And the boats keep coming

[Hallo Alfie]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

You admit that there isn't a queue yet insist on using that term.

Until I have a better word, sure.

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Politicians and others should stop using these deceptive words that do nothing more than demonize those who arrive on boats. It makes it easier to sell harsh policies though.

That is possible, I guess.
I take exception though to the accusation (implied or otherwise) that everyone who uses that term (in the absence of something better) is trying to demonise anyone.

But what would you call it when people have to wait for an opportunity to come here and there are only limited places? In essence they have to wait their turn.

Give me a different term to use and I will use it.

The lack of more accurate wording does not mean the issue does not exist.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

Until I have a better word, sure.

A better lable to a phenomena that you admit doesn't exist. Why?

Quote:

That is possible, I guess.
I take exception though to the accusation (implied or otherwise) that everyone who uses that term (in the absence of something better) is trying to demonise anyone.

If you insist on a word that does nothing more than appeal to our sense of fair play then that is what you are doing.

Quote:

But what would you call it when people have to wait for an opportunity to come here and there are only limited places? In essence they have to wait their turn.

Give me a different term to use and I will use it.

The lack of more accurate wording does not mean the issue does not exist.

I suggest you don't characterize the actions of these people in such simplistic and emotional ways.

[Hallo Alfie]

Big big sigh.

Do people miss out on a chance to get to Australia because others beat them to it (eg. come by boat)? The answer is a definite and emphatic yes.

If you do not wish me (or others) to call it a queue, then let's give it another name. If not, I will continue to call it the "proverbial queue" and simply ignore all protests.

Fair enough?

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

Big big sigh.

Do people miss out on a chance to get to Australia because others beat them to it (eg. come by boat)? The answer is a definite and emphatic yes.

If you do not wish me (or others) to call it a queue, then let's give it another name. If not, I will continue to call it the "proverbial queue" and simply ignore all protests.

Fair enough?

Is there an actual queue that they are aware of jumping and therefore guilty of such an "unAustralian" act? No.

I was more focused on the politicians and political commentators. You can make your own call.

[Sideroxylon]

double

[Hallo Alfie]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Is there an actual queue that they are aware of jumping and therefore guilty of such an "unAustralian" act? No.

I think I have your answer; as per above, I will simply continue to refer to it as the "proverbial queue".

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

How come we never here about all the "queue jumpers" who arrive at our airports every year and outnumber boat arrivals a factor of 10?

Because they either have the documentation to get the visa, or have the money to pay someone for forged documents to get the visa. Apparently it's only bad if you pay people smugglers to come to this country.

[Hallo Alfie]

Originally Posted by Wildy

Because they either have the documentation to get the visa, or have the money to pay someone for forged documents to get the visa. Apparently it's only bad if you pay people smugglers to come to this country.

"Forged documents"? Citations please.

[wombatwal]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

Big big sigh.

Do people miss out on a chance to get to Australia because others beat them to it (eg. come by boat)? The answer is a definite and emphatic yes.

If you do not wish me (or others) to call it a queue, then let's give it another name. If not, I will continue to call it the "proverbial queue" and simply ignore all protests.

Fair enough?

Bloody hell, they are refugees, there is nothing orderly about how they leave their homeland and how they arrive at their preferred port.
I am sure a lot of people who flee their homelands are just happy to be out of danger. Where they eventually end up, they may not put much thought to it, they are desperate remember. Maybe a lot of them are hoping to go home when things settle down, I don't know.
The words you want are probably "desperate refugees", not a queue.

[Hallo Alfie]

So why does one "desperate refugee" get the nod ahead of another "desperate refugee"? Are those that have means and geography somehow more desperate than those that don't?

I also wonder at the "queue" idea when our esteemed leader uses the term. Surely if it is good enough for her....

Gillard said of the Malaysian Solution
http://www.news.com.au/national/care...-1226228380452

The key message this will deliver to people smugglers and those seeking to make the dangerous sea voyage to Australia is: do not get on that boat.Under this arrangement, if you arrive in Australian waters and are taken to Malaysia you will go to the back of the queue.

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

"Forged documents"? Citations please.

Refugee Council:

Originally Posted by Refugee Council, Australia's Refugee Program, FAQ

Such people are called asylum seekers. Those who come to Australia have usually entered with a visitors', student or other temporary visa. Some arrive with no documents or with false documents.

Arriving without appropriate papers should not be interpreted as an attempt to defraud the system. By definition, refugees are people who are at risk of persecution. In most cases, the agent of persecution is their government. Applying for a passport and/or an exit visa can be far too dangerous for some refugees; so too can be an approach to an Australian Embassy for a visa. These actions can put their lives, and those of their families, at risk. In such cases refugees may have to travel on forged documents or bypass regular migration channels and arrive without papers.

Or this SMH article:

Originally Posted by SMH, 1/6/11. Processing Asylum Seekers: How it Works

For asylum seekers who arrive by plane, the process is markedly different.

They have passports and a visa, usually a tourist, business or student visa, although some of the documentation would be fake.

The fake documents often cost up to $US2000, and occasionally more, Mr Karapanagiotidis said. These asylum seekers frequently came from Iran, Zimbabwe and Burma.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by philkensebben

Er I never said Somalian refugees werent deserving of a place in Australia.

The Somali refugee population is quite large now, in Australia. They haven't been coming by boat, so they must have come here in other ways. Alfie's concern is a little over stated.

[wombatwal]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

Gillard said of the Malaysian Solution
http://www.news.com.au/national/care...-1226228380452

The key message this will deliver to people smugglers and those seeking to make the dangerous sea voyage to Australia is: do not get on that boat.Under this arrangement, if you arrive in Australian waters and are taken to Malaysia you will go to the back of the queue.

What!!
You are quoting the worst Prime Minister ever.
No one is listening to her.
No one takes any notice of the worst Prime Minister ever.
Did you not know that Alfie.
Still no evidence of a queue.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

I think I have your answer; as per above, I will simply continue to refer to it as the "proverbial queue".

That works just as well to frame the situation in a contrived manner.

[Hallo Alfie]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

The Somali refugee population is quite large now, in Australia. They haven't been coming by boat, so they must have come here in other ways. Alfie's concern is a little over stated.

Firstly please provide some evidence, citations and a reason why you believe this nonsense.
Second, are the numbers below understated in terms of concern?
Third, the Somalian situation is just one example of people being pushed further back in the QUEUE by others.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/worl...cies-warn.html

Last year’s famine in southern Somalia saw Dadaab’s population swell by 160,000 to its present 465,000. As a result, Dadaab is running desperately short of funds for food and vital services, according to an appeal by eight aid agencies, including Oxfam and Save the Children.

The organizations warned that they face a $25-million shortfall for their humanitarian operations in the coming three months, putting 200,000 refugees at risk. From September, 50,000 refugees will have no water and sanitation facilities, according to the agencies, unless fresh funding arrives.

They also warned that 130,000 people could soon be without adequate shelter, living in flimsy plastic structures that deteriorate quickly in the harsh weather.

[Hallo Alfie]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

That works just as well to frame the situation in a contrived manner.

In the absence of something more accurate, it will suffice. I will ignore the protests on same pending something better.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

In the absence of something more accurate, it will suffice. I will ignore the protests on same pending something better.

So you are happy to hold these people to account for failing to adhere to a principal of behavior that by your own admission does not apply. There is no queue that these people can be reasonably expected to be aware of. Further it is easy to argue that they should not be thought of badly for jumping a queue even if a well defined one existed.

Branding asylum seekers who arrive illegally by boats as "queue jumpers" demonises them in a cheap appeal to the popular Australian principle of fair play and makes it easy to apply harsh policies against them.

[Hallo Alfie]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Branding asylum seekers who arrive illegally by boats as "queue jumpers" demonises them in a cheap appeal to the popular Australian principle of fair play and makes it easy to apply harsh policies against them.

Illegally? I'd have thought illegal an even worse a pejorative than queue jumper.

So be it then: "Illegal asylum seeker" it is. As opposed to the legal ones from (say) Somalia.

[Wildy]

Except that seeking asylum isn't illegal. Neither is showing up in a boat seeking asylum.

[Hallo Alfie]

According to Sidey it is.

[Sideroxylon]

Is it not illegal to arrive or attempt to arrive in Australia without a visa?

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by Wildy

Except that seeking asylum isn't illegal. Neither is showing up in a boat seeking asylum.

I may have been imprecise and naive in my language choice but I hope I will be given some charity of interpretation of what I wrote.

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Is it not illegal to arrive or attempt to arrive in Australia without a visa?

That depends on why you're attempting to arrive here. As far as I'm aware it's not illegal to seek asylum, nor is it an offence to arrive without a visa when you are seeking asylum.

[lionking]

I would like to know what would happen under the Abbott solution when countries the boats are towed back to refuse to take them

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by lionking

I would like to know what would happen under the Abbott solution when countries the boats are towed back to refuse to take them

I guess you mean aside from the damage to our international reputation and cost to the national conscience.

[bit_pattern]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

I guess you mean aside from the damage to our international reputation and cost to the national conscience.

Not to mention the damage it will do to our bilateral relationship with Indonesia.

[Noztradamus]

Originally Posted by lionking

I would like to know what would happen under the Abbott solution when countries the boats are towed back to refuse to take them

Only one way to find out

[Hallo Alfie]

I wonder what the Indonesians think of us now? Stupid? Soft? Self absorbed? Easy targets? Inconsistent? Hypocritical?

They are laughing and laughung hard - here is little or no respect from them, that's for sure.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

I wonder what the Indonesians think of us now? Stupid? Soft? Self absorbed? Easy targets? Inconsistent? Hypocritical?

They are laughing and laughung hard - here is little or no respect from them, that's for sure.

What motivation do they have for feeling that way?

[lionking]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

I wonder what the Indonesians think of us now? Stupid? Soft? Self absorbed? Easy targets? Inconsistent? Hypocritical?

They are laughing and laughung hard - here is little or no respect from them, that's for sure.

Evasion noted.

[Hallo Alfie]

Was that original question directed at me? How would one know?

I have no idea why, have I somewhere said I support the idea of sending boats back to Indonesia?

[Tricky]

Off-topic posts moved to AAH. Let's not do this again, right?

Posted By:Tricky

[Hallo Alfie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8sar...layer_embedded

This is fun - boat policy.

[Hallo Alfie]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-1...rrives/4137828

Another boast: six in three (two?) days. We had six in two years under the Pacific Solution.

There will be more deaths, this must stop.

[Hallo Alfie]

Experts agree with me it seems.

'Hundreds will drown' unless smugglers are stopped

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-1...topped/4139104

Dr Sev Ozdowski: former Human Rights Commissioner.

A former human rights commissioner has warned that hundreds - if not thousands - of asylum seekers will almost certainly drown on their way to Australia unless something is done to stop people-smuggling boats.

In a submission to the Federal Government's expert panel on asylum seekers, Dr Sev Ozdowski says Labor's decision to wind back the Howard government's so-called Pacific solution and temporary protection visas created an undeniable pull factor for people trying to flee Sri Lanka, Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Wildy]

Except that he doesn't want to go back to the Pacific Solution as you want to.

[Hallo Alfie]

I saw that, obviously.

We have three options on the table as it stands, of those three my preferred option is Nauru as you correctly point out. That does not mean I am not open to other ideas.

The point here is that hundreds of people will die (he says potentially thousands) and the worst PM ever makes another committee - useless!. How about leading and trying something? Anything would be better that what we have and it is only her stubborn pride and the infantile ideas of the moronic greens that has caused up to 800 deaths so far and hundreds more to come.

[Wildy]

Because there is absolutely no blame to be had on the part of the Liberals? I don't think you've noticed but despite Abbott always yelling "stop the boats" when it comes to actually doing something that would stop them he then decides to back away.

[Hallo Alfie]

Originally Posted by Wildy

Because there is absolutely no blame to be had on the part of the Liberals? I don't think you've noticed but despite Abbott always yelling "stop the boats" when it comes to actually doing something that would stop them he then decides to back away.

I have explained my thoughts around this before. I would not have been unhappy if they had tried Malaysia so yes, the Libs can wear some of the blame. But I undersatdand far better their position than the others: They would argue that they had a policy that worked, their policies have not been directly responsible for the deaths of some 800 people where Labor's and the Greens' have.

The greens have a policy that causes deaths yet you are silent on them yourself.

[lionking]

Interesting, from the President of the Australian Human Rights Commission:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/pol...719-22d5d.html

Quote:

Meanwhile, in an interview with The Age to mark her departure from the commission this month, Ms Branson also challenged Coalition proposals to turn back asylum seeker boats.
''The evidence I have seen suggests that turning back boats is not a viable option and it is probably not acceptable to Indonesians.''