Mind controls body in extreme experiments

fidiot · 10th March 2003, 10:45 PM

This is surely interesting.

Quote:

In a monastery in northern India, thinly clad Tibetan monks sat quietly in a room where the temperature was a chilly 40 degrees Fahrenheit. Using a yoga technique known as g Tum-mo, they entered a state of deep meditation. Other monks soaked 3-by-6-foot sheets in cold water (49 degrees) and placed them over the meditators' shoulders. For untrained people, such frigid wrappings would produce uncontrolled shivering.

If body temperatures continue to drop under these conditions, death can result. But it was not long before steam began rising from the sheets. As a result of body heat produced by the monks during meditation, the sheets dried in about an hour.

click here to read

BillyJoe · 11th March 2003, 02:41 AM

Quote:

....Tibetan monks sat quietly in a room where the temperature was a chilly 40 degrees Fahrenheit.....Other monks soaked 3-by-6-foot sheets in cold water [at] 49 degrees and placed them over the meditators' shoulders....

Perhaps in 40 degrees ambient temperature I wouldn't mind a 49 degree blanket either

Quote:

.....If body temperatures continue to drop under these conditions, death can result.....

Obviosly they didn't wait around long enough to die.

Quote:

.....it was not long before steam began rising from the sheets.....

Yeah, the monks body temperature is initially 96.8 degrees and the sheets are initially at 49 degrees so heat is transferred from the monks to the sheets turning the water into steam.

In fact all they are doing is switching themselves from their sensory inputs

11th March 2003, 09:05 AM

Hmm, would be interesting to get more details. Suprising that it is in Harvard Gazette under Science, but it seems like there was very little science done.

It would be nice to know what kind of sheets were used. Wool/synthetic materials actually preserve their insulation properties when wet (cotton isn't so good). Having the right material wrapped around you will keep you warm, wet or dry. Think "wet suit"; wet suits used by surfers/divers can keep you quite warm in quite cold water/air. They actually work by trapping some water between your body and the suit. But you don't get cold because the water isn't (hopefully) evaporating or circulating.

I assume this is some sort of trick/stunt, like the walking on hot coals thing. There are probably some things you have to do to prepare, and conditions have to be right so that you don't hurt yourself.

Maybe someone can post a good link explaining this one. I didn't find anything right off with a quick Google search.

garys_2k · 11th March 2003, 09:12 AM

I don't understand the "trick." If the air is near saturation it could appear to "steam" when the warmed cloth starts evaporating. I've dipped my hand in cool water and seen the same thing. HEY! I want a million dollars!

fidiot · 11th March 2003, 09:27 AM

Quote:

I don't understand the "trick." If the air is near saturation it could appear to "steam" when the warmed cloth starts evaporating. I've dipped my hand in cool water and seen the same thing. HEY! I want a million dollars!

I don't think they're claiming to have paranormal powers.

11th March 2003, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fidiot
I don't think they're claiming to have paranormal powers.

Yes, but:

Quote:

For untrained people, such frigid wrappings would produce uncontrolled shivering.

I think the amount of "training" required is probably much less than is implied, and I'm willing to bet that meditation has nothing to do with it.

roger · 11th March 2003, 09:32 AM

This is what every modern piece of outdoor gear is designed to do - wick water from the body, using the body's heat to dry it. I use the technique all the time to dry clothing when ice climbing, etc. Take the wet piece of clothing, put it against your body, wait an hour, and its dry! Guess I must have been meditating and didn't know it.

In any case, it's a fishy way to measure temperature changes. If I wanted to prove somebody could change their temperature, I'd use, I don't know, a thermometer???

I'm also extremely unimpressed by not shivering at 40F. If you are used to central heating, then that sounds cold, but it is balmy if you live at 15,000 ft w/o heat. When I was in Nepal it was normal to see people running around barefoot and otherwise minimally clad in very cold weather.

There may or may not be something in his claims, but (based on this article) he is not doing science.

edited to add: there is also altitude to take into account. If the monks are tested at a lower altitude than they normally live at, then their adaptation to altitude will help them not feel cold at 40F.

Andonyx · 11th March 2003, 09:33 AM

Hasn't anyone else ever seen "steam" rise off the bodies of football players on a very cold day.

This is a natural occurence when warm bodies heat moisture on their surface in a relatively cold environment.

Even if it's not paranormal, I don't even see this as unusual.

11th March 2003, 09:59 AM

... as an example of what I meant by being "prepared" for this stunt, notice in the photo in the link you posted, he is sitting on a nice pillow (insulation from the ground!) and wearing a blanket around his legs. It is these little details that make all the difference. The person is not sitting naked on the ground outdoors in the howling wind or in a pool of cold water. He is in a cold room with good insulation on his body! Nothing too tricky about that.

I'm sure if we got details on the materials used, we would see that the sheets were some sort of thin wool or other good insulating material.

As others have mentioned, good non-cotton outerwear will dry quickly. Especially if the air is cold and does not have much moisture of its own, and the material is being heated by the body.

jasonmccoy · 11th March 2003, 11:29 AM

Any wonder why Dr. Benson's NON-research made it into the Harvard Gazette?

Templeton Website The Foundation funded the largest study of intercessory prayer in medicinal settings in the world with its two million dollar award to Dr. Herbert Benson of the Harvard Medical School. Dr. Benson has collected all data for this study and prepared an article for submission to a bona fide, reputable, peer-reviewed academic journal in 2002. Consistent with the traditions of academic research, the John Templeton Foundation will not make any public statements nor does it have any data to release about this study until such time as it appears in an academic journal. Questions about the specifics of the study should be directed to Dr. Benson at the Harvard Medical School. Whatever the results of this study, the Foundation believes that it will certainly not be either the first or the last word on this subject but that our understanding of various issues at the intersection of spirituality and well-being will be advanced by having undertaken a study of this nature.

DrMatt · 11th March 2003, 01:42 PM

Tumo has come up in the JREF commentary. I actually sent in some comments on a set of pseudoscientific investigations of tumo where the alleged effect didn't work, and the monk blamed the rectal thermometer for breaking his concentration.

Visible clouds can rise from wet blankets on a cold day under a variety of conditions.

It seems to me that channel swimmers know a lot more about keeping warm than tumo arttists.

11th March 2003, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fidiot
This is surely interesting.
click here to read

its not as mysterious as they make it sound,I believe any healthy person can condition their body,to stand very cold temps,
I knew athletes who would go out swiming in the midlle of the winter,
it was pretty amazing ;as we kids used to play hockey on the frozen pond sudenly this bunch of naked guys come marching out of their clubhouse ,one of them carying an axe,and after choping a hole in the ice go for a swim,to everyones amazement and cheers,
the secret to not freezing they said is you have to take a cold shower every day,thats 365 days a year,cant skip even one day,
otherwise it wont work.
its as simple as that.

10th March 2003, 10:45 PM	#1
fidiot Thinker Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 181	Mind controls body in extreme experiments This is surely interesting. Quote: In a monastery in northern India, thinly clad Tibetan monks sat quietly in a room where the temperature was a chilly 40 degrees Fahrenheit. Using a yoga technique known as g Tum-mo, they entered a state of deep meditation. Other monks soaked 3-by-6-foot sheets in cold water (49 degrees) and placed them over the meditators' shoulders. For untrained people, such frigid wrappings would produce uncontrolled shivering. If body temperatures continue to drop under these conditions, death can result. But it was not long before steam began rising from the sheets. As a result of body heat produced by the monks during meditation, the sheets dried in about an hour. click here to read
fidiot Thinker Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 181	__________________ "If the book the Bible and my brain are both the work of the same Infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?" - Robert Ingersoll "No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude." - Karl Popper

11th March 2003, 02:41 AM	#2
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Re: Mind controls body in extreme experiments Quote: ....Tibetan monks sat quietly in a room where the temperature was a chilly 40 degrees Fahrenheit.....Other monks soaked 3-by-6-foot sheets in cold water [at] 49 degrees and placed them over the meditators' shoulders.... Perhaps in 40 degrees ambient temperature I wouldn't mind a 49 degree blanket either Quote: .....If body temperatures continue to drop under these conditions, death can result..... Obviosly they didn't wait around long enough to die. Quote: .....it was not long before steam began rising from the sheets..... Yeah, the monks body temperature is initially 96.8 degrees and the sheets are initially at 49 degrees so heat is transferred from the monks to the sheets turning the water into steam. In fact all they are doing is switching themselves from their sensory inputs
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

11th March 2003, 09:05 AM	#3
ChuckieR Guest Posts: n/a	Hmm, would be interesting to get more details. Suprising that it is in Harvard Gazette under Science, but it seems like there was very little science done. It would be nice to know what kind of sheets were used. Wool/synthetic materials actually preserve their insulation properties when wet (cotton isn't so good). Having the right material wrapped around you will keep you warm, wet or dry. Think "wet suit"; wet suits used by surfers/divers can keep you quite warm in quite cold water/air. They actually work by trapping some water between your body and the suit. But you don't get cold because the water isn't (hopefully) evaporating or circulating. I assume this is some sort of trick/stunt, like the walking on hot coals thing. There are probably some things you have to do to prepare, and conditions have to be right so that you don't hurt yourself. Maybe someone can post a good link explaining this one. I didn't find anything right off with a quick Google search.
ChuckieR Guest Posts: n/a

11th March 2003, 09:12 AM	#4
garys_2k Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 756	I don't understand the "trick." If the air is near saturation it could appear to "steam" when the warmed cloth starts evaporating. I've dipped my hand in cool water and seen the same thing. HEY! I want a million dollars!
garys_2k Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 756	__________________ - Gary

11th March 2003, 09:27 AM	#5
fidiot Thinker Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 181	Quote: I don't understand the "trick." If the air is near saturation it could appear to "steam" when the warmed cloth starts evaporating. I've dipped my hand in cool water and seen the same thing. HEY! I want a million dollars! I don't think they're claiming to have paranormal powers.
fidiot Thinker Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 181	__________________ "If the book the Bible and my brain are both the work of the same Infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?" - Robert Ingersoll "No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude." - Karl Popper

11th March 2003, 09:30 AM	#6
ChuckieR Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by fidiot I don't think they're claiming to have paranormal powers. Yes, but: Quote: For untrained people, such frigid wrappings would produce uncontrolled shivering. I think the amount of "training" required is probably much less than is implied, and I'm willing to bet that meditation has nothing to do with it.
ChuckieR Guest Posts: n/a

11th March 2003, 09:32 AM	#7
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,021	This is what every modern piece of outdoor gear is designed to do - wick water from the body, using the body's heat to dry it. I use the technique all the time to dry clothing when ice climbing, etc. Take the wet piece of clothing, put it against your body, wait an hour, and its dry! Guess I must have been meditating and didn't know it. In any case, it's a fishy way to measure temperature changes. If I wanted to prove somebody could change their temperature, I'd use, I don't know, a thermometer??? I'm also extremely unimpressed by not shivering at 40F. If you are used to central heating, then that sounds cold, but it is balmy if you live at 15,000 ft w/o heat. When I was in Nepal it was normal to see people running around barefoot and otherwise minimally clad in very cold weather. There may or may not be something in his claims, but (based on this article) he is not doing science. edited to add: there is also altitude to take into account. If the monks are tested at a lower altitude than they normally live at, then their adaptation to altitude will help them not feel cold at 40F.

11th March 2003, 09:33 AM	#8
Andonyx Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,834	Hasn't anyone else ever seen "steam" rise off the bodies of football players on a very cold day. This is a natural occurence when warm bodies heat moisture on their surface in a relatively cold environment. Even if it's not paranormal, I don't even see this as unusual.
Andonyx Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,834	__________________ Andonyx www.andonyx.com Shy Gypsy Slyly Shyly Tryst By My Crypt.

11th March 2003, 09:59 AM	#9
ChuckieR Guest Posts: n/a	... as an example of what I meant by being "prepared" for this stunt, notice in the photo in the link you posted, he is sitting on a nice pillow (insulation from the ground!) and wearing a blanket around his legs. It is these little details that make all the difference. The person is not sitting naked on the ground outdoors in the howling wind or in a pool of cold water. He is in a cold room with good insulation on his body! Nothing too tricky about that. I'm sure if we got details on the materials used, we would see that the sheets were some sort of thin wool or other good insulating material. As others have mentioned, good non-cotton outerwear will dry quickly. Especially if the air is cold and does not have much moisture of its own, and the material is being heated by the body.
ChuckieR Guest Posts: n/a

11th March 2003, 11:29 AM	#10
jasonmccoy Scholar Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 81	Any wonder why Dr. Benson's NON-research made it into the Harvard Gazette? Templeton Website The Foundation funded the largest study of intercessory prayer in medicinal settings in the world with its two million dollar award to Dr. Herbert Benson of the Harvard Medical School. Dr. Benson has collected all data for this study and prepared an article for submission to a bona fide, reputable, peer-reviewed academic journal in 2002. Consistent with the traditions of academic research, the John Templeton Foundation will not make any public statements nor does it have any data to release about this study until such time as it appears in an academic journal. Questions about the specifics of the study should be directed to Dr. Benson at the Harvard Medical School. Whatever the results of this study, the Foundation believes that it will certainly not be either the first or the last word on this subject but that our understanding of various issues at the intersection of spirituality and well-being will be advanced by having undertaken a study of this nature.
jasonmccoy Scholar Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 81	__________________ You'll bite off more than you can chew, if you get too cute and witty...you'd better close your face and stay out of my way if you don't want to go to Fist City. - bigfig, 7/27

11th March 2003, 01:42 PM	#11
DrMatt Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: USA Posts: 1,422	Tumo has come up in the JREF commentary. I actually sent in some comments on a set of pseudoscientific investigations of tumo where the alleged effect didn't work, and the monk blamed the rectal thermometer for breaking his concentration. Visible clouds can rise from wet blankets on a cold day under a variety of conditions. It seems to me that channel swimmers know a lot more about keeping warm than tumo arttists.
	__________________ Music: Splendor in Sound CD No.3 is out!

11th March 2003, 03:28 PM	#12
JANman Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Mind controls body in extreme experiments Quote: Originally posted by fidiot This is surely interesting. click here to read its not as mysterious as they make it sound,I believe any healthy person can condition their body,to stand very cold temps, I knew athletes who would go out swiming in the midlle of the winter, it was pretty amazing ;as we kids used to play hockey on the frozen pond sudenly this bunch of naked guys come marching out of their clubhouse ,one of them carying an axe,and after choping a hole in the ice go for a swim,to everyones amazement and cheers, the secret to not freezing they said is you have to take a cold shower every day,thats 365 days a year,cant skip even one day, otherwise it wont work. its as simple as that.
JANman Guest Posts: n/a