Faked Picture of British Squaddies Abusing 'Iraqi'?

Jon_in_london · 2nd May 2004, 03:32 AM

The photos I refer to may be viewed here:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews...name_page.html

I would like to state that I am pretty sure that while instances of abuse HAVE taken place- these photos are fake.

I became suspicious that The Mirror suddenly found these pics a day or two after the whole Bahgdad jail story broke- coincidence?

Heres what I see:

Notice the "soldier's" webbing pouches. They appear to be 1. Empty and 2. Unbuckled. Anyone who has done any time in any army will know that your webbing pouches are always tightly stuffed with water, rifle cleaning kit, a dozen or so magazines, mess tins, hexy-cooker and enough food to last 24-48 hours. Whats more, they are always tightly closed because the last thing you want is to loose any of this essential kit.

Look at how clean everything is- looks more like an Islington semi' than a hovel in Basra, no? And the guys shirt looks like a washing powder advert!

This one takes the biscuit! 1. To any soldier, your rifle is the most precious thing you have. The last thing you are going to do is go around hitting things with it! 2. Why adopt that awkward pose when you could just put the boot in? 3. Where is the soldiers rifle-sling?

In short, these pics are posed by someone who has an idea of what a soldier looks like but has made fundamental mistakes that any raw recruit would soon learn.

I cant tell you how angry these pictures make me. I will never buy The Mirror again!

geni · 2nd May 2004, 03:38 AM

you missed some other problems:

Quote:

However the BBC's defence correspondent Paul Adams says sources close to The Queen's Lancashire Regiment believe many aspects of the photographs are suspicious.

He says they believe the pictures may not have even been taken in Iraq.

They believe the rifle is an SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq.

They say soldiers in Iraq wore berets or hard hats - and not floppy hats as in the photos.

They also believe the wrong type of Bedford truck is shown in the background - a type never deployed in Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm

Jon_in_london · 2nd May 2004, 04:01 AM

The guy also has a webbing strap flapping about- a real soldier would that would tape that up to prevent it getting snagged on something.

Im not familiar with the A2 version of the SA80. I didnt realise that the photos were taken in a Bedford not in a house.

Christ!, I'd love to kick Piers Moron in the nuts for this!

Reginald · 2nd May 2004, 04:05 AM

The thing that strikes me, is the lack of movement. Thats flash photography and if that weapon is supposedly being slammed into that prisoner on the bottom, it certainly doesn't look like it. There is absolutely no motion blur. Ok I know cameras are getting good etc but these should be of almost "home" snap quality, not what you have here.

Jon_in_london · 2nd May 2004, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Reginald
The thing that strikes me, is the lack of movement. Thats flash photography and if that weapon is supposedly being slammed into that prisoner on the bottom, it certainly doesn't look like it. There is absolutely no motion blur. Ok I know cameras are getting good etc but these should be of almost "home" snap quality, not what you have here.

Yes, looks very "stage-y". Kind like those old Dr.Who programmes.

Reginald · 2nd May 2004, 04:13 AM

And putting him in an Iraq flag shirt.

(just in case we got the "from another conflict" comments being made?)

I suppose this had to happen. I'm glad I don't buy the mirror.

Jon_in_london · 2nd May 2004, 04:29 AM

Hopefully the MoD will sue the bejesus out of the Mirror.

reprise · 2nd May 2004, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Hopefully the MoD will sue the bejesus out of the Mirror.

You can bet your life that every other British tabloid will be working overtime trying to prove the photos are fake right now, and offering huge sums of money to anyone who can provide evidence that they are fake.

Reginald · 2nd May 2004, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Hopefully the MoD will sue the bejesus out of the Mirror.

They may not be able to sue for the pictures. The Mirror will just defend saying that they published them in good faith etc.

however the accompanying text may have some meat in it for action.

Quote:

Soldier A said:

As we took him back he was getting a beating. He was hit with batons on the knees, fingers, toes, elbows, and head.

He has no bruising on the knees and the other parts are not visible in the images.

Sorry, this stinks.

Exposer · 2nd May 2004, 05:18 AM

I also found these photos highly suspicious. The main thing for me is the fact that the guy is actually wearing an Iraqi national flag shirt?

Zep · 2nd May 2004, 05:56 AM

I would be asking why the webbing camo (which looks to be a jungle pattern) doesn't match the battledress camo (which looks to be a desert or possibly sub-arctic pattern). Would kit be issued like that? Soldierly people who know???

The bag covering the head of the "prisoner" looks to be nice and crisp and new too. Wouldn't an old dusty smelly one be a lot easier to find in Iraq?

And I would also imagine that if I had taken a fairly full-blooded rifle-butt strike to the family jewels, I would NOT remain with my legs outstretched and my back straight up. Instead, I would almost certainly be lying sideways in the foetal position and puking into my face-mask.

Not to mention all the other soldierly factoids that don't add up.

No, it's a sham and a piss-poor one at that. But typical of a Murdoch-style newspaper - as long as it sells copy, they will print it.

a_unique_person · 2nd May 2004, 06:00 AM

I'm not saying they are genuine, but minor variations in kit are quite common, IIRC. That is, there are often shortages of uniform, equipment, etc, that are made up with private purchases, or cast offs.

Peter Jenkins · 2nd May 2004, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zep

No, it's a sham and a piss-poor one at that. But typical of a Murdoch-style newspaper - as long as it sells copy, they will print it.

I agree with the "Murdoch style". But the fact is, it isn't a Murdoch newspaper and, ironically, Murdochs main UK tabloid (The Sun) is likely to be the one that comes down hardest on 'the Mirror' when these photos are revealed to be staged.
P

Zep · 2nd May 2004, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I'm not saying they are genuine, but minor variations in kit are quite common, IIRC. That is, there are often shortages of uniform, equipment, etc, that are made up with private purchases, or cast offs.

In the British army? I suspect not... And especially for elite troops going to serve in a highly publicised theatre? Don't they get all the nice new kit and shiny new guns?

Zep · 2nd May 2004, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Jenkins
I agree with the "Murdoch style". But the fact is, it isn't a Murdoch newspaper and, ironically, Murdochs main UK tabloid (The Sun) is likely to be the one that comes down hardest on 'the Mirror' when these photos are revealed to be staged.
P

So will THAT sell bulk copy?

Reginald · 2nd May 2004, 06:39 AM

The sad thing is it won't matter how unrealistic this is. It will have the same effect that a "real" image would have once it gets to the arab press. I hope the Mirror realise just how many UK troops could suffer as a consequence of this. I would have hoped that the Mirror could spot the things that have been pointed out here.

Jon_in_london · 3rd May 2004, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zep
In the British army? I suspect not... And especially for elite troops going to serve in a highly publicised theatre? Don't they get all the nice new kit and shiny new guns?

AUP is right, Zep. While the kit our squaddies in Iraq are given is generally shiny-er than normal (new version of SA80) many still didnt get adequate kit like desert boots, gas masks etc.... I have seen pics of sojers in Iraq with half desert/half green kit on.

Zep · 3rd May 2004, 01:51 AM

JIL - re kit, oh dear. Does that mean Mr Blair sent the lads out all unprepared? Wearing kit that makes them targets? Why not the old red coat of yore with white blanco straps crossing over the front to act as a target?

CFLarsen · 3rd May 2004, 01:59 AM

Look at the knees. They are completely unbruised - he has never crawled on fours.

"OK, we're going to beat you up! Here's a nice clean Tshirt and a brand new hood...we'll place you, unbruised, in the corner of a spot-clean truck..."

Nope, doesn't hold water.

Quote:

Originally posted by Reginald
The sad thing is it won't matter how unrealistic this is. It will have the same effect that a "real" image would have once it gets to the arab press. I hope the Mirror realise just how many UK troops could suffer as a consequence of this. I would have hoped that the Mirror could spot the things that have been pointed out here.

Perhaps we should offer our skeptical services, for a fee paid to the JREF?

Brian the Snail · 3rd May 2004, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by reprise

You can bet your life that every other British tabloid will be working overtime trying to prove the photos are fake right now, and offering huge sums of money to anyone who can provide evidence that they are fake.

And sure enough here's what today's Sun has to say about it:

The Sun

Drooper · 3rd May 2004, 02:07 AM

The feature I like is the bright clean and freashly ironed t-shirt (note the neat crease on the left sleeve in the second photo).

Beat them, piss on them, then give them a nice clean shirt.

Brian the Snail · 3rd May 2004, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drooper
Beat them, piss on them, then give them a nice clean shirt.

"I was tortured by British squaddies, and all I got was this lousy tee-shirt."

reprise · 3rd May 2004, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian the Snail

And sure enough here's what today's Sun has to say about it:

The Sun

Can I claim the million now?

Brian the Snail · 3rd May 2004, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by reprise

Can I claim the million now?

No, but you get a lousy tee-shirt. See, it even has the Iraqi flag on the front.

Reginald · 3rd May 2004, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian the Snail

No, but you get a lousy tee-shirt. See, it even has the Iraqi flag on the front.

Reginald · 3rd May 2004, 03:14 AM

Minor satisfaction I know but I bet the Mirror paid a fortune for those pictures and the story (It looks in this case as if "Story" is the right word).

However the Mirror are sticking by the whole thing and still claiming the pictures are authentic.

Exposer · 3rd May 2004, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Reginald
The sad thing is it won't matter how unrealistic this is. It will have the same effect that a "real" image would have once it gets to the arab press. I hope the Mirror realise just how many UK troops could suffer as a consequence of this. I would have hoped that the Mirror could spot the things that have been pointed out here.

I agree with this completely. The Arab media and average Abrabs on the street are utterly without skepticism when it comes to any negative claims about the U.S. or U.K.

This is very unfortunate, and the Mirror should pay some kind of price if this is proven to be a fraud. At a minimum, regular old Brits can simply refuse to buy the paper as a rebuke to putting British lives at risk with this story.

a_unique_person · 3rd May 2004, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zep
In the British army? I suspect not... And especially for elite troops going to serve in a highly publicised theatre? Don't they get all the nice new kit and shiny new guns?

We are talking about a war here, shortages, losses, etc, are all common.

a_unique_person · 3rd May 2004, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Reginald
Minor satisfaction I know but I bet the Mirror paid a fortune for those pictures and the story (It looks in this case as if "Story" is the right word).

However the Mirror are sticking by the whole thing and still claiming the pictures are authentic.

And claiming they have more. We will all just have to wait for further information.

reprise · 3rd May 2004, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Exposer

I agree with this completely. The Arab media and average Abrabs on the street are utterly without skepticism when it comes to any negative claims about the U.S. or U.K.

This is very unfortunate, and the Mirror should pay some kind of price if this is proven to be a fraud. At a minimum, regular old Brits can simply refuse to buy the paper as a rebuke to putting British lives at risk with this story.

The British tabloid press didn't become so successful because the British hate sensational reporting (however inaccurate).

Jocko · 3rd May 2004, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Exposer
I also found these photos highly suspicious. The main thing for me is the fact that the guy is actually wearing an Iraqi national flag shirt?

No kidding. I was reminded of the "BABY MILK FACTORY" workers in Baghdad picking through the remains of their "factory" during GW1... with the oddly vague name of their company written in english on their backs for the camera.

These photos are some of the worst fakes I've ever seen. Who's the communications director of the British Army, Harvey Korman? Ed Wood? Who the hell could take this stuff seriously?

Jocko · 3rd May 2004, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zep
JIL - re kit, oh dear. Does that mean Mr Blair sent the lads out all unprepared? Wearing kit that makes them targets? Why not the old red coat of yore with white blanco straps crossing over the front to act as a target?

This is incontrovertable evidence that the British have invaded Syria. Look, that's clearly the Mediterranian behind him.*

*Or, as AUP would say, we'll just have to wait for the rest of the story to come out before we can decide if this is a blatant fraud or not.

Er, the photos, I mean. Everyone knows AUP is a fraud.

Reginald · 3rd May 2004, 07:22 AM

The Mirror say they are not fakes because the soldiers who supplied the story say they are not fakes.

Here's the latest. Judge thier comments for yourselves.

Mirror

JamesM · 3rd May 2004, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Reginald
The Mirror say they are not fakes because the sldiers who supplied the story say they are not fakes.

Here's the latest. Judge for yourselves.

Mirror

Yeah, I just loved that. That headline! "WE TOLD THE TRUTH" - hey guys, how about "WE TOLD THE TRUTH - NO, HONESTLY! NO, WE DID! LOOK, JUST SHUT UP, ALRIGHT?"

American · 3rd May 2004, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

I would like to state that I am pretty sure that while instances of abuse HAVE taken place- these photos are fake.

I became suspicious that The Mirror suddenly found these pics a day or two after the whole Bahgdad jail story broke- coincidence?

Notice the "soldier's" webbing pouches. They appear to be 1. Empty and 2. Unbuckled. Anyone who has done any time in any army will know that your webbing pouches are always tightly stuffed with water, rifle cleaning kit, a dozen or so magazines, mess tins, hexy-cooker and enough food to last 24-48 hours. Whats more, they are always tightly closed because the last thing you want is to loose any of this essential kit.

Look at how clean everything is- looks more like an Islington semi' than a hovel in Basra, no? And the guys shirt looks like a washing powder advert!

This one takes the biscuit! 1. To any soldier, your rifle is the most precious thing you have. The last thing you are going to do is go around hitting things with it! 2. Why adopt that awkward pose when you could just put the boot in? 3. Where is the soldiers rifle-sling?

In short, these pics are posed by someone who has an idea of what a soldier looks like but has made fundamental mistakes that any raw recruit would soon learn.

I cant tell you how angry these pictures make me. I will never buy The Mirror again!

Most importantly - don't take pictures of your crime.

Um, that's "crime". I support torture, for as long as third world scum is willing to do it to us. There are no limits when your own life is at stake, and the lives of those in your command. You owe it to them.

Shaun from Scotland · 3rd May 2004, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I'm not saying they are genuine, but minor variations in kit are quite common, IIRC. That is, there are often shortages of uniform, equipment, etc, that are made up with private purchases, or cast offs.

This is true but there is no way that a mk 1 SA-80 would be issued. And there is absolutely no way It would be issued without an ID no on the butt. There is a fuller picture of it in several papers today and it is blank where the Army put ID no's on the butt. It's most likely a replica which you can buy in loads of places.

Abuse has undoubtedly gone on. But these pictures stink........

I also have it on good authority from a Scots Guardsman that if he laced his boots up criss-cross fashion he'd be on a charge quicker than you can say "fake"..........

Brian the Snail · 3rd May 2004, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JamesM

Yeah, I just loved that. That headline! "WE TOLD THE TRUTH" - hey guys, how about "WE TOLD THE TRUTH - NO, HONESTLY! NO, WE DID! LOOK, JUST SHUT UP, ALRIGHT?"

Coming from the tabloids, that's usually a cast iron guarantee that it's complete bollocks.

Anybody else remember the Sun headline a few days after the Hillsborough disaster "The Truth." I believe that The Sun is still boycotted in parts of Merseyside for that one.

Checkmite · 3rd May 2004, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Exposer
I also found these photos highly suspicious. The main thing for me is the fact that the guy is actually wearing an Iraqi national flag shirt?

Not only that; it's a version of the Iraq flag that hasn't been used in nearly 20 years! In 1988, the flag was amended to add the words "Allah Akhbar" (God is Great) in Arabic between the stars. Every flag you see today in Iraq has them - except the one on this "prisoner's" shirt. Not very likely, is it?

Mr Manifesto · 3rd May 2004, 10:34 AM

I have a World Exclusive for everyone:

(click on pic for link)

Bjorn · 3rd May 2004, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by American
Most importantly - don't take pictures of your crime.

Um, that's "crime". I support torture, for as long as third world scum is willing to do it to us. There are no limits when your own life is at stake, and the lives of those in your command. You owe it to them.

I am not surprised to see that you support torture. However, your support of it doesn't make it a 'crime' - it it still a crime and I have a reasonable hope that you will be court-martialed, found guilty and punished accordingly - all by your own fellow Americans.

2nd May 2004, 03:32 AM	#1
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Faked Picture of British Squaddies Abusing 'Iraqi'? The photos I refer to may be viewed here: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews...name_page.html I would like to state that I am pretty sure that while instances of abuse HAVE taken place- these photos are fake. I became suspicious that The Mirror suddenly found these pics a day or two after the whole Bahgdad jail story broke- coincidence? Heres what I see: Notice the "soldier's" webbing pouches. They appear to be 1. Empty and 2. Unbuckled. Anyone who has done any time in any army will know that your webbing pouches are always tightly stuffed with water, rifle cleaning kit, a dozen or so magazines, mess tins, hexy-cooker and enough food to last 24-48 hours. Whats more, they are always tightly closed because the last thing you want is to loose any of this essential kit. Look at how clean everything is- looks more like an Islington semi' than a hovel in Basra, no? And the guys shirt looks like a washing powder advert! This one takes the biscuit! 1. To any soldier, your rifle is the most precious thing you have. The last thing you are going to do is go around hitting things with it! 2. Why adopt that awkward pose when you could just put the boot in? 3. Where is the soldiers rifle-sling? In short, these pics are posed by someone who has an idea of what a soldier looks like but has made fundamental mistakes that any raw recruit would soon learn. I cant tell you how angry these pictures make me. I will never buy The Mirror again!
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

2nd May 2004, 04:01 AM	#3
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	The guy also has a webbing strap flapping about- a real soldier would that would tape that up to prevent it getting snagged on something. Im not familiar with the A2 version of the SA80. I didnt realise that the photos were taken in a Bedford not in a house. Christ!, I'd love to kick Piers Moron in the nuts for this!
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

2nd May 2004, 04:05 AM	#4
Reginald Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,641	The thing that strikes me, is the lack of movement. Thats flash photography and if that weapon is supposedly being slammed into that prisoner on the bottom, it certainly doesn't look like it. There is absolutely no motion blur. Ok I know cameras are getting good etc but these should be of almost "home" snap quality, not what you have here.
	__________________ No one's in the dark, no one's in the corner and no one's in the wardrobe just waiting to pounce.

2nd May 2004, 04:07 AM	#5
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Quote: Originally posted by Reginald The thing that strikes me, is the lack of movement. Thats flash photography and if that weapon is supposedly being slammed into that prisoner on the bottom, it certainly doesn't look like it. There is absolutely no motion blur. Ok I know cameras are getting good etc but these should be of almost "home" snap quality, not what you have here. Yes, looks very "stage-y". Kind like those old Dr.Who programmes.
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

2nd May 2004, 04:13 AM	#6
Reginald Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,641	And putting him in an Iraq flag shirt. (just in case we got the "from another conflict" comments being made?) I suppose this had to happen. I'm glad I don't buy the mirror.
	__________________ No one's in the dark, no one's in the corner and no one's in the wardrobe just waiting to pounce.

2nd May 2004, 03:38 AM	#2
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,582	you missed some other problems: Quote: However the BBC's defence correspondent Paul Adams says sources close to The Queen's Lancashire Regiment believe many aspects of the photographs are suspicious. He says they believe the pictures may not have even been taken in Iraq. They believe the rifle is an SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq. They say soldiers in Iraq wore berets or hard hats - and not floppy hats as in the photos. They also believe the wrong type of Bedford truck is shown in the background - a type never deployed in Iraq. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm

2nd May 2004, 04:29 AM	#7
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Hopefully the MoD will sue the bejesus out of the Mirror.
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

2nd May 2004, 04:32 AM	#8
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london Hopefully the MoD will sue the bejesus out of the Mirror. You can bet your life that every other British tabloid will be working overtime trying to prove the photos are fake right now, and offering huge sums of money to anyone who can provide evidence that they are fake.
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	__________________ It's a Feathertail Glider.

2nd May 2004, 04:39 AM	#9
Reginald Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,641	Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london Hopefully the MoD will sue the bejesus out of the Mirror. They may not be able to sue for the pictures. The Mirror will just defend saying that they published them in good faith etc. however the accompanying text may have some meat in it for action. Quote: Soldier A said: As we took him back he was getting a beating. He was hit with batons on the knees, fingers, toes, elbows, and head. He has no bruising on the knees and the other parts are not visible in the images. Sorry, this stinks.
	__________________ No one's in the dark, no one's in the corner and no one's in the wardrobe just waiting to pounce.

2nd May 2004, 05:18 AM	#10
Exposer Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 127	I also found these photos highly suspicious. The main thing for me is the fact that the guy is actually wearing an Iraqi national flag shirt?
Exposer Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 127

2nd May 2004, 05:56 AM	#11
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	I would be asking why the webbing camo (which looks to be a jungle pattern) doesn't match the battledress camo (which looks to be a desert or possibly sub-arctic pattern). Would kit be issued like that? Soldierly people who know??? The bag covering the head of the "prisoner" looks to be nice and crisp and new too. Wouldn't an old dusty smelly one be a lot easier to find in Iraq? And I would also imagine that if I had taken a fairly full-blooded rifle-butt strike to the family jewels, I would NOT remain with my legs outstretched and my back straight up. Instead, I would almost certainly be lying sideways in the foetal position and puking into my face-mask. Not to mention all the other soldierly factoids that don't add up. No, it's a sham and a piss-poor one at that. But typical of a Murdoch-style newspaper - as long as it sells copy, they will print it.
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

2nd May 2004, 06:00 AM	#12
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,343	I'm not saying they are genuine, but minor variations in kit are quite common, IIRC. That is, there are often shortages of uniform, equipment, etc, that are made up with private purchases, or cast offs.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

2nd May 2004, 06:02 AM	#13
Peter Jenkins Muse Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 561	Quote: Originally posted by Zep No, it's a sham and a piss-poor one at that. But typical of a Murdoch-style newspaper - as long as it sells copy, they will print it. I agree with the "Murdoch style". But the fact is, it isn't a Murdoch newspaper and, ironically, Murdochs main UK tabloid (The Sun) is likely to be the one that comes down hardest on 'the Mirror' when these photos are revealed to be staged. P
Peter Jenkins Muse Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 561

2nd May 2004, 06:20 AM	#14
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person I'm not saying they are genuine, but minor variations in kit are quite common, IIRC. That is, there are often shortages of uniform, equipment, etc, that are made up with private purchases, or cast offs. In the British army? I suspect not... And especially for elite troops going to serve in a highly publicised theatre? Don't they get all the nice new kit and shiny new guns?
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

2nd May 2004, 06:21 AM	#15
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	Quote: Originally posted by Peter Jenkins I agree with the "Murdoch style". But the fact is, it isn't a Murdoch newspaper and, ironically, Murdochs main UK tabloid (The Sun) is likely to be the one that comes down hardest on 'the Mirror' when these photos are revealed to be staged. P So will THAT sell bulk copy?
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

2nd May 2004, 06:39 AM	#16
Reginald Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,641	The sad thing is it won't matter how unrealistic this is. It will have the same effect that a "real" image would have once it gets to the arab press. I hope the Mirror realise just how many UK troops could suffer as a consequence of this. I would have hoped that the Mirror could spot the things that have been pointed out here.
	__________________ No one's in the dark, no one's in the corner and no one's in the wardrobe just waiting to pounce.

3rd May 2004, 01:43 AM	#17
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Quote: Originally posted by Zep In the British army? I suspect not... And especially for elite troops going to serve in a highly publicised theatre? Don't they get all the nice new kit and shiny new guns? AUP is right, Zep. While the kit our squaddies in Iraq are given is generally shiny-er than normal (new version of SA80) many still didnt get adequate kit like desert boots, gas masks etc.... I have seen pics of sojers in Iraq with half desert/half green kit on.
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

3rd May 2004, 01:51 AM	#18
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	JIL - re kit, oh dear. Does that mean Mr Blair sent the lads out all unprepared? Wearing kit that makes them targets? Why not the old red coat of yore with white blanco straps crossing over the front to act as a target?
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

3rd May 2004, 01:59 AM	#19
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Look at the knees. They are completely unbruised - he has never crawled on fours. "OK, we're going to beat you up! Here's a nice clean Tshirt and a brand new hood...we'll place you, unbruised, in the corner of a spot-clean truck..." Nope, doesn't hold water. Quote: Originally posted by Reginald The sad thing is it won't matter how unrealistic this is. It will have the same effect that a "real" image would have once it gets to the arab press. I hope the Mirror realise just how many UK troops could suffer as a consequence of this. I would have hoped that the Mirror could spot the things that have been pointed out here. Perhaps we should offer our skeptical services, for a fee paid to the JREF?
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

3rd May 2004, 02:05 AM	#20
Brian the Snail Muse Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 963	Quote: Originally posted by reprise You can bet your life that every other British tabloid will be working overtime trying to prove the photos are fake right now, and offering huge sums of money to anyone who can provide evidence that they are fake. And sure enough here's what today's Sun has to say about it: The Sun
Brian the Snail Muse Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 963

3rd May 2004, 02:07 AM	#21
Drooper Guest Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,983	The feature I like is the bright clean and freashly ironed t-shirt (note the neat crease on the left sleeve in the second photo). Beat them, piss on them, then give them a nice clean shirt.
Drooper Guest Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,983

3rd May 2004, 02:11 AM	#22
Brian the Snail Muse Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 963	Quote: Originally posted by Drooper Beat them, piss on them, then give them a nice clean shirt. "I was tortured by British squaddies, and all I got was this lousy tee-shirt."
Brian the Snail Muse Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 963

3rd May 2004, 02:12 AM	#23
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	Quote: Originally posted by Brian the Snail And sure enough here's what today's Sun has to say about it: The Sun Can I claim the million now?
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	__________________ It's a Feathertail Glider.

3rd May 2004, 02:28 AM	#24
Brian the Snail Muse Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 963	Quote: Originally posted by reprise Can I claim the million now? No, but you get a lousy tee-shirt. See, it even has the Iraqi flag on the front.
Brian the Snail Muse Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 963

3rd May 2004, 02:43 AM	#25
Reginald Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,641	Quote: Originally posted by Brian the Snail No, but you get a lousy tee-shirt. See, it even has the Iraqi flag on the front.
	__________________ No one's in the dark, no one's in the corner and no one's in the wardrobe just waiting to pounce.

3rd May 2004, 03:14 AM	#26
Reginald Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,641	Minor satisfaction I know but I bet the Mirror paid a fortune for those pictures and the story (It looks in this case as if "Story" is the right word). However the Mirror are sticking by the whole thing and still claiming the pictures are authentic.
	__________________ No one's in the dark, no one's in the corner and no one's in the wardrobe just waiting to pounce.

3rd May 2004, 03:24 AM	#27
Exposer Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 127	Quote: Originally posted by Reginald The sad thing is it won't matter how unrealistic this is. It will have the same effect that a "real" image would have once it gets to the arab press. I hope the Mirror realise just how many UK troops could suffer as a consequence of this. I would have hoped that the Mirror could spot the things that have been pointed out here. I agree with this completely. The Arab media and average Abrabs on the street are utterly without skepticism when it comes to any negative claims about the U.S. or U.K. This is very unfortunate, and the Mirror should pay some kind of price if this is proven to be a fraud. At a minimum, regular old Brits can simply refuse to buy the paper as a rebuke to putting British lives at risk with this story.
Exposer Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 127

3rd May 2004, 03:26 AM	#28
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,343	Quote: Originally posted by Zep In the British army? I suspect not... And especially for elite troops going to serve in a highly publicised theatre? Don't they get all the nice new kit and shiny new guns? We are talking about a war here, shortages, losses, etc, are all common.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

3rd May 2004, 03:27 AM	#29
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,343	Quote: Originally posted by Reginald Minor satisfaction I know but I bet the Mirror paid a fortune for those pictures and the story (It looks in this case as if "Story" is the right word). However the Mirror are sticking by the whole thing and still claiming the pictures are authentic. And claiming they have more. We will all just have to wait for further information.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

3rd May 2004, 03:30 AM	#30
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	Quote: Originally posted by Exposer I agree with this completely. The Arab media and average Abrabs on the street are utterly without skepticism when it comes to any negative claims about the U.S. or U.K. This is very unfortunate, and the Mirror should pay some kind of price if this is proven to be a fraud. At a minimum, regular old Brits can simply refuse to buy the paper as a rebuke to putting British lives at risk with this story. The British tabloid press didn't become so successful because the British hate sensational reporting (however inaccurate).
reprise Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,859	__________________ It's a Feathertail Glider.

3rd May 2004, 06:53 AM	#31
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Quote: Originally posted by Exposer I also found these photos highly suspicious. The main thing for me is the fact that the guy is actually wearing an Iraqi national flag shirt? No kidding. I was reminded of the "BABY MILK FACTORY" workers in Baghdad picking through the remains of their "factory" during GW1... with the oddly vague name of their company written in english on their backs for the camera. These photos are some of the worst fakes I've ever seen. Who's the communications director of the British Army, Harvey Korman? Ed Wood? Who the hell could take this stuff seriously?
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

3rd May 2004, 06:56 AM	#32
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Quote: Originally posted by Zep JIL - re kit, oh dear. Does that mean Mr Blair sent the lads out all unprepared? Wearing kit that makes them targets? Why not the old red coat of yore with white blanco straps crossing over the front to act as a target? This is incontrovertable evidence that the British have invaded Syria. Look, that's clearly the Mediterranian behind him.* *Or, as AUP would say, we'll just have to wait for the rest of the story to come out before we can decide if this is a blatant fraud or not. Er, the photos, I mean. Everyone knows AUP is a fraud.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

3rd May 2004, 07:22 AM	#33
Reginald Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,641	The Mirror say they are not fakes because the soldiers who supplied the story say they are not fakes. Here's the latest. Judge thier comments for yourselves. Mirror
	__________________ No one's in the dark, no one's in the corner and no one's in the wardrobe just waiting to pounce.

3rd May 2004, 07:24 AM	#34
JamesM Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,823	Quote: Originally posted by Reginald The Mirror say they are not fakes because the sldiers who supplied the story say they are not fakes. Here's the latest. Judge for yourselves. Mirror Yeah, I just loved that. That headline! "WE TOLD THE TRUTH" - hey guys, how about "WE TOLD THE TRUTH - NO, HONESTLY! NO, WE DID! LOOK, JUST SHUT UP, ALRIGHT?"
JamesM Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,823	__________________ "When we type away on discussion boards and post comments on our blogs, it feels like we’re sitting outside a pub in the evening sunshine with our attractive, cool friends – but we aren’t. That’s something we used to do before we got addicted to the internet." - Jon Ronson

3rd May 2004, 07:38 AM	#35
American Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: CA Posts: 3,842	Re: Faked Picture of British Squaddies Abusing 'Iraqi'? Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london I would like to state that I am pretty sure that while instances of abuse HAVE taken place- these photos are fake. I became suspicious that The Mirror suddenly found these pics a day or two after the whole Bahgdad jail story broke- coincidence? Notice the "soldier's" webbing pouches. They appear to be 1. Empty and 2. Unbuckled. Anyone who has done any time in any army will know that your webbing pouches are always tightly stuffed with water, rifle cleaning kit, a dozen or so magazines, mess tins, hexy-cooker and enough food to last 24-48 hours. Whats more, they are always tightly closed because the last thing you want is to loose any of this essential kit. Look at how clean everything is- looks more like an Islington semi' than a hovel in Basra, no? And the guys shirt looks like a washing powder advert! This one takes the biscuit! 1. To any soldier, your rifle is the most precious thing you have. The last thing you are going to do is go around hitting things with it! 2. Why adopt that awkward pose when you could just put the boot in? 3. Where is the soldiers rifle-sling? In short, these pics are posed by someone who has an idea of what a soldier looks like but has made fundamental mistakes that any raw recruit would soon learn. I cant tell you how angry these pictures make me. I will never buy The Mirror again! Most importantly - don't take pictures of your crime. Um, that's "crime". I support torture, for as long as third world scum is willing to do it to us. There are no limits when your own life is at stake, and the lives of those in your command. You owe it to them.