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Tags Amanda Knox , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 23rd November 2011, 03:39 PM   #1
LashL
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Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Mod WarningThis thread has been reopened on moderated status. Please, everyone, stick to your Membership Agreement, keep things civil, and do not import arguments from other boards.

This thread is also a further continuation from previous threads here, here , here , and here.
Posted By:LashL


Mod Info8th December 2012: Thread has been taken off [Moderated] status. A warning has been issued for this thread, please ensure you take heed of it, see: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...98#post8829598
Posted By:Darat

Last edited by Darat; 8th December 2012 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 04:13 PM   #2
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lack of DNA

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson View Post
We believe what we want, but didn't some scientist prove that Knox could not be guilty because the lack of DNA evidence at the crime scene?
Bill,

I would put the emphasis a little bit differently. The two independent forensic scientists found major faults with the prosecution's case. The lack of Amanda's or Raffaele's DNA in Meredith's room is very difficult to reconcile with their culpability. I would say that the lack of food in Meredith's duodenum comes closer to being proof of innocence.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 04:19 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by smkovalinksy View Post

Originally Posted by Rolfe
Er, what? What school did she go to, then? St. Paul's?

Cannot recall. It was posted some months ago on TJMK, and it was the first time that I really "caught" that this was a culture war. I am from the US, so do not know about these schools.

I looked it up. Old Palace School, Croydon. Certainly not your local comp. Fee-paying, fairly upmarket. I used to live quite near there and I've never heard of it, but that doesn't mean anything. I checked it in the school league tables and although it's well outside the top hundred it's not terrible. You could do better even in Croydon itself though, and it's very also-ran in the context of London as a whole. It's certainly not St. Paul's by a very long chalk. I just think the comment about Plato's Republic is beyond pretentious.

Rolfe.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 04:50 PM   #4
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Welcome back all.

Hard to believe the universe was able to survive.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 04:59 PM   #5
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Was wondering if this will have any bearing whatsoever on SC appeal?

Quote:
But on Monday, an Italian appelate court decided that Mignini's case was heard by the wrong panel. The previous ruling against Mignini was discharged, with the court saying the case should have instead been heard by a panel in Turin.

At this point, the Turin court has not scheduled a hearing on the case against Mignini.
Somehow, I think they never will.

http://www.king5.com/news/cities/sea...134346513.html


Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited to remove hotlinked image.

Last edited by Loss Leader; 23rd November 2011 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 05:24 PM   #6
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Can't Wait

Prosecutor Mignini has always been vilified and held in very low regard here.
His conviction and sentence (suspended) in the lower Court was given undue emphasis, and endlessly used to argue Knox innocence.

During the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, the serial murder case for which the Prosecutor was charged with abuse of power was often cited by the defense as evidence of Mignini's inability to play fair in the Knox/Sollecito trial.

Therefore, I anxiously await reaction here to the Prosecutor winning his Appeal last Monday
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Old 23rd November 2011, 05:50 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
Prosecutor Mignini has always been vilified and held in very low regard here.
His conviction and sentence (suspended) in the lower Court was given undue emphasis, and endlessly used to argue Knox innocence.

During the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, the serial murder case for which the Prosecutor was charged with abuse of power was often cited by the defense as evidence of Mignini's inability to play fair in the Knox/Sollecito trial.

Therefore, I anxiously await reaction here to the Prosecutor winning his Appeal last Monday
I always had great respect for Mignini. He has that classical air about him, very Catholic and Kantian and serious. He loves Perugia, and he does seek truth and justice, from within his own purview.

I think he is profoundly handsome, as well. (mods took the picture down ) I always empathized greatly with him, even though I did not agree with him on many things. I defended him on websleuths and Now Public News to the point where I annoyed and greatly vexed many people. I was not dying to see him convicted. I do not want his theory to win with the Supreme Court, but I have never vilified him.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 06:34 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
Welcome back all.

Hard to believe the universe was able to survive.
To you, as well, kind sir. Ha, yes, a bit of withdrawal from this thread...
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Old 23rd November 2011, 06:56 PM   #9
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He wasn't found innocent only escaped because of technicality of where to charge him.

smkovalinksy - I'm very surprised by your feelings about him. His treatment of Preston and Spezi would be enough for me to believe he is a bully but the sex orgy - satanic rite - sex game gone bad - theories make him seem like a nut.

Whether he will be found guilty again or not, I never understood with his background why they didn't replace him.

The fact that Preston's experience was documented before this case makes it more than a coincidence how the interrogation was conducted.

As for looks...eye of the beholder.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 07:04 PM   #10
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Quick followup: Mignini reading the Daily Mail story about the noise ticket was below low. His characterizations of Amanda were beyond the pale. His blaming the media in the last trial was so hypocritical. Charging her parents with calunnia and the reporter from the WS Herald was over the top. His threatening all those people with calunnia and having Frank's blog shut down reek of thuggish behavior.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 08:18 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
Prosecutor Mignini has always been vilified and held in very low regard here.
His conviction and sentence (suspended) in the lower Court was given undue emphasis, and endlessly used to argue Knox innocence.

During the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, the serial murder case for which the Prosecutor was charged with abuse of power was often cited by the defense as evidence of Mignini's inability to play fair in the Knox/Sollecito trial.

Therefore, I anxiously await reaction here to the Prosecutor winning his Appeal last Monday
My feelings about Mignini remain unchanged. He got off on a technicality. The decision changes nothing with regard to his actions.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 10:30 PM   #12
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If you really feel that way about Prosecutor Mignini

Originally Posted by Bruce Fisher View Post
My feelings about Mignini remain unchanged. He got off on a technicality. The decision changes nothing with regard to his actions.
Then I am sure you can quickly and easily understand why so many people, including the Italian crowd who loudly booed outside after the verdict, justly feel exactly as you feel about Prosecutor Mignini, but now about Knox and Sollecito.

The decision of Judge Hellmann changes nothing with regard to Knox and Sollecito's actions either.
In fact, Judge Hellmann's verbal statements after his TV cameras were turned off directly alluded to the possibility that Knox and Sollecito knew a lot more about Meredith's death than Judge Hellmann's views of the evidence proved to him and his jurors

BTW:
Many newer readers may not be aware of just how vicious the vitriol toward Prosecutor Mignini was here.
May I suggest a quick search using tags that will quickly show some of the horrid names he was sadly vilified with here.
All this simply because he believed Knox and Sollicito were very guilty.
He simply did his best.
He simply did no more than perform his legally defined duty to show the Courts why he so believed.
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Old 24th November 2011, 03:36 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
Bill,

I would put the emphasis a little bit differently. The two independent forensic scientists found major faults with the prosecution's case. The lack of Amanda's or Raffaele's DNA in Meredith's room is very difficult to reconcile with their culpability. I would say that the lack of food in Meredith's duodenum comes closer to being proof of innocence.
I still wonder if the Conti-Vecchiotti Report did more to discredit the rest of the forensics than just the DNA. Frank Sfarzo's account of their presentation in court is extremely damning to the prosecution:

Originally Posted by Frank Sfarzo
Half of the time was dedicate to criticizing the work of the police. Criticizing is not really the right word. It was a real attack, a massacre of the whole police, scientific or not.

Stefano Conti showed the movements inside the house, from the video of November 2. He pointed out that while the biologists were collecting the evidence, any sort of non scientific people –in a sweater, in a coat– were walking around, passing from room to room. People who looked not to really have a function, a purpose, a discipline.

Conti was particularly struck by one person who was using his foot to indicate something beside the body. Or by another person who at one point said ‘it’s all absurd… disorganization beyond belief’ (and if they say that…). Or by the notorious opening of the door downstairs with kicks, ending up with the explosion of the glass.

The forensic people, then: suits half opened; evidence grabbed with the hands, even when they had tweezers in their other hand; gloves not changed; up to three stains (even if close to each other) collected with one buffer; evidence stored into plastic bags; blood traces completely removed; gloves and shoe covers not changed; a garment shacked in the air by Stefanoni. For December 18, then, even the re-appearing piece of bra, the main evidence, was collected with dirty gloves.

He was very clear: first he recalled the guidelines, then he showed the way they acted. Result: for Stefano Conti, everything that shouldn’t have been done, was done. And this is just what happened under the cameras. Imagine what happened when nobody was filming…

All these things had been extensively described by the defense, and are very familiar to the followers of the case. But this time it’s not the defense saying these things, this time it is Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti, scientists for the court.
Thus while the DNA report didn't suggest proof of Amanda and Raffaele's innocence, it undermined as well the rest of the 'evidence' the prosecution gathered, as well as demonstrated their desperation to 'find' something from either of them that could be tied to that murder room.
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Old 24th November 2011, 03:43 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
Prosecutor Mignini has always been vilified and held in very low regard here.
His conviction and sentence (suspended) in the lower Court was given undue emphasis, and endlessly used to argue Knox innocence.

During the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, the serial murder case for which the Prosecutor was charged with abuse of power was often cited by the defense as evidence of Mignini's inability to play fair in the Knox/Sollecito trial.

Therefore, I anxiously await reaction here to the Prosecutor winning his Appeal last Monday
He started about two dozen extra investigations on various people criticizing his 'method' of digging up dead bodies to check their haircut and pants sizes to 'solve' a string of murders a generation old. He had them either conspiring with or actually being (in Mario Spezi's case) the Monster of Florence. He had the conviction quashed because it was decided he'd pissed so many people off in Florence he couldn't get a fair trial there. His hope is that no one else will want to tangle with the rattlesnake.

So what makes you think that will change much of anyone's opinion on him being corrupt and unhinged?
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Old 24th November 2011, 03:48 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by smkovalinksy View Post
I always had great respect for Mignini. He has that classical air about him, very Catholic and Kantian and serious. He loves Perugia, and he does seek truth and justice, from within his own purview.

I think he is profoundly handsome, as well. (mods took the picture down ) I always empathized greatly with him, even though I did not agree with him on many things. I defended him on websleuths and Now Public News to the point where I annoyed and greatly vexed many people. I was not dying to see him convicted. I do not want his theory to win with the Supreme Court, but I have never vilified him.
There was a time I entertained a similar view of Mignini, deontological but simply deluded in this case, but further reflection suggested to me that was nothing but a fraud. He's a fundamentally dishonest man in my view, and will change the world (or the evidence) rather than ever change his mind about anything important to him.

I will admit the 'thinking in Latin' part is pretty cool if true though!
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Old 24th November 2011, 06:06 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
He wasn't found innocent only escaped because of technicality of where to charge him.

smkovalinksy - I'm very surprised by your feelings about him. His treatment of Preston and Spezi would be enough for me to believe he is a bully but the sex orgy - satanic rite - sex game gone bad - theories make him seem like a nut.

Whether he will be found guilty again or not, I never understood with his background why they didn't replace him.

The fact that Preston's experience was documented before this case makes it more than a coincidence how the interrogation was conducted.

As for looks...eye of the beholder.
Well, you are probably right - I have a predisposition to be in awe of, and tender toward, that sort of Italian machismo, which speaks more to my past than to anything objective. It has very little to do with justice, and he did treat Preston terribly, and likely did get off on a technicality. Do you think they may still take up the case?
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Old 24th November 2011, 06:44 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Kaosium View Post
There was a time I entertained a similar view of Mignini, deontological but simply deluded in this case, but further reflection suggested to me that was nothing but a fraud. He's a fundamentally dishonest man in my view, and will change the world (or the evidence) rather than ever change his mind about anything important to him.

I will admit the 'thinking in Latin' part is pretty cool if true though!
Yes, I think I have given him too much credit; almost felt sorry for him, somehow, as he seems to be swimming against the postmodern world. But dishonesty is nothing to admire.
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Old 24th November 2011, 06:53 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
Then I am sure you can quickly and easily understand why so many people, including the Italian crowd who loudly booed outside after the verdict, justly feel exactly as you feel about Prosecutor Mignini, but now about Knox and Sollecito.

The decision of Judge Hellmann changes nothing with regard to Knox and Sollecito's actions either.
In fact, Judge Hellmann's verbal statements after his TV cameras were turned off directly alluded to the possibility that Knox and Sollecito knew a lot more about Meredith's death than Judge Hellmann's views of the evidence proved to him and his jurors

BTW:
Many newer readers may not be aware of just how vicious the vitriol toward Prosecutor Mignini was here.
May I suggest a quick search using tags that will quickly show some of the horrid names he was sadly vilified with here.
All this simply because he believed Knox and Sollicito were very guilty.
He simply did his best.
He simply did no more than perform his legally defined duty to show the Courts why he so believed.
I think Preston's pieces about the Monster of Florence affair, and the subsequent indictment/conviction of Mignini, made many feel that he was in fact fundamentally dishonest and underhanded. All preceded the affair with Knox and Sollecito, and they of course have nothing remotely similar in their own pasts, so the analogy does not hold. Do you think Hellmann's motivation report will indicate that they too got off on a technicality?
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Old 24th November 2011, 06:53 AM   #19
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Do not mean to be pedantic, but......

Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
Bill,

I would put the emphasis a little bit differently. The two independent forensic scientists found major faults with the prosecution's case. The lack of Amanda's or Raffaele's DNA in Meredith's room is very difficult to reconcile with their culpability. I would say that the lack of food in Meredith's duodenum comes closer to being proof of innocence.
Wouldn't it be much more accurate to state that the lack of dna.... that met the collection and testing standards of the two experts that the Judge had chosen to review the case?

Would your statement about lack of Knox's and particularly lack of Sollecito's dna in Meredith's room be accurate enough to be acceptable to a faculty advisor for a PhD candidate's dissertation ???

Or does it just pass the much, much less stringent Blog/Forum standards for 'close enough' accuracy ??
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Old 24th November 2011, 06:53 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Kaosium View Post
He started about two dozen extra investigations on various people criticizing his 'method' of digging up dead bodies to check their haircut and pants sizes to 'solve' a string of murders a generation old.
I don't understand why you think there is something wrong with that.

Moreover, I think Mignini is right in the Narducci case.
For the sake of correct iformation, Mignini did not start the investigation: the investigation was started in Florence and it was Giuttari who brought the wiretapping part to the attention of Mignini, to escape the power of Questura of Florence.

Quote:
He had them either conspiring with or actually being (in Mario Spezi's case) the Monster of Florence. He had the conviction quashed because it was decided he'd pissed so many people off in Florence he couldn't get a fair trial there.
It's not entirely correct to word it like that: not only he had his conviction canceled, but also his indictment and charges. This is not technically a quashing. And this is not a technicality. This is the fundamental ground of legitimacy on which his defense was based.
It is not correct to state that his trial was moved to another court: his trial was declared void and null. The investigation file collected on him and Giuttari is transferred to another jurisdiction: the Procura of Turin will decide what to do with it, how to use it to investigate whatever or whoever they think, whether there is material to ask for achiviation or formulizing charges on that material.


Quote:
His hope is that no one else will want to tangle with the rattlesnake.
To me, the interesting point is that the file includes the Narducci investigation file in it, which was seized and included in the Mignini's trial file. Now the Narducci file could be re-opened again. In my opinion - but also in the opinions of others - the seizure of the Narducci investigation file was the actual purpose for the very existence of a Mignini-Giuttari investigation. The trial against Mignini and Giuttari in other way was an expedient for seizing and locking the other investigation file.
The Narducci file is the real rattlesnake nest.
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Old 24th November 2011, 07:13 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by smkovalinksy View Post
Well, you are probably right - I have a predisposition to be in awe of, and tender toward, that sort of Italian machismo, which speaks more to my past than to anything objective. It has very little to do with justice, and he did treat Preston terribly, and likely did get off on a technicality. Do you think they may still take up the case?
I would think that the Italians would like this entire affair to go away.

He was convicted once and it was found that was in the wrong jurisdiction, he was not found innocent as Amanda and Raffaele were. They were released not on a legal technicality but because of the evidence. He was released on a technicality.

How much do the Italians worry about a prosecutor like Mignini? How much do they worry about having the press wiretapped? How much do they worry about having the police wiretapped by prosecutors? Do they value a free press and free speech enough to go after him again?

Don't know.
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Old 24th November 2011, 07:44 AM   #22
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When thadee motivation report is issued, I'm very curious as to how Hellman will handle TOD.

Will he point out that every piece of evidence and witness testimony, with the exception of Nara and Curatolo point to a death around 10pm or earlier? Given the stomach contents, the phone activity, the cell tower at shortly after 10, the state of the cottage (heat off and washing machine un-emptied), the lack of a follow-up call to mom, her state of dress, the broken down car people including the tow truck driver and Rudy's Skype conversation's 9:20 attack time, I would guess Hellman will move TOD.

After Rudy sees the report, will he consider telling the truth that neither of the kids had anything to do with the murder?


Hope this link thingy works
<a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57329774-504083/well-be-listening-amanda-knox-case-reveals-extent-of-italian-wiretapping/">CBS story on wiretaps in Italy</a>
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Old 24th November 2011, 08:47 AM   #23
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I am looking for an answer to this question, which I expect has probably been covered here. According to the Massei report Knox received the text message from Lumumba when she was somewhere other than Sollecito's flat.

Phone records indicate that the next day the signal from the same tower could in fact connect with the flat. Was this just an 'error' that was made in the report?
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Old 24th November 2011, 09:34 AM   #24
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Edited by Gaspode:  Edited for moderated thread.


Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
Prosecutor Mignini has always been vilified and held in very low regard here.
Well earned low regard.

Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
His conviction and sentence (suspended) in the lower Court was given undue emphasis, and endlessly used to argue Knox innocence.
I don't think you're right. It was not that he was sentenced for a year and a half of jail for crimes unrelated to the Knox trial. It was his actions in other cases that were very similar to what he did in the Kercher murder case.

Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
During the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, the serial murder case for which the Prosecutor was charged with abuse of power was often cited by the defense as evidence of Mignini's inability to play fair in the Knox/Sollecito trial.
Inability to play fair is an understatement. His actions revealed that he's unfit for the office and probably in need of therapy and heavy medication. He showed again, just like in the MoF case, that he's detached from reality through his perverted sex fantasies and satanic paranoia. That he was allowed to lead the investigations nonetheless is extraordinary.
His erratic actions caused great amount of suffering and financial loss. In MoF he accused of horrific crimes like 20 innocent people, wire-tapping and jailing many of them. In the Kercher case he showed his colours again, making his perversive sexual imagination into the official theory of the crime and accusing innocent people. Again we had great number of people under surveillance, the whole extended families of the accused innocents wire-tapped, more that thirty thousand (!) recordings of the conversations, that failed to show any crime.

Mignini also showed that he's a liar and a very small, vindictive and manipulative man. He showed no regard for the victim's family suffering, manipulating and using them to his own needs.

I also think there are signs of narcissistic personality disorder, sociopathy and other disorders in his actions


Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
Therefore, I anxiously await reaction here to the Prosecutor winning his Appeal last Monday
It's not Exactly winning. The case is just sent to Another court.
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Last edited by Gaspode; 24th November 2011 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 24th November 2011, 09:54 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
Then I am sure you can quickly and easily understand why so many people, including the Italian crowd who loudly booed outside after the verdict, justly feel exactly as you feel about Prosecutor Mignini, but now about Knox and Sollecito.

The decision of Judge Hellmann changes nothing with regard to Knox and Sollecito's actions either.
In fact, Judge Hellmann's verbal statements after his TV cameras were turned off directly alluded to the possibility that Knox and Sollecito knew a lot more about Meredith's death than Judge Hellmann's views of the evidence proved to him and his jurors
I think you're misinterpreting and misunderstanding Hellmann's words. He said clearly that while hypothetically everything is possible, even a perfect crime leaving no traces, factually the acquitted two are absolutely innocent. He also said that the initial conviction was illogical and inadequate. He even had a word to the booing mob - he said that they don't know the case file and are swayed by inaccurate media reporting. Good to heed the words and reflect.



Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
Many newer readers may not be aware of just how vicious the vitriol toward Prosecutor Mignini was here.
May I suggest a quick search using tags that will quickly show some of the horrid names he was sadly vilified with here.
All this simply because he believed Knox and Sollicito were very guilty.
He simply did his best.
He simply did no more than perform his legally defined duty to show the Courts why he so believed.
I don't know if the dishonourable conduct he displayed was "his best".
Certainly he did a lot more then his legal "duty".
His lies about the all-night interrogation are on record. So are other lies about the evidence. So are his perverted sexual fantasies that he played out in court. Attacks on the families of the innocents. Attempts to silence the journalists. Hypocritically bringing into evidence a mendacious tabloid article. Crying false tears about the media influence later. Not to mention the recent lie about the "private jet" waiting for Knox.
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Old 24th November 2011, 10:20 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
Then I am sure you can quickly and easily understand why so many people, including the Italian crowd who loudly booed outside after the verdict, justly feel exactly as you feel about Prosecutor Mignini, but now about Knox and Sollecito.

The decision of Judge Hellmann changes nothing with regard to Knox and Sollecito's actions either.
In fact, Judge Hellmann's verbal statements after his TV cameras were turned off directly alluded to the possibility that Knox and Sollecito knew a lot more about Meredith's death than Judge Hellmann's views of the evidence proved to him and his jurors

BTW:
Many newer readers may not be aware of just how vicious the vitriol toward Prosecutor Mignini was here.
May I suggest a quick search using tags that will quickly show some of the horrid names he was sadly vilified with here.
All this simply because he believed Knox and Sollicito were very guilty.
He simply did his best.
He simply did no more than perform his legally defined duty to show the Courts why he so believed.
You are not making a valid comparison. Mignini's conviction was annulled because the court ruled that the charges were leveled outside the proper jurisdiction. It the statute of limitations does not run out, Mignini can be tried again for his crimes.

On October 3, 2011, Judge Hellmann spoke loud and clear when he declared that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent. They had absolutely nothing to do with Meredith Kercher's murder.

In the case of the murder (and the sexual assault, transporting the knife, and theft), Amanda and Raffaele were acquitted "for not having committed the act."

With regard to the charge of staging a burglary, Amanda and Raffaele were acquitted "because the act does not exist." (Hellmann's court ruled that the burglary was not staged)

With regard to Hellmann's words after the verdict, you are reading a bad translation of what he said. This should all be cleared up when the motivation comes out in January.
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Old 24th November 2011, 10:20 AM   #27
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Interesting new article:
Crimesider - We'll be listening: Amanda Knox case reveals extent of Italian wiretapping

Quote:
Dr. Sollecito told Crimesider that the police also monitored his calls with his medical patients as well as calls he made to his lawyers. Although Italian law prohibits police wiretaps from violating personal privacy, Italian media report those prohibitions are rarely enforced. And police and prosecutors in Italy do not need to show probable cause that a crime has been committed in order to convince a judge to authorize a wiretap. So it is little wonder that Italy is one of Europe's leading eavesdropping nations.
Wiretapping lawyers? Wasn't the recent defence lawyers strike also about it?


39,952 conversations and messages recorded. That's how Mignini and his pack wasted money for nothing. And according to Mignini's lie they had no money to record the middle of the night, head-slapping interrogations. Right.

And some more evidence of misconduct:

Quote:
In September, Raffaele Sollecito's defense lawyers revealed Perugia police had "lost" 29 wiretapped phone calls, many between Amanda Knox and Sollecito. All the calls were made in the two days following
Meredith Kercher's murder. Perugia court-watcher Frank Sfarzo wonders if the 29 calls were "lost" as a result of an accident or something more sinister. Sfarzo wrote in his Perugia Shock blog, "Were they (Knox and
Sollecito) saying something that was proving that they didn't have anything to do with the crime?"
Mignini and the cops: "We did our best, we only lost 29 recordings, fried four hard drives, forgot to record the key interrogations (because of no money ), failed to test the key evidence, let other evidence rot and rust as to become untestable, and failed to secure the CCTV videos from all over the town. But it's all good because none of that would help us keep Knox in jail. To do that we had to lie a little about evidence that was not there, too. In fact, we had to lie a lot"
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Old 24th November 2011, 11:24 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Bruce Fisher View Post

With regard to Hellmann's words after the verdict, you are reading a bad translation of what he said. This should all be cleared up when the motivation comes out in January.
I also think people have made far too much of Hellmann's after-statements to the press, and that it will indeed be clarified in the pending motivational report.
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Old 24th November 2011, 12:50 PM   #29
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Your argument perfectly makes my point about vitriol and vilification, BUT .......

Originally Posted by Katody Matrass View Post
Edited by Gaspode:  Edited for moderated thread.


Well earned low regard.

I don't think you're right. It was not that he was sentenced for a year and a half of jail for crimes unrelated to the Knox trial. It was his actions in other cases that were very similar to what he did in the Kercher murder case.

Inability to play fair is an understatement. His actions revealed that he's unfit for the office and probably in need of therapy and heavy medication. He showed again, just like in the MoF case, that he's detached from reality through That he was allowed to lead the investigations nonetheless is extraordinary.
His erratic actions caused great amount of suffering and financial loss. In MoF he accused of horrific crimes like 20 innocent people, wire-tapping and jailing many of them. In the Kercher case he showed his colours again, making his perversive sexual imagination into the official theory of the crime and accusing innocent people. Again we had great number of people under surveillance, the whole extended families of the accused innocents wire-tapped, more that thirty thousand (!) recordings of the conversations, that failed to show any crime.

Mignini also showed that he's a liar and a very small, vindictive and manipulative man. He showed no regard for the victim's family suffering, manipulating and using them to his own needs.

I also think there are signs of narcissistic personality disorder, sociopathy and other disorders in his actions

It's not Exactly winning. The case is just sent to Another court.

If anything was an understatement, it was my saying how the Prosecutor was vilified with unbelievable vitriol here.
How he was/is called all kinds of names, and made the subject of ridiculous unfounded charges.
These quotations from your argument certainly prove exactly what I said, and more
[i]1)his perverted sex fantasies and satanic paranoia.
2) his perversive sexual imagination
3) his need of therapy and heavy medication
4) him being a liar
5) him being manipulative (I thought that was a common description of Knox)

However, all that you argue is overshadowed by your attempts to re write history and ignore facts with this absolutely untrue statement:

Originally Posted by Katody Matrass View Post
Edited by Gaspode:  Edited for moderated thread.

Again we had great number of people under surveillance, the whole extended families of the accused innocents wire-tapped, more that thirty thousand (!) recordings of the conversations, that failed to show any crime.
.

Surely you are aware of the elementary fact that the wiretaps of Sollecito's family resulted in very serious charges and actual criminal indictments against Five (5) members of his family. Aren't you ?
That trial is now scheduled for next year, in case you also missed that fact.

Why then do you argue in your failed attempt to slur the Prosecutor that:
"the whole extended families of the accused innocents wire-tapped, more that thirty thousand (!) recordings of the conversations, that failed to show any crime."
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Old 24th November 2011, 03:16 PM   #30
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I'm afraid someone else is rewriting history.............

Let me repeat, in the face of the desperate but failed attempts to rewrite history :
Nothing from the uncountable number of recordings indicated any guilt in the Knox and Sollecito trial. OTOH many of the most important recordings disappeared. It is possible and in fact probable that the cops disappeared them because they were exculpatory.

The charges against the Sollecito family were brought with regard to the video material showing extreme cops ineptitude, that were released to the media. It is another example of intimidation tactics of the Perugian prosecution, BTW.
Mignini's attempts to intimidate the media and the families of the innocent two are well known. He charged numerous journalists. He charged both Amanda's and Raffaele's families with criminal offences. It doesn't mean they are guilty. I'm afraid it tells us more about Mignini's mental state.

As for Mignini's perversive and obsessive personality ( and who knows, some narcissistic and sociopathic personality disorders might be there, too ) it is well documented that he first came up with the theory of the satanic sexual ritualistic orgy that "went wrong", Halloween ritual killing etc. It's well documented how he obsessed about the vibrators during the trial and how he played his fantasies in court, even inventing dialogue for them.

There are many parallels with the MoF case where he believed in a fantasy satanic cult centered around female sexual organs and involved in ritualistic murders. Just like this time, his fantasy was thrown out by the court who exonerated the large group of people accused by Mignini.

as for his lies, it is well documented how he lied about the interrogation night, inventing various excuses for the lack of recording. It is documented how he manipulated evidence in court to present a false picture.

The latest lie about the "private jet" waiting for Knox was quite desperate and pathetic, to be honest
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Old 24th November 2011, 04:46 PM   #31
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The wiretap story that was linked upthread shows the widespread tapping in Italy not just by Mignini. It is worthy of note that even in Italy Mignini's tapping was considered beyond bounds by a prosecutor and a COURT. The fact that on a technicality the case will be moved means that the only court that judged on the evidence found him guilty.

Protections against invasions of privacy aren't there to protect the guilty they are there to protect the innocent. Clearly if everyone were tapped more crimes would be discovered but at what cost.

The fact that any particular tap turned up a crime doesn't justify the tap. This may difficult for some to understand.
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Old 24th November 2011, 07:09 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post
I don't understand why you think there is something wrong with that.
I'm thinking there might well be a better way to identify whether the body in the casket is the one buried there outside checking the pants size and the hairstyle, especially being as this corpse was under water a while.

Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post
Moreover, I think Mignini is right in the Narducci case.
For the sake of correct iformation, Mignini did not start the investigation: the investigation was started in Florence and it was Giuttari who brought the wiretapping part to the attention of Mignini, to escape the power of Questura of Florence.
I knew it was Giuttari's plotline theory initially, but that Mignini attached himself to it, what is Mignini's version of what happened? I've read the accounts of others, but outside the CNN interview very little from his point of view, do you know the story?


Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post
It's not entirely correct to word it like that: not only he had his conviction canceled, but also his indictment and charges. This is not technically a quashing. And this is not a technicality. This is the fundamental ground of legitimacy on which his defense was based.
What I meant was it didn't speak to the evidence but merely the procedure or process of his conviction, and eliminated it on those grounds, not because he didn't do it, they didn't have the evidence, or that it wasn't a violation of the law. That's what I call 'getting off on a technicality' and if that was the fundamental grounds of his defense then it changed from the reports of him claiming it couldn't be invasive because they didn't (supposedly) 'know' they were being investigated, which he claimed in his CNN interview and other press accounts later.

Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post
It is not correct to state that his trial was moved to another court: his trial was declared void and null. The investigation file collected on him and Giuttari is transferred to another jurisdiction: the Procura of Turin will decide what to do with it, how to use it to investigate whatever or whoever they think, whether there is material to ask for achiviation or formalizing charges on that material.
Do you think anyone will restart the process in Turin?




Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post
To me, the interesting point is that the file includes the Narducci investigation file in it, which was seized and included in the Mignini's trial file. Now the Narducci file could be re-opened again. In my opinion - but also in the opinions of others - the seizure of the Narducci investigation file was the actual purpose for the very existence of a Mignini-Giuttari investigation. The trial against Mignini and Giuttari in other way was an expedient for seizing and locking the other investigation file.
The Narducci file is the real rattlesnake nest.
This would be the equivalent of the 10k page 'case file' in the Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito 'investigation?'

I'm guessing what you mean by this is Mignini was 'on to' something, and that powerful people want to 'cover up' what's in the Narducci trial file?

I dunno about that, but I'm sure there's a fair number of ex-policemen and judiciary who might want all mention of the Monster of Florence case quelled, not everyone shined in those 'investigations' and trials the way I read it.
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Old 24th November 2011, 10:29 PM   #33
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Can anyone give me a 1 paragraph breakdown on the source for the "million dollar PR" meme?
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Old 25th November 2011, 03:38 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
Wouldn't it be much more accurate to state that the lack of dna.... that met the collection and testing standards of the two experts that the Judge had chosen to review the case?
Nope.

If you have a link to the set of standards the collection of this evidence met, I would love to see it.
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Old 25th November 2011, 05:06 AM   #35
pilot padron
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Never saw that one anywhere else

Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
The wiretap story that was linked upthread shows the widespread tapping in Italy not just by Mignini. It is worthy of note that even in Italy Mignini's tapping was considered beyond bounds by a prosecutor and a COURT. The fact that on a technicality the case will be moved means that the only court that judged on the evidence found him guilty.

Protections against invasions of privacy aren't there to protect the guilty they are there to protect the innocent. Clearly if everyone were tapped more crimes would be discovered but at what cost.

The fact that any particular tap turned up a crime doesn't justify the tap. This may difficult for some to understand.

But I guess depending on your agenda, you could use your rather... uhhhh..... unique.... logic and spin about "the only court'.

1) Most I have seen even the usually highly biased Seattle news station KING5 say the Knox Prosecutor *won* his Appeal.
http://www.king5.com/news/cities/sea...134346513.html


Edited by Loss Leader:  Sarcastic attack on another poster deleted. Moderated thread.


2) Most such reports that I have read expect the case will be simply dropped.
They reason that this expectation is supported by:
a) proximity of statute of limitations deadline
b) significant failure so far to even have set a new Court date.

3) Most rational agenda-less observers would conclude that your <snip> argument's logic has not even a scant hint of reasonableness.


Edited by Loss Leader:  More sarcastic abuse of the poster deleted. Moderated Thread.

Last edited by Loss Leader; 25th November 2011 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 25th November 2011, 08:34 AM   #36
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I'm trying the link to the wiretap story one more time -

Without the edit function I'm a little lost
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Old 25th November 2011, 10:56 AM   #37
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Sorry, Rose. I suspect some witty sarcasm.

Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Nope.

If you have a link to the set of standards the collection of this evidence met, I would love to see it.
Rose, I always stand in awe at your sharp wit when arguing.
So, surely your request to me for standards was tongue in cheek.

Two suggestions and a personal observation:

1) You probably know that the Boise State Student Newsletter once said in so many words that their own Dr Hampikian was pretty much the prime reason the dna was challenged successfully by Hellmann's selected academic 'experts'.
Therefore, may I suggest you direct your request for 'standards' to him.

2) You also probably are well aware that Hellmann's academic 'experts' found necessary to cite the Missouri State Highway Patrol's Handbook in their academic, but somewhat less than impressive bibliography about dna standards.
Therefore, may I suggest that maybe the good Highway Patrol people could also help you.


I did note
1) The experts stated under heated cross examination that "anything is possible" as an exasperated justification for some of their most questionable conclusions.
2) Many outside observers stated that these academic experts proved little other than many, many incarcerated murderers convicted on dna evidence, theoretically now could also be judged not guilty

Therefore, may I observe that I really would not even care to see, much less "love" to see the standards you ask me to provide.
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Old 25th November 2011, 11:08 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner View Post
Can anyone give me a 1 paragraph breakdown on the source for the "million dollar PR" meme?
Ultimately it was initiated by Mignini himself, when he found out he was being criticized in the American and British press. He linked it to hiring of Gogerty-Marriott by the besieged parents of Amanda, suggesting all negative press was the result of that. The 'million-dollar' figure no doubt comes from an interview where they revealed they'd spent about a million dollars on expenses as a result of the trial, mainly of course on lawyers, experts, airfare and maintaining two residences. Perhaps Mignini thinks those minor concerns in comparison!
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Old 25th November 2011, 05:14 PM   #39
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Misunderstanding of DNA Forensics?

Originally Posted by pilot padron View Post
Rose, I always stand in awe at your sharp wit when arguing.
So, surely your request to me for standards was tongue in cheek.

Two suggestions and a personal observation:

1) You probably know that the Boise State Student Newsletter once said in so many words that their own Dr Hampikian was pretty much the prime reason the dna was challenged successfully by Hellmann's selected academic 'experts'.
Therefore, may I suggest you direct your request for 'standards' to him.

2) You also probably are well aware that Hellmann's academic 'experts' found necessary to cite the Missouri State Highway Patrol's Handbook in their academic, but somewhat less than impressive bibliography about dna standards.
Therefore, may I suggest that maybe the good Highway Patrol people could also help you.


I did note
1) The experts stated under heated cross examination that "anything is possible" as an exasperated justification for some of their most questionable conclusions.
2) Many outside observers stated that these academic experts proved little other than many, many incarcerated murderers convicted on dna evidence, theoretically now could also be judged not guilty

Therefore, may I observe that I really would not even care to see, much less "love" to see the standards you ask me to provide.
What I see in arguments such as this is a misunderstanding of how DNA forensics are used to convict criminals. DNA is a very precise science, which is why it is considered so damning when DNA results prove someone was at the scene of a crime -- if done correctly, DNA is pretty inarguable. Being as precise as it is, if proper procedures are not followed in the collection and/or testing, the results cannot be relied on.

So, when one of the experts replied to a question in court by saying "anything is possible", that meant that the DNA is totally unreliable to use as evidence of anything. If "anything is possible", that means nothing is certain. DNA analysis is not a type of science where it "might be" the DNA of the person -- if there is a question of the reliability of the analysis, especially if there are many questions, the whole thing should be thrown out.
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Old 25th November 2011, 05:29 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Kaosium View Post
I'm thinking there might well be a better way to identify whether the body in the casket is the one buried there outside checking the pants size and the hairstyle, especially being as this corpse was under water a while.
In fact there were several other problems with the corpse beyond the trousers size (that anyway was not compatible with the corpse found drawned). Another problem for example was the fact that the first body had been in water for a while, was yet in a too advanced state of decomposition to be preserved (coprses in this state have a tyipical quick moulding with liquefaction of internal organs) while the unburied body was still intect in its internal organs and preserved. Apart from the series of pleasant details about the corpse, the point is the Narducci case was not really about what happened with this corpse. In other words the problem is not just to understand if the corpse was the buried one. This investigation lead to a conclusion that members of Narducci's family indeed did obstruct justice and hd the body, but these crimes are expired. The interesting part of the investigation is the connection with the monster of Florence.


Quote:
I knew it was Giuttari's plotline theory initially, but that Mignini attached himself to it, what is Mignini's version of what happened?
Just to clarify. The MoF theories were set before Giuttari by other important florentine judges, such as prosecutor Vigna. The theories brought in by Giuttari were about the involvement of the chief prosecutoer Di Donno in an alleged obstruction of justice on the MoF investigation. These theories were subsequently accepted by Mignini (rightly or wrongly) as an investigation theme.
The theories directly involving Narducci ad relating him to the Monster of Florence investigation were set by using the investigations of Giuttari and merging it with the one where Mignini happaned to found himself in as he was called on the finding of the drawned body; but the whole Procura of Perugia supervised the setting of this new investigation that collected and merged material form different sources.

I never read Mignini's written orders. Neither the one about the Narducci case, nor the one about the Florentine investigation of Di Donno and company.
However the trial for abuse of office was about the latter Giuttari's invesigation on Di Donno: this one was the last step and in fact leaded by Giuttari.
I'm not able to come to a conclusion about the reliability of Michele Giuttari. I understand - retrospectively - that criticisms to his professional approach are possible, there can be issues in his claims and methods, but my knowledge about the details is insufficient for me to have an opinion.

I can say that, by reading the sentencing report about Mignini and Giuttari, there is an absolute lack of kind of evidence to formulize any charge on Mignini, for sure.


Quote:
What I meant was it didn't speak to the evidence but merely the procedure or process of his conviction, and eliminated it on those grounds, not because he didn't do it, they didn't have the evidence, or that it wasn't a violation of the law.That's what I call 'getting off on a technicality' and if that was the fundamental grounds of his defense then it changed from the reports of him claiming it couldn't be invasive because they didn't (supposedly) 'know' they were being investigated, which he claimed in his CNN interview and other press accounts later.
There is a fundamental point here, that I'm afraid you and many other will miss, at least for a while unless you can see it explained repeateadly.
The Mignini's case is not a technicality, and you would never call it "a technicality" if that happened to you or to anyone whom you believe innocent.
It's more like, imagine an Afghani court founds Britney Spears guilty of breaching the Sharia law. On appeal, a higher court rules that the Sharia tribunal was illegitimate since it had no jurisdiction, has no title to apply and interpretat the law on Britney Spears. Therefore the higher court declares the previous indictment and trial entirely illegitimate and null. In other words, the Sharia court is not Britney Spears' judge.
You would never call that "getting off on a technicality". You would never call that way such an event if it hapened to you: if ever happened that someone with no legitimacy "decides" to indict you and iterprets that what you did was illegal (and the party who interprets it is the same that was offendend by your action).

In legal terms, Mignini's position is more favourable than Amanda's position and of Sollecito's.
Mignini was not in fact found "innocent": he was found to be unfairly indicted. Which can be seen as much more than being found not guilty.
No court ever found him guilty of anything in any instance, in fact, because the judges who ruled on him were not his judges. The sentencing report with the opinion of a florentine judge about him has the same legitimacy and value of posters' opinion on JREF: that is nothing. This means no legitimate judge ever found him guilty of anything, and not even found him indictable of anything.

The outcome of his trial - not that of Knox - is the closest thing to an acknowledgment that he was unjustly prosecuted and tried.
Knox was found guilty of calunnia and condemned to pay huge amounts of money. And also Sollecito in the trial of first instance got a conviction: Massei's verdict was overturned but still Massei's report is legitimate and belongs to their trial file; it is still there and usable by the supreme court and for civil purposes. Moreover their murder trial is stil pending, they are still defendants.

The position of Mignini instead is tne cancellation of the entire trial file from all acts and records. Illegitimate, to be considered never existing, not just a judge gives a further opinion about the investigation: no investigation and no indictment was ever legitimate. Not just the verdict and sentencing report or just the trial is null, but the whole process from the roots, included the preliminary investigation with its indictments and rulings: all judiciary acts about Mignini and Giuttari are null.
And, as opposed to the case of Knox and Sollecito, the cases on them are not pending. By now there is no case, no indictment. No legitimate judicial authority ever stated - currently - they should be charged or investigated for something.

Quote:
Do you think anyone will restart the process in Turin?
I have no idea. It's possible. There are only two options: the archiviation of the case, or the request for a trial. If there is a request for a trial, I'm positive that this will never lead to a conviction.

Quote:
This would be the equivalent of the 10k page 'case file' in the Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito 'investigation?'
Minus the judiciary acts, that is judges rulings and opinions. Phone wiretappings, testimonies, are included. But rulings and judges opinions are null.

Quote:
I'm guessing what you mean by this is Mignini was 'on to' something, and that powerful people want to 'cover up' what's in the Narducci trial file?
I don't know, in particular I dont know how powerful. But the issues in the Narducci investigation are many. The key thing is that both the buried person and the body found in the lake were in fact killed, and there was no accidental drawning in the lake. The Narducci case is a case of murder, the Questura of Perugia of that time probably knew this from the very beginning, and this is the reason for its covering.

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I dunno about that, but I'm sure there's a fair number of ex-policemen and judiciary who might want all mention of the Monster of Florence case quelled, not everyone shined in those 'investigations' and trials the way I read it.
Well the Monster of Florence investigations took place mostly in Florence.
On the other hand, a Monster Mystery is always an attraction for investigators, and so I guess such attraction by some may balance the oblivious attitude of others.
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