Vaccines

manOscience · 6th January 2012, 07:47 AM

I know this subject has been covered time and time again on Skeptoid, but my wife is convince that we are putting our children at less risk by choosing NOT to vaccinate than we would be by choosing to vaccinate. Most of her information has come from a book called "The Vaccine Book" by Dr. Robert W. Sears. This book seems to be thoroughly researched and it claims to be an unbiased look at vaccines. It lists the standard vaccine schedules for newborns in the U.S. and gives all of the ingredients in each vaccine. It also lists possible side-effects of the vaccines as well as the frequency of occurrence of the disease in the U.S. that is being inoculated against.

I have tried to research the sources in this book, but since I don't have a whole lot of time or money, it is fairly difficult to review the studies that are cited. I've tried to look at reviews for the book across the web, but they are generally just 4 or 5 star reviews with no comments.

I'm wondering if anyone out there has read this book or researched the claims that it makes.

THANKS!!

JJM 777 · 6th January 2012, 08:10 AM

Are there no pro-vaccination websites to help you out?

I would approach it this way: each vaccine is designed against specific diseases, print out the wikipedia pages introducing the said diseases, which probably includes data about its prevalence before and after vaccination campaigns were introduced.

Then do a google image search for photos of persons with the said diseases. Select the most horrible of these and print them out in A4 size.

Then make her read and watch all of it.

No wait, this can be done in a more fun and interactive way. Show her one of the A4 size photos at a time, and let her guess which disease it is. If she answers incorrectly, go through the wikipedia material together to see which of the diseases matches the photo. Then to the next photo, and so on.

manOscience · 6th January 2012, 09:31 AM

I don't want to scare her into sharing my opinion. I want to find information to determine which of our opinions is more valid. I know there are lots of risks associated with NOT vaccinating and that there are at least some risks associated with vaccinating. I just want to make sure that vaccinating is the safer choice.

carlitos · 6th January 2012, 09:49 AM

You might mention that the kids won't be able to go to school if they aren't vaccinated.

Segnosaur · 6th January 2012, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by manOscience

Most of her information has come from a book called "The Vaccine Book" by Dr. Robert W. Sears. This book seems to be thoroughly researched and it claims to be an unbiased look at vaccines. It lists the standard vaccine schedules for newborns in the U.S. and gives all of the ingredients in each vaccine. It also lists possible side-effects of the vaccines as well as the frequency of occurrence of the disease in the U.S. that is being inoculated against.

You may already know this, but any arguments about vaccines based on the "frequency of occurrence" should be looking at how often the disease occurs in a non-innoculated population.

If the book gives the current rates of particular diseases, then it is being deceitful. Many people benefit from herd immunity... even though an individual may not be vaccinated, they can't catch the disease because everyone else has been vaccinated. The problem is, if too many people decide to avoid vaccinations, herd immunity breaks down.

Edited to add: If you want information specifically debunking the work in Dr. Sear's book, you can find it here:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...-robert-sears/
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...23/1/e164.full

godless dave · 6th January 2012, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by manOscience

It also lists possible side-effects of the vaccines as well as the frequency of occurrence of the disease in the U.S. that is being inoculated against.

Many of the diseases that are inoculated against appear with low frequency because of aggressive vaccination programs. It would be more helpful to compare frequency of diseases before and after vaccines were available for them.

Estellea · 6th January 2012, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by manOscience

I know this subject has been covered time and time again on Skeptoid, but my wife is convince that we are putting our children at less risk by choosing NOT to vaccinate than we would be by choosing to vaccinate. Most of her information has come from a book called "The Vaccine Book" by Dr. Robert W. Sears. This book seems to be thoroughly researched and it claims to be an unbiased look at vaccines. It lists the standard vaccine schedules for newborns in the U.S. and gives all of the ingredients in each vaccine. It also lists possible side-effects of the vaccines as well as the frequency of occurrence of the disease in the U.S. that is being inoculated against.

I have tried to research the sources in this book, but since I don't have a whole lot of time or money, it is fairly difficult to review the studies that are cited. I've tried to look at reviews for the book across the web, but they are generally just 4 or 5 star reviews with no comments.

I'm wondering if anyone out there has read this book or researched the claims that it makes.

THANKS!!

A couple of important things about Dr. "Bob" is that he is, what I like to refer to as, a celebritrician; he is a business man first, doctor somewhere down the line. He hasn't produced any research of his own and frankly, his approach is to validate the unscientific fears of parents to sell goods and products. He literally pulled his schedule out of thin air but tries to justify it with dodgy studies and his own inability to understand vaccine research. I highly recommend Segnosaur's links to read and here are some additional ones exposing Dr. Bob's scientific illiteracy: http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2009/...ce-part-i.html and http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2009/...ence-part.html

His vaccine schedule actually leads to more vaccine excipients and doctor's visits and leave a child exposed to diseases. Ironically, he had four infants and children infected with measles in his own waiting room due to his intentionally unvaccinated seven year-old patient who had measles. Dr. Bob couldn't even correctly diagnose measles so do you want to take vaccine advise from this guy? I would suggest considering combination vaccines such as pentacel or pediarix, even if they are the only one given at that visit since your wife has been frightened. Let her get her courage up. Also consider and talk to your wife and paediatrician about potential exposures such as your occupations, daycare, where you live and travel. Dr. Bob doesn't consider any of these things and just as he has criticised the CDC schedule for "one-size-fits-all", his schedule is also "one-size-fits-all" except that it leaves children vulnerable to disease.

Este

Lisa Simpson · 6th January 2012, 11:28 AM

Dr. Paul Offit has written some excellent books about the vaccination controversy.

http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Choices...5877913&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Vaccines-Your-...5877913&sr=8-3

I remember my son's pediatrician writing on the paper that covers the exam table. He wrote down a number, something like 1 in a million (this was 21 years ago, I don't recall the exact number) odds that my son would be even a little ill from the vaccinations. Then he wrote another number, something like one in a few thousand, the odds he'd died from one of the diseases vaccinations treated. He got vaccinated and so did my other two sons.

Estellea · 6th January 2012, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by manOscience

I don't want to scare her into sharing my opinion. I want to find information to determine which of our opinions is more valid. I know there are lots of risks associated with NOT vaccinating and that there are at least some risks associated with vaccinating. I just want to make sure that vaccinating is the safer choice.

I agree and don't find scare tactics to be effective even though there are real and terrible complications from vaccine preventable diseases. Here are other very science-based links about the diseases and vaccine risks: http://www.vaccineinformation.org/ and http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/index.html Good luck.

Este

LarianLeQuella · 10th January 2012, 07:22 AM

*Sigh* You may want to point out that Dr. Sears's book with his alternative schedule has no basis from peer reviewed studies. If anything, his alternative schedule results in MORE visits to the doctor, at an expense of whatever your co-pay is.

A page that I put up with Todd W.'s help is http://factsnotfantasy.com/vaccines.php that outline and debunk most of the anti-vax pro-disease lies.

Chris Haynes · 11th January 2012, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Y...
Edited to add: If you want information specifically debunking the work in Dr. Sear's book, you can find it here:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...-robert-sears/
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...23/1/e164.full

There is also this one:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...r-of-dr-sears/

NewtonTrino · 11th January 2012, 02:27 PM

The fact that this nonsense comes up so often shows you just how far down the tubes the country has already gone. Our grandparents would be horrified (my grandfather had polio as a child for example).

Sceptic-PK · 12th January 2012, 11:57 PM

I assume divorce has been ruled out?

6th January 2012, 07:47 AM	#1
manOscience New Blood Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2	Vaccines I know this subject has been covered time and time again on Skeptoid, but my wife is convince that we are putting our children at less risk by choosing NOT to vaccinate than we would be by choosing to vaccinate. Most of her information has come from a book called "The Vaccine Book" by Dr. Robert W. Sears. This book seems to be thoroughly researched and it claims to be an unbiased look at vaccines. It lists the standard vaccine schedules for newborns in the U.S. and gives all of the ingredients in each vaccine. It also lists possible side-effects of the vaccines as well as the frequency of occurrence of the disease in the U.S. that is being inoculated against. I have tried to research the sources in this book, but since I don't have a whole lot of time or money, it is fairly difficult to review the studies that are cited. I've tried to look at reviews for the book across the web, but they are generally just 4 or 5 star reviews with no comments. I'm wondering if anyone out there has read this book or researched the claims that it makes. THANKS!!
manOscience New Blood Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2

6th January 2012, 08:10 AM	#2
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Are there no pro-vaccination websites to help you out? I would approach it this way: each vaccine is designed against specific diseases, print out the wikipedia pages introducing the said diseases, which probably includes data about its prevalence before and after vaccination campaigns were introduced. Then do a google image search for photos of persons with the said diseases. Select the most horrible of these and print them out in A4 size. Then make her read and watch all of it. No wait, this can be done in a more fun and interactive way. Show her one of the A4 size photos at a time, and let her guess which disease it is. If she answers incorrectly, go through the wikipedia material together to see which of the diseases matches the photo. Then to the next photo, and so on.
	Last edited by JJM 777; 6th January 2012 at 08:13 AM.

6th January 2012, 09:31 AM	#3
manOscience New Blood Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2	I don't want to scare her into sharing my opinion. I want to find information to determine which of our opinions is more valid. I know there are lots of risks associated with NOT vaccinating and that there are at least some risks associated with vaccinating. I just want to make sure that vaccinating is the safer choice.
manOscience New Blood Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2

6th January 2012, 10:00 AM	#5
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,072	Originally Posted by manOscience Most of her information has come from a book called "The Vaccine Book" by Dr. Robert W. Sears. This book seems to be thoroughly researched and it claims to be an unbiased look at vaccines. It lists the standard vaccine schedules for newborns in the U.S. and gives all of the ingredients in each vaccine. It also lists possible side-effects of the vaccines as well as the frequency of occurrence of the disease in the U.S. that is being inoculated against. You may already know this, but any arguments about vaccines based on the "frequency of occurrence" should be looking at how often the disease occurs in a non-innoculated population. If the book gives the current rates of particular diseases, then it is being deceitful. Many people benefit from herd immunity... even though an individual may not be vaccinated, they can't catch the disease because everyone else has been vaccinated. The problem is, if too many people decide to avoid vaccinations, herd immunity breaks down. Edited to add: If you want information specifically debunking the work in Dr. Sear's book, you can find it here: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...-robert-sears/ http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...23/1/e164.full
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy Last edited by Segnosaur; 6th January 2012 at 10:07 AM.

6th January 2012, 10:03 AM	#6
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,131	Originally Posted by manOscience It also lists possible side-effects of the vaccines as well as the frequency of occurrence of the disease in the U.S. that is being inoculated against. Many of the diseases that are inoculated against appear with low frequency because of aggressive vaccination programs. It would be more helpful to compare frequency of diseases before and after vaccines were available for them.
	__________________ "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm

6th January 2012, 09:49 AM	#4
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 11,549	You might mention that the kids won't be able to go to school if they aren't vaccinated.

6th January 2012, 11:23 AM	#7
Estellea Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,120	Originally Posted by manOscience I know this subject has been covered time and time again on Skeptoid, but my wife is convince that we are putting our children at less risk by choosing NOT to vaccinate than we would be by choosing to vaccinate. Most of her information has come from a book called "The Vaccine Book" by Dr. Robert W. Sears. This book seems to be thoroughly researched and it claims to be an unbiased look at vaccines. It lists the standard vaccine schedules for newborns in the U.S. and gives all of the ingredients in each vaccine. It also lists possible side-effects of the vaccines as well as the frequency of occurrence of the disease in the U.S. that is being inoculated against. I have tried to research the sources in this book, but since I don't have a whole lot of time or money, it is fairly difficult to review the studies that are cited. I've tried to look at reviews for the book across the web, but they are generally just 4 or 5 star reviews with no comments. I'm wondering if anyone out there has read this book or researched the claims that it makes. THANKS!! A couple of important things about Dr. "Bob" is that he is, what I like to refer to as, a celebritrician; he is a business man first, doctor somewhere down the line. He hasn't produced any research of his own and frankly, his approach is to validate the unscientific fears of parents to sell goods and products. He literally pulled his schedule out of thin air but tries to justify it with dodgy studies and his own inability to understand vaccine research. I highly recommend Segnosaur's links to read and here are some additional ones exposing Dr. Bob's scientific illiteracy: http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2009/...ce-part-i.html and http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2009/...ence-part.html His vaccine schedule actually leads to more vaccine excipients and doctor's visits and leave a child exposed to diseases. Ironically, he had four infants and children infected with measles in his own waiting room due to his intentionally unvaccinated seven year-old patient who had measles. Dr. Bob couldn't even correctly diagnose measles so do you want to take vaccine advise from this guy? I would suggest considering combination vaccines such as pentacel or pediarix, even if they are the only one given at that visit since your wife has been frightened. Let her get her courage up. Also consider and talk to your wife and paediatrician about potential exposures such as your occupations, daycare, where you live and travel. Dr. Bob doesn't consider any of these things and just as he has criticised the CDC schedule for "one-size-fits-all", his schedule is also "one-size-fits-all" except that it leaves children vulnerable to disease. Este

6th January 2012, 11:28 AM	#8
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,067	Dr. Paul Offit has written some excellent books about the vaccination controversy. http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Choices...5877913&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Vaccines-Your-...5877913&sr=8-3 I remember my son's pediatrician writing on the paper that covers the exam table. He wrote down a number, something like 1 in a million (this was 21 years ago, I don't recall the exact number) odds that my son would be even a little ill from the vaccinations. Then he wrote another number, something like one in a few thousand, the odds he'd died from one of the diseases vaccinations treated. He got vaccinated and so did my other two sons.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

6th January 2012, 11:29 AM	#9
Estellea Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,120	Originally Posted by manOscience I don't want to scare her into sharing my opinion. I want to find information to determine which of our opinions is more valid. I know there are lots of risks associated with NOT vaccinating and that there are at least some risks associated with vaccinating. I just want to make sure that vaccinating is the safer choice. I agree and don't find scare tactics to be effective even though there are real and terrible complications from vaccine preventable diseases. Here are other very science-based links about the diseases and vaccine risks: http://www.vaccineinformation.org/ and http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/index.html Good luck. Este

10th January 2012, 07:22 AM	#10
LarianLeQuella Elf Wino Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun Posts: 1,995	Sigh You may want to point out that Dr. Sears's book with his alternative schedule has no basis from peer reviewed studies. If anything, his alternative schedule results in MORE visits to the doctor, at an expense of whatever your co-pay is. A page that I put up with Todd W.'s help is http://factsnotfantasy.com/vaccines.php that outline and debunk most of the anti-vax pro-disease lies.
	__________________ My crappy blog that no one should be forced to read. Ever... But I like traffic and comments, so have at it if you please. Larian LeQuella Armyn ab Treanid

11th January 2012, 02:09 PM	#11
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,205	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Y... Edited to add: If you want information specifically debunking the work in Dr. Sear's book, you can find it here: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...-robert-sears/ http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...23/1/e164.full There is also this one: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...r-of-dr-sears/
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

11th January 2012, 02:27 PM	#12
NewtonTrino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bothell, WA Posts: 3,782	The fact that this nonsense comes up so often shows you just how far down the tubes the country has already gone. Our grandparents would be horrified (my grandfather had polio as a child for example).

12th January 2012, 11:57 PM	#13
Sceptic-PK Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,401	I assume divorce has been ruled out?