Merged: Another Report / Tens of thousands of children abused by Netherlands church

[Gawdzilla]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12...ch-commission/

By Sara Webb and Gilbert Kreijger

AMSTERDAM — Tens of thousands of children have been victims of sexual abuse by the Roman Catholic Church in the Netherlands since 1945, an independent commission said on Friday, criticizing what it called the church’s cover-up and culture of silence.

Church leaders said the findings filled them with shame and sorrow and offered a “heartfelt apology,” saying not only the perpetrators were to blame, but church authorities too.

The commission estimated that 10,000 to 20,000 minors were sexually abused in Catholic orphanages, boarding schools and seminaries between 1945 and 1981, with offences ranging from very mild to serious, including rape.

[Mudcat]

That is just inexcusable.

[Darat]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16216174

Another report concludes systematic child abuse and cover-up by the RCC. Every time a stone is lifted it is the same story, systematic abuse, systemic organised cover-ups.

I know the RCC has been damaged by their actions being exposed but if there is anything miraculous in this world it is the fact that all these exposures have not destroyed the organisation. Can you imagine any other organisation surviving the revelation of child abuse and cover-ups of this scale, it literally goes to the very top, there is not one part of the church that has not been implicated in this.

Sadly I fear it will all again be kicked under the table and the only long term result of all this will be the RCC learning to be even better at covering-up abuse.

(Quick very egocentric question: does anyone know if the Dutch will have this report translated into English?)

[Darat]

Another thing that really does upset me is that we such fantastic and well co-ordinated international action against paedophile rings (such as this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16219226) yet we've never seen anything like this by any country regarding the acknowledged - often by government sponsored reports - abusers in the RCC.

[Shrike]

Yeah, I'm internally debating to deregister myself now or wait till my mother's dead. It'd break her heart. Best would be to get ex-communicated, but that's hard.
Maybe this is the thing my father's family refused to talk about. He was meant to be a missionary/priest in the forties, but got kicked out. Neither he, nor his family would talk about it, and when they did the stories where conflicted.
Off course, I like to think he put up too much of a fight with the priests

[Shrike]

Darat, there's another thread on this http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=226158

[Shrike]

I actually know (for a certain value of 'know') the Baer mentioned in the article. My parents are RCC, and we had some dealings with him. He was not popular in the more liberal part of the RCC my parents where part of.

True story I just thought of. When our pastor (nice guy, I just met him last week) asked me some 20 years ago why I stopped attending church, I jokend that I didn't trust guys in dresses. Do I win the million dollar now?

[Gawdzilla]

20,000 kids. There have to be some parents who knew about this and kept silent. Do we need any more evidence that the system itself is rotten?

[Robrob]

Quote:

between 1945 and 1981

I wonder why it "ended" in 1981?

[Roadtoad]

Originally Posted by Robrob

I wonder why it "ended" in 1981?

The cynic in me asks, "What's the statute of limitations in the Netherlands?"

So, this would be the time to ask: "What do you call 2,000 pedophile priests chained to a sinking barge in the middle of the ocean?"

A good start.

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by Robrob

I wonder why it "ended" in 1981?

I wonder why it "began" in 1945?

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by Craig B

I wonder why it "began" in 1945?

Probably because WWII ended in Europe then. Record keeping was a little dicey during the war, unless you went to camp.

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by Shrike

Yeah, I'm internally debating to deregister myself now or wait till my mother's dead. It'd break her heart.

I am utterly astonished how anyone can chose to stay a member of this organization. The systematically - through the hierarchies and on an international level - abuses and rapes children, then protects and covers the rapists and then replaces them geographically so they can continue raping and abusing children.

Staying a member of such an organization is unethical and immoral.

Quote:

Best would be to get ex-communicated, but that's hard.

Why would that be best? And, no, it is not hard at all. You could steal one of their crackers, or drop it on the ground and stomp on it.

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Why would that be best? And, no, it is not hard at all. You could steal one of their crackers, or drop it on the ground and stomp on it.

Or get caught having sex under the altar. During mass.


Theoretically, anyway.

[Aepervius]

Excuse me, I am trying to get that thru my head.

Hundreds of kids abused over 40 years.
thousands of kids abused over 40 years.

10 thousands of kids abused over 40 years. 250-500 Per years. 1 Kids every day of the week except Saturday or Sunday (nearly) upward to 1 per day and 2 on sunday and saturday.

17 million people in Netehrland. Nearly 1 person out of 1 thousand abused by priests.

I can't wrap my mind around that.

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

The cynic in me asks, "What's the statute of limitations in the Netherlands?"

So, this would be the time to ask: "What do you call 2,000 pedophile priests chained to a sinking barge in the middle of the ocean?"

A good start.

Well suggested (and seconded) - but given it is salt water, a nice flaying of them first would be better.

[Gawdzilla]

Math help, please. If the amount of molestation in the Netherlands is typical, how many children have been buggered by Roman Catholic Priests world-wide in the time used by the report?

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Math help, please. If the amount of molestation in the Netherlands is typical, how many children have been buggered by Roman Catholic Priests world-wide in the time used by the report?

The article mentions a wide spectrum of abuse - that makes it fairly vague, but rather possible to reach those numbers. (Also, I'd not be surprised if victims are counted double for multiple offenses.)

[Denver]

Help me interpret this statement from an MSNBC article on the report:

Quote:

The commission said child sexual abuse was no more prevalent in Catholic institutions than in ones run by other groups but was twice as high as the national average of 10 percent.

"Sexual abuse of minors is widespread in Dutch society," said its report, based on statements of victims who came forward as well as a survey of 34,234 Dutch nationals aged 40 and above.

I am trying to parse "no more prevalent" along side "twice as high". Is it comparing abuse inside institutions, to abuse outside institutions?

[Ausmerican]

Idle speculation that is only tangetially on topic, but I have been wondering for a while now why the largely Catholic areas in South America have not had this problem. Or rather not been reported to have it.
Are their priests better than the rest of the world?
Are they better at turning a blind eye/ covering it up?
Are we going to see one day soon a trickle of reports that turns into a flood from that area?

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by Ausmerican

Are they better at turning a blind eye/ covering it up?

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Probably because WWII ended in Europe then. Record keeping was a little dicey during the war, unless you went to camp.

I'm sure the Roman Catholic Church in the Netherlands maintained decent records throughout the war. See for example http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=1671 . The country was occupied, but it continued to function as an organised society.

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by Craig B

I'm sure the Roman Catholic Church in the Netherlands maintained decent records throughout the war. See for example http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=1671 . The country was occupied, but it continued to function as an organised society.

Okay then, maybe it was just a convenient landmark. The priests before then would be in their late 80s or 90s now, minimum.

[MG1962]

Originally Posted by Denver

Help me interpret this statement from an MSNBC article on the report:



I am trying to parse "no more prevalent" along side "twice as high". Is it comparing abuse inside institutions, to abuse outside institutions?

As I read it - The RCC is twice as high as the national average among Dutch society. Other institutions have a higher than normal rates, but less than the RCC

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Darat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16216174

Another report concludes systematic child abuse and cover-up by the RCC. Every time a stone is lifted it is the same story, systematic abuse, systemic organised cover-ups.

I know the RCC has been damaged by their actions being exposed but if there is anything miraculous in this world it is the fact that all these exposures have not destroyed the organisation. Can you imagine any other organisation surviving the revelation of child abuse and cover-ups of this scale, it literally goes to the very top, there is not one part of the church that has not been implicated in this.

Sadly I fear it will all again be kicked under the table and the only long term result of all this will be the RCC learning to be even better at covering-up abuse.

(Quick very egocentric question: does anyone know if the Dutch will have this report translated into English?)

All it takes is a ruling from the Pope(chief pedophile) that pedophilia is not a sin and it all goes away.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Shrike

Yeah, I'm internally debating to deregister myself now or wait till my mother's dead. It'd break her heart. Best would be to get ex-communicated, but that's hard.
Maybe this is the thing my father's family refused to talk about. He was meant to be a missionary/priest in the forties, but got kicked out. Neither he, nor his family would talk about it, and when they did the stories where conflicted.
Off course, I like to think he put up too much of a fight with the priests

Pedophilia doesn't beak her heart? A million young voices are crying and that doesn't break her heart? Sometimes truth requires the breaking of hearts.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by MG1962

As I read it - The RCC is twice as high as the national average among Dutch society. Other institutions have a higher than normal rates, but less than the RCC

I think I needed another paragraph to understand it:

Quote:

Until the 1960s, the Netherlands was segregated along religious fault lines with separate schools, universities, unions, broadcasters, sports clubs and political parties for Catholics and Protestants, and remnants of segregation remain.

The commission said child sexual abuse was no more prevalent in Catholic institutions than in ones run by other groups but was twice as high as the national average of 10 percent.

"Sexual abuse of minors is widespread in Dutch society," said its report, based on statements of victims who came forward as well as a survey of 34,234 Dutch nationals aged 40 and above.

So I think it means that institutions (schools, universities, unions, broadcasters, sports clubs and political parties) run by RCC had child sexual abuse cases that were the same number as the same institutions run by Protestants, or perhaps also non-religious groups. But, that if you examine all cases throughout all areas of society, these institutions are twice as high as society as a whole.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Or get caught having sex under the altar. During mass.


Theoretically, anyway.

Unless you're a priest, then we just reassign you.

[caniswalensis]

Staggering.

I can't understand why there would be any Catholics left in the Netherlands after this gets out. Whatever my beliefs & faith were, if I was a member of a church that took part in this sort of massive systemic abuse, I would attend one last time and stand up in the middle of services and renounce the church and explain why publically.

I though this was mostly a problem with the Catholic church culture here in America. It is beginning to look like it might be endemic all over the world.

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by caniswalensis

Staggering.

I can't understand why there would be any Catholics left in the Netherlands after this gets out. Whatever my beliefs & faith were, if I was a member of a church that took part in this sort of massive systemic abuse, I would attend one last time and stand up in the middle of services and renounce the church and explain why publically.

I though this was mostly a problem with the Catholic church culture here in America. It is beginning to look like it might be endemic all over the world.

Re: your last para - you have missed a lot -even in threads here. Cases in large blocks over Europe and Ireland very largely, especially if you add in (potentially non-sexual) sadistic practices fully institutionalized by the church (RCC). See Roadtoad for a great idea for the perp slime.

[ddt]

Originally Posted by Darat

(Quick very egocentric question: does anyone know if the Dutch will have this report translated into English?)

There's an English summary (23 pages) available on the website of the Commission Deetman. There's also an electronic Dutch summary (26 pages). The full report is only available in print.

Originally Posted by Robrob

I wonder why it "ended" in 1981?

It actually didn't, they covered all the way up to May 2010 when the Commission was instituted.

[caniswalensis]

Originally Posted by fuelair

Re: your last para - you have missed a lot -even in threads here. Cases in large blocks over Europe and Ireland very largely, especially if you add in (potentially non-sexual) sadistic practices fully institutionalized by the church (RCC).

Thanks! I admit I do not enjoy reading about such stuff and usually avoid it if possible. Now that you mention Ireland, I do seem to remember some sort of scandal about young women in catholic workhouses there. Does that sound right?

Originally Posted by fuelair

See Roadtoad for a great idea for the perp slime.

I have no idea what you are saying here. LOL

[ddt]

Originally Posted by Denver

So I think it means that institutions (schools, universities, unions, broadcasters, sports clubs and political parties) run by RCC had child sexual abuse cases that were the same number as the same institutions run by Protestants, or perhaps also non-religious groups. But, that if you examine all cases throughout all areas of society, these institutions are twice as high as society as a whole.

Indeed. From the summary of the report, p. 8-9:

Quote:

According to the survey, one in ten Dutch persons have been subjected against their will to sexual advances from an adult who is not a member of their family before they were 18 (9.7% of the sample of 34,234 Dutch nationals aged 40 years and older). The perpetrator’s background was not further specified. The number of Dutch people in the survey that were raised as Roman Catholic is slightly higher than those who were not raised as Roman Catholic.
[...]
The Commission of Inquiry investigated how great the risk of unwanted sexual contact with children was in institutions (boarding schools, private schools, seminaries, children’s homes). It emerged that the risk was twice as high as the national average, but with no significant difference between Roman Catholic and non-Roman Catholic institutions.

And the institutions meant are those where children actually live. In 1960, there were 321 RC boarding schools, nowadays none to speak of. I'm not aware there has been such an extensive number of protestant or of secular boarding schools, BTW.

Then there are also the institutions for various kinds of handicapped children. The summary doesn't dwell on that, but I can only imagine that abuse has been even higher there.

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by caniswalensis

Staggering.

I can't understand why there would be any Catholics left in the Netherlands after this gets out. Whatever my beliefs & faith were, if I was a member of a church that took part in this sort of massive systemic abuse, I would attend one last time and stand up in the middle of services and renounce the church and explain why publically.

I though this was mostly a problem with the Catholic church culture here in America. It is beginning to look like it might be endemic all over the world.

Why would there be any Catholics left ANYWHERE?

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by caniswalensis

Thanks! I admit I do not enjoy reading about such stuff and usually avoid it if possible. Now that you mention Ireland, I do seem to remember some sort of scandal about young women in catholic workhouses there. Does that sound right?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mag...&client=safari

[geni]

Originally Posted by Robrob

I wonder why it "ended" in 1981?

That pretty much coincides with when child abuse when from being just another crime to something that western societies decided they really needed to do something about.

For example the date pretty much matches when governments started to clean-up children's homes and the various gay rights organisations broke away from the paedophile groups.

[geni]

Originally Posted by caniswalensis

I though this was mostly a problem with the Catholic church culture here in America. It is beginning to look like it might be endemic all over the world.

It is. Although if you think it is limited to any given church or even religious groups in general you are going to be rather disappointed. The good news I suppose is that things are probably getting better with groups across the board putting more safeguards in place.

[Eddie Dane]

Same levels of abuse as in non RCC institutions for minors.

I see DDT beat me to it, but it is worth repeating.

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Why would there be any Catholics left ANYWHERE?

Because, obviously, to too many people their precious little delusions are more important than the well-being of thousands and thousands of children.

[ddt]

Originally Posted by Robrob

I wonder why it "ended" in 1981?

Originally Posted by geni

That pretty much coincides with when child abuse when from being just another crime to something that western societies decided they really needed to do something about.

For example the date pretty much matches when governments started to clean-up children's homes and the various gay rights organisations broke away from the paedophile groups.

It has more to do with the breakdown of the extensive system of RC boarding schools and other institutions where children lived full-time. It seems the bulk of the abuse researched by the commission occurred within those institutions and not so much with, e.g., altar boys. The two most egregious examples are the boarding school of the Salesians of Don Bosch in 's-Heerenberg - the ball started rolling in 2010 with one victim from this place - and the boarding school Eikenburg in Eindhoven of the Brothers of Charity, where a true terror regime was instituted with also non-sexual violence.

It also has to do with the general decline in the number of clergy, both priests and members of congregations: since the 1960s, the number of new members is far less than the number of retirements, and in fact, since decades, priests immigrate from abroad because the Dutch RCC doesn't have enough new priests to cover all parishes.

However, the summary of the report doesn't give a breakdown how much abuse occurred where.

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

The cynic in me asks, "What's the statute of limitations in the Netherlands?"

Nowadays: 20 years for the most severe cases. Raping a minor has a maximum sentence of 12 years in general, and 18 years if committed by a parent, guardian, caregiver etc. The statute of limitations is 20 years for crimes with a maximum sentence of 10 years or more (and no statute of limitations if the maximum sentence is lifelong incarceration).

However, for a crime committed in 1981, the statute of limitations in 1981 applies, and that may have well been different (read: shorter): the maximum sentence may have been different as well as the statute of limitations that applies.

As the linked articles note, the commission has forwarded all cases which they thought might still be prosecuted to the DA. However, the DA has dismissed most of those cases as they thought the statute of limitations had already run out.

The Dutch RCC has long maintained the attitude "those things haven't happened over here". The current debate has been started by two journalists who came upon the testimony of one victim, begin 2010, and began to dig deeper into the abuse problem within the Dutch RCC. The current report is based on around 2,000 testimonies of victims, with around 800 identified perpetrators, of which 105 are still alive. The estimates of sexual child abuse are based on a large-scale inquiry among 35,000 people in the general population.

An oft-repeated video snippet these days has been former archbishop of Utrecht and cardinal Simons in a political talk show, spring 2010, where he said: "wir haben es nicht gewusst" - in German. He probably didn't mean it that way, but it summarizes nicely the hypocrisy prevalent in the RCC. (link of the talk show, statement at 4:20).

After all, "wir haben es nicht gewusst" doesn't literally mean "we didn't know". It means: "I saw the Gestapo carry off my Jewish neighbor, one day my Jewish co-workers were gone, but I didn't think about their fate because, deep in my heart, I knew it could be the worst". (apologies to the German forum members; but I didn't bring in the Holocaust to this debate).

And that's exactly what the RCC leaders did. They looked away. They belittled the problem. They treated them as individual cases. They covered them up. And they transferred the perpetrators to other positions, without informing the new superiors, so the perps could continue with their behaviour.

And they lie about it. Simonis admitted in the same interview he had seen maybe 10 cases on his desk as bishop of Rotterdam and later archbishop of Utrecht, and had "carefully handled" those cases. However, he didn't file a police report. And the report now makes clear that he didn't handle them carefully, but engaged in the same cover-up activities as everyone else.

Friday night, the current archbishop, Van Eijk, was interviewed in another TV show, along with victims. When the interviewer asked him: "There have been reports since the 1980s. Didn't you think it happened in your diocese?", he only answered that the RCC is not a monolithic body; and sidestepped that he could read in the media about abuse elsewhere.

The fact that church leaders hide behind the structure of the church is another aspect of this hypocrisy: they handily abused that fact by transferring a priest or member of a congregation to another diocese or congregation without telling about the reason of transfer. Both Simonis and Van Eijk seem to go so far in their statements that the abuse in other dioceses were not known to them, as if the bishops don't have to report to the archbishop.

In fact, the topic of sexual child abuse has appeared on the agenda of the Dutch Bishops Conference until the begin 1950s and then has disappeared. Another case in point of covering up and not sharing that information with other church leaders.

In 1995, the Dutch RCC has instituted an agency "Hulp en Recht" ("Aid and Justice") to address, a.o., such cases, but the general consensus among the victims is that they have done far too little and, in fact, have been a part of the cover-up, and that they don't trust the RCC now in their offer of help from this agency.

Several of the perpetrators identified by the victims have denied having abused children.

A separate commission, headed by tort law professor Lindenbergh, instituted by the RCC has proposed a compensation scheme for victims. This scheme maxes out at €100,000 for exceptional cases, however, "only" multiple rape maxes out at €25,000. It is expected that about half of the currently filed complaints will be awarded compensation under this scheme, costing the RCC only about €5 million. Lindenbergh claims these amounts are in line with general Dutch tort practice. Of course, victims can also go the route of the civil court and some have already done so.

Another commission has been instituted by the Dutch government to assess the role of the police and the DA in clerical sexual abuse cases. They could find only 3 cases among several thousand in the period since 1980, so they have refrained from making conclusions based on that. There is, however, also a story that the DA's office in Den Bosch, in the predominantly RC southern part of the country, had a special box filled with such reports from the 1950s and 1960s, which were shredded in 1997 because the statute of limitations had run out.

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

So, this would be the time to ask: "What do you call 2,000 pedophile priests chained to a sinking barge in the middle of the ocean?"

A good start.

Much too lenient. Make the rest of their lives a living hell. Name them. Of course, the commission has not publicly named the perpetrators, but it's free for others to do so. Spray paint their houses with "child rapist". Ask them at the supermarket which child they're going to try to bugger today. Until they end their misery by hanging themselves - thus forfeiting the right to be buried in consecrated grounds.

In all seriousness, the way the RCC still handles this is filled with hypocrisy and their apologies are mealy-mouthed. The RCC should be tried as a criminal organisation for aiding and abetting these crimes, and the bishops and abbots should receive jailtime for it. If any of the perpetrators or RCC leaders had any moral fiber, they'd beg the DA to be tried anyway, and beg DA and judges to disregard the statute of limitations, so they still can receive their well-deserved sentences. None have done so. That's my humble opinion.