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Jack by the hedge · 19th December 2011, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

I allow gays their rights because I think natural selection will make gays extinct eventually.

If you're unaware of how condescending that sounds, you might want to have a bit of a think about it.

Natural selection has spent a long time making the human race the way it is now. What makes you think it will cause the proportion of gay humans to dwindle to nothing if this has not yet occurred? Is there some pertinent new selection pressure you believe is acting on the human race?

dafydd · 19th December 2011, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

If you're unaware of how condescending that sounds, you might want to have a bit of a think about it.

Natural selection has spent a long time making the human race the way it is now. What makes you think it will cause the proportion of gay humans to dwindle to nothing if this has not yet occurred? Is there some pertinent new selection pressure you believe is acting on the human race?

He probably thinks that scientology will take over the world and then shoot all the gays.

Complexity · 19th December 2011, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

Wikipedia makes a distiction, which I can't see, beteen atheists and the nonreligious. I'm not sure what that means. The implication is that atheists are spiritual but don't believe in a deity whereas people that are nonreligious don't believe in religion. It seems like atheism should be the larger set/group of which nonreligion is a subset.

Atheists are a group just as conservatives are a group. Atheists get lumped into the same bin with all other atheists. So, whether you think it's a creed or not, people still categorize you by your belief.

Atheism is the lack of a belief in gods.

The article suggested that there are some people who are religious who do not believe in gods. This is true.

Your conclusion that atheists are spiritual but don't believe in a deity is wrong.

Some atheists are spiritual, others are not - none of us believes in gods.

I am an atheist - I do not believe in gods.

I am not spiritual in the least.

I am opposed to religious belief and do what I can to help wipe it out.

Jack by the hedge · 19th December 2011, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

What is the point of all this? Justinian is being deliberately stroppy. He knows very well that atheism is not a creed.

Yes, he knows. It's just one of his Jedi mind tricks.

dafydd · 19th December 2011, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Yes, he knows. It's just one of his Jedi mind tricks.

Pathetic, isn't it?

Complexity · 19th December 2011, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

What is the point of all this? Justinian is being deliberately stroppy. He knows very well that atheism is not a creed.

This isn't for the benefit of Justinian2 - I gave up on him... from the beginning.

Others will find these threads, however, and any time invested is for them.

Also, I'm sitting in a hospital room with far too much time on my hands (nasty foot infection) - it is either this or going back to read the global warming thread (which I'm reading from the beginning). I miss my cats.

Dave Rogers · 19th December 2011, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

Wikipedia makes a distiction, which I can't see, beteen atheists and the nonreligious. I'm not sure what that means. The implication is that atheists are spiritual but don't believe in a deity whereas people that are nonreligious don't believe in religion. It seems like atheism should be the larger set/group of which nonreligion is a subset.

Much of that article is nothing more than the opinions of its writer.

Originally Posted by Justinian2

Atheists are a group just as conservatives are a group.

Incorrect, and obviously so. Conservatives, as a group, have a set of shared values. Atheists are not a group just as "People who aren't convservatives" are not a group.

Originally Posted by Justinian2

Atheists get lumped into the same bin with all other atheists. So, whether you think it's a creed or not, people still categorize you by your belief.

Are you trying to find out what an atheist is? It seems to me that you're more interested in telling atheists what other people believe them to be. Why, exactly, should I care about other people's obviously wrong opinions?

And it's worth pointing out that I live in a country where atheists are probably just about in the majority. And yet, there are no organisations or institutions devoted to promoting atheism or the interests of atheists as a group. This is because these things do not exist. Atheists in the UK don't generally get seen as a group, because there are so many of us that it's immediately obvious that we logically divide into groups in ways that don't relate in any way to our atheism.

Dave

dafydd · 19th December 2011, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Complexity

This isn't for the benefit of Justinian2 - I gave up on him... from the beginning.

Others will find these threads, however, and any time invested is for them.

Also, I'm sitting in a hospital room with far too much time on my hands (nasty foot infection) - it is either this or going back to read the global warming thread (which I'm reading from the beginning). I miss my cats.

Sorry to hear that. You're right, this thread exposes scientology for the evil nonsense that it is.

Justinian2 · 19th December 2011, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

And what OT level is he [David MisCaviage]?

David MisCaviage wasn't even half way to clear (below OT) when papers were supposedly signed by LRH (after he had a stroke) that gave David the power to become the leader of Scientology, David was just a lowly courier between LRH and the church at the time.

Quote:

What evidence is there that they knowingly aided him [the Green River killer]?

I always see something suspicious in the actions of the nefarious before they become infamous. The trouble is that most of the time the suspicions aren't sufficient for legal action. If you keep your ears open, the suspicions accumulate until, if you don't act you are essentially aiding and abetting.

Jack by the hedge · 19th December 2011, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

Wikipedia makes a distiction, which I can't see, beteen atheists and the nonreligious. I'm not sure what that means.

It means the set of people who do not believe gods exist is not the same as the set of people who are not religious. There are lots of highly religious Buddhists who do not believe in any gods.

Quote:

Atheists are a group just as conservatives are a group. Atheists get lumped into the same bin with all other atheists. So, whether you think it's a creed or not, people still categorize you by your belief.

Atheists are probably better described as a category than a group. And categorized by their lack of belief, not their belief. By calling them a group you wrongly imply some cohesion or common purpose. They are merely the set of people who are not members of the set of people who believe in any of the various gods.

DrDave · 19th December 2011, 08:15 AM

Atheism means I am angry at god. Specifically, the Christian god.

dafydd · 19th December 2011, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

And it's worth pointing out that I live in a country where atheists are probably just about in the majority. And yet, there are no organisations or institutions devoted to promoting atheism or the interests of atheists as a group. This is because these things do not exist. Atheists in the UK don't generally get seen as a group, because there are so many of us that it's immediately obvious that we logically divide into groups in ways that don't relate in any way to our atheism.

Dave

Same here in Belgium. I don't know anyone who goes to church. I assume that most of my friends and acquaintances are atheists but it's not something that anyone ever mentions. The are all too smart to be scientologists.

Justinian2 · 19th December 2011, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

<snip>
Are you trying to find out what an atheist is? It seems to me that you're more interested in telling atheists what other people believe them to be. Why, exactly, should I care about other people's obviously wrong opinions?

And it's worth pointing out that I live in a country where atheists are probably just about in the majority. And yet, there are no organisations or institutions devoted to promoting atheism or the interests of atheists as a group. This is because these things do not exist. Atheists in the UK don't generally get seen as a group, because there are so many of us that it's immediately obvious that we logically divide into groups in ways that don't relate in any way to our atheism.
Dave

The belief system of many, but not all, atheists is that theism is bad. The belief system of theists is that atheism is bad. If a sufficient number of atheists oppose religion, they (atheists) will probably become the enemy of the religious.

Complexity · 19th December 2011, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Same here in Belgium. I don't know anyone who goes to church. I assume that most of my friends and acquaintances are atheists but it's not something that anyone ever mentions. The are all too smart to be scientologists.

My cats are too smart to be scientologists (and far too nice).

Lamuella · 19th December 2011, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

The belief system of many, but not all, atheists is that theism is bad.

I'm sure that some hold this opinion, but that's not a belief system.

Justinian2 · 19th December 2011, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

It means the set of people who do not believe gods exist is not the same as the set of people who are not religious. There are lots of highly religious Buddhists who do not believe in any gods.

Atheists are probably better described as a category than a group. And categorized by their lack of belief, not their belief. By calling them a group you wrongly imply some cohesion or common purpose. They are merely the set of people who are not members of the set of people who believe in any of the various gods.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.[1][2] Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the difference between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief. In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves there is a God, whereas an atheist disbelieves there is a God.[2]

To me, agnosticism is more valid that atheism. Agnosticism does not make war with the theists as do the nonreligious.

As a Scientologist, I think much like the atheistic Buddhists except that I have a slight belief in spirits of all sizes - except those powerful enough to dictate my life. Scientologists are tolerant of all other religions.

zooterkin · 19th December 2011, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

To me, agnosticism is more valid that atheism. Agnosticism does not make war with the theists as do the nonreligious.

Do we need to start another thread to explain agnosticism to you, as that's clearly another word whose meaning you don't understand. Did you go clear with that, yet?

Ignosticist · 19th December 2011, 08:52 AM

"An atheist would say, 'I don't believe God exists'; an agnostic would say, 'I don't know whether or not God exists'; and an ignostic would say, 'I don't know what you mean when you say, "God exists" '."

Originally Posted by Justinian2

To me, agnosticism is more valid that atheism. Agnosticism does not make war with the theists as do the nonreligious.

Well, then ignosticism is even more valid than agnosticism, ignosticism realizes you guys do not even know what you guys are talking about. The central subject of the discussion, "god" , is, due to the extremely nonsensical way it is used, meaningless.

Originally Posted by Justinian2

As a Scientologist, I think much like the atheistic Buddhists except that I have a slight belief in spirits of all sizes - except those powerful enough to dictate my life. Scientologists are tolerant of all other religions.

See? All nonsense.

You can talk about squares of different sizes... but "spirits"? aren't those supposed by some people to be incorporeal and therefore "sizeless"?

Foster Zygote · 19th December 2011, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

David MisCaviage wasn't even half way to clear (below OT) when papers were supposedly signed by LRH (after he had a stroke) that gave David the power to become the leader of Scientology, David was just a lowly courier between LRH and the church at the time.

So this lowly inferior was able to steal power from people who had much higher OT levels than he did? Again, it sounds like higher OT levels offer no discernible advantage in life.

Quote:

I always see something suspicious in the actions of the nefarious before they become infamous.

So you've known a lot of infamous people then?

Dave Rogers · 19th December 2011, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

The belief system of many, but not all, atheists is that theism is bad.

Wrong. That is a belief, not a belief system. And, unlike religious beliefs, it is - for specific definitions of the word "bad" - in principle a falsifiable claim, and therefore one worth considering.

Originally Posted by Justinian2

The belief system of theists is that atheism is bad.

Again, not a belief system, but a specific belief. This confusion betrays extremely wooly thinking.

Originally Posted by Justinian2

If a sufficient number of atheists oppose religion, they (atheists) will probably become the enemy of the religious.

And if a sufficient number of them decide to paint their houses green, they will probably become major consumers of green paint. Is there any particular reason why you've stated that rather obvious tautology?

Dave

Foster Zygote · 19th December 2011, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

The belief system of many, but not all, atheists is that theism is bad. The belief system of theists is that atheism is bad. If a sufficient number of atheists oppose religion, they (atheists) will probably become the enemy of the religious.

And many, but not all, people who don't collect stamps regard collecting stamps as boring. That doesn't make people who don't collect stamps a "creed".

Not that your response addressed what Dave Rogers wrote.

Justinian2 · 19th December 2011, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Do we need to start another thread to explain agnosticism to you, as that's clearly another word whose meaning you don't understand. Did you go clear with that, yet?

I have no need to logically answer your rabid reply as you apparently have already decided to be hostile regardless of anything I say.

Justinian2 · 19th December 2011, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

So this lowly inferior was able to steal power from people who had much higher OT levels than he did? Again, it sounds like higher OT levels offer no discernible advantage in life.

So you've known a lot of infamous people then?

I've read about the infamous and seen them on documentaries. I have also had some bad tenants with whom I was suspicious before they became a nuisance.

As for this lowly inferior, apparently top lawyers were on his side. Scientologists can't overrule judges, government officials, and the FBI in this society. LRH's wife was in jail at the time because she spied on the FBI (and got caught).

Jack by the hedge · 19th December 2011, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

The belief system of many, but not all, atheists is that theism is bad.

That's so vague as to be meaningless. If you actually meant "most" rather than "many" it would be more meaningful but then I'd probably ask you to justify the claim.

Ignosticist · 19th December 2011, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

That's so vague as to be meaningless.

As pretty much anything in this discussions is...

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

If you actually meant "most" rather than "many" it would be more meaningful but then I'd probably ask you to justify the claim.

Justify the claim?

It will be fun to watch him try....

Justinian2 · 19th December 2011, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

And many, but not all, people who don't collect stamps regard collecting stamps as boring. That doesn't make people who don't collect stamps a "creed".

Not that your response addressed what Dave Rogers wrote.

We all have complex belief systems.

My Scientology belief system starts with Dianetics which believes that we are all susceptible to important hypnotic-like phrases. Furthermore, the actions of many are guided by their own particular hypnotic-like phrases.

Do you collect stamps? Has anyone ever told you "I think stamp collecting is boring" when you were tired?

Sorry about the evaluation. I didn't mean to imply that you had been hypnotically induced into believing that 'stamp collecting is boring'. But that would be the type of implant that you could get if you were tired and heard that phrase. It would create internal conflict if you were an avid stamp collector.

That is an example of one of my sub-beliefs, anyway.

dafydd · 19th December 2011, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

We all have complex belief systems.

My Scientology belief system starts with Dianetics which believes that we are all susceptible to important hypnotic-like phrases. Furthermore, the actions of many are guided by their own particular hypnotic-like phrases.

Do you collect stamps?

Dianetics is made up crap.

Jack by the hedge · 19th December 2011, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

To me, agnosticism is more valid that atheism.

To me, agnosticism is declining to come to a conclusion in the absence of proof. But I'd by lying if I said that, having considered the evidence, I actually thought there was even an infinitessimal chance that God exists.

Quote:

Agnosticism does not make war with the theists as do the nonreligious.

I do not make war with theists despite being nonreligious. I'm prepared to tell people what I believe, though, which is not the same thing at all.

Quote:

As a Scientologist, I think much like the atheistic Buddhists except that I have a slight belief in spirits of all sizes - except those powerful enough to dictate my life. Scientologists are tolerant of all other religions.

I don't believe in spirits at all. Not even slightly. I also tolerate all other religions. I reserve the right not to tolerate whatever people feel allowed or required to do to other people in the name of their religion.

zooterkin · 19th December 2011, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

I have no need to logically answer your rabid reply as you apparently have already decided to be hostile regardless of anything I say.

Probably just as well; I'd save your first attempt for something a bit more important. It also seems 'rabid' is another word you run through your clearing process.

Dancing David · 19th December 2011, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

I allow gays their rights because I think natural selection will make gays extinct eventually.

So you don't know that siblings share 50% genetic material and that rearing of siblings children by homosexuals would be a reproductive benefit and therefore carried on?

Justinian2 · 19th December 2011, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

To me, agnosticism is declining to come to a conclusion in the absence of proof. But I'd by lying if I said that, having considered the evidence, I actually thought there was even an infinitessimal chance that God exists.

Proof follows belief. For example, people had the belief that the world was a sphere before it was proven. It took hundreds of years to prove the world was a sphere. Sailors made a profit from their belief that the world was a sphere long before the fact was proven.

There are many beliefs and theories in religion. An atheist knows that nothing else exists. I am very skeptical of the belief that nothing exists beyond what some worldly people can see with their own eyes.

Quote:

I do not make war with theists despite being nonreligious. I'm prepared to tell people what I believe, though, which is not the same thing at all.

I don't believe in spirits at all. Not even slightly. I also tolerate all other religions. I reserve the right not to tolerate whatever people feel allowed or required to do to other people in the name of their religion.

You have that right. However, people have good reason to be highly skeptical of your belief or absence of belief - whatever you call it.

Dancing David · 19th December 2011, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

The belief system of many, but not all, atheists is that theism is bad.

Data ,evidence, citations? Most religions are somewhat detrimental to neutral, however deism itself is mostly neutral.

Quote:

The belief system of theists is that atheism is bad. If a sufficient number of atheists oppose religion, they (atheists) will probably become the enemy of the religious.

Some theists are so strong in their faith that is a given. I am no threat, I just don't share their beliefs.

Dancing David · 19th December 2011, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Dianetics is made up crap.

Pretty much the statistics (and based upon very small sample sizes) are interesting but mostly unreplicated.

Apparently some people have never heard of cognitive behavioral therapy, which would argue against any secret mind control phrases.

Mister Agenda · 19th December 2011, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

What do atheists do for Christmas?

It depends. I ask people to give to charity instead of to me. Last year I had dinner with friends at a Chinese restaurant. This year I expect to celebrate at my gf's with some of her family.

Originally Posted by Justinian2

What are your mores?

I try to live with honesty, integrity, honor, and compassion.

Originally Posted by Justinian2

What is your profession?

If you mean what I do for a living, I manage a small department in a big corporation. If you were going for the other meaning, I suppose I'm a ratskep humanist.

Originally Posted by Justinian2

What is your charity?

My favorite is Camfed (educate girls in Africa).

Originally Posted by Justinian2

How do you vote?

I vote for the person who I think is the best candidate, or I protest vote Third Party (usually Libertarian) to show my displeasure at the offerings.

Originally Posted by Justinian2

I assume all the answers are different. No implication. Just trying to get a feel for who you are.

Good assumption.

Mister Agenda · 19th December 2011, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

My town had no colored people, no Asian people, few Catholics, and no Jewish people. We were WASP.

My college was pretty much the same.

I doubt that I ever met an atheist in person. I certainly never met an atheist that raged against religion.

I am familiar with Protestants, Masons, Catholics, Jews and Scientologists. Atheists are unknown.

I was 42 before I knowingly met my third atheist. I started a Meetup for atheists, no one but me turned up for the first few meetings, but then two guys showed. One of them was someone I already knew, but didn't know was an atheist.

Most of us don't rage against religion in casual conversation. Critiquing religion is appropriate in discussion forums, not so much with someone not interested in having that conversation.

dafydd · 19th December 2011, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

An atheist knows that nothing else exists.

I know that the universe and everything in it exists, where did you get that stupid idea from?

Foster Zygote · 19th December 2011, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

We all have complex belief systems.

My Scientology belief system starts with Dianetics which believes that we are all susceptible to important hypnotic-like phrases. Furthermore, the actions of many are guided by their own particular hypnotic-like phrases.

Do you collect stamps? Has anyone ever told you "I think stamp collecting is boring" when you were tired?

Sorry about the evaluation. I didn't mean to imply that you had been hypnotically induced into believing that 'stamp collecting is boring'. But that would be the type of implant that you could get if you were tired and heard that phrase. It would create internal conflict if you were an avid stamp collector.

That is an example of one of my sub-beliefs, anyway.

Did you not understand the analogy at all?

Mister Agenda · 19th December 2011, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

By your own words, you're a Nitpicking dilettante

This thread is about Atheists. Do Atheists have tolerance for other creeds? Do Atheists want tolerance for their own creed?

Neither atheism nor theism are creeds. Everyone wants tolerance for their own creeds, whatever they may be.

Foster Zygote · 19th December 2011, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

An atheist knows that nothing else exists.

That is preposterous assertion. Have you been reading anything that anyone has said to you regarding atheism?

Mister Agenda · 19th December 2011, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Justinian2

From Wikipedia:

Wikipedia makes a distiction, which I can't see, beteen atheists and the nonreligious. I'm not sure what that means. The implication is that atheists are spiritual but don't believe in a deity whereas people that are nonreligious don't believe in religion. It seems like atheism should be the larger set/group of which nonreligion is a subset.

Some atheists are 'spiritual' for different values of spiritual. Some atheists are religious, presumably following a religion that doesn't require theism. Atheism is a category that includes everyone who doesn't believe in deities, the category of 'not theists'.

Originally Posted by Justinian2

Atheists are a group just as conservatives are a group. Atheists get lumped into the same bin with all other atheists. So, whether you think it's a creed or not, people still categorize you by your belief.

The only group that can be meaningfully compared to atheists is theists. We're not a group in the sense that we share common attitudes, preferences, and values. We are only the group of all people who don't believe in any gods.

19th December 2011, 08:05 AM	#122
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge If you're unaware of how condescending that sounds, you might want to have a bit of a think about it. Natural selection has spent a long time making the human race the way it is now. What makes you think it will cause the proportion of gay humans to dwindle to nothing if this has not yet occurred? Is there some pertinent new selection pressure you believe is acting on the human race? He probably thinks that scientology will take over the world and then shoot all the gays.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th December 2011, 08:05 AM	#123
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by Justinian2 Wikipedia makes a distiction, which I can't see, beteen atheists and the nonreligious. I'm not sure what that means. The implication is that atheists are spiritual but don't believe in a deity whereas people that are nonreligious don't believe in religion. It seems like atheism should be the larger set/group of which nonreligion is a subset. Atheists are a group just as conservatives are a group. Atheists get lumped into the same bin with all other atheists. So, whether you think it's a creed or not, people still categorize you by your belief. Atheism is the lack of a belief in gods. The article suggested that there are some people who are religious who do not believe in gods. This is true. Your conclusion that atheists are spiritual but don't believe in a deity is wrong. Some atheists are spiritual, others are not - none of us believes in gods. I am an atheist - I do not believe in gods. I am not spiritual in the least. I am opposed to religious belief and do what I can to help wipe it out.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

19th December 2011, 08:08 AM	#125
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge Yes, he knows. It's just one of his Jedi mind tricks. Pathetic, isn't it?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th December 2011, 08:10 AM	#126
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by dafydd What is the point of all this? Justinian is being deliberately stroppy. He knows very well that atheism is not a creed. This isn't for the benefit of Justinian2 - I gave up on him... from the beginning. Others will find these threads, however, and any time invested is for them. Also, I'm sitting in a hospital room with far too much time on my hands (nasty foot infection) - it is either this or going back to read the global warming thread (which I'm reading from the beginning). I miss my cats.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

19th December 2011, 08:12 AM	#127
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In a world lit only by fire. Posts: 17,907	Originally Posted by Justinian2 Wikipedia makes a distiction, which I can't see, beteen atheists and the nonreligious. I'm not sure what that means. The implication is that atheists are spiritual but don't believe in a deity whereas people that are nonreligious don't believe in religion. It seems like atheism should be the larger set/group of which nonreligion is a subset. Much of that article is nothing more than the opinions of its writer. Originally Posted by Justinian2 Atheists are a group just as conservatives are a group. Incorrect, and obviously so. Conservatives, as a group, have a set of shared values. Atheists are not a group just as "People who aren't convservatives" are not a group. Originally Posted by Justinian2 Atheists get lumped into the same bin with all other atheists. So, whether you think it's a creed or not, people still categorize you by your belief. Are you trying to find out what an atheist is? It seems to me that you're more interested in telling atheists what other people believe them to be. Why, exactly, should I care about other people's obviously wrong opinions? And it's worth pointing out that I live in a country where atheists are probably just about in the majority. And yet, there are no organisations or institutions devoted to promoting atheism or the interests of atheists as a group. This is because these things do not exist. Atheists in the UK don't generally get seen as a group, because there are so many of us that it's immediately obvious that we logically divide into groups in ways that don't relate in any way to our atheism. Dave
	__________________ "We will punish the murderer together. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy." - Fabian Stang, Mayor of Oslo SSKCAS, covert member

19th December 2011, 08:03 AM	#121
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,514	Originally Posted by Justinian2 I allow gays their rights because I think natural selection will make gays extinct eventually. If you're unaware of how condescending that sounds, you might want to have a bit of a think about it. Natural selection has spent a long time making the human race the way it is now. What makes you think it will cause the proportion of gay humans to dwindle to nothing if this has not yet occurred? Is there some pertinent new selection pressure you believe is acting on the human race?

19th December 2011, 08:05 AM	#124
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,514	Originally Posted by dafydd What is the point of all this? Justinian is being deliberately stroppy. He knows very well that atheism is not a creed. Yes, he knows. It's just one of his Jedi mind tricks.

19th December 2011, 08:12 AM	#128
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Complexity This isn't for the benefit of Justinian2 - I gave up on him... from the beginning. Others will find these threads, however, and any time invested is for them. Also, I'm sitting in a hospital room with far too much time on my hands (nasty foot infection) - it is either this or going back to read the global warming thread (which I'm reading from the beginning). I miss my cats. Sorry to hear that. You're right, this thread exposes scientology for the evil nonsense that it is.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th December 2011, 08:12 AM	#129
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote And what OT level is he [David MisCaviage]? David MisCaviage wasn't even half way to clear (below OT) when papers were supposedly signed by LRH (after he had a stroke) that gave David the power to become the leader of Scientology, David was just a lowly courier between LRH and the church at the time. Quote: What evidence is there that they knowingly aided him [the Green River killer]? I always see something suspicious in the actions of the nefarious before they become infamous. The trouble is that most of the time the suspicions aren't sufficient for legal action. If you keep your ears open, the suspicions accumulate until, if you don't act you are essentially aiding and abetting.
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804

19th December 2011, 08:13 AM	#130
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,514	Originally Posted by Justinian2 Wikipedia makes a distiction, which I can't see, beteen atheists and the nonreligious. I'm not sure what that means. It means the set of people who do not believe gods exist is not the same as the set of people who are not religious. There are lots of highly religious Buddhists who do not believe in any gods. Quote: Atheists are a group just as conservatives are a group. Atheists get lumped into the same bin with all other atheists. So, whether you think it's a creed or not, people still categorize you by your belief. Atheists are probably better described as a category than a group. And categorized by their lack of belief, not their belief. By calling them a group you wrongly imply some cohesion or common purpose. They are merely the set of people who are not members of the set of people who believe in any of the various gods.

19th December 2011, 08:15 AM	#131
DrDave Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 3,140	Atheism means I am angry at god. Specifically, the Christian god.

19th December 2011, 08:16 AM	#132
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers And it's worth pointing out that I live in a country where atheists are probably just about in the majority. And yet, there are no organisations or institutions devoted to promoting atheism or the interests of atheists as a group. This is because these things do not exist. Atheists in the UK don't generally get seen as a group, because there are so many of us that it's immediately obvious that we logically divide into groups in ways that don't relate in any way to our atheism. Dave Same here in Belgium. I don't know anyone who goes to church. I assume that most of my friends and acquaintances are atheists but it's not something that anyone ever mentions. The are all too smart to be scientologists.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th December 2011, 08:23 AM	#133
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers <snip> Are you trying to find out what an atheist is? It seems to me that you're more interested in telling atheists what other people believe them to be. Why, exactly, should I care about other people's obviously wrong opinions? And it's worth pointing out that I live in a country where atheists are probably just about in the majority. And yet, there are no organisations or institutions devoted to promoting atheism or the interests of atheists as a group. This is because these things do not exist. Atheists in the UK don't generally get seen as a group, because there are so many of us that it's immediately obvious that we logically divide into groups in ways that don't relate in any way to our atheism. Dave The belief system of many, but not all, atheists is that theism is bad. The belief system of theists is that atheism is bad. If a sufficient number of atheists oppose religion, they (atheists) will probably become the enemy of the religious.
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804

19th December 2011, 08:28 AM	#134
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by dafydd Same here in Belgium. I don't know anyone who goes to church. I assume that most of my friends and acquaintances are atheists but it's not something that anyone ever mentions. The are all too smart to be scientologists. My cats are too smart to be scientologists (and far too nice).
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

19th December 2011, 08:33 AM	#135
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	Originally Posted by Justinian2 The belief system of many, but not all, atheists is that theism is bad. I'm sure that some hold this opinion, but that's not a belief system.
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480

19th December 2011, 08:35 AM	#136
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge It means the set of people who do not believe gods exist is not the same as the set of people who are not religious. There are lots of highly religious Buddhists who do not believe in any gods. Atheists are probably better described as a category than a group. And categorized by their lack of belief, not their belief. By calling them a group you wrongly imply some cohesion or common purpose. They are merely the set of people who are not members of the set of people who believe in any of the various gods. From Wikipedia: Quote: Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.[1][2] Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the difference between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief. In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves there is a God, whereas an atheist disbelieves there is a God.[2] To me, agnosticism is more valid that atheism. Agnosticism does not make war with the theists as do the nonreligious. As a Scientologist, I think much like the atheistic Buddhists except that I have a slight belief in spirits of all sizes - except those powerful enough to dictate my life. Scientologists are tolerant of all other religions.
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804

19th December 2011, 08:47 AM	#137
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 25,051	Originally Posted by Justinian2 To me, agnosticism is more valid that atheism. Agnosticism does not make war with the theists as do the nonreligious. Do we need to start another thread to explain agnosticism to you, as that's clearly another word whose meaning you don't understand. Did you go clear with that, yet?
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

19th December 2011, 08:52 AM	#138
Ignosticist Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 311	Atheist, Agnostic, Ignostic "An atheist would say, 'I don't believe God exists'; an agnostic would say, 'I don't know whether or not God exists'; and an ignostic would say, 'I don't know what you mean when you say, "God exists" '." Originally Posted by Justinian2 To me, agnosticism is more valid that atheism. Agnosticism does not make war with the theists as do the nonreligious. Well, then ignosticism is even more valid than agnosticism, ignosticism realizes you guys do not even know what you guys are talking about. The central subject of the discussion, "god" , is, due to the extremely nonsensical way it is used, meaningless. Originally Posted by Justinian2 As a Scientologist, I think much like the atheistic Buddhists except that I have a slight belief in spirits of all sizes - except those powerful enough to dictate my life. Scientologists are tolerant of all other religions. See? All nonsense. You can talk about squares of different sizes... but "spirits"? aren't those supposed by some people to be incorporeal and therefore "sizeless"?
	Last edited by Ignosticist; 19th December 2011 at 08:57 AM.

19th December 2011, 08:55 AM	#139
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,461	Originally Posted by Justinian2 David MisCaviage wasn't even half way to clear (below OT) when papers were supposedly signed by LRH (after he had a stroke) that gave David the power to become the leader of Scientology, David was just a lowly courier between LRH and the church at the time. So this lowly inferior was able to steal power from people who had much higher OT levels than he did? Again, it sounds like higher OT levels offer no discernible advantage in life. Quote: I always see something suspicious in the actions of the nefarious before they become infamous. So you've known a lot of infamous people then?
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

19th December 2011, 08:57 AM	#140
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In a world lit only by fire. Posts: 17,907	Originally Posted by Justinian2 The belief system of many, but not all, atheists is that theism is bad. Wrong. That is a belief, not a belief system. And, unlike religious beliefs, it is - for specific definitions of the word "bad" - in principle a falsifiable claim, and therefore one worth considering. Originally Posted by Justinian2 The belief system of theists is that atheism is bad. Again, not a belief system, but a specific belief. This confusion betrays extremely wooly thinking. Originally Posted by Justinian2 If a sufficient number of atheists oppose religion, they (atheists) will probably become the enemy of the religious. And if a sufficient number of them decide to paint their houses green, they will probably become major consumers of green paint. Is there any particular reason why you've stated that rather obvious tautology? Dave
	__________________ "We will punish the murderer together. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy." - Fabian Stang, Mayor of Oslo SSKCAS, covert member

19th December 2011, 08:59 AM	#141
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,461	Originally Posted by Justinian2 The belief system of many, but not all, atheists is that theism is bad. The belief system of theists is that atheism is bad. If a sufficient number of atheists oppose religion, they (atheists) will probably become the enemy of the religious. And many, but not all, people who don't collect stamps regard collecting stamps as boring. That doesn't make people who don't collect stamps a "creed". Not that your response addressed what Dave Rogers wrote.
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

19th December 2011, 09:03 AM	#142
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804	Originally Posted by zooterkin Do we need to start another thread to explain agnosticism to you, as that's clearly another word whose meaning you don't understand. Did you go clear with that, yet? I have no need to logically answer your rabid reply as you apparently have already decided to be hostile regardless of anything I say.
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804

19th December 2011, 09:12 AM	#143
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote So this lowly inferior was able to steal power from people who had much higher OT levels than he did? Again, it sounds like higher OT levels offer no discernible advantage in life. So you've known a lot of infamous people then? I've read about the infamous and seen them on documentaries. I have also had some bad tenants with whom I was suspicious before they became a nuisance. As for this lowly inferior, apparently top lawyers were on his side. Scientologists can't overrule judges, government officials, and the FBI in this society. LRH's wife was in jail at the time because she spied on the FBI (and got caught).
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804

19th December 2011, 09:13 AM	#144
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,514	Originally Posted by Justinian2 The belief system of many, but not all, atheists is that theism is bad. That's so vague as to be meaningless. If you actually meant "most" rather than "many" it would be more meaningful but then I'd probably ask you to justify the claim.

19th December 2011, 09:16 AM	#145
Ignosticist Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 311	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge That's so vague as to be meaningless. As pretty much anything in this discussions is... Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge If you actually meant "most" rather than "many" it would be more meaningful but then I'd probably ask you to justify the claim. Justify the claim? It will be fun to watch him try....

19th December 2011, 09:19 AM	#146
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote And many, but not all, people who don't collect stamps regard collecting stamps as boring. That doesn't make people who don't collect stamps a "creed". Not that your response addressed what Dave Rogers wrote. We all have complex belief systems. My Scientology belief system starts with Dianetics which believes that we are all susceptible to important hypnotic-like phrases. Furthermore, the actions of many are guided by their own particular hypnotic-like phrases. Do you collect stamps? Has anyone ever told you "I think stamp collecting is boring" when you were tired? Sorry about the evaluation. I didn't mean to imply that you had been hypnotically induced into believing that 'stamp collecting is boring'. But that would be the type of implant that you could get if you were tired and heard that phrase. It would create internal conflict if you were an avid stamp collector. That is an example of one of my sub-beliefs, anyway.
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804	Last edited by Justinian2; 19th December 2011 at 09:25 AM.

19th December 2011, 09:22 AM	#147
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Justinian2 We all have complex belief systems. My Scientology belief system starts with Dianetics which believes that we are all susceptible to important hypnotic-like phrases. Furthermore, the actions of many are guided by their own particular hypnotic-like phrases. Do you collect stamps? Dianetics is made up crap.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th December 2011, 09:27 AM	#148
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,514	Originally Posted by Justinian2 To me, agnosticism is more valid that atheism. To me, agnosticism is declining to come to a conclusion in the absence of proof. But I'd by lying if I said that, having considered the evidence, I actually thought there was even an infinitessimal chance that God exists. Quote: Agnosticism does not make war with the theists as do the nonreligious. I do not make war with theists despite being nonreligious. I'm prepared to tell people what I believe, though, which is not the same thing at all. Quote: As a Scientologist, I think much like the atheistic Buddhists except that I have a slight belief in spirits of all sizes - except those powerful enough to dictate my life. Scientologists are tolerant of all other religions. I don't believe in spirits at all. Not even slightly. I also tolerate all other religions. I reserve the right not to tolerate whatever people feel allowed or required to do to other people in the name of their religion.

19th December 2011, 09:30 AM	#149
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 25,051	Originally Posted by Justinian2 I have no need to logically answer your rabid reply as you apparently have already decided to be hostile regardless of anything I say. Probably just as well; I'd save your first attempt for something a bit more important. It also seems 'rabid' is another word you run through your clearing process.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

19th December 2011, 09:42 AM	#150
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,931	Originally Posted by Justinian2 I allow gays their rights because I think natural selection will make gays extinct eventually. So you don't know that siblings share 50% genetic material and that rearing of siblings children by homosexuals would be a reproductive benefit and therefore carried on?
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

19th December 2011, 09:44 AM	#151
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge To me, agnosticism is declining to come to a conclusion in the absence of proof. But I'd by lying if I said that, having considered the evidence, I actually thought there was even an infinitessimal chance that God exists. Proof follows belief. For example, people had the belief that the world was a sphere before it was proven. It took hundreds of years to prove the world was a sphere. Sailors made a profit from their belief that the world was a sphere long before the fact was proven. There are many beliefs and theories in religion. An atheist knows that nothing else exists. I am very skeptical of the belief that nothing exists beyond what some worldly people can see with their own eyes. Quote: I do not make war with theists despite being nonreligious. I'm prepared to tell people what I believe, though, which is not the same thing at all. I don't believe in spirits at all. Not even slightly. I also tolerate all other religions. I reserve the right not to tolerate whatever people feel allowed or required to do to other people in the name of their religion. You have that right. However, people have good reason to be highly skeptical of your belief or absence of belief - whatever you call it.
Justinian2 Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,804

19th December 2011, 09:46 AM	#152
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,931	Originally Posted by Justinian2 The belief system of many, but not all, atheists is that theism is bad. Data ,evidence, citations? Most religions are somewhat detrimental to neutral, however deism itself is mostly neutral. Quote: The belief system of theists is that atheism is bad. If a sufficient number of atheists oppose religion, they (atheists) will probably become the enemy of the religious. Some theists are so strong in their faith that is a given. I am no threat, I just don't share their beliefs.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

19th December 2011, 09:49 AM	#153
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,931	Originally Posted by dafydd Dianetics is made up crap. Pretty much the statistics (and based upon very small sample sizes) are interesting but mostly unreplicated. Apparently some people have never heard of cognitive behavioral therapy, which would argue against any secret mind control phrases.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

19th December 2011, 09:49 AM	#154
Mister Agenda Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 2,635	Originally Posted by Justinian2 What do atheists do for Christmas? It depends. I ask people to give to charity instead of to me. Last year I had dinner with friends at a Chinese restaurant. This year I expect to celebrate at my gf's with some of her family. Originally Posted by Justinian2 What are your mores? I try to live with honesty, integrity, honor, and compassion. Originally Posted by Justinian2 What is your profession? If you mean what I do for a living, I manage a small department in a big corporation. If you were going for the other meaning, I suppose I'm a ratskep humanist. Originally Posted by Justinian2 What is your charity? My favorite is Camfed (educate girls in Africa). Originally Posted by Justinian2 How do you vote? I vote for the person who I think is the best candidate, or I protest vote Third Party (usually Libertarian) to show my displeasure at the offerings. Originally Posted by Justinian2 I assume all the answers are different. No implication. Just trying to get a feel for who you are. Good assumption.

19th December 2011, 09:52 AM	#155
Mister Agenda Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 2,635	Originally Posted by Justinian2 My town had no colored people, no Asian people, few Catholics, and no Jewish people. We were WASP. My college was pretty much the same. I doubt that I ever met an atheist in person. I certainly never met an atheist that raged against religion. I am familiar with Protestants, Masons, Catholics, Jews and Scientologists. Atheists are unknown. I was 42 before I knowingly met my third atheist. I started a Meetup for atheists, no one but me turned up for the first few meetings, but then two guys showed. One of them was someone I already knew, but didn't know was an atheist. Most of us don't rage against religion in casual conversation. Critiquing religion is appropriate in discussion forums, not so much with someone not interested in having that conversation.
	Last edited by Mister Agenda; 19th December 2011 at 11:25 AM. Reason: sp