Animal emotions including depression and suicide.

Cainkane1 · 17th November 2011, 07:27 AM

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._suicide_.html

I once went on a trip around the USA that lasted eight weeks. I came home and my dog was there. He was eckstatic. Getting in my face and and whimpering, seemingly overcome with emotion. I have to assume he was sad during long absense. He obviously hadn't committed suicide but animals do seem to have the same emotions humans do. Apparently even animals such as birds have these emotions.

This is why I don't hunt.

Number Six · 18th November 2011, 01:10 AM

I think there are two things here. One is how much emotions animals have. The other is how much emotion humans perceive animals as having. And of course each of those varies by animal and to some degree by human.

I suspect that humans perceive dogs as having more emotion than most if not all other animals, including other humans. But do they? I don't know. I suspect not but maybe it depends on how you define emotions. As far as being closer to humans in intellect goes there are lots of animals ahead of dogs in the line so maybe they are ahead of dogs in the emotion line too.

I've read that dolphins are very intelligent. And they jump out of the water now and then and exhibit intelligence and all that stuff. But do they ever exhibit as much emotion when you first see them after you've been awhile away as do dogs? Dogs are crazy, nutso on that front, which is why humans like them so much, but I'm not sure that is dogs exhibiting emotion so much as it is humans perceiving it.

Pulvinar · 18th November 2011, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Number Six

I think there are two things here. One is how much emotions animals have. The other is how much emotion humans perceive animals as having. And of course each of those varies by animal and to some degree by human.

Except how could there be a *real* amount of emotions independent of how we decide to measure them? I suspect you mean perceived by the animal itself.

Scott Haley · 18th November 2011, 08:11 AM

When wolves leave their puppies alone, it's usually because they're off hunting. When the adults come back, the puppies greet them enthusiastically to get their attention. Then they try to lick the adults' faces, to get them to regurgitate some food. Dogs retain puppy instincts throughout life.

Despite that, I love to be joyously greeted by a dog.

Number Six · 18th November 2011, 08:47 AM

The pup licking the face of the mother dog is an example of our perception being different from what is going on. When they do it in the wild we say the pups are trying to get the mother dog (or wolf, whatever) to regurgitate food. When they do it to us it's suddenly because the dog loves us. But the drive for the dog is the same either way. Despite the fact that its human master never responds to the face licking by regurgitating food, the dog will keep licking its masters face for years. The dogs are driven to lick faces because it got their ancestors food and they do it now regardless of whether it gets them food. And maybe even you could say that dogs are driven to lick human faces because humans find that behavior endearing and as a result they give the dogs more food, so licking human faces gets dogs food too. That doesn't make it an emotion though.

As far as there being real emotion independent of how we decide to measure it, I'm not sure what that's getting at. If you made a machine that behaved like a dog there would be no emotion at all. OTOH a dog does whatever it does and has whatever emotion it has. But the behavior is the same either way. Or maybe two people have the same amount of emotion about something but one exhibits it and the other keeps it inside. To an observer they have different amounts of emotions but in reality they have the same amount.

I guess maybe it all comes down to how emotions are defined. If human brains create human emotions what are dog brains capable of creating relative to human brains? I don't know exactly.

coalesce · 18th November 2011, 08:49 AM

I have no doubt that all the cats I've owned in my life (six so far) have definite intelligence, emotion and personalities. They may not have the tools to fully express themselves the same way humans do, or it may be that I may not have all the tools to perceive their emotions the way another cat may. They are, however, able to express their feelings to me, be it happy, sad, lonely or angry (such as when my former cat Vinny peed in my ex-wife's shoes because they really didn't like one another.) Either way, I feel my cat Clancy and I on the same page.

Michael

Number Six · 18th November 2011, 09:01 AM

I agree that animals have some of those but what I don't know is how much of them they have relative to humans.

It's interesting to that that if we can have way more intelligence, emotions, yadda yadda than do animals then there's no reason there can't exist creatures that have way more of those things than us.

EHocking · 18th November 2011, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by coalesce

I have no doubt that all the cats I've owned in my life (six so far) have definite intelligence, emotion and personalities. They may not have the tools to fully express themselves the same way humans do, or it may be that I may not have all the tools to perceive their emotions the way another cat may. They are, however, able to express their feelings to me, be it happy, sad, lonely or angry (such as when my former cat Vinny peed in my ex-wife's shoes because they really didn't like one another.) Either way, I feel my cat Clancy and I on the same page.

Michael

I'm with Scott Haley on this one.

The cat peeing in your wife's shoes could also be explained as a territorial reaction.

Cats mark their territory with urine and will urinate on items marked by another's scent - in this case, your wife and her shoes rather than another cat and a bush.

Attributing this to be similar to your human emotion towards your wife is not sound, IMO.

Skeptic Ginger · 18th November 2011, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Number Six

I think there are two things here. One is how much emotions animals have. The other is how much emotion humans perceive animals as having. And of course each of those varies by animal and to some degree by human.

I suspect that humans perceive dogs as having more emotion than most if not all other animals, including other humans. But do they? I don't know. I suspect not but maybe it depends on how you define emotions. As far as being closer to humans in intellect goes there are lots of animals ahead of dogs in the line so maybe they are ahead of dogs in the emotion line too.

I've read that dolphins are very intelligent. And they jump out of the water now and then and exhibit intelligence and all that stuff. But do they ever exhibit as much emotion when you first see them after you've been awhile away as do dogs? Dogs are crazy, nutso on that front, which is why humans like them so much, but I'm not sure that is dogs exhibiting emotion so much as it is humans perceiving it.

All one need do is observe these animals to answer your questions. People often take anti-anthropomorphizing much too far. It's a caution, not some absolute rule that says you can't interpret a wagging tail as an emotional response in a dog.

It may be difficult to recognize emotions in species that express them in ways much different than humans do. Octopi and cuttlefish, for example, may be expressing emotions through skin signals and it would be hard to know. However, one could with careful observation notice patterns and perhaps draw conclusions. But again, the octopus brain is so different from ours it is hard to say what such a brain experiences in the way of emotions. However, evolution tends to select certain patterns, eyesight, locomotion and so on. So it makes sense that emotions are naturally selected.

But as for the cat and dog, I've seen my cat looking for its kittens when it was time to take them away. It was upset regardless if the quality was the same as sadness we experience with loss.

But my dogs, there is no question they experience happiness, stubbornness and aggression.

Skeptic Ginger · 18th November 2011, 09:34 AM

I have never seen any evidence for animal suicide, however. And as for depression with a loss, just as with most humans, eventually we get over the worst of it and miss the person but stop grieving. With a rare exception, like the dog that waits daily in some spot for a deceased owner to return, I've not seen obviously depressed animals not counting those depressed by the cage they are confined to (an ongoing cause for sadness as opposed to a loss created sadness).

Jane Goodall documented depression in a chimpanzee who's mother died that led to the chimp's eventual death.

Skeptic Ginger · 18th November 2011, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by coalesce

...They are, however, able to express their feelings to me, ... (such as when my former cat Vinny peed in my ex-wife's shoes because they really didn't like one another.) ...

While I don't doubt the rest of your observations, this conclusion seems a stretch.

Dessi · 18th November 2011, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._suicide_.html

I once went on a trip around the USA that lasted eight weeks. I came home and my dog was there. He was eckstatic. Getting in my face and and whimpering, seemingly overcome with emotion. I have to assume he was sad during long absense. He obviously hadn't committed suicide but animals do seem to have the same emotions humans do. Apparently even animals such as birds have these emotions.

On the one hand, there's a class of skepticism that tends to deny that animals experience emotions beyond zombie like instinctual responses. On the other hand, psychologists have been designing animal models of clinical depression, psychologically disturbed animals with tendencies toward self-mutilation, learned helplessness, and so on for decades. There are also 1000s of experiments documenting the visible behavioral responses of addiction and withdrawal which can be severe enough that animals maim themselves.

Obviously animals have a complex mental life which includes emotional experiences.

Cheetah · 19th November 2011, 03:10 AM

The idea that animals are biological machines with a multitude of pre-programmed responses to different situations is an old and in my opinion very silly idea, it really makes no sense once you think about it. I don't know why its taken so long to start falling out of favor (Edit: That's actually a lie, I've got a fair idea

).

Sure, there are some higher order emotions that only make sense in a social context, which some animals might lack, but the basics are surely almost universal in at least mammals and birds (and quite possibly go even further back).

Emotions are a neat and simple way for evolution to 'get the job done', without a bunch of very complicated pre-programing. It is also a much more flexible and adaptable way of doing it.
Make a parent bird/animal love and care about their kids and they will do their best to raise them properly and protect them from harm. Evolution would quickly get stuck if it had to pre-program a response for every eventuality.

When an animal is in need of sustenance evolution makes them want to go to all the trouble of looking for and finding food, by making them feel hungry, I don't think too many would dispute this. The same goes for reproduction, pre-programming, not necessary, just make 'em horny, real horny

. As soon as love, anger, depression etc is mentioned, pertaining to animals, there seems to be some disconnect/denial, dunno why (Edit: Another one, I've got a fair idea).

I've seen many animals/birds get p'd-off and angry, throw a temper tantrum, or depressed when losing a friend. Sometimes it is clearly counterproductive in a supposed 'pre-programmed by evolution' sense. You definitely don't have to be intelligent to really feel hungry or angry or love or horny.

What would be a great mystery, would be if evolution did things completely differently for animals and then suddenly emotions popped up in the human animal (and all that supposed pre-programming suddenly disappeared), makes no sense.

dlorde · 19th November 2011, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by Cheetah

What would be a great mystery, would be if evolution did things completely differently for animals and then suddenly emotions popped up in the human animal (and all that supposed pre-programming suddenly disappeared), makes no sense.

Exactly.

Cainkane1 · 19th November 2011, 08:02 AM

Reading stories concerning being licked by dogs seem to mean they are merely trying to get food from whomever they are licking but my dog used to lick me after he had eaten. I gave him good dogfood and meat scraps. So if they lick your face after they get fed well what does that mean? I think puppy kisses after the puppy eats is akin to kissing.

Pulvinar · 19th November 2011, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

So if they lick your face after they get fed well what does that mean?

It means your face is now covered with bits of dog food.

What always amuses me is that many people can have insight into the internal states of animal brains, yet insist that machines couldn't have such states.

I Ratant · 19th November 2011, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Haley

When wolves leave their puppies alone, it's usually because they're off hunting. When the adults come back, the puppies greet them enthusiastically to get their attention. Then they try to lick the adults' faces, to get them to regurgitate some food. Dogs retain puppy instincts throughout life.

Despite that, I love to be joyously greeted by a dog.

.
I love that too!
I hate to see a nasty dog.
I have to presume the owner is equally nasty, or has no interest in the dog's wellbeing.
ST's dog is all over me when I got there.
There's some around here that come to greet me when I walk by.
Others that are really loud and nasty when inside their yards, but not so brave when outside, and really appreciate my putting them back inside, where they can be brave and loud again.

I Ratant · 19th November 2011, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Reading stories concerning being licked by dogs seem to mean they are merely trying to get food from whomever they are licking but my dog used to lick me after he had eaten. I gave him good dogfood and meat scraps. So if they lick your face after they get fed well what does that mean? I think puppy kisses after the puppy eats is akin to kissing.

.
A couple of the dogs I see when walking will lick my hand, although I've never fed them.

Steve001 · 19th November 2011, 10:48 AM

Rats studies done several years ago showed rats capable of laughing.
Chimpanzees also laugh. Dogs have a laugh of a sort when playing. It sounds like panting.

Number Six · 19th November 2011, 11:11 AM

This whole thing might be getting into the distinction between emotion and instinct and urge. Humans can love each other and then want to have sex to express it but can we be sure it's an expression of their emotion rather than just the filling of an urge? Maybe at some level there is no difference between the two.

I don't doubt that animals have some level of what humans call emotions but there are two difficulties I have with flat out stating what we see in animals is point blank emotion.

One if that dogs, for instance, exhibit a lot more of what we'd call emotion than other animals. That means either dogs have a lot more emotions than other animals, which seems odd, or we're observing what we see in dogs as a lot of emotion but at least some of which isn't emotion.

There are two parts to the second thing pertains to animal parents and offspring. Male animals run the gamut from getting the female pregnant and then leaving right away for good to staying to help raise the offspring all the way until the offspring are independent. Human males do this too, but that's all within the group of human males whereas with animals it's more like, all Male X animals leave right after copulation, all Male Y animals stick around to raise their young, etc. So if it's solely emotion driving them then it's strange that all Male X animals have no emotion with regards to their offspring while all Male Y animals have a lot of emotion towards them.

The second part to this second thing is that AFAIK animals mostly raise their young until the young are independent and then the young leave and that's it. The animal parent doesn't have the animal offspring over for Thanksgiving and hector them about when they're going to get some grandchildren. So if animal parents raise their offspring because they love them then the love seems to shut off when the offspring become independent.

TjW · 19th November 2011, 11:30 AM

Or possibly that dogs' expression of emotion is closer to ours, and thus more accessible to us.

Number Six · 19th November 2011, 11:51 AM

Okay, maybe that's a form of the first one I listed, that dogs exhibit more of what we call emotion than other animals, on our first glance that is, which is why we find them endearing, but that it's not really more emotion than other animals but just some we more perceive as more emotion. So maybe a rabbit has a lot of emotion inside it but we don't see it because mostly it just sits there.

TjW · 19th November 2011, 12:22 PM

Possibly.
But the conclusion you drew was that some of what we perceived as emotion in dogs was not emotion. Now, that could be true, but it doesn't necessarily follow from the fact that we perceive more emotional behaviors in dogs. It could be that all of those perceived emotional displays really are emotional displays. It could be that dogs have an even richer emotional life than humans, and we are unable, for whatever reason, to pick up on the subtle cues. This might explain why some people get unexpectedly bit.

meow · 19th November 2011, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Number Six

Okay, maybe that's a form of the first one I listed, that dogs exhibit more of what we call emotion than other animals, on our first glance that is, which is why we find them endearing, but that it's not really more emotion than other animals but just some we more perceive as more emotion. So maybe a rabbit has a lot of emotion inside it but we don't see it because mostly it just sits there.

almost every one of your posts is off the mark. we've been selecting dogs for specific traits for more than 30,000 years. we've been making them less wolf-like and less reptile-like the whole way through.

my dog doesn't lick me --ever; he's always happy to see me when i've been away even when his belly is stuffed full and he can't eat another bite.

--not only that but he insists on sleeping in the same room with me and if he doesn't get his way he'll cry all night. never heard of a lizard or rabbit insisting on sleeping with their owner.

Number Six · 19th November 2011, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by TjW

Possibly.
But the conclusion you drew was that some of what we perceived as emotion in dogs was not emotion. Now, that could be true, but it doesn't necessarily follow from the fact that we perceive more emotional behaviors in dogs. It could be that all of those perceived emotional displays really are emotional displays. It could be that dogs have an even richer emotional life than humans, and we are unable, for whatever reason, to pick up on the subtle cues. This might explain why some people get unexpectedly bit.

Yes but again that gets to, what is emotion. Maybe dogs have no emotional life at all and what we're seeing is something other than emotion and meanwhile turtles have the richest emotional life of any creature but it's emotion we can't see. It comes down to how emotion is defined, which I suspect has already been addressed by scientists.

Nursedan · 19th November 2011, 02:08 PM

Didn't read the article but did read the OP -

I saw my Grandpa's dog essentially kill itself. We were fishing on his lake and the dog (very old and getting sick) jumped into the water from the other side of the lake, about 300 feet from us. He could have walked around the lake and jumped in (or he could have not jumped in at all) but he decided to jump in the water far from where we could save him. He struggled for about 100 feet then we realized what was happening and he went under and floated to the surface. I have to say it seemed as if he knew exactly what he was doing.

Edit: Ok read the article. About what I thought it would be.

caniswalensis · 19th November 2011, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Scott Haley

When wolves leave their puppies alone, it's usually because they're off hunting. When the adults come back, the puppies greet them enthusiastically to get their attention. Then they try to lick the adults' faces, to get them to regurgitate some food. Dogs retain puppy instincts throughout life.

Despite that, I love to be joyously greeted by a dog.

If you really love it, you'd regurgitate.

Number Six · 19th November 2011, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by meow

almost every one of your posts is off the mark. we've been selecting dogs for specific traits for more than 30,000 years. we've been making them less wolf-like and less reptile-like the whole way through.

my dog doesn't lick me --ever; he's always happy to see me when i've been away even when his belly is stuffed full and he can't eat another bite.

--not only that but he insists on sleeping in the same room with me and if he doesn't get his way he'll cry all night. never heard of a lizard or rabbit insisting on sleeping with their owner.

Dogs are pack animals and want to be with their alpha dog. And just because they're full doesn't mean they'd say "You know, I'm full so I won't try to get food." When they not full and they lick your face I doubt they're thinking "I hope master regurgitates some food." They just do it. As I said in another post, if it were a conscious effort to get you to regurgitate food they'd stop eventually since people never regurgitate food for their dogs to eat.

Dogs lick places other than people's face though. I don't know that it's a sign of emotion or affection. It might a grooming think or something else.

Number Six · 19th November 2011, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Nursedan

I saw my Grandpa's dog essentially kill itself. We were fishing on his lake and the dog (very old and getting sick) jumped into the water from the other side of the lake, about 300 feet from us. He could have walked around the lake and jumped in (or he could have not jumped in at all) but he decided to jump in the water far from where we could save him. He struggled for about 100 feet then we realized what was happening and he went under and floated to the surface. I have to say it seemed as if he knew exactly what he was doing.

Dawgwin Award Winner.

I Ratant · 19th November 2011, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Nursedan

Didn't read the article but did read the OP -

I saw my Grandpa's dog essentially kill itself. We were fishing on his lake and the dog (very old and getting sick) jumped into the water from the other side of the lake, about 300 feet from us. He could have walked around the lake and jumped in (or he could have not jumped in at all) but he decided to jump in the water far from where we could save him. He struggled for about 100 feet then we realized what was happening and he went under and floated to the surface. I have to say it seemed as if he knew exactly what he was doing.

Edit: Ok read the article. About what I thought it would be.

.
What he was doing was probably something he'd done before.

Nursedan · 19th November 2011, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
What he was doing was probably something he'd done before.

Actually, this particular dog hadn't swam for years, being old and sick. I thought that as it was happening; that he was trying to reach us - but no, there didn't seem to be a reason for him jumping into the cold water (other than to end his life).

I'll add that before this experience I thought that humans were the only species aware of the fact that we will one day die. This experience made me question that.

Pup · 19th November 2011, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Number Six

The pup licking the face of the mother dog is an example of our perception being different from what is going on. When they do it in the wild we say the pups are trying to get the mother dog (or wolf, whatever) to regurgitate food. When they do it to us it's suddenly because the dog loves us. But the drive for the dog is the same either way. (snip)

I guess maybe it all comes down to how emotions are defined. If human brains create human emotions what are dog brains capable of creating relative to human brains? I don't know exactly.

I think that one can state the case either way: Either "emotions" lead to actions by which we can deduce what other humans/creatures feel. Or actions feel like they're driven by something we wrongly call "emotions" but they're really just stimulus-response behaviors.

Both explanations work equally well for humans or animals.

Once can say that pups don't really "love" their parents and licking is just a way to get food, but one can say the same thing about human children, that smiling or hugging parents isn't because they "love" them, it's a successfully bred-in way to get attention and care, spurred by certain brain activity that provokes the behavior.

The problem is that one can only experience what that brain activity "feels like" oneself. When a person remembers what it "feels like" to want to hug her mother in childhood, it "feels like" the thing that we label with the word "love."

So it really does come down to a definition of what an emotion is, and therefore how one can observe it objectively in other animals/humans, without relying on behavioral indicators, even in humans.

To greatly oversimplify... As an example, if an increase in adrenaline is the defining characteristic of the emotion "excitement" in humans, then by definition, any animal experiences the emotion of "excitement" when their body increases adrenalin, whether they're a mouse or a human.

If that's not a suitable definition, then it needs refined until whatever we're getting at is achieved. And I have a feeling that "what we're getting at" would go down the political path of animal rights very quickly, with headlines: "Scientists say cattle at slaughter houses feel same emotions as humans" or "Scientists say cattle cannot feel any emotions."

Cheetah · 19th November 2011, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Number Six

I don't doubt that animals have some level of what humans call emotions but there are two difficulties I have with flat out stating what we see in animals is point blank emotion.

A lot of people seem to agree that at least mammals do seem to have emotions, but what about birds? If they do then surely mammals have too.

Whenever I’ve lived in a place with a garden I periodically toss out a few handfuls of birdseed and I enjoy watching the interactions between the different birds that come to feed. The general trend seems to be that there is a lot of squabbling between members of the same species (especially males), but different species seem to mostly ignore each other, or at least stay out of each other’s way (with larger more aggressive species having the right of way).
On one occasion I had a bunch of Masked Weavers, Laughing Doves and a single young male Rock Pigeon feeding, all three species basically ignoring each other.
A while later another, female, Rock Pigeon arrived and started feeding. The male immediately showed interest and starting to follow her around, but alas she was not at all interested and just wanted to fill up on some seeds.
The male started strutting around her, puffing out his chest, crooning, bobbing his head and very much trying to impress her. She would just turn her back on him and continue pecking up seeds. This went on for a few minutes, the strutting, bobbing and crooning growing progressively more exaggerated. When he got too in her face she would fly up into a tree, he would follow, continuing his antics, she would fly down again and grab a couple of seeds before he’d be there again.
This happened repeatedly, until he was literally bouncing up and down, bowing down until his chin touched the ground, rearing up as high as possible, puffing out his chest and crooning very loudly, strutting around like a wind-up toy, lifting his feet too high.
Eventually she had had enough and just took off and flew away, he froze, stood there in a seeming daze for a few seconds, his chest deflating.
He then suddenly swung around and grabbed a Weaver, yanking out a beak full of bright yellow feathers, turned and attacked a dove, ripping out half of it’s tail. This went on for a few minutes, whenever another bird would get close to him he’d go for them, until there were bunches of feathers scattered on the lawn. It took the other birds a while to realize that they now had an attack pigeon in their midst, before they took to the trees.
After just a few minutes he calmed down and started feeding again, the other birds returned and things were back to normal.

This certainly looked like an emotional response to me, what do you think, I’d be very interested?

This seems very similar to something that happens in pubs and clubs around the world, the young, cocky, horny guy trying to impress the girl, getting progressively more 'inventive' in his attempts, before finally being rejected, her leaving and him then taking his frustration out on someone else by picking a fight and beating them up.

Stomatopoda · 19th November 2011, 10:32 PM

I don't understand why some treat emotion as a binary "yes/no" value, or separate from instinct. It seems (imo) more logical to view emotion as a very complex form of instinct. Also, I don't see how the idea of animals (including humans) having emotion as well as being biological "machines" are incompatible. A computer can be a trillion times more complex than a flashlight, but at no point does it ever stop being a machine.

Cheetah · 19th November 2011, 10:48 PM

^^^

I agree, but don't know if emotion is even more complex than any other instinct, I think they are sort of the same thing to a large degree.

Roboramma · 19th November 2011, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Number Six

Okay, maybe that's a form of the first one I listed, that dogs exhibit more of what we call emotion than other animals, on our first glance that is, which is why we find them endearing, but that it's not really more emotion than other animals but just some we more perceive as more emotion. So maybe a rabbit has a lot of emotion inside it but we don't see it because mostly it just sits there.

There are a few possibilities here, two of which are: dogs have the same amount of emotion as, say, crows, but they also have "fake" emotions that we misinterpret as real.
Or dogs have the same amount of emotion as, say, crows, but those emotions are more easily noticed by humans because they express their emotions in similar ways to us.

It seems to me that whatever their internal experience, dogs use emotions in much the same way and for the same reason that humans do. If we evolved to have emotional responses as the underlying mental factor of the behavioral response that is interpreted as emotion, I suspect that dogs do it the same way.
It's possible that they've found a more efficient way to have those behaviors, but I don't see why we should assume that when we know that our way evolved.

Similarly I expect that they have a mental experience of vision that is in some ways similar to ours (and different from our experience of sound).

caniswalensis · 20th November 2011, 07:26 AM

I know animals have emotions, because I have seen my little kitten weep bitter tears after I beat it.

Halfcentaur · 20th November 2011, 07:50 AM

My dog was happy when I'd leave for a long time and come back. But when I left for 5 months living in Asia and Europe, the moment I got back she went absolutely insane, she wasn't just acting happy to see me, she was whining and shaking overcome with some kind of sensation to the point of freaking out, and she would not leave my side for days after.

Fine · 20th November 2011, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

My dog was happy when I'd leave for a long time and come back. But when I left for 5 months living in Asia and Europe, the moment I got back she went absolutely insane, she wasn't just acting happy to see me, she was whining and shaking overcome with some kind of sensation to the point of freaking out, and she would not leave my side for days after.

_____________________

Halfcentaur,

A similar reunion brought the warrior Odysseus to tears. HERE

///

I Ratant · 20th November 2011, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Roboramma

There are a few possibilities here, two of which are: dogs have the same amount of emotion as, say, crows, but they also have "fake" emotions that we misinterpret as real.
Or dogs have the same amount of emotion as, say, crows, but those emotions are more easily noticed by humans because they express their emotions in similar ways to us.

It seems to me that whatever their internal experience, dogs use emotions in much the same way and for the same reason that humans do. If we evolved to have emotional responses as the underlying mental factor of the behavioral response that is interpreted as emotion, I suspect that dogs do it the same way.
It's possible that they've found a more efficient way to have those behaviors, but I don't see why we should assume that when we know that our way evolved.

Similarly I expect that they have a mental experience of vision that is in some ways similar to ours (and different from our experience of sound).

.
Not a crow... we have ravens around here, and the two never appear together.
A young raven fell out of its nest, and for a couple days the parents gave everyone holy hell even getting close to it.
This one in particular took umbrage at my interest in Junior, and would follow me around yelling at me.
And it had a stony stare!

17th November 2011, 07:27 AM	#1
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Animal emotions including depression and suicide. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._suicide_.html I once went on a trip around the USA that lasted eight weeks. I came home and my dog was there. He was eckstatic. Getting in my face and and whimpering, seemingly overcome with emotion. I have to assume he was sad during long absense. He obviously hadn't committed suicide but animals do seem to have the same emotions humans do. Apparently even animals such as birds have these emotions. This is why I don't hunt.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

18th November 2011, 01:10 AM	#2
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	I think there are two things here. One is how much emotions animals have. The other is how much emotion humans perceive animals as having. And of course each of those varies by animal and to some degree by human. I suspect that humans perceive dogs as having more emotion than most if not all other animals, including other humans. But do they? I don't know. I suspect not but maybe it depends on how you define emotions. As far as being closer to humans in intellect goes there are lots of animals ahead of dogs in the line so maybe they are ahead of dogs in the emotion line too. I've read that dolphins are very intelligent. And they jump out of the water now and then and exhibit intelligence and all that stuff. But do they ever exhibit as much emotion when you first see them after you've been awhile away as do dogs? Dogs are crazy, nutso on that front, which is why humans like them so much, but I'm not sure that is dogs exhibiting emotion so much as it is humans perceiving it.
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18th November 2011, 07:11 AM	#3
Pulvinar Muse Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 819	Originally Posted by Number Six I think there are two things here. One is how much emotions animals have. The other is how much emotion humans perceive animals as having. And of course each of those varies by animal and to some degree by human. Except how could there be a real amount of emotions independent of how we decide to measure them? I suspect you mean perceived by the animal itself.
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18th November 2011, 08:11 AM	#4
Scott Haley Muse Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 562	When wolves leave their puppies alone, it's usually because they're off hunting. When the adults come back, the puppies greet them enthusiastically to get their attention. Then they try to lick the adults' faces, to get them to regurgitate some food. Dogs retain puppy instincts throughout life. Despite that, I love to be joyously greeted by a dog.
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18th November 2011, 08:47 AM	#5
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	The pup licking the face of the mother dog is an example of our perception being different from what is going on. When they do it in the wild we say the pups are trying to get the mother dog (or wolf, whatever) to regurgitate food. When they do it to us it's suddenly because the dog loves us. But the drive for the dog is the same either way. Despite the fact that its human master never responds to the face licking by regurgitating food, the dog will keep licking its masters face for years. The dogs are driven to lick faces because it got their ancestors food and they do it now regardless of whether it gets them food. And maybe even you could say that dogs are driven to lick human faces because humans find that behavior endearing and as a result they give the dogs more food, so licking human faces gets dogs food too. That doesn't make it an emotion though. As far as there being real emotion independent of how we decide to measure it, I'm not sure what that's getting at. If you made a machine that behaved like a dog there would be no emotion at all. OTOH a dog does whatever it does and has whatever emotion it has. But the behavior is the same either way. Or maybe two people have the same amount of emotion about something but one exhibits it and the other keeps it inside. To an observer they have different amounts of emotions but in reality they have the same amount. I guess maybe it all comes down to how emotions are defined. If human brains create human emotions what are dog brains capable of creating relative to human brains? I don't know exactly.
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18th November 2011, 08:49 AM	#6
coalesce Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 3,354	I have no doubt that all the cats I've owned in my life (six so far) have definite intelligence, emotion and personalities. They may not have the tools to fully express themselves the same way humans do, or it may be that I may not have all the tools to perceive their emotions the way another cat may. They are, however, able to express their feelings to me, be it happy, sad, lonely or angry (such as when my former cat Vinny peed in my ex-wife's shoes because they really didn't like one another.) Either way, I feel my cat Clancy and I on the same page. Michael
	__________________ "I want the kids in bed by nine, the dog fed, the yard watered and the gate locked. And get a note to the milkman NO MORE CHEESE!"

18th November 2011, 09:01 AM	#7
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	I agree that animals have some of those but what I don't know is how much of them they have relative to humans. It's interesting to that that if we can have way more intelligence, emotions, yadda yadda than do animals then there's no reason there can't exist creatures that have way more of those things than us.
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18th November 2011, 09:13 AM	#8
EHocking Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 4,410	Originally Posted by coalesce I have no doubt that all the cats I've owned in my life (six so far) have definite intelligence, emotion and personalities. They may not have the tools to fully express themselves the same way humans do, or it may be that I may not have all the tools to perceive their emotions the way another cat may. They are, however, able to express their feelings to me, be it happy, sad, lonely or angry (such as when my former cat Vinny peed in my ex-wife's shoes because they really didn't like one another.) Either way, I feel my cat Clancy and I on the same page. Michael I'm with Scott Haley on this one. The cat peeing in your wife's shoes could also be explained as a territorial reaction. Cats mark their territory with urine and will urinate on items marked by another's scent - in this case, your wife and her shoes rather than another cat and a bush. Attributing this to be similar to your human emotion towards your wife is not sound, IMO.
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18th November 2011, 09:28 AM	#9
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,609	Originally Posted by Number Six I think there are two things here. One is how much emotions animals have. The other is how much emotion humans perceive animals as having. And of course each of those varies by animal and to some degree by human. I suspect that humans perceive dogs as having more emotion than most if not all other animals, including other humans. But do they? I don't know. I suspect not but maybe it depends on how you define emotions. As far as being closer to humans in intellect goes there are lots of animals ahead of dogs in the line so maybe they are ahead of dogs in the emotion line too. I've read that dolphins are very intelligent. And they jump out of the water now and then and exhibit intelligence and all that stuff. But do they ever exhibit as much emotion when you first see them after you've been awhile away as do dogs? Dogs are crazy, nutso on that front, which is why humans like them so much, but I'm not sure that is dogs exhibiting emotion so much as it is humans perceiving it. All one need do is observe these animals to answer your questions. People often take anti-anthropomorphizing much too far. It's a caution, not some absolute rule that says you can't interpret a wagging tail as an emotional response in a dog. It may be difficult to recognize emotions in species that express them in ways much different than humans do. Octopi and cuttlefish, for example, may be expressing emotions through skin signals and it would be hard to know. However, one could with careful observation notice patterns and perhaps draw conclusions. But again, the octopus brain is so different from ours it is hard to say what such a brain experiences in the way of emotions. However, evolution tends to select certain patterns, eyesight, locomotion and so on. So it makes sense that emotions are naturally selected. But as for the cat and dog, I've seen my cat looking for its kittens when it was time to take them away. It was upset regardless if the quality was the same as sadness we experience with loss. But my dogs, there is no question they experience happiness, stubbornness and aggression.
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18th November 2011, 09:34 AM	#10
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,609	I have never seen any evidence for animal suicide, however. And as for depression with a loss, just as with most humans, eventually we get over the worst of it and miss the person but stop grieving. With a rare exception, like the dog that waits daily in some spot for a deceased owner to return, I've not seen obviously depressed animals not counting those depressed by the cage they are confined to (an ongoing cause for sadness as opposed to a loss created sadness). Jane Goodall documented depression in a chimpanzee who's mother died that led to the chimp's eventual death.
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18th November 2011, 09:37 AM	#11
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,609	Originally Posted by coalesce ...They are, however, able to express their feelings to me, ... (such as when my former cat Vinny peed in my ex-wife's shoes because they really didn't like one another.) ... While I don't doubt the rest of your observations, this conclusion seems a stretch.
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18th November 2011, 06:59 PM	#12
Dessi Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 1,923	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._suicide_.html I once went on a trip around the USA that lasted eight weeks. I came home and my dog was there. He was eckstatic. Getting in my face and and whimpering, seemingly overcome with emotion. I have to assume he was sad during long absense. He obviously hadn't committed suicide but animals do seem to have the same emotions humans do. Apparently even animals such as birds have these emotions. On the one hand, there's a class of skepticism that tends to deny that animals experience emotions beyond zombie like instinctual responses. On the other hand, psychologists have been designing animal models of clinical depression, psychologically disturbed animals with tendencies toward self-mutilation, learned helplessness, and so on for decades. There are also 1000s of experiments documenting the visible behavioral responses of addiction and withdrawal which can be severe enough that animals maim themselves. Obviously animals have a complex mental life which includes emotional experiences.
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19th November 2011, 03:10 AM	#13
Cheetah Thinker Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Africa Posts: 126	The idea that animals are biological machines with a multitude of pre-programmed responses to different situations is an old and in my opinion very silly idea, it really makes no sense once you think about it. I don't know why its taken so long to start falling out of favor (Edit: That's actually a lie, I've got a fair idea ). Sure, there are some higher order emotions that only make sense in a social context, which some animals might lack, but the basics are surely almost universal in at least mammals and birds (and quite possibly go even further back). Emotions are a neat and simple way for evolution to 'get the job done', without a bunch of very complicated pre-programing. It is also a much more flexible and adaptable way of doing it. Make a parent bird/animal love and care about their kids and they will do their best to raise them properly and protect them from harm. Evolution would quickly get stuck if it had to pre-program a response for every eventuality. When an animal is in need of sustenance evolution makes them want to go to all the trouble of looking for and finding food, by making them feel hungry, I don't think too many would dispute this. The same goes for reproduction, pre-programming, not necessary, just make 'em horny, real horny . As soon as love, anger, depression etc is mentioned, pertaining to animals, there seems to be some disconnect/denial, dunno why (Edit: Another one, I've got a fair idea). I've seen many animals/birds get p'd-off and angry, throw a temper tantrum, or depressed when losing a friend. Sometimes it is clearly counterproductive in a supposed 'pre-programmed by evolution' sense. You definitely don't have to be intelligent to really feel hungry or angry or love or horny. What would be a great mystery, would be if evolution did things completely differently for animals and then suddenly emotions popped up in the human animal (and all that supposed pre-programming suddenly disappeared), makes no sense.
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19th November 2011, 07:56 AM	#14
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,647	Originally Posted by Cheetah What would be a great mystery, would be if evolution did things completely differently for animals and then suddenly emotions popped up in the human animal (and all that supposed pre-programming suddenly disappeared), makes no sense. Exactly.
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,647	__________________ Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice...

19th November 2011, 08:02 AM	#15
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Reading stories concerning being licked by dogs seem to mean they are merely trying to get food from whomever they are licking but my dog used to lick me after he had eaten. I gave him good dogfood and meat scraps. So if they lick your face after they get fed well what does that mean? I think puppy kisses after the puppy eats is akin to kissing.
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19th November 2011, 08:47 AM	#16
Pulvinar Muse Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 819	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 So if they lick your face after they get fed well what does that mean? It means your face is now covered with bits of dog food. What always amuses me is that many people can have insight into the internal states of animal brains, yet insist that machines couldn't have such states.
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19th November 2011, 09:37 AM	#17
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Scott Haley When wolves leave their puppies alone, it's usually because they're off hunting. When the adults come back, the puppies greet them enthusiastically to get their attention. Then they try to lick the adults' faces, to get them to regurgitate some food. Dogs retain puppy instincts throughout life. Despite that, I love to be joyously greeted by a dog. . I love that too! I hate to see a nasty dog. I have to presume the owner is equally nasty, or has no interest in the dog's wellbeing. ST's dog is all over me when I got there. There's some around here that come to greet me when I walk by. Others that are really loud and nasty when inside their yards, but not so brave when outside, and really appreciate my putting them back inside, where they can be brave and loud again.

19th November 2011, 09:39 AM	#18
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Reading stories concerning being licked by dogs seem to mean they are merely trying to get food from whomever they are licking but my dog used to lick me after he had eaten. I gave him good dogfood and meat scraps. So if they lick your face after they get fed well what does that mean? I think puppy kisses after the puppy eats is akin to kissing. . A couple of the dogs I see when walking will lick my hand, although I've never fed them.

19th November 2011, 10:48 AM	#19
Steve001 Muse Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 533	Rats studies done several years ago showed rats capable of laughing. Chimpanzees also laugh. Dogs have a laugh of a sort when playing. It sounds like panting.
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19th November 2011, 11:11 AM	#20
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	This whole thing might be getting into the distinction between emotion and instinct and urge. Humans can love each other and then want to have sex to express it but can we be sure it's an expression of their emotion rather than just the filling of an urge? Maybe at some level there is no difference between the two. I don't doubt that animals have some level of what humans call emotions but there are two difficulties I have with flat out stating what we see in animals is point blank emotion. One if that dogs, for instance, exhibit a lot more of what we'd call emotion than other animals. That means either dogs have a lot more emotions than other animals, which seems odd, or we're observing what we see in dogs as a lot of emotion but at least some of which isn't emotion. There are two parts to the second thing pertains to animal parents and offspring. Male animals run the gamut from getting the female pregnant and then leaving right away for good to staying to help raise the offspring all the way until the offspring are independent. Human males do this too, but that's all within the group of human males whereas with animals it's more like, all Male X animals leave right after copulation, all Male Y animals stick around to raise their young, etc. So if it's solely emotion driving them then it's strange that all Male X animals have no emotion with regards to their offspring while all Male Y animals have a lot of emotion towards them. The second part to this second thing is that AFAIK animals mostly raise their young until the young are independent and then the young leave and that's it. The animal parent doesn't have the animal offspring over for Thanksgiving and hector them about when they're going to get some grandchildren. So if animal parents raise their offspring because they love them then the love seems to shut off when the offspring become independent.
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19th November 2011, 11:30 AM	#21
TjW Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: up in the air Posts: 9,999	Or possibly that dogs' expression of emotion is closer to ours, and thus more accessible to us.
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19th November 2011, 11:51 AM	#22
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	Okay, maybe that's a form of the first one I listed, that dogs exhibit more of what we call emotion than other animals, on our first glance that is, which is why we find them endearing, but that it's not really more emotion than other animals but just some we more perceive as more emotion. So maybe a rabbit has a lot of emotion inside it but we don't see it because mostly it just sits there.
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19th November 2011, 12:22 PM	#23
TjW Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: up in the air Posts: 9,999	Possibly. But the conclusion you drew was that some of what we perceived as emotion in dogs was not emotion. Now, that could be true, but it doesn't necessarily follow from the fact that we perceive more emotional behaviors in dogs. It could be that all of those perceived emotional displays really are emotional displays. It could be that dogs have an even richer emotional life than humans, and we are unable, for whatever reason, to pick up on the subtle cues. This might explain why some people get unexpectedly bit.
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19th November 2011, 12:28 PM	#24
meow Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 482	Originally Posted by Number Six Okay, maybe that's a form of the first one I listed, that dogs exhibit more of what we call emotion than other animals, on our first glance that is, which is why we find them endearing, but that it's not really more emotion than other animals but just some we more perceive as more emotion. So maybe a rabbit has a lot of emotion inside it but we don't see it because mostly it just sits there. almost every one of your posts is off the mark. we've been selecting dogs for specific traits for more than 30,000 years. we've been making them less wolf-like and less reptile-like the whole way through. my dog doesn't lick me --ever; he's always happy to see me when i've been away even when his belly is stuffed full and he can't eat another bite. --not only that but he insists on sleeping in the same room with me and if he doesn't get his way he'll cry all night. never heard of a lizard or rabbit insisting on sleeping with their owner.
meow Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 482	__________________ p < .0001 All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident - Arthur Schopenhauer

19th November 2011, 01:51 PM	#25
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	Originally Posted by TjW Possibly. But the conclusion you drew was that some of what we perceived as emotion in dogs was not emotion. Now, that could be true, but it doesn't necessarily follow from the fact that we perceive more emotional behaviors in dogs. It could be that all of those perceived emotional displays really are emotional displays. It could be that dogs have an even richer emotional life than humans, and we are unable, for whatever reason, to pick up on the subtle cues. This might explain why some people get unexpectedly bit. Yes but again that gets to, what is emotion. Maybe dogs have no emotional life at all and what we're seeing is something other than emotion and meanwhile turtles have the richest emotional life of any creature but it's emotion we can't see. It comes down to how emotion is defined, which I suspect has already been addressed by scientists.
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19th November 2011, 02:08 PM	#26
Nursedan Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 492	Didn't read the article but did read the OP - I saw my Grandpa's dog essentially kill itself. We were fishing on his lake and the dog (very old and getting sick) jumped into the water from the other side of the lake, about 300 feet from us. He could have walked around the lake and jumped in (or he could have not jumped in at all) but he decided to jump in the water far from where we could save him. He struggled for about 100 feet then we realized what was happening and he went under and floated to the surface. I have to say it seemed as if he knew exactly what he was doing. Edit: Ok read the article. About what I thought it would be.
Nursedan Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 492	__________________ "I'm a conservative. Now, you may not like that, but I am" - Frank Zappa Last edited by Nursedan; 19th November 2011 at 02:16 PM.

19th November 2011, 02:13 PM	#27
caniswalensis Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,567	Originally Posted by Scott Haley When wolves leave their puppies alone, it's usually because they're off hunting. When the adults come back, the puppies greet them enthusiastically to get their attention. Then they try to lick the adults' faces, to get them to regurgitate some food. Dogs retain puppy instincts throughout life. Despite that, I love to be joyously greeted by a dog. If you really love it, you'd regurgitate.
	__________________ "...The chief deficiency I see in the skeptical movement is its polarization: Us vs. Them -- the sense that we have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you're sensible, you'll listen to us; and if not, to hell with you. This is nonconstructive. It does not get our message across. It condemns us to permanent minority status." - Carl Sagan

19th November 2011, 02:47 PM	#28
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	Originally Posted by meow almost every one of your posts is off the mark. we've been selecting dogs for specific traits for more than 30,000 years. we've been making them less wolf-like and less reptile-like the whole way through. my dog doesn't lick me --ever; he's always happy to see me when i've been away even when his belly is stuffed full and he can't eat another bite. --not only that but he insists on sleeping in the same room with me and if he doesn't get his way he'll cry all night. never heard of a lizard or rabbit insisting on sleeping with their owner. Dogs are pack animals and want to be with their alpha dog. And just because they're full doesn't mean they'd say "You know, I'm full so I won't try to get food." When they not full and they lick your face I doubt they're thinking "I hope master regurgitates some food." They just do it. As I said in another post, if it were a conscious effort to get you to regurgitate food they'd stop eventually since people never regurgitate food for their dogs to eat. Dogs lick places other than people's face though. I don't know that it's a sign of emotion or affection. It might a grooming think or something else.
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19th November 2011, 03:37 PM	#29
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	Originally Posted by Nursedan I saw my Grandpa's dog essentially kill itself. We were fishing on his lake and the dog (very old and getting sick) jumped into the water from the other side of the lake, about 300 feet from us. He could have walked around the lake and jumped in (or he could have not jumped in at all) but he decided to jump in the water far from where we could save him. He struggled for about 100 feet then we realized what was happening and he went under and floated to the surface. I have to say it seemed as if he knew exactly what he was doing. Dawgwin Award Winner.
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19th November 2011, 04:16 PM	#30
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Nursedan Didn't read the article but did read the OP - I saw my Grandpa's dog essentially kill itself. We were fishing on his lake and the dog (very old and getting sick) jumped into the water from the other side of the lake, about 300 feet from us. He could have walked around the lake and jumped in (or he could have not jumped in at all) but he decided to jump in the water far from where we could save him. He struggled for about 100 feet then we realized what was happening and he went under and floated to the surface. I have to say it seemed as if he knew exactly what he was doing. Edit: Ok read the article. About what I thought it would be. . What he was doing was probably something he'd done before.

19th November 2011, 04:40 PM	#31
Nursedan Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 492	Originally Posted by I Ratant . What he was doing was probably something he'd done before. Actually, this particular dog hadn't swam for years, being old and sick. I thought that as it was happening; that he was trying to reach us - but no, there didn't seem to be a reason for him jumping into the cold water (other than to end his life). I'll add that before this experience I thought that humans were the only species aware of the fact that we will one day die. This experience made me question that.
Nursedan Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 492	__________________ "I'm a conservative. Now, you may not like that, but I am" - Frank Zappa Last edited by Nursedan; 19th November 2011 at 04:42 PM.

19th November 2011, 06:19 PM	#32
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,590	Originally Posted by Number Six The pup licking the face of the mother dog is an example of our perception being different from what is going on. When they do it in the wild we say the pups are trying to get the mother dog (or wolf, whatever) to regurgitate food. When they do it to us it's suddenly because the dog loves us. But the drive for the dog is the same either way. (snip) I guess maybe it all comes down to how emotions are defined. If human brains create human emotions what are dog brains capable of creating relative to human brains? I don't know exactly. I think that one can state the case either way: Either "emotions" lead to actions by which we can deduce what other humans/creatures feel. Or actions feel like they're driven by something we wrongly call "emotions" but they're really just stimulus-response behaviors. Both explanations work equally well for humans or animals. Once can say that pups don't really "love" their parents and licking is just a way to get food, but one can say the same thing about human children, that smiling or hugging parents isn't because they "love" them, it's a successfully bred-in way to get attention and care, spurred by certain brain activity that provokes the behavior. The problem is that one can only experience what that brain activity "feels like" oneself. When a person remembers what it "feels like" to want to hug her mother in childhood, it "feels like" the thing that we label with the word "love." So it really does come down to a definition of what an emotion is, and therefore how one can observe it objectively in other animals/humans, without relying on behavioral indicators, even in humans. To greatly oversimplify... As an example, if an increase in adrenaline is the defining characteristic of the emotion "excitement" in humans, then by definition, any animal experiences the emotion of "excitement" when their body increases adrenalin, whether they're a mouse or a human. If that's not a suitable definition, then it needs refined until whatever we're getting at is achieved. And I have a feeling that "what we're getting at" would go down the political path of animal rights very quickly, with headlines: "Scientists say cattle at slaughter houses feel same emotions as humans" or "Scientists say cattle cannot feel any emotions."
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,590

19th November 2011, 10:08 PM	#33
Cheetah Thinker Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Africa Posts: 126	Originally Posted by Number Six I don't doubt that animals have some level of what humans call emotions but there are two difficulties I have with flat out stating what we see in animals is point blank emotion. A lot of people seem to agree that at least mammals do seem to have emotions, but what about birds? If they do then surely mammals have too. Whenever I’ve lived in a place with a garden I periodically toss out a few handfuls of birdseed and I enjoy watching the interactions between the different birds that come to feed. The general trend seems to be that there is a lot of squabbling between members of the same species (especially males), but different species seem to mostly ignore each other, or at least stay out of each other’s way (with larger more aggressive species having the right of way). On one occasion I had a bunch of Masked Weavers, Laughing Doves and a single young male Rock Pigeon feeding, all three species basically ignoring each other. A while later another, female, Rock Pigeon arrived and started feeding. The male immediately showed interest and starting to follow her around, but alas she was not at all interested and just wanted to fill up on some seeds. The male started strutting around her, puffing out his chest, crooning, bobbing his head and very much trying to impress her. She would just turn her back on him and continue pecking up seeds. This went on for a few minutes, the strutting, bobbing and crooning growing progressively more exaggerated. When he got too in her face she would fly up into a tree, he would follow, continuing his antics, she would fly down again and grab a couple of seeds before he’d be there again. This happened repeatedly, until he was literally bouncing up and down, bowing down until his chin touched the ground, rearing up as high as possible, puffing out his chest and crooning very loudly, strutting around like a wind-up toy, lifting his feet too high. Eventually she had had enough and just took off and flew away, he froze, stood there in a seeming daze for a few seconds, his chest deflating. He then suddenly swung around and grabbed a Weaver, yanking out a beak full of bright yellow feathers, turned and attacked a dove, ripping out half of it’s tail. This went on for a few minutes, whenever another bird would get close to him he’d go for them, until there were bunches of feathers scattered on the lawn. It took the other birds a while to realize that they now had an attack pigeon in their midst, before they took to the trees. After just a few minutes he calmed down and started feeding again, the other birds returned and things were back to normal. This certainly looked like an emotional response to me, what do you think, I’d be very interested? This seems very similar to something that happens in pubs and clubs around the world, the young, cocky, horny guy trying to impress the girl, getting progressively more 'inventive' in his attempts, before finally being rejected, her leaving and him then taking his frustration out on someone else by picking a fight and beating them up.
	__________________ "... when you dig my grave, could you make it shallow so that I can feel the rain" - DMB Last edited by Cheetah; 19th November 2011 at 10:54 PM.

19th November 2011, 10:32 PM	#34
Stomatopoda Muse Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 861	I don't understand why some treat emotion as a binary "yes/no" value, or separate from instinct. It seems (imo) more logical to view emotion as a very complex form of instinct. Also, I don't see how the idea of animals (including humans) having emotion as well as being biological "machines" are incompatible. A computer can be a trillion times more complex than a flashlight, but at no point does it ever stop being a machine.
Stomatopoda Muse Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 861

19th November 2011, 10:48 PM	#35
Cheetah Thinker Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Africa Posts: 126	^^^ I agree, but don't know if emotion is even more complex than any other instinct, I think they are sort of the same thing to a large degree.
	__________________ "... when you dig my grave, could you make it shallow so that I can feel the rain" - DMB Last edited by Cheetah; 19th November 2011 at 10:50 PM.