why you think they'd save money by gutting the program.

Me either.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Sports/...omething-wrong

Quote:

College football is a $3 billion industry, and Penn State at the top in both earnings and profit for the Big Ten Conference. According to Forbes, Penn State generated $70.2 million in football revenue and $50.4 million in profit for the 2009 season. The athletic department pocketed more than half that, $26.4 million.

The think the bolded part might have a little to do with why the shower incident was swept under the rug and the initial charges against Sandusky years ago were mysteriously dropped.

bigred · 11th November 2011, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Mary_H

This is an excellent essay, too.

THE NITTANY LIARS
Penn State Flagged for Illegal Procedure

No, actually, it's not. It's a piss poor hack piece written by some nobody schmuck portraying the mob mentality so dominating these discussions and attitudes now, full of accusations and witch-burning attitudes and rather lacking on facts. Not that most care about such things right now.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

You'll have to show evidence that Paterno thought someone else was handling it.

So much for innocent until proven guilty eh? But OK: it is a matter of record that he reported it to the AD, which is where the responsibility to handle it from there lies.

Quote:

And then you'll have to show evidence that he had no vision, hearing or sensibility because he seems to have not noticed that the police didn't show up on campus.

No I won't, nor would he. Can you really not see how ridiculous that is? You seem to really literally think Paterno is "the" God. Apparently this will come as a shock, but Paterno cannot and does not know or see every single thing that happens on every square inch of that town, FYI.

Quote:

He's a football coach, not law enforcement, judge and jury.

Hey you got something right.

Originally Posted by Stacko

It certainly seems like they're head hunting when Joe Paterno is fired and Mike McQueary whose inactions I find more reprehensible than Joe's hasn't been fired yet.

Hey somebody gets it, thank you. Yep. McQueary wasn't nearly a big enough fish to fry. Paterno's axing was to satisfy the mob's desire for blood and hopefully take a lot of heat off of them by "doing something." So what if it's the wrong thing? Nobody cares. Just GET SOMEBODY. Brilliant.

Originally Posted by Stacko

If they wait till the end of the season to clean house because they're in contention for the national championship,

People can't even get this straight. Not that I think it really matters much if at all, there is realistically no way they have a shot at the title. FYI.

Originally Posted by The Shrike

While I understand where you're coming from, it's difficult to appreciate unless you've lived there how loved and revered JoePa is in that community and by those students. It sounds crazy that a feeling of "family" can be generated on a campus of 40,000, but that really is the case there, and JoePa is the patriarch of that family.

When a family member takes heat for something, your first instinct is to rally around that person. Picture how you might respond if your dad or your grandpa was embroiled in a controversy. You'd do what you could to support the person you love, at least initially.

EXACTLY. Thank you. I have put this to others and rarely get a response, let alone an honest one, ie: if (for ex) your father was accused of knowing about an act like this and did nothing and was getting ripped left and right, what would you do? Assume they are right and join in or defend your dad? What if it was "only" a beloved uncle or grandfather? I think we all know the answer.

WildCat · 11th November 2011, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by bigred

So much for innocent until proven guilty eh?

Perhaps you didn't notice, but the JREF is not a court of law.

You didn't read the Grand Jury report, did you?

bigred · 11th November 2011, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by Zelenius

It makes me wonder if any of these rioting students bothered to read the Grand Jury transcript. It seems that very few of them did or if they did they refused to believe it. The university has a bad enough reputation already without students protesting and rioting to support a child rape enabler. It will take almost forever for this institution's reputation to recover, and that is based on what we already know. A lot more dirt is sure to come out with the Feds getting involved, the trustees conducting their own investigation and the upcoming trial of Sandusky. This train-wreck will only get worse.

As an aside, I never quite understood why so many people think of accomplished athletes or successful coaches as "heroes". The naive all too often equate success with goodness or high moral character. I can understand Paterno being admired for his success, but I cannot understand this "living legend" God-like status he has at the school. The students there act like he can walk on water or raise the dead, even after being exposed as a mere mortal of questionable character.

If I had a child who wanted to attend college, I'd recommend he or she stay away from any college that turned its students into lemming like cult-members over something as frivolous as football. I admit I have trouble understanding this pervasive quasi-religious football culture at so many American universities. Then again, I didn't go to college.

Lots of good info here.

Darat · 11th November 2011, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by bigred

...snip....

EXACTLY. Thank you. I have put this to others and rarely get a response, let alone an honest one, ie: if (for ex) your father was accused of knowing about an act like this and did nothing and was getting ripped left and right, what would you do? Assume they are right and join in or defend your dad? What if it was "only" a beloved uncle or grandfather? I think we all know the answer.

I would examine the evidence available and then make my mind up. If I thought a member of my family or circle of friends had responded as was described in the Grand Jury paper I would be more angry than I would on learning of a similar set of circumstances involving a work colleague.

bigred · 11th November 2011, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by The Shrike

It's the way he coached and ran that team as a family. Very few programs achieve that level of big-time football success with such a high level of academic success. Skip class? You're benched. Fail a class? Benched, or off the team. Want your name on your jersey? Go somewhere else; we're a team. The whole "We are Penn State" thing came from an incident in which the team was set to play in the segregated South and one or more of their African American players were taking heat. The team's response was that all of them, black and white, were integral to that team identity. It was a gutsy show of solidarity against institutionalized racism.

Through the years, Joe could've made tons more money. He could've recruited better athletes and won more championships. But he had a love of that community - to which he's donated millions - and a dedication to honor first, and winning second.

That's why it's so painful now to learn that in this critical instance Joe's moral compass sent him to the Bermuda Triangle. He really is a superb human being, but in this case he flat out failed to live up to anything near his own code of honor. That's the tragic irony and the cognitive dissonance here.

Well said, thanks. He is certainly not faultless here and he knows and has said as much; his punishment is far more than a sad ending to an unmatched and otherwise extremely honorable career. It's living with knowing he could have done more.

bigred · 11th November 2011, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I would examine the evidence available and then make my mind up. If I thought a member of my family or circle of friends had responded as was described in the Grand Jury paper I would be more angry than I would on learning of a similar set of circumstances involving a work colleague.

Good idea, although I'm betting initially you would assume innocence and need one heckuva a case and a LOT of evidence to be swayed otherwise. And there is little evidence in this right now. There are accusations and testimonials only. Strong stuff but IMO not nearly enough to *BANG* stop or I'll shoot.

I just think it would have been nice/advisable to have this go to court and KNOW what's what before people started throwing molotov cocktails every which way.

Darat · 11th November 2011, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by bigred

Well said, thanks. He is certainly not faultless here and he knows and has said as much; his punishment is far more than a sad ending to an unmatched and otherwise extremely honorable career. It's living with knowing he could have done more.

He has been in a position of knowing he could have done more for the last (around) 10 years so I don't see why it should now start being a punishment?

bigred · 11th November 2011, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

I'm not sure, but to me a superb human being might be moved to get off his ass and go investigate when it's reported that one of his staff

Sandusky was not one of this staff.

oops, sorry, I threw another fact in there. I keep forgetting they don't matter in this issue.

tyr_13 · 11th November 2011, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by bigred

Sandusky was not one of this staff.

oops, sorry, I threw another fact in there. I keep forgetting they don't matter in this issue.

An irrelevant fact.

Darat · 11th November 2011, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

...snip...

I agree. My problem hasn't been with any of this, but the way people have been acting like his failing was some unthinkably extreme character deficiency. My real position is that human nature is horrible, from our rational moral principle perspective. This man's character is no more scummy than one's neighbour, who honestly is probably sitting on a similar story about Uncle Joe. And by "no more" I mean just as scummy, just under the right bizarre influences.

...snip...

That's the point I was making earlier when I said I could understand why he did not take immediate action when he saw the child being raped and I accept that is how humans can react in such stressful circumstances.

But that only covers the immediate reaction, from what others have posted it seems that for years after witnessing the child being raped he would have seen the rapist with young children. Given that I do think it is right to conclude that to not have taken further action over that timespan is a character flaw.

bigred · 11th November 2011, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by AlBell

Wow. What caliber weapons do you folks carry?

On the internet, everone is Bruce Lee with an uzi.

It is soooo easy to sit here all comfy behind a computer with the luxury of hindsight and chit chatter away about I woulda done the exact right thing at the exact right time blah blah blah. But when something this shocking blindsides you in an instant, FYI it might not be so easy/simple and being human you might not take the best path.

I do not excuse anyone in this situation who didn't, btw. Just something to think about.

Schrodinger's Cat · 11th November 2011, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by sadhatter

This reminds me of a situation that happened to me a while ago that shows the apathy of even the police. ( warning, read completely , for my sake, lol.)

It was new years and me and some friends were at the bar, a female made her way over and started to hit on the lot of us ( 3 gents in total.) , one friend was not into anything of that nature, but me and the other were good to go.

Now she was drunk, but no more than us, ( or so we thought) and she was rather up front about what she was looking for. It was snowy , terrible, and none of us had coats ( and i found my cab money has disapeared.). So we started a rather long walk across town.

Now half way there she starts acting very erratic, getting intensely angry , not being able to stand, then getting really happy ( also unable to stand.), keep in mind it was around 2 am, so frequently we were telling her to not yell so loud, etc.

Now, i inquired and found out that she did large doeses of prescription drugs , and they had just started to kick in. So the plan changed from what it was , to getting her somewhere so she didn't wander off in the snow and die.

Now, while i know we were doing good, think of what this would look like to onlookers.

3 gents, seemingly dragging a very inebriated girl around saying things to the nature of " Just shut up" ( in relation to her loud screaming of odd, or vulgar things.). I personally thought we would get stopped at some point and have a long awkward explination.

But not so much, people looked, some people almost came over, but no one did anything.

Even when we walked by a female cop, and she jokingly said, loudly something about being kidnapped. The cop was about to come over, but decided against it.

I just don't get it, if the people were wrong, it would just have been a laugh, nothing big except for some wasted time, and awkwardness. But what if we were planning something bad and taking her against her will? ( which, it really would have seemed.)

Sometimes i just don't get people.

( as a post script, upon getting back to my friends place, she proceeded to puke violently, and then, of all things, still try and push for the threeway. Seeing as she was completely out of her mind, though very energetic, i spent a couple of hours convincing her it was a bad idea, and that , at least, she should wait to sober up a bit to make that decision. Thankfully that pissed her , off and she ended up getting a safe way home with our third buddy. )

hmmm, you know, this would actually be a problem for me. I live bordered by Boston College on one side of my neighborhood and Boston University and the other, on the main street, and in a bar heavy neighborhood. And just in general, I live in Boston, which is filled with college students, Irish, and Italians. If I stopped a group of people everytime I saw some guys dragging around a drunk girl shouting vulgarities, that's all I'd be doing every Friday and Saturday night.

Darat · 11th November 2011, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by bigred

Good idea, although I'm betting initially you would assume innocence and need one heckuva a case and a LOT of evidence to be swayed otherwise. And there is little evidence in this right now. There are accusations and testimonials only. Strong stuff but IMO not nearly enough to *BANG* stop or I'll shoot.

I just think it would have been nice/advisable to have this go to court and KNOW what's what before people started throwing molotov cocktails every which way.

You don't seem to have read the grand jury paper - in that he stated that he was informed of (at least) a matter of inappropriate sexual activity. I condemn him based on his own testimony.

Darat · 11th November 2011, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by bigred

On the internet, everone is Bruce Lee with an uzi.

It is soooo easy to sit here all comfy behind a computer with the luxury of hindsight and chit chatter away about I woulda done the exact right thing at the exact right time blah blah blah. But when something this shocking blindsides you in an instant, FYI it might not be so easy/simple and being human you might not take the best path.

I do not excuse anyone in this situation who didn't, btw. Just something to think about.

He has had years in which to take action - he choose not to.

varwoche · 11th November 2011, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by bigred

Sandusky was not one of this staff.

oops, sorry, I threw another fact in there. I keep forgetting they don't matter in this issue.

As I understand, he was on the staff when the first incident happened.

BTW I'm amused by this part, because I don't have the impression that you're fact-oriented. Just the opposite actually.

Foolmewunz · 11th November 2011, 06:13 AM

Oh, those poor ~~kids~~ men. So shocked and disoriented by what was seen and reported that they could hardly get it together to plan their 81 football games between the incident and last weekend.

I just feel horrible for them. What is this world coming to? Won't somebody think of the ~~children~~ football coaches?

Schrodinger's Cat · 11th November 2011, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Oh, those poor ~~kids~~ men. So shocked and disoriented by what was seen and reported that they could hardly get it together to plan their 81 football games between the incident and last weekend.

I just feel horrible for them. What is this world coming to? Won't somebody think of the ~~children~~ football coaches?

Couldn't have possibly put it better than this.

The Shrike · 11th November 2011, 06:21 AM

Read an allusion to an anecdote about McQueary that he once dove in to break up a knife fight on campus. (Sorry, the link didn't work so I couldn't follow to the source.) I was also watching footage of him on the sidelines this morning. Mike is a huge guy and full of fire and certainly doesn't seem like someone easily intimidated. Whatever kept him from acting that fateful night, I can't imagine it had anything to do with physical fear of Sandusky.

Schrodinger's Cat · 11th November 2011, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by bigred

On the internet, everone is Bruce Lee with an uzi.

It is soooo easy to sit here all comfy behind a computer with the luxury of hindsight and chit chatter away about I woulda done the exact right thing at the exact right time blah blah blah. But when something this shocking blindsides you in an instant, FYI it might not be so easy/simple and being human you might not take the best path.

I do not excuse anyone in this situation who didn't, btw. Just something to think about.

I am loathe to bring up this point, yet again, but what kind of person are you that you think it takes some mighty Xena Warrior princess to report rape to the police? Both instantly, when you see what's happening, and then again over the course of ten years.

I really am just shocked at people like you who are willing to classify doing something this simple as heroic, requiring a toughened Marine. This was not an ambiguous situation in which the clear right thing to do was not apparent. This is not a situation which would have put someone in any risk of harm. Calling the police is not hard. It's not. Stop acting like anyone who says that making a one minute telephone call is an easy thing any person acting with any moral compass and who wasn't a complete and total apathetic coward would do is being presumptuous. Stop acting like this was a normal, human thing to do and that anyone who claims otherwise is posing as some brave Hercules.

Screaming at an unarmed rapist to stop is not courageous, particularly when you outmatch him physically. Going for help immediately, barring that, is not courageous.

Picking up the phone to call the cops over the course of ten years is not courageous. It is basic human decency and the least we should expect from anyone who wishes to take part in a civilized society. The monsters will always be out there, and the only thing we have is the assurance that people who aren't monsters aren't just going to let them act as they will.

Now this is really the last time I will speak on the matter, but bigred, your expectations of an acceptable reaction to a situation in which another person is threatened is repugnant to me. MacQueary and his father knew of an immediate threat. They did nothing to stop it and save that child, not even a phone call. But even worse, they sat on it for ten years and let the victim count continue to mount. Full stop.

bigred · 11th November 2011, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Stellafane

But with each additional detail, the story just got worse and worse. For instance, it wasn't just some random student, it was a member of the coaching staff and thus someone Paterno presumedly knew and trusted.

Not to nit-pick but he was not a member of the coaching staff at the time. As to how much he knew/trusted the kid, we don't know. It is reasonable to assume Paterno knew/trusted Sandusky a lot more and so reasonably questioned the accusation.

Quote:

Sandusky had apparently been seen performing oral sex on an 8 year old back in 1998.

Key word: apparently. Nothing came of it - who knows, it could have been a cover-up or something similarly insidious - or it could have been there was no evidence or even testimony to pursue it further. Should we put everyone in front of a firing squad every time accusations are made despite a lack of evidence? Sorry that isn't how our system works, and rightfully so. Again it's easy to throw up things like that in hindsight.

Quote:

The bolded parts above cast Paterno's actions (or lack thereof) in a very different and much harsher light. A perfectly plausible explanation -- indeed, I think the only viable one at this point -- is that what went through Paterno's mind was something akin to "Holy crap, Sandusky's at it again -- and this time PSU is complicit because we didn't report him back in 1998!!"

No, it's not the only viable one, but I agree at that point the 98 thing should have been in Paterno's mind and he should have taken stronger measures. Again and as I have said all along, I do not call Paterno faultless. But I am unconvinced he "knew" (or felt reasonably sure) these allegations were true. The thing is we don't know. But people aren't interested in that. They want to assume the worst and extract pints of blood whever they can regardless of actual facts. That is what is annoying the bleep out of me.

Quote:

So no, I no longer have a great deal of sympathy for Joe Paterno at this point, and I think the disgust directed at him is entirely justified. At best, I consider him a largely (or formerly) decent, but deeply flawed individual who lost all perspective in a terribly horrific way. I take zero joy in his demise (quite the contrary), but I cannot think of him as any sort of victim either.

I disagree, to an extent. I think much some disgust directed at him is merited, but with many, esp those who have no clue about him or all he has done (and I am not talking wins on the field) is over the top out of ignorance and blind rage.

DJW · 11th November 2011, 06:32 AM

She shoots she scores!!!

And the crowd goes wild...

bigred · 11th November 2011, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Noztradamus

At the time he was a 59 year old guy a few inches taller than a weasel http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2011/foo...paterno-p1.jpg

Against the same weasel, Mike McQueary is the freaking Hulk, half Sandy's age, only 3 years out of his playing career http://media.philly.com/images/300*3...cyjoe10z-a.JPG
But, no soul.

You and others miss the point there. It isn't "McQueary should have kicked his butt!" Well duh. It's "I would have kicked his butt!" Yeah, some would I'm sure. Many would have at least intervened in some way. But some I don't doubt are tough talkers tapping away on the internet but if actually faced with that situation might have or would have not. And I'm not saying they are cowards per se. But something that extreme can freak a person out quite easily and it's difficult to know exactly how one would act, while it's extremely easy to talk tough about hypotheticals.

PS and oh btw for those dumb enough to make this reach, I AM NOT DEFENDING MCQUEARY AT ALL. At the very very least he should have called the cops right then and yes ideally he should have kicked the living bleep out of Sandusky or at least got him off the kid and got the kid out of there. But - one more time - it's very easy to say all this in hindsight typing it on a PC. In real life, not so easy/simple per se.

Marquis de Carabas · 11th November 2011, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by bigred

PS and oh btw for those dumb enough to make this reach, I AM NOT DEFENDING MCQUEARY AT ALL. At the very very least he should have called the cops right then and yes ideally he should have kicked the living bleep out of Sandusky or at least got him off the kid and got the kid out of there. But - one more time - it's very easy to say all this in hindsight typing it on a PC. In real life, not so easy/simple per se.

I'll grant that for the shock of the moment, immediate reaction failure to respond. Sure, ideally he should have rushed Sandusky and sat on him til the cops showed up, but freaking out, leaving and calling the cops the next day would have been understandable. Or the next day....

Or the next...

Or the next...

Or the next...

Or the next...

Or the next...

Or the next...

(There's over 3,000 of these left to go. Let me know if the message sinks in so I can stop before then.)

Or the next...

bigred · 11th November 2011, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by rpmcmurphy

It's easy to say how easily we would have done more than McQueary did in that instance and certainly I would like to think that I would have done more in that situation as well.

Unfortunately, there are countless studies that have shown human behavior to not be what we would expect (Asch, Milgram, Zimbardo, etc.). Have you seen the ABC show What Would You Do? Time and again people ignore people that are in distress. It seems to be the exception rather than the rule that people will step in and help. What about the Kitty Genovese case? While some of those facts have been called into question, this woman was being murdered and no one came to help.

I actually think McQueary's initial response of going to Paterno was understandable. The fact he reported it at all is a bit of an anomaly. My bigger problem is their lack of follow up after that time. That Paterno had to have known of the 1998 investigation of Sandusky and didn't do more after the 2002 incident is reprehensible. That Paterno AND McQueary could see Sandusky with children ever again and not follow up infuriates me.

I feel that McQueary should be gone with Paterno, not for his initial response but for his complacency after the fact.

Just read this after my post above. Refreshing. Thank you.

Schrodinger's Cat · 11th November 2011, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Mary_H

It is
The culture of protectors is becoming more powerful against the culture of abusers because of increased knowledge, education, media exposure and the internet. It's a great change for the better. To say, though, that we know how outspoken we would have been nine years ago or twenty years ago is kind of like a young woman who says she "doesn't believe in feminism," because she doesn't realize her now-automatic rights were hard-earned.

In general, I agree. I think it's very important that society has developed a more culture of protection than a culture of abusers. Of course, this can backfire with overzealous prosecution despite no actual evidence of abuse, such as the pre school insanity in the 80s. But generally speaking, this is surely a good thing that resulted through a change in the cultural perception of how abuse should be handled.

But I don't agree that nine years ago was prior to this taking place. As I just said, the pre school scandals happened in the 80s, and they happened precisely because of the culture of protection rather than hushing up things like sex abuse was in place. Fifty years ago, things were different. But not 9.

MacQueary is now staying home from an upcoming game due to multiple death threats made to the school. Of course, this is terrible. The guy shouldn't be having his life threatened.

Still, quotes from his players are rather disgusting:

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...ebraska-game/1

Quote:

Earlier in the day, players expressed support for McQueary. "He's handled it very well. You would've thought nothing had ever happened ... like that situation never came up," cornerback Stephon Morris said.

I love how the fact that he's being admired for his ability to not seem bothered by his complicency in child rape.

Quote:

"I want him out there. We need him out there. ... He has a good heart. A lot of people probably thought he could've done more, but he did what he could."

No, he most certainly did not did what he could. He did what he wanted to, which was the absolute minimum, then washed his hands of it.

I'm pretty surprised he hasn't been fired yet, but I find it likely he'll resign under pressure if not fired. I suppose we'll have to see though.

This was also in the comments section. I don't think they really should dismantle the football team for havng opinions, but I have to say I'm sympathetic to their sentiments:

Quote:

The immoral and unethical culture within the PSU football team is disgusting. Dissolve and dismantle their team immediately. Send all of the players to ethics classes- and fire every coach!

Though I do appreciate the fact that for players, it is much more like a family to them, and their instinct is to protect their own. I don't necessarily blame them for standing by Mike. I'm sure he means a lot to them. But they really should not be making public statements defending the guy and singing his accolades.

halides1 · 11th November 2011, 06:56 AM

It is unclear to me how Paterno and McQueary should have known that the AD did not call the cops. The 1998 investigation did not lead to an indictment, after all, and Paterno and McQueary might have assumed that the same thing happened in 2002. Or is it the consensus here that Paterno or McQueary should have called the cops weeks or months later to make sure that an investigation was ongoing?

bigred · 11th November 2011, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by halides1

Number Six,

President Richard Broadhead of Duke University cancelled two games of lacrosse, then cancelled the rest of the season and fired the coach (a fine man by all accounts), all because of an alleged rape that could not possibly have happened. It was a bad decision at the time, and one that looks worse in retrospect. In this case the allegations are much more credible, but canceling games would punish the players (who are entirely innocent).
ETA
The two situations are very different, but I would suggest that it is better to think a decision about canceling games through carefully before doing it.

....but let's not think twice about firing a coach of 60+ years who has done immeasurable good for the school and community based on allegations and accusations about someone not under his employ which haven't even gone to court yet. Whoo hoo the godss will surely be happy with that sacrifice. Well the mob at least. Pass the torch n pitchforks.

Marquis de Carabas · 11th November 2011, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by halides1

It is unclear to me how Paterno and McQueary should have known that the AD did not call the cops. The 1998 investigation did not lead to an indictment, after all, and Paterno and McQueary might have assumed that the same thing happened in 2002. Or is it the consensus here that Paterno or McQueary should have called the cops weeks or months later to make sure that an investigation was ongoing?

It's still unclear to me what Paterno knew and when he knew it. According to him, McQueary didn't give any details, only saying "something inappropriate" occurred. So I'm not part of any consensus about what he should have done. I'd have to know what he knew to make a judgment on that.

McQueary, however, saw a child being raped. He should not have wondered at all if the AD had informed the cops, because he should have done that himself.

And shame on his father, as well, for not telling him that.

bigred · 11th November 2011, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Mary_H

The culture of protectors is becoming more powerful against the culture of abusers because of increased knowledge, education, media exposure and the internet. It's a great change for the better. To say, though, that we know how outspoken we would have been nine years ago or twenty years ago is kind of like a young woman who says she "doesn't believe in feminism," because she doesn't realize her now-automatic rights were hard-earned.

Good point/post and a ray of positive hope in all this darkness. It would seem (I hope) we're at least headed in the correct direction.

Resume · 11th November 2011, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by bigred

....but let's not think twice about firing a coach of 60+ years who has done immeasurable good for the school and community based on allegations and accusations about someone not under his employ which haven't even gone to court yet. Whoo hoo the godss will surely be happy with that sacrifice. Well the mob at least. Pass the torch n pitchforks.

If you haven't read the grand jury testimony, I suggest you do so; if you have, and you can still post up this JoePa sycophancy, you're unreachable.

10th November 2011, 07:23 PM	#321
Ysidro I'm watching you Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,334	Just saw a bug on TV for the nightly news. McQueary won't be at the game, but I don't know more than that.
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10th November 2011, 07:53 PM	#323
NotJesus Unsaviory Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: LA Posts: 5,474	Originally Posted by Ysidro Just saw a bug on TV for the nightly news. McQueary won't be at the game, but I don't know more than that. More here. Apparently, they're concerned for his safety after receiving "multiple threats." No plans to fire him (but that could change). Also, Paterno's advisors have reached out to an attoney but Paterno hasn't met with him yet and no retainer has been signed.
	__________________ I have now reread what I've just written, and I see that I'm much more intelligent than what I've written. How does it come about that what an intelligent man expresses is much stupider than what remains inside him? -Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Adolescent

10th November 2011, 07:59 PM	#324
Ysidro I'm watching you Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,334	I don't know why they don't just cancel the game at this point. Of course, if I had my way the entire program would be gutted. Maybe they could use some of the money they'd save for the victims.
Ysidro I'm watching you Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,334	__________________ This is a sig file. Does anyone even read this stuff?

10th November 2011, 08:12 PM	#325
NotJesus Unsaviory Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: LA Posts: 5,474	Originally Posted by Ysidro I don't know why they don't just cancel the game at this point. Of course, if I had my way the entire program would be gutted. Maybe they could use some of the money they'd save for the victims. Big-time college football is a huge money-maker. How do you think guys like Paterno get so powerful to begin with?
	__________________ I have now reread what I've just written, and I see that I'm much more intelligent than what I've written. How does it come about that what an intelligent man expresses is much stupider than what remains inside him? -Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Adolescent

10th November 2011, 08:32 PM	#326
Ysidro I'm watching you Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,334	Originally Posted by NotJesus Big-time college football is a huge money-maker. How do you think guys like Paterno get so powerful to begin with? I'm from Pennsylvania. I have family members who are Penn State grads. Believe me, I know.
Ysidro I'm watching you Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 5,334	__________________ This is a sig file. Does anyone even read this stuff?

10th November 2011, 07:53 PM	#322
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,369	Originally Posted by Redtail Reports of JoePa getting a lawyer has sparked a slew of rumors about what he knew/did. That's too bad because Joe would be an idiot if he didn't lawyer up, no matter what he knew and when he knew it. It is just a good sense move to protect himself.

10th November 2011, 09:21 PM	#327
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	I'm not trying to excuse Penn State, but it wouldn't surprise me if this had happened at any super big football school. I don't think the difference between Penn State and other super big football schools is the willingness to do whatever it takes to protect the reputation of The Institution (the super big football program in this case) from harm. Rather I think the difference was happening to have something so nasty (Sandusky) to protect the reputation from. And I also think the same thing goes for McQueary, the guy that saw the act in person. This is a guy that was low on the totem pole if a high prestige institution and witnessed something that he knew could harm the institution and his first instinct was to report the event to the authorities inside the institution rather than larger societal institutions. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do but I'm just saying I suspect it's a more common attitude than people might think.
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017

10th November 2011, 09:21 PM	#328
NotJesus Unsaviory Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: LA Posts: 5,474	Originally Posted by Ysidro I'm from Pennsylvania. I have family members who are Penn State grads. Believe me, I know. OK. Then I don't know why you think they'd save money by gutting the program.
	__________________ I have now reread what I've just written, and I see that I'm much more intelligent than what I've written. How does it come about that what an intelligent man expresses is much stupider than what remains inside him? -Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Adolescent

10th November 2011, 09:26 PM	#329
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,307	Originally Posted by SezMe That's too bad because Joe would be an idiot if he didn't lawyer up, no matter what he knew and when he knew it. It is just a good sense move to protect himself. Exactly. I'm honestly surprised it took this long.
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,307	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

10th November 2011, 10:58 PM	#330
ProBonoShill Muse Join Date: May 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 920	Originally Posted by NotJesus OK. Then I don't know why you think they'd save money by gutting the program. Me either. http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Sports/...omething-wrong Quote: College football is a $3 billion industry, and Penn State at the top in both earnings and profit for the Big Ten Conference. According to Forbes, Penn State generated $70.2 million in football revenue and $50.4 million in profit for the 2009 season. The athletic department pocketed more than half that, $26.4 million. The think the bolded part might have a little to do with why the shower incident was swept under the rug and the initial charges against Sandusky years ago were mysteriously dropped.

11th November 2011, 05:32 AM	#331
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,538	Originally Posted by Mary_H This is an excellent essay, too. THE NITTANY LIARS Penn State Flagged for Illegal Procedure No, actually, it's not. It's a piss poor hack piece written by some nobody schmuck portraying the mob mentality so dominating these discussions and attitudes now, full of accusations and witch-burning attitudes and rather lacking on facts. Not that most care about such things right now. Originally Posted by Foolmewunz You'll have to show evidence that Paterno thought someone else was handling it. So much for innocent until proven guilty eh? But OK: it is a matter of record that he reported it to the AD, which is where the responsibility to handle it from there lies. Quote: And then you'll have to show evidence that he had no vision, hearing or sensibility because he seems to have not noticed that the police didn't show up on campus. No I won't, nor would he. Can you really not see how ridiculous that is? You seem to really literally think Paterno is "the" God. Apparently this will come as a shock, but Paterno cannot and does not know or see every single thing that happens on every square inch of that town, FYI. Quote: He's a football coach, not law enforcement, judge and jury. Hey you got something right. Originally Posted by Stacko It certainly seems like they're head hunting when Joe Paterno is fired and Mike McQueary whose inactions I find more reprehensible than Joe's hasn't been fired yet. Hey somebody gets it, thank you. Yep. McQueary wasn't nearly a big enough fish to fry. Paterno's axing was to satisfy the mob's desire for blood and hopefully take a lot of heat off of them by "doing something." So what if it's the wrong thing? Nobody cares. Just GET SOMEBODY. Brilliant. Originally Posted by Stacko If they wait till the end of the season to clean house because they're in contention for the national championship, People can't even get this straight. Not that I think it really matters much if at all, there is realistically no way they have a shot at the title. FYI. Originally Posted by The Shrike While I understand where you're coming from, it's difficult to appreciate unless you've lived there how loved and revered JoePa is in that community and by those students. It sounds crazy that a feeling of "family" can be generated on a campus of 40,000, but that really is the case there, and JoePa is the patriarch of that family. When a family member takes heat for something, your first instinct is to rally around that person. Picture how you might respond if your dad or your grandpa was embroiled in a controversy. You'd do what you could to support the person you love, at least initially. EXACTLY. Thank you. I have put this to others and rarely get a response, let alone an honest one, ie: if (for ex) your father was accused of knowing about an act like this and did nothing and was getting ripped left and right, what would you do? Assume they are right and join in or defend your dad? What if it was "only" a beloved uncle or grandfather? I think we all know the answer.
	Last edited by bigred; 11th November 2011 at 05:34 AM.

11th November 2011, 05:35 AM	#332
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,053	Originally Posted by bigred So much for innocent until proven guilty eh? Perhaps you didn't notice, but the JREF is not a court of law. You didn't read the Grand Jury report, did you?

11th November 2011, 05:40 AM	#333
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,538	Originally Posted by Zelenius It makes me wonder if any of these rioting students bothered to read the Grand Jury transcript. It seems that very few of them did or if they did they refused to believe it. The university has a bad enough reputation already without students protesting and rioting to support a child rape enabler. It will take almost forever for this institution's reputation to recover, and that is based on what we already know. A lot more dirt is sure to come out with the Feds getting involved, the trustees conducting their own investigation and the upcoming trial of Sandusky. This train-wreck will only get worse. As an aside, I never quite understood why so many people think of accomplished athletes or successful coaches as "heroes". The naive all too often equate success with goodness or high moral character. I can understand Paterno being admired for his success, but I cannot understand this "living legend" God-like status he has at the school. The students there act like he can walk on water or raise the dead, even after being exposed as a mere mortal of questionable character. If I had a child who wanted to attend college, I'd recommend he or she stay away from any college that turned its students into lemming like cult-members over something as frivolous as football. I admit I have trouble understanding this pervasive quasi-religious football culture at so many American universities. Then again, I didn't go to college. Lots of good info here.

11th November 2011, 05:41 AM	#334
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,783	Originally Posted by bigred ...snip.... EXACTLY. Thank you. I have put this to others and rarely get a response, let alone an honest one, ie: if (for ex) your father was accused of knowing about an act like this and did nothing and was getting ripped left and right, what would you do? Assume they are right and join in or defend your dad? What if it was "only" a beloved uncle or grandfather? I think we all know the answer. I would examine the evidence available and then make my mind up. If I thought a member of my family or circle of friends had responded as was described in the Grand Jury paper I would be more angry than I would on learning of a similar set of circumstances involving a work colleague.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

11th November 2011, 05:44 AM	#335
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,538	Originally Posted by The Shrike It's the way he coached and ran that team as a family. Very few programs achieve that level of big-time football success with such a high level of academic success. Skip class? You're benched. Fail a class? Benched, or off the team. Want your name on your jersey? Go somewhere else; we're a team. The whole "We are Penn State" thing came from an incident in which the team was set to play in the segregated South and one or more of their African American players were taking heat. The team's response was that all of them, black and white, were integral to that team identity. It was a gutsy show of solidarity against institutionalized racism. Through the years, Joe could've made tons more money. He could've recruited better athletes and won more championships. But he had a love of that community - to which he's donated millions - and a dedication to honor first, and winning second. That's why it's so painful now to learn that in this critical instance Joe's moral compass sent him to the Bermuda Triangle. He really is a superb human being, but in this case he flat out failed to live up to anything near his own code of honor. That's the tragic irony and the cognitive dissonance here. Well said, thanks. He is certainly not faultless here and he knows and has said as much; his punishment is far more than a sad ending to an unmatched and otherwise extremely honorable career. It's living with knowing he could have done more.

11th November 2011, 05:48 AM	#336
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,538	Originally Posted by Darat I would examine the evidence available and then make my mind up. If I thought a member of my family or circle of friends had responded as was described in the Grand Jury paper I would be more angry than I would on learning of a similar set of circumstances involving a work colleague. Good idea, although I'm betting initially you would assume innocence and need one heckuva a case and a LOT of evidence to be swayed otherwise. And there is little evidence in this right now. There are accusations and testimonials only. Strong stuff but IMO not nearly enough to BANG stop or I'll shoot. I just think it would have been nice/advisable to have this go to court and KNOW what's what before people started throwing molotov cocktails every which way.

11th November 2011, 05:49 AM	#337
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,783	Originally Posted by bigred Well said, thanks. He is certainly not faultless here and he knows and has said as much; his punishment is far more than a sad ending to an unmatched and otherwise extremely honorable career. It's living with knowing he could have done more. He has been in a position of knowing he could have done more for the last (around) 10 years so I don't see why it should now start being a punishment?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

11th November 2011, 05:49 AM	#338
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,538	Originally Posted by Resume I'm not sure, but to me a superb human being might be moved to get off his ass and go investigate when it's reported that one of his staff Sandusky was not one of this staff. oops, sorry, I threw another fact in there. I keep forgetting they don't matter in this issue.

11th November 2011, 05:53 AM	#339
tyr_13 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Falconer, NY Posts: 9,662	Originally Posted by bigred Sandusky was not one of this staff. oops, sorry, I threw another fact in there. I keep forgetting they don't matter in this issue. An irrelevant fact.
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

11th November 2011, 05:54 AM	#340
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,783	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha ...snip... I agree. My problem hasn't been with any of this, but the way people have been acting like his failing was some unthinkably extreme character deficiency. My real position is that human nature is horrible, from our rational moral principle perspective. This man's character is no more scummy than one's neighbour, who honestly is probably sitting on a similar story about Uncle Joe. And by "no more" I mean just as scummy, just under the right bizarre influences. ...snip... That's the point I was making earlier when I said I could understand why he did not take immediate action when he saw the child being raped and I accept that is how humans can react in such stressful circumstances. But that only covers the immediate reaction, from what others have posted it seems that for years after witnessing the child being raped he would have seen the rapist with young children. Given that I do think it is right to conclude that to not have taken further action over that timespan is a character flaw.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

11th November 2011, 05:55 AM	#341
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,538	Originally Posted by AlBell Wow. What caliber weapons do you folks carry? On the internet, everone is Bruce Lee with an uzi. It is soooo easy to sit here all comfy behind a computer with the luxury of hindsight and chit chatter away about I woulda done the exact right thing at the exact right time blah blah blah. But when something this shocking blindsides you in an instant, FYI it might not be so easy/simple and being human you might not take the best path. I do not excuse anyone in this situation who didn't, btw. Just something to think about.

11th November 2011, 05:57 AM	#342
Schrodinger's Cat Guest Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,499	Originally Posted by sadhatter This reminds me of a situation that happened to me a while ago that shows the apathy of even the police. ( warning, read completely , for my sake, lol.) It was new years and me and some friends were at the bar, a female made her way over and started to hit on the lot of us ( 3 gents in total.) , one friend was not into anything of that nature, but me and the other were good to go. Now she was drunk, but no more than us, ( or so we thought) and she was rather up front about what she was looking for. It was snowy , terrible, and none of us had coats ( and i found my cab money has disapeared.). So we started a rather long walk across town. Now half way there she starts acting very erratic, getting intensely angry , not being able to stand, then getting really happy ( also unable to stand.), keep in mind it was around 2 am, so frequently we were telling her to not yell so loud, etc. Now, i inquired and found out that she did large doeses of prescription drugs , and they had just started to kick in. So the plan changed from what it was , to getting her somewhere so she didn't wander off in the snow and die. Now, while i know we were doing good, think of what this would look like to onlookers. 3 gents, seemingly dragging a very inebriated girl around saying things to the nature of " Just shut up" ( in relation to her loud screaming of odd, or vulgar things.). I personally thought we would get stopped at some point and have a long awkward explination. But not so much, people looked, some people almost came over, but no one did anything. Even when we walked by a female cop, and she jokingly said, loudly something about being kidnapped. The cop was about to come over, but decided against it. I just don't get it, if the people were wrong, it would just have been a laugh, nothing big except for some wasted time, and awkwardness. But what if we were planning something bad and taking her against her will? ( which, it really would have seemed.) Sometimes i just don't get people. ( as a post script, upon getting back to my friends place, she proceeded to puke violently, and then, of all things, still try and push for the threeway. Seeing as she was completely out of her mind, though very energetic, i spent a couple of hours convincing her it was a bad idea, and that , at least, she should wait to sober up a bit to make that decision. Thankfully that pissed her , off and she ended up getting a safe way home with our third buddy. ) hmmm, you know, this would actually be a problem for me. I live bordered by Boston College on one side of my neighborhood and Boston University and the other, on the main street, and in a bar heavy neighborhood. And just in general, I live in Boston, which is filled with college students, Irish, and Italians. If I stopped a group of people everytime I saw some guys dragging around a drunk girl shouting vulgarities, that's all I'd be doing every Friday and Saturday night.
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11th November 2011, 06:00 AM	#344
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,783	Originally Posted by bigred On the internet, everone is Bruce Lee with an uzi. It is soooo easy to sit here all comfy behind a computer with the luxury of hindsight and chit chatter away about I woulda done the exact right thing at the exact right time blah blah blah. But when something this shocking blindsides you in an instant, FYI it might not be so easy/simple and being human you might not take the best path. I do not excuse anyone in this situation who didn't, btw. Just something to think about. He has had years in which to take action - he choose not to.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

11th November 2011, 06:07 AM	#345
varwoche Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 7,232	Originally Posted by bigred Sandusky was not one of this staff. oops, sorry, I threw another fact in there. I keep forgetting they don't matter in this issue. As I understand, he was on the staff when the first incident happened. BTW I'm amused by this part, because I don't have the impression that you're fact-oriented. Just the opposite actually.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot (and/or Fat Jack)

11th November 2011, 06:13 AM	#346
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,520	Oh, those poor ~~kids~~ men. So shocked and disoriented by what was seen and reported that they could hardly get it together to plan their 81 football games between the incident and last weekend. I just feel horrible for them. What is this world coming to? Won't somebody think of the ~~children~~ football coaches?
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele Don't you wish someone had slapped baby Hitler really really hard? [i] Dr. Buzzo 02/13 [i]

11th November 2011, 06:20 AM	#347
Schrodinger's Cat Guest Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,499	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz Oh, those poor ~~kids~~ men. So shocked and disoriented by what was seen and reported that they could hardly get it together to plan their 81 football games between the incident and last weekend. I just feel horrible for them. What is this world coming to? Won't somebody think of the ~~children~~ football coaches? Couldn't have possibly put it better than this.
Schrodinger's Cat Guest Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,499

11th November 2011, 06:21 AM	#348
The Shrike Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: USA Posts: 1,809	Read an allusion to an anecdote about McQueary that he once dove in to break up a knife fight on campus. (Sorry, the link didn't work so I couldn't follow to the source.) I was also watching footage of him on the sidelines this morning. Mike is a huge guy and full of fire and certainly doesn't seem like someone easily intimidated. Whatever kept him from acting that fateful night, I can't imagine it had anything to do with physical fear of Sandusky.

11th November 2011, 06:25 AM	#349
Schrodinger's Cat Guest Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,499	Originally Posted by bigred On the internet, everone is Bruce Lee with an uzi. It is soooo easy to sit here all comfy behind a computer with the luxury of hindsight and chit chatter away about I woulda done the exact right thing at the exact right time blah blah blah. But when something this shocking blindsides you in an instant, FYI it might not be so easy/simple and being human you might not take the best path. I do not excuse anyone in this situation who didn't, btw. Just something to think about. I am loathe to bring up this point, yet again, but what kind of person are you that you think it takes some mighty Xena Warrior princess to report rape to the police? Both instantly, when you see what's happening, and then again over the course of ten years. I really am just shocked at people like you who are willing to classify doing something this simple as heroic, requiring a toughened Marine. This was not an ambiguous situation in which the clear right thing to do was not apparent. This is not a situation which would have put someone in any risk of harm. Calling the police is not hard. It's not. Stop acting like anyone who says that making a one minute telephone call is an easy thing any person acting with any moral compass and who wasn't a complete and total apathetic coward would do is being presumptuous. Stop acting like this was a normal, human thing to do and that anyone who claims otherwise is posing as some brave Hercules. Screaming at an unarmed rapist to stop is not courageous, particularly when you outmatch him physically. Going for help immediately, barring that, is not courageous. Picking up the phone to call the cops over the course of ten years is not courageous. It is basic human decency and the least we should expect from anyone who wishes to take part in a civilized society. The monsters will always be out there, and the only thing we have is the assurance that people who aren't monsters aren't just going to let them act as they will. Now this is really the last time I will speak on the matter, but bigred, your expectations of an acceptable reaction to a situation in which another person is threatened is repugnant to me. MacQueary and his father knew of an immediate threat. They did nothing to stop it and save that child, not even a phone call. But even worse, they sat on it for ten years and let the victim count continue to mount. Full stop.
Schrodinger's Cat Guest Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,499	Last edited by Schrodinger's Cat; 11th November 2011 at 06:36 AM.

11th November 2011, 06:29 AM	#350
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,538	Originally Posted by Stellafane But with each additional detail, the story just got worse and worse. For instance, it wasn't just some random student, it was a member of the coaching staff and thus someone Paterno presumedly knew and trusted. Not to nit-pick but he was not a member of the coaching staff at the time. As to how much he knew/trusted the kid, we don't know. It is reasonable to assume Paterno knew/trusted Sandusky a lot more and so reasonably questioned the accusation. Quote: Sandusky had apparently been seen performing oral sex on an 8 year old back in 1998. Key word: apparently. Nothing came of it - who knows, it could have been a cover-up or something similarly insidious - or it could have been there was no evidence or even testimony to pursue it further. Should we put everyone in front of a firing squad every time accusations are made despite a lack of evidence? Sorry that isn't how our system works, and rightfully so. Again it's easy to throw up things like that in hindsight. Quote: The bolded parts above cast Paterno's actions (or lack thereof) in a very different and much harsher light. A perfectly plausible explanation -- indeed, I think the only viable one at this point -- is that what went through Paterno's mind was something akin to "Holy crap, Sandusky's at it again -- and this time PSU is complicit because we didn't report him back in 1998!!" No, it's not the only viable one, but I agree at that point the 98 thing should have been in Paterno's mind and he should have taken stronger measures. Again and as I have said all along, I do not call Paterno faultless. But I am unconvinced he "knew" (or felt reasonably sure) these allegations were true. The thing is we don't know. But people aren't interested in that. They want to assume the worst and extract pints of blood whever they can regardless of actual facts. That is what is annoying the bleep out of me. Quote: So no, I no longer have a great deal of sympathy for Joe Paterno at this point, and I think the disgust directed at him is entirely justified. At best, I consider him a largely (or formerly) decent, but deeply flawed individual who lost all perspective in a terribly horrific way. I take zero joy in his demise (quite the contrary), but I cannot think of him as any sort of victim either. I disagree, to an extent. I think much some disgust directed at him is merited, but with many, esp those who have no clue about him or all he has done (and I am not talking wins on the field) is over the top out of ignorance and blind rage.

11th November 2011, 06:32 AM	#351
DJW Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 581	She shoots she scores!!! And the crowd goes wild...

11th November 2011, 06:38 AM	#352
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,538	Originally Posted by Noztradamus At the time he was a 59 year old guy a few inches taller than a weasel http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2011/foo...paterno-p1.jpg Against the same weasel, Mike McQueary is the freaking Hulk, half Sandy's age, only 3 years out of his playing career http://media.philly.com/images/300*3...cyjoe10z-a.JPG But, no soul. You and others miss the point there. It isn't "McQueary should have kicked his butt!" Well duh. It's "I would have kicked his butt!" Yeah, some would I'm sure. Many would have at least intervened in some way. But some I don't doubt are tough talkers tapping away on the internet but if actually faced with that situation might have or would have not. And I'm not saying they are cowards per se. But something that extreme can freak a person out quite easily and it's difficult to know exactly how one would act, while it's extremely easy to talk tough about hypotheticals. PS and oh btw for those dumb enough to make this reach, I AM NOT DEFENDING MCQUEARY AT ALL. At the very very least he should have called the cops right then and yes ideally he should have kicked the living bleep out of Sandusky or at least got him off the kid and got the kid out of there. But - one more time - it's very easy to say all this in hindsight typing it on a PC. In real life, not so easy/simple per se.

11th November 2011, 06:43 AM	#353
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Originally Posted by bigred PS and oh btw for those dumb enough to make this reach, I AM NOT DEFENDING MCQUEARY AT ALL. At the very very least he should have called the cops right then and yes ideally he should have kicked the living bleep out of Sandusky or at least got him off the kid and got the kid out of there. But - one more time - it's very easy to say all this in hindsight typing it on a PC. In real life, not so easy/simple per se. I'll grant that for the shock of the moment, immediate reaction failure to respond. Sure, ideally he should have rushed Sandusky and sat on him til the cops showed up, but freaking out, leaving and calling the cops the next day would have been understandable. Or the next day.... Or the next... Or the next... Or the next... Or the next... Or the next... Or the next... (There's over 3,000 of these left to go. Let me know if the message sinks in so I can stop before then.) Or the next...
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

11th November 2011, 06:45 AM	#354
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,538	Originally Posted by rpmcmurphy It's easy to say how easily we would have done more than McQueary did in that instance and certainly I would like to think that I would have done more in that situation as well. Unfortunately, there are countless studies that have shown human behavior to not be what we would expect (Asch, Milgram, Zimbardo, etc.). Have you seen the ABC show What Would You Do? Time and again people ignore people that are in distress. It seems to be the exception rather than the rule that people will step in and help. What about the Kitty Genovese case? While some of those facts have been called into question, this woman was being murdered and no one came to help. I actually think McQueary's initial response of going to Paterno was understandable. The fact he reported it at all is a bit of an anomaly. My bigger problem is their lack of follow up after that time. That Paterno had to have known of the 1998 investigation of Sandusky and didn't do more after the 2002 incident is reprehensible. That Paterno AND McQueary could see Sandusky with children ever again and not follow up infuriates me. I feel that McQueary should be gone with Paterno, not for his initial response but for his complacency after the fact. Just read this after my post above. Refreshing. Thank you.

11th November 2011, 06:55 AM	#355
Schrodinger's Cat Guest Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,499	Originally Posted by Mary_H It is The culture of protectors is becoming more powerful against the culture of abusers because of increased knowledge, education, media exposure and the internet. It's a great change for the better. To say, though, that we know how outspoken we would have been nine years ago or twenty years ago is kind of like a young woman who says she "doesn't believe in feminism," because she doesn't realize her now-automatic rights were hard-earned. In general, I agree. I think it's very important that society has developed a more culture of protection than a culture of abusers. Of course, this can backfire with overzealous prosecution despite no actual evidence of abuse, such as the pre school insanity in the 80s. But generally speaking, this is surely a good thing that resulted through a change in the cultural perception of how abuse should be handled. But I don't agree that nine years ago was prior to this taking place. As I just said, the pre school scandals happened in the 80s, and they happened precisely because of the culture of protection rather than hushing up things like sex abuse was in place. Fifty years ago, things were different. But not 9. MacQueary is now staying home from an upcoming game due to multiple death threats made to the school. Of course, this is terrible. The guy shouldn't be having his life threatened. Still, quotes from his players are rather disgusting: http://content.usatoday.com/communit...ebraska-game/1 Quote: Earlier in the day, players expressed support for McQueary. "He's handled it very well. You would've thought nothing had ever happened ... like that situation never came up," cornerback Stephon Morris said. I love how the fact that he's being admired for his ability to not seem bothered by his complicency in child rape. Quote: "I want him out there. We need him out there. ... He has a good heart. A lot of people probably thought he could've done more, but he did what he could." No, he most certainly did not did what he could. He did what he wanted to, which was the absolute minimum, then washed his hands of it. I'm pretty surprised he hasn't been fired yet, but I find it likely he'll resign under pressure if not fired. I suppose we'll have to see though. This was also in the comments section. I don't think they really should dismantle the football team for havng opinions, but I have to say I'm sympathetic to their sentiments: Quote: The immoral and unethical culture within the PSU football team is disgusting. Dissolve and dismantle their team immediately. Send all of the players to ethics classes- and fire every coach! Though I do appreciate the fact that for players, it is much more like a family to them, and their instinct is to protect their own. I don't necessarily blame them for standing by Mike. I'm sure he means a lot to them. But they really should not be making public statements defending the guy and singing his accolades.
Schrodinger's Cat Guest Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,499	Last edited by Schrodinger's Cat; 11th November 2011 at 07:06 AM.

11th November 2011, 06:56 AM	#356
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,526	How proactive should they have been? It is unclear to me how Paterno and McQueary should have known that the AD did not call the cops. The 1998 investigation did not lead to an indictment, after all, and Paterno and McQueary might have assumed that the same thing happened in 2002. Or is it the consensus here that Paterno or McQueary should have called the cops weeks or months later to make sure that an investigation was ongoing?
halides1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 5,526	__________________ “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” – Winston Churchill