Bunch of claims over at letsroll, have they been debunked? - Page 2

Sabrina · 23rd December 2011, 05:58 AM

The areas that were circled in the one picture were clearly of flames visible through the windows.

It's orange in color, slightly irregular at the top of the circle, and is visible between the "columns" of the aluminum cladding, which make it appear to be symmetrical in shape because of the angle the photograph was shot at. Flame. And where there's fire, there's invariably smoke. There's one claim debunked.

TSR · 23rd December 2011, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

I love that clause.

.
Yeah, some of our best work: The insanity clause.

What's that you say? Where's the sanity clause?

C'mon, we're all skeptics here: There's no such thing as Sanity Clause.

Happy Y'all-idays, y'all...
.

Dumb All Over · 23rd December 2011, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by TSR

.
Yeah, some of our best work: The insanity clause.

What's that you say? Where's the sanity clause?

C'mon, we're all skeptics here: There's no such thing as Sanity Clause.

Happy Y'all-idays, y'all...
.

^^

^^

And to you and yours, TSR!

NoahFence · 23rd December 2011, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by jonthompson

They laid quite a case out, there needs to be better answers than what we have here so far, thats why I was almost certain so called debunkers would have focused a lot of energy to letsrolls specific, various investigations/claims.

Lemme guess....

You're just asking questions?

NoahFence · 23rd December 2011, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by jonthompson

I didnt mean it that way, the label can be used non offensively you know, if anyone thinks offending is my aim here - its not.

What if one of those "fake" jumpers was my sister? My wife? My brother?

Scott Sommers · 23rd December 2011, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by cantonear1968

That's exactly what they believe! From the Harley Guy to, more disgustingly, Mark Bingham's mother. Paid actors who have stayed in these rolls FOR 10 YEARS!!

johnthompson, these are the claims you defend as "interesting". They are not. They are slander. They are disgusting. They are malicious. As Scott stated, they are a multitude of descriptions we cannot post on this forum. They are nothing but unsubstantiated claims that spew out of the most callous, and sometimes most demented, minds of the truth movement.

And you ask us to "debunk" them? They are not worthy of a viewing let alone a debunking!

It makes me think of the kids back in elementary school who would pick their nose and eat it just to get attention. I can't believe these guys are really in it to 'find the truth'. And I suppose that posting this really is giving jon the attention he craves at any cost. But it's not like Tracy Blevins who at least is clear there were casualties. This is a weird kind of thinking. What could produce such a break with reality except illness? Is this kind of person dangerous? Are these the kind of people who hurt animals for fun? I can't imagine where such thinking could come from except from someone so anti-social they think of being repulsive as a kind of socializing with people they hate.

sylvan8798 · 23rd December 2011, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers

This is a weird kind of thinking. What could produce such a break with reality except illness?

It's my concerted belief that these people don't actually believe this stuff, any more than anyone believes there were no planes. They probably think it's humorous, or it feeds their ego, to see how many people they can get to "agree" that there were no planes, or no victims, or whatever other outrageous claims they come up with.

Sabretooth · 23rd December 2011, 07:23 AM

If any of the truthers really paid attention...this pic would solve a lot of their "questions"...

It's a great silhouette of just how the construction of the towers was relatively minimal and how easily a plane strike could cause critical damage.

NoahFence · 23rd December 2011, 07:43 AM

But..but but....

You can't see through the top and bottom! That means it was solid steel and should have survived the impacts!

Inside jobby!!

Scott Sommers · 23rd December 2011, 08:29 AM

Here's where Jay and his buddies talk about whether Barbara Olsen was a real person
http://letsrollforums.com/has-anyone...eo-t21589.html
And even if you have seen her, it's all fake. For years and years and years, THEY have been manufacturing identities for the media. And what's more is that up until now, no one has noticed. It took that band of modern day heroes over on Let's Roll to figure this one out. Jon, how does it feel to be such a brave Truther hero that only you and your Internet buddies know the real Truth about things? It's been going on for decades now, all those fake famous people. Makes you wonder what the government is really like.

Hay Jon, maybe you can let us know what the Government is really like. Who's real and who's not? Who really runs the show? Lizards? Space aliens? I gotta know, man. And you're the only one here brave enough to speak the truth.

Horatius · 23rd December 2011, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers

This is a weird kind of thinking. What could produce such a break with reality except illness?

I've thought this for many years. I'm sure that there were enough people traumatized by the events of 9/11, that some of them will certainly have become clinically insane as a result. Some of the more extreme truthers we see are probably some of those people. They're trying to relieve their trauma caused by the events of 9/11 by claiming that those events never really took place.

twinstead · 23rd December 2011, 09:14 AM

Being obnoxiously and arrogantly crazy is way worse than simply being crazy.

A W Smith · 23rd December 2011, 09:50 AM

I see no reason whatsoever posted here in this thread to visit the Lets Troll forums. No claims made here, just a call for attention. bye bye now!

16.5 · 23rd December 2011, 10:05 AM

Curious that the truthers who whine the loudest about how "debunkers" employ "straw men" by mentioning the idiots on the Lets Roll Forums have not made an appearance in this thread to denounce those same theories.

alienentity · 23rd December 2011, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by jonthompson

Please source me if so. It's another world over there. They claim to prove the jumpers that day were fake. etc...

There's so many claims there, can someone tell me their story or show me where to look for answers to their most notorious claims?

Why on earth would you want to pay attention to the guanophrenic ravings of these people, let alone seriously entertain these ideas? They don't need debunking because they're so phony.

Oz1976 · 23rd December 2011, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by jonthompson

I don't get your first statement, I didn't mean offense by saying so called.

To answer your question, some of their stuff raises legit questions and they seem kinda popular, so I figured debunkers had to answer back and that would be a task.

I'm going to look for that pic, to see what you guys think of the formation I saw on the towers.

No...no it doesn't...none of their idiocy raises legitimate questions. VicSims? Tell that to 3,000 families that congregate at the site of Ground Zero every September 11th to toll the bell and read out their family members names. Are they all lying for the government?

Tell that to Joseph Pfeifer, battalion chief of Engine 1 / Ladder 7 on September 11th, 2001, who's brother Kevin Pfeifer died in WTC 2 when it collapsed. Tell that to the 300 other firefighters families that died that day, and the numerous other firemen who have died since from exposure to toxins.

It's clear to me you have not thought any of this nonsense through, nor have you done anything at all to counterbalance what you read over at that lunatic filled board. You want us to "debunk" their idiocy. It's like debunking a "no-planer" like Killtown or Nico Haupt who think the government used CGI planes and holograms and mind control to make us all believe it was planes.

Let me ask you something...if an entity is so powerful as to pull off the most elaborate and deadly terrorist attack on US soil ever and keep it a secret for 10 years....why would they need to do it? The common response is to go to war...if this entity was so powerful they could perpetrate this "false flag" with ZERO whistleblowers, and ZERO evidence, then they sure as hell could fabricate a freaking WMD in Iraq. They wouldn't need to committ this atrocity.

9/11 was perpetrated by 19 isamic jihadist's at the behest of Osama bin Laden and Kalid Sheik Mohammed....period. That's it. There is no underlying malice from the US Government or agents within. It was a terrorist attack. Those are the facts. Stop listening to Alex Jones.

NoahFence · 23rd December 2011, 10:46 AM

I predict we've seen the last of the OP.

carlitos · 23rd December 2011, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers

Is this kind of person dangerous?

dangerouse, actually.

catsmate1 · 23rd December 2011, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by sylvan8798

Why are these JAQers always so obvious?

Because they've never been exposed to scepticism or disbelief; they only hang out in CT fora where dissent and doubt aren't tolerated. Thus they can't handle people who don't believe in their sillyness.

cantonear1968 · 23rd December 2011, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers

It makes me think of the kids back in elementary school who would pick their nose and eat it just to get attention. I can't believe these guys are really in it to 'find the truth'. And I suppose that posting this really is giving jon the attention he craves at any cost. But it's not like Tracy Blevins who at least is clear there were casualties. This is a weird kind of thinking. What could produce such a break with reality except illness? Is this kind of person dangerous? Are these the kind of people who hurt animals for fun? I can't imagine where such thinking could come from except from someone so anti-social they think of being repulsive as a kind of socializing with people they hate.

Potentially, yes. Undoubtedly. Is every truther a potential mass killer? That may be open to debate (which I know you've done a lot of work on). But is this the sort of thinking that resides in spree killers? Absolutely. As we have seen in multiple recent examples. The sort of paranoid AND narcissistic thinking that leads these people to believing they have it "all figured out" and they have to do something before it's done to them.

Who can understand the logic behind their actions? Only in their minds does this make sense. But believing there were no victims in the WTCs, or no planes, or paid actors have been portraying these roles for 10 years.....well I would say that IS the sort of thinking that makes them potentially dangerous.

Horatius · 23rd December 2011, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by cantonear1968

Who can understand the logic behind their actions? Only in their minds does this make sense. But believing there were no victims in the WTCs, or no planes, or paid actors have been portraying these roles for 10 years.....well I would say that IS the sort of thinking that makes them potentially dangerous.

Particularly to those very same family members. These twits think they've twigged to the greatest conspiracy of all time, but the family members are the only ones they've clearly identified as being "in on it". Because of this, if one of them ever does snap and try something, I'd expect them to target some of the family members. They'd probably see it as some sort of rallying cry for all the truthers out there.

Cl1mh4224rd · 23rd December 2011, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

And what would have been the point of smoke generators anyways?

Smoke generators that apparently appear in only a single image and don't actually seem to be generating any smoke at all...

jaydeehess · 23rd December 2011, 01:57 PM

Post #1

Originally Posted by jonthompson

Please source me if so. It's another world over there. They claim to prove the jumpers that day were fake. They claim there was something attached to the building to make fake smoke, now I did look at the pic, it was a popular pic, that one where there's a person falling and one hanging out of a window, they say the people were put there to distract from the odd formation on the building, and to be honest it is odd, these things are protruding from the building and they're all evenly across it and identical. As a youngster I always thought it was damage to the building but I dont think it can be.

There's so many claims there, can someone tell me their story or show me where to look for answers to their most notorious claims?

Jon later then complains that no one has addressed the claims made! Yet he failed to actually list said claims, fully outline the single claim he does speak of, or post a link to the thread(S?) he is referring to. Are we supposed to go searching
to figure out what it is we are being asked to respond to? Seems typical of the lack of any energy 911 conspirators in general are willing to put into truly searching for truth.

So its not until post 14 that we get a link to claims made on LetsRoll. This by a debunker asking esstentaially the questions I just outlined above. Its not until post 29 that we get a picture, those posted by Beachnut.

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers

I live in a different time zone and turn on my computer at a different time than everyone else. So by the time I turned it on today, there it is, someone puking out crap about Let's Roll.

Let's get this straight, it isn't good enough to just say,

everything over on Let's Roll is offensive. It's as offensive as Holocaust denial. It's a disgusting collection of crap that appears mentally ill.

No. This is wrong. There is nothing there that seems "legit". It appears mentally ill to me. It is insane. It is crazy. It is the most disgusting and perverted collection of crap, I have ever seen. My ability to describe how I feel about Let's Roll is limited severely by the rules of this forum that regulate names I can call registered members.

What exactly is it that you think is "legit"?
1.That there were no victims on 9/11?
2. "There is no real evidence of jumpers."
3. That no firemen died? also or for the whole 'lying fireman' thread.
4. That teams of actors tour the country pretending to be the families of victims?
5. The entire idea of an 'attack' on the WTC Buildings was faked.

Or you can head over to the 9/11 Directory links where that Truther hero Phil Jayhan spells it all out for the the people who aren't nut bars.
http://letsrollforums.com/new-9-11-l...108#post182108

Who could believe this crap? I can only imagine this is appealing to the drugged out homeless who have no idea how the world works. Actors pretending to be family members? And the only ones who noticed this are the brave souls on Let's Roll who risk their lives letting the rest of us know. Legit? You've gotta be joking.

Having now gone and looked into the claims in the threads using the links provided by Scott (i.e. NOT by the poster who asked that claims on LetsRoll be addressed), I have to say that I fear that the percentage of persons suffering from mental illness, or personality disorders, in N.America may be higher than anyone believes.

If I were to be coming into the topic of 9/11 conspiracy now rather than having begun looking into it in Sept of 2001, I would be shocked at the level of paranoia and utter stupidity displayed in the LetsRoll threads. Instead I find it sadly commonplace.

jaydeehess · 23rd December 2011, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Horatius

Particularly to those very same family members. These twits think they've twigged to the greatest conspiracy of all time, but the family members are the only ones they've clearly identified as being "in on it". Because of this, if one of them ever does snap and try something, I'd expect them to target some of the family members. They'd probably see it as some sort of rallying cry for all the truthers out there.

[paranoid mode] The threads at LetsRoll that claim the jumpers and victim families are fakes are misinformation designed to push the more unstable of 911 Truthers into a mass killing such as recently occured in Sweden , or a targeted muder of a 9/11 victim's family. The resultant backlash, derison, hate and disgust of all 9/11 conspiracy believers would further drive them into the margins of society.[/paranoid mode]

Scott Sommers · 23rd December 2011, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by cantonear1968

Potentially, yes. Undoubtedly. Is every truther a potential mass killer? That may be open to debate (which I know you've done a lot of work on). But is this the sort of thinking that resides in spree killers? Absolutely. As we have seen in multiple recent examples. The sort of paranoid AND narcissistic thinking that leads these people to believing they have it "all figured out" and they have to do something before it's done to them.

Who can understand the logic behind their actions? Only in their minds does this make sense. But believing there were no victims in the WTCs, or no planes, or paid actors have been portraying these roles for 10 years.....well I would say that IS the sort of thinking that makes them potentially dangerous.

Over the years T.A.M., who is a medical doctor with experience treating mentally ill patients, has commented on this point,

Originally Posted by T.A.M.

I think it is a legitimate question to wonder if CTers suffer from mental illness. From my encounters with them, limited as they may be from internet chat and postings, i see a much higher degree of paranoia then one finds in the average population. That coupled with an unusual amount of refusal to listen to reason or logic, does make me seriously consider if there is an abnormally high level of mental illness in that group of individuals, in particular, in terms of Personality Disorders, as we were discussing earlier.

Certain, to flippantly throw the words at a CTer "you're mentally ill" is in por taste, and perhaps even slanderous, but I think the possibility is seriously there.

Originally Posted by T.A.M.

I too have worked with hundreds of mentally ill, and do so daily (not hundreds daily, but I see about 3-4 everyday who fit the term "mentally ill").

(1) CT movement wrt 9/11 truth is still a very small movement.
(2) As I have said before, the chances of any true "Schizophrenics" being amongst the movement is slim, simply because true Schizophrenia would not allow enough focused, trained thought for most if not all Schizophrenics to actually follow the ideas and support them.
(3) I think the conclusion, at least from my pov, is that if there is any surplus of mental illness in the CT group, it would be in the form of Personality Disorders, in particular Borderline, Antisocial, and Schizotypcal.

It does not surprise me that you see more Woo coming from the therapists etc... they have the "focused" train of thought to actually forumulate strong opinions and then support or propagate them...as do most of the non-schizophrenic population.

Of course, a well treated Schizophrenic, would be able to do so, if remaining on their meds long enough...which is always an issue.

And jaydeehess, you're not the only one here who has this feeling,

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

Having now gone and looked into the claims in the threads using the links provided by Scott (i.e. NOT by the poster who asked that claims on LetsRoll be addressed), I have to say that I fear that the percentage of persons suffering from mental illness, or personality disorders, in N.America may be higher than anyone believes.

If I were to be coming into the topic of 9/11 conspiracy now rather than having begun looking into it in Sept of 2001, I would be shocked at the level of paranoia and utter stupidity displayed in the LetsRoll threads. Instead I find it sadly commonplace.

Here's the observations of an experienced professional back in 2007,

Originally Posted by T.A.M.

I see where you are coming from...lol

In my PROFESSIONAL opinion, a few of the CTist LEADERS exhibit extreme Paranoia, a symptom often seen in schizophrenia, but also seen in other disorders, such as Schizotypal and Borderline Personality Disorders. A few of the Leaders even exhibit some of the abnormal THOUGHT PROCESSES often seen in true schizophrenics, such as Tangental thought. However, These Truther Leaders do not seem to think they suffer from any form of mental illness, and do not exhibit many of the other signs of true Schizophrenia, which makes me believe that if they do suffer from a mental disorder, it would most likely be in the form of a Personality Disorder.

Of course a complete interview and examination of the person would be needed to make a proper diagnosis.

TAM

Robrob · 23rd December 2011, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by jonthompson

They laid quite a case out, there needs to be better answers than what we have here so far, thats why I was almost certain so called debunkers would have focused a lot of energy to letsrolls specific, various investigations/claims.

I suspect you think somehow the "logic" of your claims will overshadow your obvious attempt at pretending to be "undecided?"

I can just imagine the claims; fake planes fly into WTC, fake bodies are thrown out, fake smoke is generated, demolitions bring down the buildings, etc...

That it would have been 10,000 times easier to simply hijack real planes and really fly them into real buildings and cause real fires seems to have escaped the truthers.

dc1971 · 23rd December 2011, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by jonthompson

Please source me if so. It's another world over there. ~~They~~ HE claim(s) to prove the jumpers that day were fake. ~~They~~ HE claim(s) there was something attached to the building to make fake smoke, now I did look at the pic, it was a popular pic, that one where there's a person falling and one hanging out of a window, ~~they~~ HE say(s) the people were put there to distract from the odd formation on the building, and to be honest it is odd, these things are protruding from the building and they're all evenly across it and identical. As a youngster I always thought it was damage to the building but I dont think it can be.

FTFY. Seems there is only one guy making posts over there anymore and it happens to be the forum administrator.

cjnewson88 · 23rd December 2011, 09:08 PM

Photos apparently showing smoke pipes.. yet also have fires burning (and billowing smoke) above the 'pipes'.. Are they saying the fire was fake too? If so, then the who ever took this photo didn't do a very good job of editing out the smoke pipes!! Ridiculous.

I have heard some messed up theories before, some really batty ones, but never, have I ever, even got wind that there are people who truly believe faked firefighters/fire/smoke/jumpers/victims.. what a discussing bunch of complete and utter obvious bollocks!!

These people should be shot.

leftysergeant · 24th December 2011, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by cjnewson88

Photos apparently showing smoke pipes.. yet also have fires burning (and billowing smoke) above the 'pipes'.. Are they saying the fire was fake too?

According to that nutbar Jayhan, yes.

000063 · 24th December 2011, 06:02 AM

Isn't that the same forum that once claimed every single piece of photo or video of 9/11 was altered?

Stout · 24th December 2011, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by Spyke

Jesus *********** christ!! Why oh why did I click on those links and start reading that stuff over at those Forums?
I've never been there before and I'll never go there again.

I'm totally flabbergasted. I cannot believe that they actually write some of the stuff that they do.

There's so much sick stuff there I can barely comprehend it..No jumpers? Seriously??

I get a real kick out of the Moderators attitudes too. Nice work.

I was asking myself the same question.

I do see a use for it though. If someone is doing a little twoofer wrangling over on a not to skeptic heavy site, letsroll might be a useful tool for going on the offensive against the tm in general rather than the usual, twoofer makes claim, debunker has to refute it.

It would be interesting to just attack the tm in general and try to put the woofer on the defensive, reverse the roles, so to speak.

jaydeehess · 24th December 2011, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers

Over the years T.A.M., who is a medical doctor with experience treating mentally ill patients, has commented on this point,

And jaydeehess, you're not the only one here who has this feeling,

Here's the observations of an experienced professional back in 2007,

While I am far from a professional in the field I was once maried to a woman who was diagnosed with "Borderline Personality Disorder".
She was convinced that I was seeing a former girlfriend; her evidence for this was; that the other woman had moved back to our town, and the lyrics to the Leonard Cohen song "Famous Blue Raincoat" which she was convinced about me (nothing in the song actually resembled me other than a passing reference) and asked me seriously if I had ever met Cohen and related my past to him.

The leaps of thought that characterize the 9/11 movement, and in particular, the thoughts expressed on LetsRoll, are deeply reminiscent of my ex-wife.

Scott Sommers · 24th December 2011, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

While I am far from a professional in the field I was once maried to a woman who was diagnosed with "Borderline Personality Disorder".
She was convinced that I was seeing a former girlfriend; her evidence for this was; that the other woman had moved back to our town, and the lyrics to the Leonard Cohen song "Famous Blue Raincoat" which she was convinced about me (nothing in the song actually resembled me other than a passing reference) and asked me seriously if I had ever met Cohen and related my past to him.

The leaps of thought that characterize the 9/11 movement, and in particular, the thoughts expressed on LetsRoll, are deeply reminiscent of my ex-wife.

I can't speak about the mental health of people in the Truth Movement. In something related though, I can and have addressed their ability to assemble facts into arguments. They don't follow what you expect from adults. It's like watching adolescent kids argue. This whole Let's Roll-thing is structured like a "...but what if it was" type argument. As in, "I know the photograph is real and those things are the torn edges of the outside of the building...but what if they were pipes connected to smoke generators? What then?" There's no sense at all that data has to be real and connected with other aspects of the thing under observation. There's no sense at all that explanations have to have anything to do with the data. There's no understanding that the relationship between physical things can be tested with mathematics. Or that just putting numbers next to some words might not be the right use of mathematics.

I'm going to quote myself from an earlier post in which I reflected on comments from Oystein that Truthers make vague statements about how things should and shouldn't have looked on 9/11 without any clear indication of what they mean,

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers

Let me evaluate this.

From a Piagetian point of view, this lack of a systematic measurement system is characteristic of the Piaget's 3rd stage of cognitive development concrete operational stage. A knowledge of order and logic can be demonstrated, but - as the Great Wiki says - our person can "only solve problems that apply to actual (concrete) objects or events, and not abstract concepts or hypothetical tasks." One of the manifestations of this is a failure to take into account standardization of measurement because the importance of comparison - being an abstract concept - is not understood.

The next stage, formal operations, is often described as characteristic of cognitive development beginning with the second decade of life. However, it's now clear that many people never reach this stage and for the many who do reach it, formal operations are observed in only a limited range of cognitive operations.

I have often thought of science as a codified formal operations applied to the physical world. That Truthers go about 'measuring' things without any system that would allow comparison points to their failure in performing formal operations. In a way, it's a kind of folk science of the events of 9/11. Without any way to produce data that's comparable either with scientific data or with the data of other Truther so-called 'scientists', it appears upon a systematic inspection to be just a mass of statements connected by a rhetoric.

I'm sure that the origin of this confusion is, for some Truthers, found in mental illness. Some of them don't seem to have that excuse. some seem to be really, really stupid. There's a reason why David Lynch doesn't say anything anymore about 9/11 conspiracy and Charlie Sheen does. And I suspect it's just a really clear matter of being stupid.

jaydeehess · 24th December 2011, 09:20 AM

Quote:

That Truthers go about 'measuring' things without any system that would allow comparison points to their failure in performing formal operations. In a way, it's a kind of folk science of the events of 9/11. Without any way to produce data that's comparable either with scientific data or with the data of other Truther so-called 'scientists', it appears upon a systematic inspection to be just a mass of statements connected by a rhetoric.

Spot on, it describes the entire 9/11 conspiracy mem to a "T".
Thanks you for a new sig.

Robrob · 24th December 2011, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

While I am far from a professional in the field I was once maried to a woman who was diagnosed with "Borderline Personality Disorder".
She was convinced that I was seeing a former girlfriend; her evidence for this was; that the other woman had moved back to our town, and the lyrics to the Leonard Cohen song "Famous Blue Raincoat" which she was convinced about me (nothing in the song actually resembled me other than a passing reference) and asked me seriously if I had ever met Cohen and related my past to him.

The leaps of thought that characterize the 9/11 movement, and in particular, the thoughts expressed on LetsRoll, are deeply reminiscent of my ex-wife.

Many CT exhibit classic elements of mental disorder (and I mean that in a very clinical way). Paranoia, the government is out to get me, the government is trying to kill me, the government is spying on me, the government is poisoning me, mind control, medical experiments, trackers, etc...

plague311 · 24th December 2011, 04:44 PM

Certainly looks like the OP got out of here in a hurry, must not have much left to say.

I can say that this is one of the dumbest things I have seen.

As previously stated, going through all that work to fake planes, smoke and fire (it would have to be all 3. If you believe the planes hit, then the fires HAD to come, which means smoke...etc.) would honestly be WAY more work and difficulty then just flying planes into the WTC. Also, if you were going to fake something, maybe, JUST MAYBE one of the most populated areas in the US wouldn't be the best place to do it. You know, there might be a person or two around that would see it.

Jim_MDP · 24th December 2011, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd

Smoke generators that apparently appear in only a single image and don't actually seem to be generating any smoke at all...

Yeah, well... broke by the thermite explosions. It was poor planning. You see... what we shoulda...

Oops, said too much, haven't I?

OK, that's probably going to be my first and last truther thread post.

It's all just kinda too sad, isn't it?

jaydeehess · 27th December 2011, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

Certainly looks like the OP got out of here in a hurry, must not have much left to say.

I can say that this is one of the dumbest things I have seen.

As previously stated, going through all that work to fake planes, smoke and fire (it would have to be all 3. If you believe the planes hit, then the fires HAD to come, which means smoke...etc.) would honestly be WAY more work and difficulty then just flying planes into the WTC. Also, if you were going to fake something, maybe, JUST MAYBE one of the most populated areas in the US wouldn't be the best place to do it. You know, there might be a person or two around that would see it.

Ok so let's actually address the claims. Not that deluded persons would ever accept that they are deluded.

Yes, I too would have to say that all 3 would have to be faked. Evene a small aircraft crash will produce a large office fire and thus smoke. However that is not the only problem. Faking larger fire and smoke upon the crash of an aircraft would REQUIRE that the smoke generators be ideally placed. Miss the floors where the smoke generators are placed will look very odd as smoke pours out of untouched levels below the supposed impact site.

Faking the crash is going to take a bit of doing as well of course. Not only do you have to fool thousands of witnesses, fake hundreds of videos and photos but you alos have to deal with creating large holes in the structures without causing that exterior to exit the structure outwards significantly. Afterall you want this to look like the damage occured towards the inside of the structure not from inside to out. Explosives mounted on the outside of the structure could do that but would be quite visible as fireballs as the holes are created. None of these were seen, in fact the 9/11 conspiracy crowd is quite happy to note that the planes went into the structure with little debris expelled to the street and with little to no flame at impact. The fireball occured a few seconds later with the hole in the building quite visible.

So, for this and a myriad of other reasons outlined in several other threads, we can conclude that the planes were not faked and that large aircraft did in fact hit the towers. Given that when a large aircraft crashes it creates almost invariably results in a large fire (unless it does so because it ran out of fuel), we can expect a large fire to occur in the debris of the aircraft which is now proximate to an even greater amount of office debris which will result in a large area office fire. Even if we limit the amount of liquid fuel on board to say 1000 gallons it would represent an enormous volume of accelerant that would be dispered into the structure at a relatively high velocity over several levels of the structure. That will result in the large are fires being on several levels of the structure within seconds of impact.

Obviously there is no requirement then to supplement these multi-level large area fires with additional smoke generators, AND crashing large aircraft into the structures would in fact be much more efficient, much more convincing and safer (in a ' don't get caught' fashion) than faking it all.

As for people trapped/jumping. Once again its going to be completely unneccessary to fake any of that. If one puts forth that few people died above the impact floors then one must assume that all of the people normally there were informed to not be there that day. So far there is not a single soul who has come forward to say that he/she was informed not to go to work until later in the day of the hundreds of them that would have to get that message. Once again its going to be a lot safer and efficient to simply let those people go to work and have them trapped bu fire and smoke and choose to jump out of that hell to certain death rather than remain where they cannot breath or see while lungs, throat, nose and eyes feel like they are being chemically burned due to the toxic smoke produced (with accompanying retching and gagging), or actually feel the heat of the fires searing their skin and causing their clothes to singe and smoke.

Given that there have been many, many examples of people jumping from burning buildings to certain death, in the past its obvious that this is what occured in the towers.

Now I feel dirty for having actually responded, but perhaps the original poster is satisfied now that it has been.

That poster may also have learned a valuable lesson in this thread; that if one wishes discourse on a subject then its proper to first fully outline what it is that they wish to discuss and, when referring to something on a web page to actually include the url of that page.

Dash80 · 27th December 2011, 01:35 PM

*Reads the OP*

WTF?! WHY OH WHY would this guy think anyone sane would waste time on this **** ?

*Very slowly backs out of the thread*

Strawberry · 27th December 2011, 01:41 PM

If this is a Poe its nowhere near as funny as my "suburbian housewifes as satanic CIA assassins" thread.

23rd December 2011, 05:58 AM	#41
Sabrina Wicked Lovely Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spinning through space Posts: 6,873	The areas that were circled in the one picture were clearly of flames visible through the windows. It's orange in color, slightly irregular at the top of the circle, and is visible between the "columns" of the aluminum cladding, which make it appear to be symmetrical in shape because of the angle the photograph was shot at. Flame. And where there's fire, there's invariably smoke. There's one claim debunked.
	__________________ "Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is the right thing to do."-Justice Potter Stewart, US Supreme Court Justice 1915-1985 *Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons... for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.* *Sins are very desirable... as long as no one judges you for them.*

23rd December 2011, 06:16 AM	#42
TSR Do you know what this notorious criminal did? Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4,788	Originally Posted by Travis I love that clause. . Yeah, some of our best work: The insanity clause. What's that you say? Where's the sanity clause? C'mon, we're all skeptics here: There's no such thing as Sanity Clause. Happy Y'all-idays, y'all... .
	__________________ My apologies once again for not being allowed to use the obvious shorthand term for a person who knowingly posts untruths. Apparently someone finds that term uncivil, demonstrated and deserved as it is. . "My family is not my weakness, Max. It's my strength." Vince Faraday aka The Cape

23rd December 2011, 06:34 AM	#43
Dumb All Over A Little Ugly on the Side Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: They call it the Earth (which is a dumb kinda name) Posts: 3,693	Originally Posted by TSR . Yeah, some of our best work: The insanity clause. What's that you say? Where's the sanity clause? C'mon, we're all skeptics here: There's no such thing as Sanity Clause. Happy Y'all-idays, y'all... . ^^^^ And to you and yours, TSR!
	__________________ The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance-- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead." "Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." --Steve Martin

23rd December 2011, 06:42 AM	#44
NoahFence Psycho Kitty Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Patriot Nation Posts: 9,335	Originally Posted by jonthompson They laid quite a case out, there needs to be better answers than what we have here so far, thats why I was almost certain so called debunkers would have focused a lot of energy to letsrolls specific, various investigations/claims. Lemme guess.... You're just asking questions?
	__________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake. -Henry David Thoreau

23rd December 2011, 06:44 AM	#45
NoahFence Psycho Kitty Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Patriot Nation Posts: 9,335	Originally Posted by jonthompson I didnt mean it that way, the label can be used non offensively you know, if anyone thinks offending is my aim here - its not. What if one of those "fake" jumpers was my sister? My wife? My brother?
	__________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake. -Henry David Thoreau

23rd December 2011, 06:53 AM	#46
Scott Sommers Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,643	Originally Posted by cantonear1968 That's exactly what they believe! From the Harley Guy to, more disgustingly, Mark Bingham's mother. Paid actors who have stayed in these rolls FOR 10 YEARS!! johnthompson, these are the claims you defend as "interesting". They are not. They are slander. They are disgusting. They are malicious. As Scott stated, they are a multitude of descriptions we cannot post on this forum. They are nothing but unsubstantiated claims that spew out of the most callous, and sometimes most demented, minds of the truth movement. And you ask us to "debunk" them? They are not worthy of a viewing let alone a debunking! It makes me think of the kids back in elementary school who would pick their nose and eat it just to get attention. I can't believe these guys are really in it to 'find the truth'. And I suppose that posting this really is giving jon the attention he craves at any cost. But it's not like Tracy Blevins who at least is clear there were casualties. This is a weird kind of thinking. What could produce such a break with reality except illness? Is this kind of person dangerous? Are these the kind of people who hurt animals for fun? I can't imagine where such thinking could come from except from someone so anti-social they think of being repulsive as a kind of socializing with people they hate.
	__________________ for the original publication Who Still Believes in 9/11 Conspiracies? for Google Books Becoming Taiwan: From Colonialism to Democracy Last edited by Scott Sommers; 23rd December 2011 at 06:54 AM.

23rd December 2011, 07:01 AM	#47
sylvan8798 Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,510	Originally Posted by Scott Sommers This is a weird kind of thinking. What could produce such a break with reality except illness? It's my concerted belief that these people don't actually believe this stuff, any more than anyone believes there were no planes. They probably think it's humorous, or it feeds their ego, to see how many people they can get to "agree" that there were no planes, or no victims, or whatever other outrageous claims they come up with.
	__________________ DoYouEverWonder - Engineers and architects don't have to design steel buildings not to collapse from gravity. They already conquered gravity when they built it. Last edited by sylvan8798; 23rd December 2011 at 07:03 AM.

23rd December 2011, 07:23 AM	#48
Sabretooth No Ordinary Rabbit Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Wyoming, NY Posts: 6,163	If any of the truthers really paid attention...this pic would solve a lot of their "questions"... It's a great silhouette of just how the construction of the towers was relatively minimal and how easily a plane strike could cause critical damage.
	__________________ -------------------------------------- Stop asking me about that stupid fruity cereal...that's the OTHER rabbit! Last edited by Sabretooth; 23rd December 2011 at 07:25 AM.

23rd December 2011, 07:43 AM	#49
NoahFence Psycho Kitty Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Patriot Nation Posts: 9,335	But..but but.... You can't see through the top and bottom! That means it was solid steel and should have survived the impacts! Inside jobby!!
	__________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake. -Henry David Thoreau

23rd December 2011, 08:29 AM	#50
Scott Sommers Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,643	Here's where Jay and his buddies talk about whether Barbara Olsen was a real person http://letsrollforums.com/has-anyone...eo-t21589.html And even if you have seen her, it's all fake. For years and years and years, THEY have been manufacturing identities for the media. And what's more is that up until now, no one has noticed. It took that band of modern day heroes over on Let's Roll to figure this one out. Jon, how does it feel to be such a brave Truther hero that only you and your Internet buddies know the real Truth about things? It's been going on for decades now, all those fake famous people. Makes you wonder what the government is really like. Hay Jon, maybe you can let us know what the Government is really like. Who's real and who's not? Who really runs the show? Lizards? Space aliens? I gotta know, man. And you're the only one here brave enough to speak the truth.
	__________________ for the original publication Who Still Believes in 9/11 Conspiracies? for Google Books Becoming Taiwan: From Colonialism to Democracy

23rd December 2011, 08:32 AM	#51
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by Scott Sommers This is a weird kind of thinking. What could produce such a break with reality except illness? I've thought this for many years. I'm sure that there were enough people traumatized by the events of 9/11, that some of them will certainly have become clinically insane as a result. Some of the more extreme truthers we see are probably some of those people. They're trying to relieve their trauma caused by the events of 9/11 by claiming that those events never really took place.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

23rd December 2011, 09:14 AM	#52
twinstead Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Big corner office in NWO Towers Posts: 11,580	Being obnoxiously and arrogantly crazy is way worse than simply being crazy.
	__________________ You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison

23rd December 2011, 09:50 AM	#53
A W Smith Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Central Jersey Posts: 7,031	Come Look! someones smearing on the walls over in ward C I see no reason whatsoever posted here in this thread to visit the Lets Troll forums. No claims made here, just a call for attention. bye bye now!
	__________________ 911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude.

23rd December 2011, 10:05 AM	#54
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,808	Curious that the truthers who whine the loudest about how "debunkers" employ "straw men" by mentioning the idiots on the Lets Roll Forums have not made an appearance in this thread to denounce those same theories.
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,808

23rd December 2011, 10:16 AM	#55
alienentity Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Somewhere between Here and There Posts: 4,240	Originally Posted by jonthompson Please source me if so. It's another world over there. They claim to prove the jumpers that day were fake. etc... There's so many claims there, can someone tell me their story or show me where to look for answers to their most notorious claims? Why on earth would you want to pay attention to the guanophrenic ravings of these people, let alone seriously entertain these ideas? They don't need debunking because they're so phony.
	__________________ Heiwa - 'Anyone suggesting that part C structure can one-way crush down part A structure is complicit to mass murder!' 000063 - 'Problem with the Truthers' theories is that anyone with enough power to pull it off doesn't need to in the first place.' mrkinnies 'I'm not a no-planer' 'I don't believe Flight 77 hit the Pentagon'

23rd December 2011, 10:43 AM	#56
Oz1976 Muse Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 681	Originally Posted by jonthompson I don't get your first statement, I didn't mean offense by saying so called. To answer your question, some of their stuff raises legit questions and they seem kinda popular, so I figured debunkers had to answer back and that would be a task. I'm going to look for that pic, to see what you guys think of the formation I saw on the towers. No...no it doesn't...none of their idiocy raises legitimate questions. VicSims? Tell that to 3,000 families that congregate at the site of Ground Zero every September 11th to toll the bell and read out their family members names. Are they all lying for the government? Tell that to Joseph Pfeifer, battalion chief of Engine 1 / Ladder 7 on September 11th, 2001, who's brother Kevin Pfeifer died in WTC 2 when it collapsed. Tell that to the 300 other firefighters families that died that day, and the numerous other firemen who have died since from exposure to toxins. It's clear to me you have not thought any of this nonsense through, nor have you done anything at all to counterbalance what you read over at that lunatic filled board. You want us to "debunk" their idiocy. It's like debunking a "no-planer" like Killtown or Nico Haupt who think the government used CGI planes and holograms and mind control to make us all believe it was planes. Let me ask you something...if an entity is so powerful as to pull off the most elaborate and deadly terrorist attack on US soil ever and keep it a secret for 10 years....why would they need to do it? The common response is to go to war...if this entity was so powerful they could perpetrate this "false flag" with ZERO whistleblowers, and ZERO evidence, then they sure as hell could fabricate a freaking WMD in Iraq. They wouldn't need to committ this atrocity. 9/11 was perpetrated by 19 isamic jihadist's at the behest of Osama bin Laden and Kalid Sheik Mohammed....period. That's it. There is no underlying malice from the US Government or agents within. It was a terrorist attack. Those are the facts. Stop listening to Alex Jones.
Oz1976 Muse Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 681

23rd December 2011, 10:46 AM	#57
NoahFence Psycho Kitty Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Patriot Nation Posts: 9,335	I predict we've seen the last of the OP.
	__________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake. -Henry David Thoreau

23rd December 2011, 11:06 AM	#58
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 11,549	Originally Posted by Scott Sommers Is this kind of person dangerous? dangerouse, actually.

23rd December 2011, 11:23 AM	#59
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,138	Originally Posted by sylvan8798 Why are these JAQers always so obvious? Because they've never been exposed to scepticism or disbelief; they only hang out in CT fora where dissent and doubt aren't tolerated. Thus they can't handle people who don't believe in their sillyness.

23rd December 2011, 12:37 PM	#60
cantonear1968 Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 494	Originally Posted by Scott Sommers It makes me think of the kids back in elementary school who would pick their nose and eat it just to get attention. I can't believe these guys are really in it to 'find the truth'. And I suppose that posting this really is giving jon the attention he craves at any cost. But it's not like Tracy Blevins who at least is clear there were casualties. This is a weird kind of thinking. What could produce such a break with reality except illness? Is this kind of person dangerous? Are these the kind of people who hurt animals for fun? I can't imagine where such thinking could come from except from someone so anti-social they think of being repulsive as a kind of socializing with people they hate. Potentially, yes. Undoubtedly. Is every truther a potential mass killer? That may be open to debate (which I know you've done a lot of work on). But is this the sort of thinking that resides in spree killers? Absolutely. As we have seen in multiple recent examples. The sort of paranoid AND narcissistic thinking that leads these people to believing they have it "all figured out" and they have to do something before it's done to them. Who can understand the logic behind their actions? Only in their minds does this make sense. But believing there were no victims in the WTCs, or no planes, or paid actors have been portraying these roles for 10 years.....well I would say that IS the sort of thinking that makes them potentially dangerous.
	__________________ Richard Gage: "I don't claim that 100% of the concrete floors were vaporized, but 99% were". "I see so your deferring to the academic integrity of youtube. Wow." -Grandmastershek

23rd December 2011, 01:29 PM	#61
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by cantonear1968 Who can understand the logic behind their actions? Only in their minds does this make sense. But believing there were no victims in the WTCs, or no planes, or paid actors have been portraying these roles for 10 years.....well I would say that IS the sort of thinking that makes them potentially dangerous. Particularly to those very same family members. These twits think they've twigged to the greatest conspiracy of all time, but the family members are the only ones they've clearly identified as being "in on it". Because of this, if one of them ever does snap and try something, I'd expect them to target some of the family members. They'd probably see it as some sort of rallying cry for all the truthers out there.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

23rd December 2011, 01:54 PM	#62
Cl1mh4224rd Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 6,618	Originally Posted by Travis And what would have been the point of smoke generators anyways? Smoke generators that apparently appear in only a single image and don't actually seem to be generating any smoke at all...

23rd December 2011, 01:57 PM	#63
jaydeehess Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: I beedunk 40 miles from the border Posts: 10,826	Post #1 Originally Posted by jonthompson Please source me if so. It's another world over there. They claim to prove the jumpers that day were fake. They claim there was something attached to the building to make fake smoke, now I did look at the pic, it was a popular pic, that one where there's a person falling and one hanging out of a window, they say the people were put there to distract from the odd formation on the building, and to be honest it is odd, these things are protruding from the building and they're all evenly across it and identical. As a youngster I always thought it was damage to the building but I dont think it can be. There's so many claims there, can someone tell me their story or show me where to look for answers to their most notorious claims? Jon later then complains that no one has addressed the claims made! Yet he failed to actually list said claims, fully outline the single claim he does speak of, or post a link to the thread(S?) he is referring to. Are we supposed to go searching to figure out what it is we are being asked to respond to? Seems typical of the lack of any energy 911 conspirators in general are willing to put into truly searching for truth. So its not until post 14 that we get a link to claims made on LetsRoll. This by a debunker asking esstentaially the questions I just outlined above. Its not until post 29 that we get a picture, those posted by Beachnut. Originally Posted by Scott Sommers I live in a different time zone and turn on my computer at a different time than everyone else. So by the time I turned it on today, there it is, someone puking out crap about Let's Roll. Let's get this straight, it isn't good enough to just say, everything over on Let's Roll is offensive. It's as offensive as Holocaust denial. It's a disgusting collection of crap that appears mentally ill. No. This is wrong. There is nothing there that seems "legit". It appears mentally ill to me. It is insane. It is crazy. It is the most disgusting and perverted collection of crap, I have ever seen. My ability to describe how I feel about Let's Roll is limited severely by the rules of this forum that regulate names I can call registered members. What exactly is it that you think is "legit"? 1.That there were no victims on 9/11? 2. "There is no real evidence of jumpers." 3. That no firemen died? also or for the whole 'lying fireman' thread. 4. That teams of actors tour the country pretending to be the families of victims? 5. The entire idea of an 'attack' on the WTC Buildings was faked. Or you can head over to the 9/11 Directory links where that Truther hero Phil Jayhan spells it all out for the the people who aren't nut bars. http://letsrollforums.com/new-9-11-l...108#post182108 Who could believe this crap? I can only imagine this is appealing to the drugged out homeless who have no idea how the world works. Actors pretending to be family members? And the only ones who noticed this are the brave souls on Let's Roll who risk their lives letting the rest of us know. Legit? You've gotta be joking. Having now gone and looked into the claims in the threads using the links provided by Scott (i.e. NOT by the poster who asked that claims on LetsRoll be addressed), I have to say that I fear that the percentage of persons suffering from mental illness, or personality disorders, in N.America may be higher than anyone believes. If I were to be coming into the topic of 9/11 conspiracy now rather than having begun looking into it in Sept of 2001, I would be shocked at the level of paranoia and utter stupidity displayed in the LetsRoll threads. Instead I find it sadly commonplace.

23rd December 2011, 02:03 PM	#64
jaydeehess Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: I beedunk 40 miles from the border Posts: 10,826	Originally Posted by Horatius Particularly to those very same family members. These twits think they've twigged to the greatest conspiracy of all time, but the family members are the only ones they've clearly identified as being "in on it". Because of this, if one of them ever does snap and try something, I'd expect them to target some of the family members. They'd probably see it as some sort of rallying cry for all the truthers out there. [paranoid mode] The threads at LetsRoll that claim the jumpers and victim families are fakes are misinformation designed to push the more unstable of 911 Truthers into a mass killing such as recently occured in Sweden , or a targeted muder of a 9/11 victim's family. The resultant backlash, derison, hate and disgust of all 9/11 conspiracy believers would further drive them into the margins of society.[/paranoid mode]

23rd December 2011, 06:15 PM	#65
Scott Sommers Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,643	Originally Posted by cantonear1968 Potentially, yes. Undoubtedly. Is every truther a potential mass killer? That may be open to debate (which I know you've done a lot of work on). But is this the sort of thinking that resides in spree killers? Absolutely. As we have seen in multiple recent examples. The sort of paranoid AND narcissistic thinking that leads these people to believing they have it "all figured out" and they have to do something before it's done to them. Who can understand the logic behind their actions? Only in their minds does this make sense. But believing there were no victims in the WTCs, or no planes, or paid actors have been portraying these roles for 10 years.....well I would say that IS the sort of thinking that makes them potentially dangerous. Over the years T.A.M., who is a medical doctor with experience treating mentally ill patients, has commented on this point, Originally Posted by T.A.M. I think it is a legitimate question to wonder if CTers suffer from mental illness. From my encounters with them, limited as they may be from internet chat and postings, i see a much higher degree of paranoia then one finds in the average population. That coupled with an unusual amount of refusal to listen to reason or logic, does make me seriously consider if there is an abnormally high level of mental illness in that group of individuals, in particular, in terms of Personality Disorders, as we were discussing earlier. Certain, to flippantly throw the words at a CTer "you're mentally ill" is in por taste, and perhaps even slanderous, but I think the possibility is seriously there. Originally Posted by T.A.M. I too have worked with hundreds of mentally ill, and do so daily (not hundreds daily, but I see about 3-4 everyday who fit the term "mentally ill"). (1) CT movement wrt 9/11 truth is still a very small movement. (2) As I have said before, the chances of any true "Schizophrenics" being amongst the movement is slim, simply because true Schizophrenia would not allow enough focused, trained thought for most if not all Schizophrenics to actually follow the ideas and support them. (3) I think the conclusion, at least from my pov, is that if there is any surplus of mental illness in the CT group, it would be in the form of Personality Disorders, in particular Borderline, Antisocial, and Schizotypcal. It does not surprise me that you see more Woo coming from the therapists etc... they have the "focused" train of thought to actually forumulate strong opinions and then support or propagate them...as do most of the non-schizophrenic population. Of course, a well treated Schizophrenic, would be able to do so, if remaining on their meds long enough...which is always an issue. And jaydeehess, you're not the only one here who has this feeling, Originally Posted by jaydeehess Having now gone and looked into the claims in the threads using the links provided by Scott (i.e. NOT by the poster who asked that claims on LetsRoll be addressed), I have to say that I fear that the percentage of persons suffering from mental illness, or personality disorders, in N.America may be higher than anyone believes. If I were to be coming into the topic of 9/11 conspiracy now rather than having begun looking into it in Sept of 2001, I would be shocked at the level of paranoia and utter stupidity displayed in the LetsRoll threads. Instead I find it sadly commonplace. Here's the observations of an experienced professional back in 2007, Originally Posted by T.A.M. I see where you are coming from...lol In my PROFESSIONAL opinion, a few of the CTist LEADERS exhibit extreme Paranoia, a symptom often seen in schizophrenia, but also seen in other disorders, such as Schizotypal and Borderline Personality Disorders. A few of the Leaders even exhibit some of the abnormal THOUGHT PROCESSES often seen in true schizophrenics, such as Tangental thought. However, These Truther Leaders do not seem to think they suffer from any form of mental illness, and do not exhibit many of the other signs of true Schizophrenia, which makes me believe that if they do suffer from a mental disorder, it would most likely be in the form of a Personality Disorder. Of course a complete interview and examination of the person would be needed to make a proper diagnosis. TAM
	__________________ for the original publication Who Still Believes in 9/11 Conspiracies? for Google Books Becoming Taiwan: From Colonialism to Democracy Last edited by Scott Sommers; 23rd December 2011 at 06:19 PM.

23rd December 2011, 08:34 PM	#66
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660	Originally Posted by jonthompson They laid quite a case out, there needs to be better answers than what we have here so far, thats why I was almost certain so called debunkers would have focused a lot of energy to letsrolls specific, various investigations/claims. I suspect you think somehow the "logic" of your claims will overshadow your obvious attempt at pretending to be "undecided?" I can just imagine the claims; fake planes fly into WTC, fake bodies are thrown out, fake smoke is generated, demolitions bring down the buildings, etc... That it would have been 10,000 times easier to simply hijack real planes and really fly them into real buildings and cause real fires seems to have escaped the truthers.
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660

23rd December 2011, 08:34 PM	#67
dc1971 Banned Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,033	Originally Posted by jonthompson Please source me if so. It's another world over there. ~~They~~ HE claim(s) to prove the jumpers that day were fake. ~~They~~ HE claim(s) there was something attached to the building to make fake smoke, now I did look at the pic, it was a popular pic, that one where there's a person falling and one hanging out of a window, ~~they~~ HE say(s) the people were put there to distract from the odd formation on the building, and to be honest it is odd, these things are protruding from the building and they're all evenly across it and identical. As a youngster I always thought it was damage to the building but I dont think it can be. FTFY. Seems there is only one guy making posts over there anymore and it happens to be the forum administrator.
dc1971 Banned Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,033

23rd December 2011, 09:08 PM	#68
cjnewson88 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: The van with the big antenna Posts: 1,285	Photos apparently showing smoke pipes.. yet also have fires burning (and billowing smoke) above the 'pipes'.. Are they saying the fire was fake too? If so, then the who ever took this photo didn't do a very good job of editing out the smoke pipes!! Ridiculous. I have heard some messed up theories before, some really batty ones, but never, have I ever, even got wind that there are people who truly believe faked firefighters/fire/smoke/jumpers/victims.. what a discussing bunch of complete and utter obvious bollocks!! These people should be shot.
	__________________ Common sense has clearly been snuck up on from behind beaten several times on the head and left to bleed. Over 140 pieces of evidence showing American 77 hit the Pentagon http://therightbloggerbastard.blogspot.co.nz/ http://www.youtube.com/user/cjnewson88

24th December 2011, 05:11 AM	#69
leftysergeant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spanaway WA Posts: 18,613	Originally Posted by cjnewson88 Photos apparently showing smoke pipes.. yet also have fires burning (and billowing smoke) above the 'pipes'.. Are they saying the fire was fake too? According to that nutbar Jayhan, yes.
	__________________ No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.

24th December 2011, 06:02 AM	#70
000063 Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Not America. Posts: 4,738	Isn't that the same forum that once claimed every single piece of photo or video of 9/11 was altered?
	__________________ No, I'd like you to answer the question in two, simple, coherent sentences. ... That's how you present credible arguments in written form. -ergo, on me giving him a 2 digit number I can think of two reasons why bedunkers are often so loathe to explain their theories using plain, concise language--words even. - ergo

24th December 2011, 06:30 AM	#71
Stout Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 1,991	Originally Posted by Spyke Jesus *********** christ!! Why oh why did I click on those links and start reading that stuff over at those Forums? I've never been there before and I'll never go there again. I'm totally flabbergasted. I cannot believe that they actually write some of the stuff that they do. There's so much sick stuff there I can barely comprehend it..No jumpers? Seriously?? I get a real kick out of the Moderators attitudes too. Nice work. I was asking myself the same question. I do see a use for it though. If someone is doing a little twoofer wrangling over on a not to skeptic heavy site, letsroll might be a useful tool for going on the offensive against the tm in general rather than the usual, twoofer makes claim, debunker has to refute it. It would be interesting to just attack the tm in general and try to put the woofer on the defensive, reverse the roles, so to speak.

24th December 2011, 08:40 AM	#72
jaydeehess Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: I beedunk 40 miles from the border Posts: 10,826	Originally Posted by Scott Sommers Over the years T.A.M., who is a medical doctor with experience treating mentally ill patients, has commented on this point, And jaydeehess, you're not the only one here who has this feeling, Here's the observations of an experienced professional back in 2007, While I am far from a professional in the field I was once maried to a woman who was diagnosed with "Borderline Personality Disorder". She was convinced that I was seeing a former girlfriend; her evidence for this was; that the other woman had moved back to our town, and the lyrics to the Leonard Cohen song "Famous Blue Raincoat" which she was convinced about me (nothing in the song actually resembled me other than a passing reference) and asked me seriously if I had ever met Cohen and related my past to him. The leaps of thought that characterize the 9/11 movement, and in particular, the thoughts expressed on LetsRoll, are deeply reminiscent of my ex-wife.

24th December 2011, 09:07 AM	#73
Scott Sommers Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,643	Originally Posted by jaydeehess While I am far from a professional in the field I was once maried to a woman who was diagnosed with "Borderline Personality Disorder". She was convinced that I was seeing a former girlfriend; her evidence for this was; that the other woman had moved back to our town, and the lyrics to the Leonard Cohen song "Famous Blue Raincoat" which she was convinced about me (nothing in the song actually resembled me other than a passing reference) and asked me seriously if I had ever met Cohen and related my past to him. The leaps of thought that characterize the 9/11 movement, and in particular, the thoughts expressed on LetsRoll, are deeply reminiscent of my ex-wife. I can't speak about the mental health of people in the Truth Movement. In something related though, I can and have addressed their ability to assemble facts into arguments. They don't follow what you expect from adults. It's like watching adolescent kids argue. This whole Let's Roll-thing is structured like a "...but what if it was" type argument. As in, "I know the photograph is real and those things are the torn edges of the outside of the building...but what if they were pipes connected to smoke generators? What then?" There's no sense at all that data has to be real and connected with other aspects of the thing under observation. There's no sense at all that explanations have to have anything to do with the data. There's no understanding that the relationship between physical things can be tested with mathematics. Or that just putting numbers next to some words might not be the right use of mathematics. I'm going to quote myself from an earlier post in which I reflected on comments from Oystein that Truthers make vague statements about how things should and shouldn't have looked on 9/11 without any clear indication of what they mean, Originally Posted by Scott Sommers Let me evaluate this. From a Piagetian point of view, this lack of a systematic measurement system is characteristic of the Piaget's 3rd stage of cognitive development concrete operational stage. A knowledge of order and logic can be demonstrated, but - as the Great Wiki says - our person can "only solve problems that apply to actual (concrete) objects or events, and not abstract concepts or hypothetical tasks." One of the manifestations of this is a failure to take into account standardization of measurement because the importance of comparison - being an abstract concept - is not understood. The next stage, formal operations, is often described as characteristic of cognitive development beginning with the second decade of life. However, it's now clear that many people never reach this stage and for the many who do reach it, formal operations are observed in only a limited range of cognitive operations. I have often thought of science as a codified formal operations applied to the physical world. That Truthers go about 'measuring' things without any system that would allow comparison points to their failure in performing formal operations. In a way, it's a kind of folk science of the events of 9/11. Without any way to produce data that's comparable either with scientific data or with the data of other Truther so-called 'scientists', it appears upon a systematic inspection to be just a mass of statements connected by a rhetoric. I'm sure that the origin of this confusion is, for some Truthers, found in mental illness. Some of them don't seem to have that excuse. some seem to be really, really stupid. There's a reason why David Lynch doesn't say anything anymore about 9/11 conspiracy and Charlie Sheen does. And I suspect it's just a really clear matter of being stupid.
	__________________ for the original publication Who Still Believes in 9/11 Conspiracies? for Google Books Becoming Taiwan: From Colonialism to Democracy Last edited by Scott Sommers; 24th December 2011 at 09:12 AM.

24th December 2011, 09:20 AM	#74
jaydeehess Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: I beedunk 40 miles from the border Posts: 10,826	Quote: That Truthers go about 'measuring' things without any system that would allow comparison points to their failure in performing formal operations. In a way, it's a kind of folk science of the events of 9/11. Without any way to produce data that's comparable either with scientific data or with the data of other Truther so-called 'scientists', it appears upon a systematic inspection to be just a mass of statements connected by a rhetoric. Spot on, it describes the entire 9/11 conspiracy mem to a "T". Thanks you for a new sig.

24th December 2011, 01:28 PM	#75
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660	Originally Posted by jaydeehess While I am far from a professional in the field I was once maried to a woman who was diagnosed with "Borderline Personality Disorder". She was convinced that I was seeing a former girlfriend; her evidence for this was; that the other woman had moved back to our town, and the lyrics to the Leonard Cohen song "Famous Blue Raincoat" which she was convinced about me (nothing in the song actually resembled me other than a passing reference) and asked me seriously if I had ever met Cohen and related my past to him. The leaps of thought that characterize the 9/11 movement, and in particular, the thoughts expressed on LetsRoll, are deeply reminiscent of my ex-wife. Many CT exhibit classic elements of mental disorder (and I mean that in a very clinical way). Paranoia, the government is out to get me, the government is trying to kill me, the government is spying on me, the government is poisoning me, mind control, medical experiments, trackers, etc...
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660