Debunking Noah, and I need some help - Page 2

Andrew Wiggin · 26th December 2011, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

Been there, tried that.

Apparently the ark was a TARDIS.

Lukraak_Sisser · 26th December 2011, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

Apparently the ark was a TARDIS.

Hmmm, how old was the Doctor again? And how old did the bible say Noah would be??

Soapy Sam · 26th December 2011, 03:38 AM

On a typical 9" kid's globe of the Earth, a man's thumb will cover all of the world as known to the Sumerians. Press moderately hard and you will leave an indentation maybe 1 millimetre deep.

Now spit on it.

Global flood.

Yes, there really were large floods following the younger Dryas glaciation. Yes, humans must have witnessed some of them. Yes, they probably told stories around campfires about how tough it were back in their day and how young people of today don't believe it.

Your mother is daft. That's her choice. Leave her alone.

bluesjnr · 26th December 2011, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Your mother is daft. That's her choice. Leave her alone.

Beautifully put and I would like to second this sentiment, with all respect to your mother.

catsmate1 · 26th December 2011, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by JudeBrando

Some theorize that the pre-flood environment may have been greatly different than ours is today. What if the earth was essentially surrounded by an atmosphere of greater water vapor and greater atmospheric pressure, essentially amounting to something like a hyperbaric chamber and which greatly shielded the earth from uv rays?

Utter and complete rubbish. Try and learn some real science, starting with physics and geology, rather than making up nonsense to support your beliefs.
Oh wait, that's the usual behaviour of god botherers.

Originally Posted by JudeBrando

Longer, healthier lifespans, larger creatures and a more uniform global climate with lush vegetation at the poles (like we've found) could be possible.

Maybe in god botherer fairyland not in the real world.

Originally Posted by JudeBrando

I don't know. They don't know. And despite what you think, you most certainly do not know either.

You and other xianity sufferers may not know but those with knowledge of science do know this "theory" of yours is simply nonsense.

Originally Posted by JudeBrando

"Also take with you every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up. It shall serve as food for you and for them."

Now go and calculate how much food would be needed. Or are you going to resort to magic again?

Originally Posted by JudeBrando

"Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate, and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth."

Still insufficient.

Originally Posted by JudeBrando

Funny how certain people are about what they know.

Not as funny as people making up nonsense to try and support their beliefs.

catsmate1 · 26th December 2011, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by bikerdruid

wow...another one....
hyperbaric chamber?

jude, dude...where do you get this stuff?

The same place he gets his other "facts", individuals and groups with an agenda to push and no reluctance to lie and distort in doing so.

Mick Houlahan · 26th December 2011, 06:23 AM

Brian dunning did a Skeptoid episode on the engineering problems associated with building an impossibly huge boat. http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4279

Leumas · 26th December 2011, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Mick Houlahan

Brian dunning did a Skeptoid episode on the engineering problems associated with building an impossibly huge boat. http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4279

Nice article.....I loved the last paragraph because it says in a more eloquent way what I tried to say here:

Originally Posted by Leumas

Of course why would god even bother to tell Noah to do all that if he was going to help in the first place is beyond their comprehension too. Why would god not just click his fingers and kill who needs to be killed and leave out all that devastation of animals and plants? Why not just THINK about it and it is all done and over with without having to depend on Noah.

Quote:

There's another elephant in the room, too, that is necessary to address. Many of the problems with the Noah story are often answered, by those who regard it as a literal true account, with a special pleading. A special pleading is when any question is answered with "It was done by a higher power that you and I are not qualified to understand or question." Obviously, every point that science might raise regarding the Noah story can be fully answered with a special pleading. Superman, Underdog, and The Jetsons can shown to be literal true accounts if we allow special pleadings to be admissable. If the special pleading of divine intervention did indeed come into play during the Great Flood, then it was the most flagrant Rube Goldberg solution I've ever heard of. If divine intervention was needed to give Noah knowledge of how to build the Ark, or to provide the wood for its construction; then why not just provide an already-completed ark? Why bring the animals on board to be fed for a year or more, when divine intervention could have provided them an island? For that matter, why have the entire flood at all, when divine intervention could have simply struck down the evil humans with a plague? Why construct this most elaborate of all disaster and survival scenarios, some part of which was dependent on divine intervention; when divine intervention could have easily made the entire ordeal unnecessary? Special pleadings dismiss the true sciences that have allowed us to build real ships and conquer the world. Looking at the reality of what's possible and how things are done is always more interesting than imagining what's possible when anything is possible.

Gawdzilla · 26th December 2011, 07:35 AM

http://www.oyangudi.com/images/TimelineOfTheBible.jpg

Notice that the prophets overlapped greatly? And yet there is nothing in the babble about them ever interacting?

Mudcat · 26th December 2011, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Hmmm, how old was the Doctor again? And how old did the bible say Noah would be??

If I recall right, the doc is 900 years old. That says something when even if you had an advanced time machine like the TARDIS that the entire story could still not happen.

Blue Mountain · 26th December 2011, 08:13 AM

I'm a bit late to this thread, but if you want to make progress on altering your mother's belief systems I heartily recommend you download The Debunking Handbook here [PDF]. It's very brief (only 6 pages) but contains a wealth of useful information distilled from the last couple of decades of research on cognitive processes. It's written in the context of debunking myths propagated by global warming deniers, but the application is universal to myths of all sorts.

Bottom line: changing someone's dearly held beliefs is tough.

Originally Posted by The Debunking Handbook

Debunking myths is problematic. Unless great care is taken, any effort to debunk misinformation can inadvertently reinforce the very myths one seeks to correct. To avoid these “backfire effects”, an effective debunking requires three major elements. First, the refutation must focus on core facts rather than the myth to avoid the misinformation becoming more familiar. Second, any mention of a myth should be preceded by explicit warnings to notify the reader that the upcoming information is false. Finally, the refutation should include an alternative explanation that accounts for important qualities in the original misinformation.

The handbook goes on to discuss problems inherent in trying to debunk myths:

The Familiarity Backfire Effect - Repeating the myth,even in the context of debunking it, reinforces the myth
The Overkill Backfire Effect - There is such a thing as Too Much Information
The Worldview Backfire Effect - People just don't like hearing things that are at odds with their worldview

The handbook goes on to give some additional pointers on how to construct an effective debunking.

I wish you all the best. I've been there myself, and it's not a time of my life that I like to think about today.

NoahFence · 26th December 2011, 08:30 AM

I thought you were talking about me....

CORed · 26th December 2011, 08:36 AM

The whole Noah's ark story is self-debunking:

It is simply impossible to build a wooden boat big enough to hold that many animals, as well as food for all of those animals, nor is there any way for a group as small as Noah's family (7 or 8 people, IIRC) to feed, dispose of the waste, and otherwise care for that many animals.

The story raises many other questions, even if we try to hand-wave away (or invoke miracles to explain) the basic logistical problems.

How did Noah get animals native to North America, South America, Australia, and assorted islands onto the ark? How did they get back there after the flood?

That's just for starters. The story might have been believable to people who knew only the species of animals in their immediate neighborhood, but to anybody who knows how big the world is, and how diverse the life is on it, and isn't blinded by the need to believe that everything in the bible is true, the Noah's ark story doesn't pass the laugh test.

Gawdzilla · 26th December 2011, 08:41 AM

I love it how every person on the planet was evil except for Noah and his lot. I ask believers if they really think that some monk in Tibet was evil. They reply that the ones that weren't were taken into Heaven by God. I then remind them that you can't get into Heaven unless you believe in God in advance. They then get grumpy.

David Swidler · 26th December 2011, 08:50 AM

Mudcat, tell your Mom this Orthodox Rabbi gives her permission not to understand the flood narrative as history.

EventHorizon · 26th December 2011, 08:57 AM

You guys are all going about this the wrong way. You've got to fight fire with fire. Mudcat needs to act as crazy as his mother; pretend another work of fiction is the absolute truth. Maybe she'll see the error of her ways. If not, it's sure to be more entertaining.

MudMom: "Isn't it wonderful how Noah saved all the animals on his boat an rode out the flood to preserve life on this planet?"

Mudcat: "Isn't it wonderful how Harry Potter, with the help of Ron and Hermione and with the guidance of Dumbledore, was able to destroy all of Voldemort's horcruxes before taking on and defeating the Dark Lord himself to prevent the spread of evil on this planet?"

Leumas · 26th December 2011, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

I love it how every person on the planet was evil except for Noah and his lot. I ask believers if they really think that some monk in Tibet was evil. They reply that the ones that weren't were taken into Heaven by God. I then remind them that you can't get into Heaven unless you believe in God in advance. They then get grumpy.

I always slap my forehead when they say stuff like this and ask them

Would it not have been a lot easier for god to have taken into heaven all the bad ones and be done instead of having to go through all that drama of killing innocent children and suckling infants and unborn babies as well as animals that had nothing to do with anything.?

dafydd · 26th December 2011, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

If I recall right, the doc is 900 years old. That says something when even if you had an advanced time machine like the TARDIS that the entire story could still not happen.

A mere beginner. Doctor Who is much older.

yodaluver28 · 26th December 2011, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

My mom is getting deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole with religion and has become positively obsessed with the book of Genesis, believing every word of it to be true. Normally I wouldn't be concerned with it except that she keeps on trying to force that crap on me.

'Why me?' is a huge mystery here. I'm not her only child, I am the oldest of three. None of my siblings are any more religious I am, in fact she about made herself unwelcome at my sister's house for trying to press this crap onto my niece and nephew. My brother made it clear he didn't want anything more to do with religion either.

I've done warned her if she didn't curb her enthusiasm I would take the wind out of her sails. Needless to say she didn't listen. Oh well, I did warn her... she has no one to blame but herself.

Right now she is obsessed with the story of Noah. Here is what I have so far in my dismantling of the story:
Which is about as far as I got, but I need more. So [damsel in distress mode]Help me JREFF, your my only hope![/damsel in distress mode]

"Dismantling" or debunking the story is pointless. You're mother obviously feels the need to have faith in something and this is what she's chosen. I doubt it was chosen based on it's historical or scientific accuracy in the first place so challenging those won't change anything. You could point out that the basic story is a common myth/allegory used around the world but I wouldn't go any further than that.

Some people need faith, if your mother feels that way her decision should be respected that but you can make it abundantly clear that proselytizing to you and yours will not be tolerated.

truethat · 26th December 2011, 09:21 AM

You say "why me" well probably because you get into it with her. If someone tried to tell you that the Ouija board really and truly worked would you spend any energy arguing or just walk away?

Debating a believer always validates the idea in their mind. I try not to.

David Swidler · 26th December 2011, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

Mudcat, tell your Mom this Orthodox Rabbi gives her permission not to understand the flood narrative as history.

I want to elaborate on this. You might want to suggest she consider what the story is trying to tell her as opposed to whether it happened the way the text tells it. The historicity of Genesis narrative was never the point. More recent believers were simply never taught that.

Aridas · 26th December 2011, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Ravenplucker

Here's a few off the top of my head.

A worldwide flood would have altered salinity levels, killing off all sorts of aquatic life and generally messing with the ocean ecosystem.

Where did all the water go after the flood? If it simply evaporated off, it would have to go somewhere. Not to mention that after it evaporated, the whole world would have been covered in salt. How on earth that's going to sustain a chain of eucalyptus trees to get koalas to Australia is beyond me.

No modern animals being fossilised at the lowest levels of strata.

What on earth did all the herbivores eat? There would have been no surviving plant life, begging the question of how they survived to their modern day locations.

Also, what on earth did the carnivores eat? The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that they carried an enormous sack of miraculously preserved meat.

/braindump

To note, this does just scratch the surface of things that require miracles to reconcile, but thank you.

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

Beautifully put and I would like to second this sentiment, with all respect to your mother.

I would agree, unless they bring it up, in the first place.

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

I love it how every person on the planet was evil except for Noah and his lot. I ask believers if they really think that some monk in Tibet was evil. They reply that the ones that weren't were taken into Heaven by God. I then remind them that you can't get into Heaven unless you believe in God in advance. They then get grumpy.

There are workarounds, like... "people who never heard the Word of God will be judged on their actions." This is pretty much as much unsupported bull as "All dead babies go to heaven," but hey, pleasant nonsense.

Originally Posted by Brian-M

How does she reconcile Genesis 1 with Genesis 2?

Probably the standard "had made" which doesn't demand to be interpreted in order for Genesis 2.

dafydd · 26th December 2011, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

This is pretty much as much unsupported bull as "All dead babies go to heaven," but hey, pleasant nonsense.

They used to go to Limbo but The Catholic Church abolished that a few years ago. I wonder If the Pope has informed god yet?

Lowpro · 26th December 2011, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

I'm not familiar with creationist fantards... I take it he's an established figure in their camp?

Safartis is one of AiG's "scientists" whom they use for their appeals to authority. The guy is a serial liar, and when he's caught he just berates whoever is challenging him, he doesn't even try to win with data.

He's the friggin' worst.

dafydd · 26th December 2011, 09:48 AM

What about Noah's wife, Joan Of Arc?

David Swidler · 26th December 2011, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

What about Noah's wife, Joan Of Arc?

Can you trust the answer? There's always someone with a stake in it.

tsig · 26th December 2011, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

Right now I am debunking the parcGod out of the global flood model, if I could have some help with the local flood model (which she'll probably use to worm out of critically thinking about what she's trying to push onto her offspring) that would be fantastic. Thanks in advance.

Has she undergone any events that might have triggered this sudden fervor?

Aridas · 26th December 2011, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

They used to go to Limbo but The Catholic Church abolished that a few years ago. I wonder If the Pope has informed god yet?

It's far from solely a Catholic belief. An old fundamentalist Christian friend of mine told me, with great conviction, that her Bible study had concluded, based nearly solely on their view of Jesus, that Jesus wouldn't let babies and small children go to hell, so he takes them to heaven. I pointed out a few ways how this wasn't a historical or Biblical belief, but... she actively admitted to setting faith above reason.

kedo1981 · 26th December 2011, 11:41 AM

You’ll not be able to use facts to change her mind.
I would just tell her to shut with this bible thumper crazy crap or I’ll lock you away in nursing home ASAP.

Mudcat · 26th December 2011, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by tsig

Has she undergone any events that might have triggered this sudden fervor?

3 years back, almost 4 years, her husband had a seizure while driving his truck and got into a lethal accident with a tree. He was dead before the neighbors even got a chance to call for help, but they at least managed to pull him out before the truck caught on fire (which is something I guess).

So in a word: Desperation.

Before this she wasn't any more religious than I am.

Cainkane1 · 26th December 2011, 12:01 PM

She'll just go to answersingenesis and drop that creationist nonsense on you. You may have to accept her the way she is.

dafydd · 26th December 2011, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

3 years back, almost 4 years, her husband had a seizure while driving his truck and got into a lethal accident with a tree. He was dead before the neighbors even got a chance to call for help, but they at least managed to pull him out before the truck caught on fire (which is something I guess).

So in a word: Desperation.

Before this she wasn't any more religious than I am.

It takes different people in different ways. When my wife died of liver cancer eight years ago my atheism became even more steadfast.

Hubert Cumberdale · 26th December 2011, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

What about Noah's wife, Joan Of Arc?

A burning question...

Mudcat · 26th December 2011, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

She'll just go to answersingenesis and drop that creationist nonsense on you.

I poked around in that site, apart from it's laughable grip on anything resembling reality it has a Christian slant which is enough to ensure that she won't try it. She's an orthodox Jew, not a messianic Jew (known as 'Jews for Jesus') and avoids any site like it.

Originally Posted by Cainkane

You may have to accept her the way she is.

That would be my first reaction, I'm perfectly capable putting aside differences of faith (my extended family has people in just about every version of Christianity in America, and I still get along with them), my problem is what she does with it.

Originally Posted by dafydd

It takes different people in different ways.

I'm no stranger to death myself, every friend I have known in my childhood are all dead. Had a fair few brushes with death as well, and I have never sought 'comfort' in Yahweh or any other mythological figure.

George152 · 26th December 2011, 12:16 PM

The oldest (and largest) boat is the Solar Barque of Cheops.
Try getting one of every kind into it let alone the number the bable claims.
Gilgamesh should be ashamed that his yarn got taken over !

dafydd · 26th December 2011, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale

A burning question...

Our local skating club put on a show, 'Joan Of Arc On Ice'' It wasn't a success.

David Swidler · 26th December 2011, 12:33 PM

Burned at the skate?

Gawdzilla · 26th December 2011, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Our local skating club put on a show, 'Joan Of Arc On Ice'' It wasn't a success.

Hey, don't shoot the Messenger.

Lowpro · 26th December 2011, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

I poked around in that site, apart from it's laughable grip on anything resembling reality it has a Christian slant which is enough to ensure that she won't try it. She's an orthodox Jew, not a messianic Jew (known as 'Jews for Jesus') and avoids any site like it.

AiG is Ken Ham's website, and with all the hate I have for Safartis, Ken Ham is actually an evil bastard who has ruined lives.

Trakar · 26th December 2011, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

I want to elaborate on this. You might want to suggest she consider what the story is trying to tell her as opposed to whether it happened the way the text tells it. The historicity of Genesis narrative was never the point. More recent believers were simply never taught that.

Amen

26th December 2011, 02:35 AM	#41
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for its dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 2,914	Originally Posted by Mudcat Been there, tried that. Apparently the ark was a TARDIS.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

26th December 2011, 03:38 AM	#43
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	On a typical 9" kid's globe of the Earth, a man's thumb will cover all of the world as known to the Sumerians. Press moderately hard and you will leave an indentation maybe 1 millimetre deep. Now spit on it. Global flood. Yes, there really were large floods following the younger Dryas glaciation. Yes, humans must have witnessed some of them. Yes, they probably told stories around campfires about how tough it were back in their day and how young people of today don't believe it. Your mother is daft. That's her choice. Leave her alone.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

26th December 2011, 05:11 AM	#44
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Not where I should be. Posts: 2,167	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam Your mother is daft. That's her choice. Leave her alone. Beautifully put and I would like to second this sentiment, with all respect to your mother.
	__________________ A baby smoking? That's child abuse - UncaYimmy Your avatar really cracked me up the first hundred or so times I saw it...Now, it gets on my nerves.. - Skeptical Greg

26th December 2011, 07:31 AM	#48
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	Originally Posted by Mick Houlahan Brian dunning did a Skeptoid episode on the engineering problems associated with building an impossibly huge boat. http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4279 Nice article.....I loved the last paragraph because it says in a more eloquent way what I tried to say here: Originally Posted by Leumas Of course why would god even bother to tell Noah to do all that if he was going to help in the first place is beyond their comprehension too. Why would god not just click his fingers and kill who needs to be killed and leave out all that devastation of animals and plants? Why not just THINK about it and it is all done and over with without having to depend on Noah. Quote: There's another elephant in the room, too, that is necessary to address. Many of the problems with the Noah story are often answered, by those who regard it as a literal true account, with a special pleading. A special pleading is when any question is answered with "It was done by a higher power that you and I are not qualified to understand or question." Obviously, every point that science might raise regarding the Noah story can be fully answered with a special pleading. Superman, Underdog, and The Jetsons can shown to be literal true accounts if we allow special pleadings to be admissable. If the special pleading of divine intervention did indeed come into play during the Great Flood, then it was the most flagrant Rube Goldberg solution I've ever heard of. If divine intervention was needed to give Noah knowledge of how to build the Ark, or to provide the wood for its construction; then why not just provide an already-completed ark? Why bring the animals on board to be fed for a year or more, when divine intervention could have provided them an island? For that matter, why have the entire flood at all, when divine intervention could have simply struck down the evil humans with a plague? Why construct this most elaborate of all disaster and survival scenarios, some part of which was dependent on divine intervention; when divine intervention could have easily made the entire ordeal unnecessary? Special pleadings dismiss the true sciences that have allowed us to build real ships and conquer the world. Looking at the reality of what's possible and how things are done is always more interesting than imagining what's possible when anything is possible.
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	__________________ "I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't." - Jules Renard "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." - Thomas Jefferson

26th December 2011, 07:35 AM	#49
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,500	http://www.oyangudi.com/images/TimelineOfTheBible.jpg Notice that the prophets overlapped greatly? And yet there is nothing in the babble about them ever interacting?
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

26th December 2011, 02:51 AM	#42
Lukraak_Sisser Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,619	Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin Apparently the ark was a TARDIS. Hmmm, how old was the Doctor again? And how old did the bible say Noah would be??

26th December 2011, 05:19 AM	#45
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,127	Originally Posted by JudeBrando Some theorize that the pre-flood environment may have been greatly different than ours is today. What if the earth was essentially surrounded by an atmosphere of greater water vapor and greater atmospheric pressure, essentially amounting to something like a hyperbaric chamber and which greatly shielded the earth from uv rays? Utter and complete rubbish. Try and learn some real science, starting with physics and geology, rather than making up nonsense to support your beliefs. Oh wait, that's the usual behaviour of god botherers. Originally Posted by JudeBrando Longer, healthier lifespans, larger creatures and a more uniform global climate with lush vegetation at the poles (like we've found) could be possible. Maybe in god botherer fairyland not in the real world. Originally Posted by JudeBrando I don't know. They don't know. And despite what you think, you most certainly do not know either. You and other xianity sufferers may not know but those with knowledge of science do know this "theory" of yours is simply nonsense. Originally Posted by JudeBrando "Also take with you every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up. It shall serve as food for you and for them." Now go and calculate how much food would be needed. Or are you going to resort to magic again? Originally Posted by JudeBrando "Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate, and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth." Still insufficient. Originally Posted by JudeBrando Funny how certain people are about what they know. Not as funny as people making up nonsense to try and support their beliefs.

26th December 2011, 05:21 AM	#46
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,127	Originally Posted by bikerdruid wow...another one.... hyperbaric chamber? jude, dude...where do you get this stuff? The same place he gets his other "facts", individuals and groups with an agenda to push and no reluctance to lie and distort in doing so.

26th December 2011, 06:23 AM	#47
Mick Houlahan Thinker Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Lion's Pride Inn, Goldshire Posts: 215	Brian dunning did a Skeptoid episode on the engineering problems associated with building an impossibly huge boat. http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4279

26th December 2011, 07:40 AM	#50
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,685	Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser Hmmm, how old was the Doctor again? And how old did the bible say Noah would be?? If I recall right, the doc is 900 years old. That says something when even if you had an advanced time machine like the TARDIS that the entire story could still not happen.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven. Last edited by Mudcat; 26th December 2011 at 07:58 AM.

26th December 2011, 08:13 AM	#51
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 3,637	I'm a bit late to this thread, but if you want to make progress on altering your mother's belief systems I heartily recommend you download The Debunking Handbook here [PDF]. It's very brief (only 6 pages) but contains a wealth of useful information distilled from the last couple of decades of research on cognitive processes. It's written in the context of debunking myths propagated by global warming deniers, but the application is universal to myths of all sorts. Bottom line: changing someone's dearly held beliefs is tough. Originally Posted by The Debunking Handbook Debunking myths is problematic. Unless great care is taken, any effort to debunk misinformation can inadvertently reinforce the very myths one seeks to correct. To avoid these “backfire effects”, an effective debunking requires three major elements. First, the refutation must focus on core facts rather than the myth to avoid the misinformation becoming more familiar. Second, any mention of a myth should be preceded by explicit warnings to notify the reader that the upcoming information is false. Finally, the refutation should include an alternative explanation that accounts for important qualities in the original misinformation. The handbook goes on to discuss problems inherent in trying to debunk myths: The Familiarity Backfire Effect - Repeating the myth,even in the context of debunking it, reinforces the myth The Overkill Backfire Effect - There is such a thing as Too Much Information The Worldview Backfire Effect - People just don't like hearing things that are at odds with their worldview The handbook goes on to give some additional pointers on how to construct an effective debunking. I wish you all the best. I've been there myself, and it's not a time of my life that I like to think about today.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

26th December 2011, 08:30 AM	#52
NoahFence Psycho Kitty Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Patriot Nation Posts: 9,322	I thought you were talking about me....
	__________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake. -Henry David Thoreau

26th December 2011, 08:36 AM	#53
CORed Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,293	The whole Noah's ark story is self-debunking: It is simply impossible to build a wooden boat big enough to hold that many animals, as well as food for all of those animals, nor is there any way for a group as small as Noah's family (7 or 8 people, IIRC) to feed, dispose of the waste, and otherwise care for that many animals. The story raises many other questions, even if we try to hand-wave away (or invoke miracles to explain) the basic logistical problems. How did Noah get animals native to North America, South America, Australia, and assorted islands onto the ark? How did they get back there after the flood? That's just for starters. The story might have been believable to people who knew only the species of animals in their immediate neighborhood, but to anybody who knows how big the world is, and how diverse the life is on it, and isn't blinded by the need to believe that everything in the bible is true, the Noah's ark story doesn't pass the laugh test.
CORed Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,293

26th December 2011, 08:41 AM	#54
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,500	I love it how every person on the planet was evil except for Noah and his lot. I ask believers if they really think that some monk in Tibet was evil. They reply that the ones that weren't were taken into Heaven by God. I then remind them that you can't get into Heaven unless you believe in God in advance. They then get grumpy.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

26th December 2011, 08:50 AM	#55
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Mudcat, tell your Mom this Orthodox Rabbi gives her permission not to understand the flood narrative as history.
	__________________ www.mightierthanthepen.wordpress.com

26th December 2011, 08:57 AM	#56
EventHorizon Atheist Tergiversator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,846	You guys are all going about this the wrong way. You've got to fight fire with fire. Mudcat needs to act as crazy as his mother; pretend another work of fiction is the absolute truth. Maybe she'll see the error of her ways. If not, it's sure to be more entertaining. MudMom: "Isn't it wonderful how Noah saved all the animals on his boat an rode out the flood to preserve life on this planet?" Mudcat: "Isn't it wonderful how Harry Potter, with the help of Ron and Hermione and with the guidance of Dumbledore, was able to destroy all of Voldemort's horcruxes before taking on and defeating the Dark Lord himself to prevent the spread of evil on this planet?"
	__________________ "One of the hardest parts of being an active skeptic - of anything - is knowing when to cut your losses, and then doing so." -Phil Plait Last edited by EventHorizon; 26th December 2011 at 08:59 AM.

26th December 2011, 09:00 AM	#57
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla I love it how every person on the planet was evil except for Noah and his lot. I ask believers if they really think that some monk in Tibet was evil. They reply that the ones that weren't were taken into Heaven by God. I then remind them that you can't get into Heaven unless you believe in God in advance. They then get grumpy. I always slap my forehead when they say stuff like this and ask them Would it not have been a lot easier for god to have taken into heaven all the bad ones and be done instead of having to go through all that drama of killing innocent children and suckling infants and unborn babies as well as animals that had nothing to do with anything.?
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	__________________ "I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't." - Jules Renard "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." - Thomas Jefferson

26th December 2011, 09:05 AM	#58
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,476	Originally Posted by Mudcat If I recall right, the doc is 900 years old. That says something when even if you had an advanced time machine like the TARDIS that the entire story could still not happen. A mere beginner. Doctor Who is much older.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

26th December 2011, 09:05 AM	#59
yodaluver28 Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 323	Originally Posted by Mudcat My mom is getting deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole with religion and has become positively obsessed with the book of Genesis, believing every word of it to be true. Normally I wouldn't be concerned with it except that she keeps on trying to force that crap on me. 'Why me?' is a huge mystery here. I'm not her only child, I am the oldest of three. None of my siblings are any more religious I am, in fact she about made herself unwelcome at my sister's house for trying to press this crap onto my niece and nephew. My brother made it clear he didn't want anything more to do with religion either. I've done warned her if she didn't curb her enthusiasm I would take the wind out of her sails. Needless to say she didn't listen. Oh well, I did warn her... she has no one to blame but herself. Right now she is obsessed with the story of Noah. Here is what I have so far in my dismantling of the story: Which is about as far as I got, but I need more. So [damsel in distress mode]Help me JREFF, your my only hope![/damsel in distress mode] "Dismantling" or debunking the story is pointless. You're mother obviously feels the need to have faith in something and this is what she's chosen. I doubt it was chosen based on it's historical or scientific accuracy in the first place so challenging those won't change anything. You could point out that the basic story is a common myth/allegory used around the world but I wouldn't go any further than that. Some people need faith, if your mother feels that way her decision should be respected that but you can make it abundantly clear that proselytizing to you and yours will not be tolerated.
	__________________ Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. We must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind-Jedi Master Yoda.

26th December 2011, 09:21 AM	#60
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,628	You say "why me" well probably because you get into it with her. If someone tried to tell you that the Ouija board really and truly worked would you spend any energy arguing or just walk away? Debating a believer always validates the idea in their mind. I try not to.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,628	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

26th December 2011, 09:32 AM	#61
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Originally Posted by David Swidler Mudcat, tell your Mom this Orthodox Rabbi gives her permission not to understand the flood narrative as history. I want to elaborate on this. You might want to suggest she consider what the story is trying to tell her as opposed to whether it happened the way the text tells it. The historicity of Genesis narrative was never the point. More recent believers were simply never taught that.
	__________________ www.mightierthanthepen.wordpress.com

26th December 2011, 09:35 AM	#62
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,107	Originally Posted by Ravenplucker Here's a few off the top of my head. A worldwide flood would have altered salinity levels, killing off all sorts of aquatic life and generally messing with the ocean ecosystem. Where did all the water go after the flood? If it simply evaporated off, it would have to go somewhere. Not to mention that after it evaporated, the whole world would have been covered in salt. How on earth that's going to sustain a chain of eucalyptus trees to get koalas to Australia is beyond me. No modern animals being fossilised at the lowest levels of strata. What on earth did all the herbivores eat? There would have been no surviving plant life, begging the question of how they survived to their modern day locations. Also, what on earth did the carnivores eat? The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that they carried an enormous sack of miraculously preserved meat. /braindump To note, this does just scratch the surface of things that require miracles to reconcile, but thank you. Originally Posted by bluesjnr Beautifully put and I would like to second this sentiment, with all respect to your mother. I would agree, unless they bring it up, in the first place. Originally Posted by Gawdzilla I love it how every person on the planet was evil except for Noah and his lot. I ask believers if they really think that some monk in Tibet was evil. They reply that the ones that weren't were taken into Heaven by God. I then remind them that you can't get into Heaven unless you believe in God in advance. They then get grumpy. There are workarounds, like... "people who never heard the Word of God will be judged on their actions." This is pretty much as much unsupported bull as "All dead babies go to heaven," but hey, pleasant nonsense. Originally Posted by Brian-M How does she reconcile Genesis 1 with Genesis 2? Probably the standard "had made" which doesn't demand to be interpreted in order for Genesis 2.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

26th December 2011, 09:39 AM	#63
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,476	Originally Posted by Aridas This is pretty much as much unsupported bull as "All dead babies go to heaven," but hey, pleasant nonsense. They used to go to Limbo but The Catholic Church abolished that a few years ago. I wonder If the Pope has informed god yet?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

26th December 2011, 09:46 AM	#64
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,523	Originally Posted by Mudcat I'm not familiar with creationist fantards... I take it he's an established figure in their camp? Safartis is one of AiG's "scientists" whom they use for their appeals to authority. The guy is a serial liar, and when he's caught he just berates whoever is challenging him, he doesn't even try to win with data. He's the friggin' worst.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

26th December 2011, 09:48 AM	#65
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,476	What about Noah's wife, Joan Of Arc?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

26th December 2011, 09:53 AM	#66
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Originally Posted by dafydd What about Noah's wife, Joan Of Arc? Can you trust the answer? There's always someone with a stake in it.
	__________________ www.mightierthanthepen.wordpress.com

26th December 2011, 10:14 AM	#67
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,778	Originally Posted by Mudcat Right now I am debunking the parcGod out of the global flood model, if I could have some help with the local flood model (which she'll probably use to worm out of critically thinking about what she's trying to push onto her offspring) that would be fantastic. Thanks in advance. Has she undergone any events that might have triggered this sudden fervor?

26th December 2011, 11:01 AM	#68
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,107	Originally Posted by dafydd They used to go to Limbo but The Catholic Church abolished that a few years ago. I wonder If the Pope has informed god yet? It's far from solely a Catholic belief. An old fundamentalist Christian friend of mine told me, with great conviction, that her Bible study had concluded, based nearly solely on their view of Jesus, that Jesus wouldn't let babies and small children go to hell, so he takes them to heaven. I pointed out a few ways how this wasn't a historical or Biblical belief, but... she actively admitted to setting faith above reason.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

26th December 2011, 11:41 AM	#69
kedo1981 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: ohio Posts: 2,080	You’ll not be able to use facts to change her mind. I would just tell her to shut with this bible thumper crazy crap or I’ll lock you away in nursing home ASAP.
	__________________ "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21) I readily admit I don’t know enough to say for sure that there is no God. But I do know enough so say that anyone who claims to know the mind and will of a being such as God is a liar. I have no problem with Jesus, but his fan club sucks!

26th December 2011, 11:51 AM	#70
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,685	Originally Posted by tsig Has she undergone any events that might have triggered this sudden fervor? 3 years back, almost 4 years, her husband had a seizure while driving his truck and got into a lethal accident with a tree. He was dead before the neighbors even got a chance to call for help, but they at least managed to pull him out before the truck caught on fire (which is something I guess). So in a word: Desperation. Before this she wasn't any more religious than I am.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

26th December 2011, 12:01 PM	#71
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	She'll just go to answersingenesis and drop that creationist nonsense on you. You may have to accept her the way she is.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

26th December 2011, 12:02 PM	#72
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,476	Originally Posted by Mudcat 3 years back, almost 4 years, her husband had a seizure while driving his truck and got into a lethal accident with a tree. He was dead before the neighbors even got a chance to call for help, but they at least managed to pull him out before the truck caught on fire (which is something I guess). So in a word: Desperation. Before this she wasn't any more religious than I am. It takes different people in different ways. When my wife died of liver cancer eight years ago my atheism became even more steadfast.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

26th December 2011, 12:09 PM	#73
Hubert Cumberdale Muse Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 555	Originally Posted by dafydd What about Noah's wife, Joan Of Arc? A burning question...
Hubert Cumberdale Muse Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 555

26th December 2011, 12:16 PM	#74
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,685	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 She'll just go to answersingenesis and drop that creationist nonsense on you. I poked around in that site, apart from it's laughable grip on anything resembling reality it has a Christian slant which is enough to ensure that she won't try it. She's an orthodox Jew, not a messianic Jew (known as 'Jews for Jesus') and avoids any site like it. Originally Posted by Cainkane You may have to accept her the way she is. That would be my first reaction, I'm perfectly capable putting aside differences of faith (my extended family has people in just about every version of Christianity in America, and I still get along with them), my problem is what she does with it. Originally Posted by dafydd It takes different people in different ways. I'm no stranger to death myself, every friend I have known in my childhood are all dead. Had a fair few brushes with death as well, and I have never sought 'comfort' in Yahweh or any other mythological figure.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

26th December 2011, 12:16 PM	#75
George152 Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hamilton New Zealand Posts: 2,043	The oldest (and largest) boat is the Solar Barque of Cheops. Try getting one of every kind into it let alone the number the bable claims. Gilgamesh should be ashamed that his yarn got taken over !
	__________________ Unemployment isn't working