CT factors in a nutshell

David Swidler · 8th January 2012, 01:30 PM

I'm interested in refining this graphic: http://wp.me/pSXPz-x6

Any suggestions how to tweak it? In your suggestions, please try to maintain the snark for which the blog strives.

Horatius · 8th January 2012, 04:59 PM

I'd have "suspicion of authority" with at least a bit outside the "stupidity" circle. Not all such suspicion is stupid, after all.

solzhenitsyn · 8th January 2012, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Horatius

I'd have "suspicion of authority" with at least a bit outside the "stupidity" circle. Not all such suspicion is stupid, after all.

Good point.

Hans · 8th January 2012, 07:47 PM

Don't forget pyramidiots and pyramidology

rjh01 · 8th January 2012, 08:33 PM

I would change stupidity to something else. Maybe a lack of critical thinking skills?

atecom · 8th January 2012, 09:03 PM

Also change inofrmation to information.

David Swidler · 8th January 2012, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Horatius

I'd have "suspicion of authority" with at least a bit outside the "stupidity" circle. Not all such suspicion is stupid, after all.

Excellent point. I like rjh01's suggestion; I'll look for something in that vein.

Originally Posted by atecom

Also change inofrmation to information.

Done (oopsie).

David Swidler · 8th January 2012, 10:30 PM

It's now "credulousness" instead of stupidity, and the suspicion is now "unhealthy".

Horatius · 9th January 2012, 04:45 AM

Another point: does basic "White supremacy" really need an unhealthy suspicion of authority? That could be under the basic "bigotry" heading. I'd put "White Supremacist Militia Movement" in that spot, since it's both racist and anti-government.

David Swidler · 9th January 2012, 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by Horatius

Another point: does basic "White supremacy" really need an unhealthy suspicion of authority? That could be under the basic "bigotry" heading. I'd put "White Supremacist Militia Movement" in that spot, since it's both racist and anti-government.

A valid point, that. Can anyone think of other examples that combine the suspicion of authority with bigotry? I can see shoehorning Protocols in there, but it's not a comfortable fit.

David Swidler · 9th January 2012, 05:36 AM

And is there a way to determine why the image will suddenly refuse to display properly a couple of hours after successfully doing so?

Horatius · 9th January 2012, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

And is there a way to determine why the image will suddenly refuse to display properly a couple of hours after successfully doing so?

THEY got to it, duh.

Horatius · 9th January 2012, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

A valid point, that. Can anyone think of other examples that combine the suspicion of authority with bigotry? I can see shoehorning Protocols in there, but it's not a comfortable fit.

"Jewish Banksters"? Anti-Jewish bigotry combined with distrust of Banking institutions as authorities.

Firestone · 9th January 2012, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Horatius

"Jewish Banksters"? Anti-Jewish bigotry combined with distrust of Banking institutions as authorities.

Or the delicious euphemism "International Banksters".

cwalner · 9th January 2012, 08:00 AM

I would suggest adding my pet favorite, FOTL, but it seems to belong under Inside Info and suspicion of Authority and that is already pretty crowded.

Also you can add Birtherism under Bigotry and suspicion of authority.

LSSBB · 9th January 2012, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

A valid point, that. Can anyone think of other examples that combine the suspicion of authority with bigotry? I can see shoehorning Protocols in there, but it's not a comfortable fit.

Christian Identity
Black Supremacy
AntiCatholicism, esp. pope as AntiChrist and related Millenialism
Rastafarianism

Gawdzilla · 9th January 2012, 08:38 AM

You can put Pearl Harbor in with Holocaust Denial I think.

Harpo · 9th January 2012, 08:40 AM

Capitalise the C of "chemtrails" to be consistent with the other things in the list. Great Venn diagram btw

cwalner · 9th January 2012, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

You can put Pearl Harbor in with Holocaust Denial I think.

I disagree. As I understand it, the Pearl Harbor CT is more about US collusion in the attack, so I don't see the Bigotry angle. Similar to Anti-Islamic sentiment following 9-11. It isn't the anti-Islamic bigots claiming that 9-11 was a conspiracy.

David Swidler · 9th January 2012, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Christian Identity
Black Supremacy
AntiCatholicism, esp. pope as AntiChrist and related Millenialism
Rastafarianism

Perhaps. Would Nation of Islam be decent shorthand, or am I way off?

David Swidler · 9th January 2012, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by cwalner

I disagree. As I understand it, the Pearl Harbor CT is more about US collusion in the attack, so I don't see the Bigotry angle. Similar to Anti-Islamic sentiment following 9-11. It isn't the anti-Islamic bigots claiming that 9-11 was a conspiracy.

That's only partly true. I wrestled with the thought that some of the Truthers simply can't believe that a bunch of Hindu-Kush cave-dwellers were sophisticated enough to pull off the attack.

LSSBB · 9th January 2012, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

Perhaps. Would Nation of Islam be decent shorthand, or am I way off?

Nation of Islam is one of the black supremacy groups. There are more, some even more radical.

David Swidler · 9th January 2012, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Nation of Islam is one of the black supremacy groups. There are more, some even more radical.

The basics I get. I'm wondering whether singling out NoI for inclusion in the diagram would enhance or hinder comprehension.

Gawdzilla · 9th January 2012, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by cwalner

I disagree. As I understand it, the Pearl Harbor CT is more about US collusion in the attack, so I don't see the Bigotry angle. Similar to Anti-Islamic sentiment following 9-11. It isn't the anti-Islamic bigots claiming that 9-11 was a conspiracy.

Ah, but you haven't heard as many PHCTs as I have. The fact that the Japanese couldn't do it without help from the white man is a favorite with them. Seems the Japanese can't fly very well because they were carried on their mothers' backs as children. So we had to set things up carefully so they'd have the best chance to destroy the fleet.

See what I have to put up with? ("put up with" as in hammer the **** out of, of course.)

LSSBB · 9th January 2012, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

The basics I get. I'm wondering whether singling out NoI for inclusion in the diagram would enhance or hinder comprehension.

It might enhance, it, on reflection, because many have heard of them.

David Swidler · 9th January 2012, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Ah, but you haven't heard as many PHCTs as I have. The fact that the Japanese couldn't do it without help from the white man is a favorite with them. Seems the Japanese can't fly very well because they were carried on their mothers' backs as children. So we had to set things up carefully so they'd have the best chance to destroy the fleet.

See what I have to put up with? ("put up with" as in hammer the **** out of, of course.)

Noted. Unfortunately, the racism connection isn't obvious to the random person encountering the idea of a PHCT, so for purposes of the diagram I'd have to leave out the bigotry bit. The same reasoning underlies the decision to keep Truthers only in the other two circles.

David Swidler · 9th January 2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

It might enhance, it, on reflection, because many have heard of them.

OK, let's go with that. Thank you.

Gawdzilla · 9th January 2012, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

Noted. Unfortunately, the racism connection isn't obvious to the random person encountering the idea of a PHCT, so for purposes of the diagram I'd have to leave out the bigotry bit. The same reasoning underlies the decision to keep Truthers only in the other two circles.

That's fine. I get a little deeper into the issues than most people. I do like the one where Adm. King did it because Gen. Marshall didn't like the British.

cwalner · 9th January 2012, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Ah, but you haven't heard as many PHCTs as I have. The fact that the Japanese couldn't do it without help from the white man is a favorite with them. Seems the Japanese can't fly very well because they were carried on their mothers' backs as children. So we had to set things up carefully so they'd have the best chance to destroy the fleet.

See what I have to put up with? ("put up with" as in hammer the **** out of, of course.)

Wow! I did not know that. I know that there was plenty of anti-Japanese bigotry during WWII (the internment camps for example). I just never associated them with the Pearl Harbor Conspiracies.

I must say, though, that the pure arrogance of this aspect of the CT is remarkable. The idea that no other people can possible be technologically capable of sneak attacking the US, so they must have had inside help from the US government. Because the possibility of the USA having been complacent and lazy (on both 12-7-41 and 9-11-01) just doesn't cross their minds.

David Swidler · 9th January 2012, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by cwalner

Wow! I did not know that. I know that there was plenty of anti-Japanese bigotry during WWII (the internment camps for example). I just never associated them with the Pearl Harbor Conspiracies.

I must say, though, that the pure arrogance of this aspect of the CT is remarkable. The idea that no other people can possible be technologically capable of sneak attacking the US, so they must have had inside help from the US government. Because the possibility of the USA having been complacent and lazy (on both 12-7-41 and 9-11-01) just doesn't cross their minds.

The internal contradictions of that point of view would be hilarious if they weren't so destructive. The CTer would have it that a government so powerful and skillful as to engineer such a frame-up could somehow still neglect to remove from society all the nobodies privy to this scandalous bit of data.

cwalner · 9th January 2012, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

Noted. Unfortunately, the racism connection isn't obvious to the random person encountering the idea of a PHCT, so for purposes of the diagram I'd have to leave out the bigotry bit. The same reasoning underlies the decision to keep Truthers only in the other two circles.

However, I think Truthers can go under Bigots for two reasons. The less obvious condescension that Arabs could not have pulled it off that you mention, but also the more overt accusations that the Jews were behind 9-11.

ETA: Besides moving 9-11 to the center, frees up space for FOTL under SoA and PII

David Swidler · 9th January 2012, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by cwalner

However, I think Truthers can go under Bigots for two reasons. The less obvious condescension that Arabs could not have pulled it off that you mention, but also the more overt accusations that the Jews were behind 9-11.

They could, I agree, but only those of us already familiar with Truthers know that off the top. People who have only cursory encounters with Truthiness won't grok that at first blush. Heck, it took me a while on these boards to realize the "what about those dancing Jews?" idiots were more than a speck in the Truther universe. I don't expect n00bs to know about the sinister antisemitic undertones already.

Gawdzilla · 9th January 2012, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by cwalner

Wow! I did not know that. I know that there was plenty of anti-Japanese bigotry during WWII (the internment camps for example). I just never associated them with the Pearl Harbor Conspiracies.

I must say, though, that the pure arrogance of this aspect of the CT is remarkable. The idea that no other people can possible be technologically capable of sneak attacking the US, so they must have had inside help from the US government. Because the possibility of the USA having been complacent and lazy (on both 12-7-41 and 9-11-01) just doesn't cross their minds.

The PHCTers routinely claim that FDR manipulated the Japanese like they were puppets on strings. Evidently the poor IJA and IJN had no free will.

SpitfireIX · 9th January 2012, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Ah, but you haven't heard as many PHCTs as I have. The fact that the Japanese couldn't do it without help from the white man is a favorite with them. Seems the Japanese can't fly very well because they were carried on their mothers' backs as children. So we had to set things up carefully so they'd have the best chance to destroy the fleet.

See what I have to put up with? ("put up with" as in hammer the **** out of, of course.)

I thought the "bounced upside-down on their mothers' backs" theory was prevalent before Pearl Harbor (I vaguely recall another one having something to do with harsh toilet training). Have you actually seen a CT claim this after the fact?

SpitfireIX · 9th January 2012, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by cwalner

However, I think Truthers can go under Bigots for two reasons. The less obvious condescension that Arabs could not have pulled it off that you mention, but also the more overt accusations that the Jews were behind 9-11.

ETA: Besides moving 9-11 to the center, frees up space for FOTL under SoA and PII

The Pearl Harbor CT is much more racist, though as noted, this might not be obvious to most people. As I've mentioned elsewhere, it's one thing to claim that a group of 19 Arab malcontents couldn't have carried out a complicated hijacking plot. It's quite another thing to claim that the best and brightest of the Imperial Japanese Navy couldn't follow even the most basic principles of operational and communications security.

Gawdzilla · 9th January 2012, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

I thought the "bounced upside-down on their mothers' backs" theory was prevalent before Pearl Harbor (I vaguely recall another one having something to do with harsh toilet training). Have you actually seen a CT claim this after the fact?

That one harkens back to the Usenet groups, c. 1993 IIRC. But it was popular in "men's magazine" stories well before that.

8th January 2012, 01:30 PM	#1
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	CT factors in a nutshell I'm interested in refining this graphic: http://wp.me/pSXPz-x6 Any suggestions how to tweak it? In your suggestions, please try to maintain the snark for which the blog strives.
	__________________ www.mightierthanthepen.wordpress.com

8th January 2012, 04:59 PM	#2
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 21,894	I'd have "suspicion of authority" with at least a bit outside the "stupidity" circle. Not all such suspicion is stupid, after all.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

8th January 2012, 05:21 PM	#3
solzhenitsyn Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 187	Originally Posted by Horatius I'd have "suspicion of authority" with at least a bit outside the "stupidity" circle. Not all such suspicion is stupid, after all. Good point.
solzhenitsyn Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 187

8th January 2012, 10:23 PM	#7
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Originally Posted by Horatius I'd have "suspicion of authority" with at least a bit outside the "stupidity" circle. Not all such suspicion is stupid, after all. Excellent point. I like rjh01's suggestion; I'll look for something in that vein. Originally Posted by atecom Also change inofrmation to information. Done (oopsie).
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8th January 2012, 10:30 PM	#8
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	It's now "credulousness" instead of stupidity, and the suspicion is now "unhealthy".
	__________________ www.mightierthanthepen.wordpress.com Last edited by David Swidler; 8th January 2012 at 10:33 PM.

8th January 2012, 07:47 PM	#4
Hans Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: NW United States Posts: 2,786	Don't forget pyramidiots and pyramidology

8th January 2012, 08:33 PM	#5
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,198	I would change stupidity to something else. Maybe a lack of critical thinking skills?

8th January 2012, 09:03 PM	#6
atecom Thinker Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 189	Also change inofrmation to information.

9th January 2012, 04:45 AM	#9
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 21,894	Another point: does basic "White supremacy" really need an unhealthy suspicion of authority? That could be under the basic "bigotry" heading. I'd put "White Supremacist Militia Movement" in that spot, since it's both racist and anti-government.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

9th January 2012, 05:33 AM	#10
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Originally Posted by Horatius Another point: does basic "White supremacy" really need an unhealthy suspicion of authority? That could be under the basic "bigotry" heading. I'd put "White Supremacist Militia Movement" in that spot, since it's both racist and anti-government. A valid point, that. Can anyone think of other examples that combine the suspicion of authority with bigotry? I can see shoehorning Protocols in there, but it's not a comfortable fit.
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9th January 2012, 05:36 AM	#11
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	And is there a way to determine why the image will suddenly refuse to display properly a couple of hours after successfully doing so?
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9th January 2012, 07:35 AM	#12
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by David Swidler And is there a way to determine why the image will suddenly refuse to display properly a couple of hours after successfully doing so? THEY got to it, duh.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

9th January 2012, 07:38 AM	#13
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by David Swidler A valid point, that. Can anyone think of other examples that combine the suspicion of authority with bigotry? I can see shoehorning Protocols in there, but it's not a comfortable fit. "Jewish Banksters"? Anti-Jewish bigotry combined with distrust of Banking institutions as authorities.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

9th January 2012, 07:46 AM	#14
Firestone Proud Award Award recipient Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,493	Originally Posted by Horatius "Jewish Banksters"? Anti-Jewish bigotry combined with distrust of Banking institutions as authorities. Or the delicious euphemism "International Banksters".
	__________________ The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan

9th January 2012, 08:00 AM	#15
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,708	I would suggest adding my pet favorite, FOTL, but it seems to belong under Inside Info and suspicion of Authority and that is already pretty crowded. Also you can add Birtherism under Bigotry and suspicion of authority.
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

9th January 2012, 08:20 AM	#16
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelor's Grove Cemetery Posts: 4,504	Originally Posted by David Swidler A valid point, that. Can anyone think of other examples that combine the suspicion of authority with bigotry? I can see shoehorning Protocols in there, but it's not a comfortable fit. Christian Identity Black Supremacy AntiCatholicism, esp. pope as AntiChrist and related Millenialism Rastafarianism
	__________________ "Things that never happened before happen all the time." (Scott Sagan, 1993) "Put down the Wite-Out and step away from the dictionary." (000063, 2012) "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." (John Kenneth Galbraith, 1971)

9th January 2012, 08:38 AM	#17
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,539	You can put Pearl Harbor in with Holocaust Denial I think.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

9th January 2012, 08:40 AM	#18
Harpo Muse Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: England's Green & Pleasant Land Posts: 884	Capitalise the C of "chemtrails" to be consistent with the other things in the list. Great Venn diagram btw
	__________________ "This statement cannot be proved" Kurt Gödel (paraphrased)

9th January 2012, 09:02 AM	#19
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,708	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla You can put Pearl Harbor in with Holocaust Denial I think. I disagree. As I understand it, the Pearl Harbor CT is more about US collusion in the attack, so I don't see the Bigotry angle. Similar to Anti-Islamic sentiment following 9-11. It isn't the anti-Islamic bigots claiming that 9-11 was a conspiracy.
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

9th January 2012, 09:20 AM	#20
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Originally Posted by LSSBB Christian Identity Black Supremacy AntiCatholicism, esp. pope as AntiChrist and related Millenialism Rastafarianism Perhaps. Would Nation of Islam be decent shorthand, or am I way off?
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9th January 2012, 09:21 AM	#21
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Originally Posted by cwalner I disagree. As I understand it, the Pearl Harbor CT is more about US collusion in the attack, so I don't see the Bigotry angle. Similar to Anti-Islamic sentiment following 9-11. It isn't the anti-Islamic bigots claiming that 9-11 was a conspiracy. That's only partly true. I wrestled with the thought that some of the Truthers simply can't believe that a bunch of Hindu-Kush cave-dwellers were sophisticated enough to pull off the attack.
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9th January 2012, 10:23 AM	#22
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelor's Grove Cemetery Posts: 4,504	Originally Posted by David Swidler Perhaps. Would Nation of Islam be decent shorthand, or am I way off? Nation of Islam is one of the black supremacy groups. There are more, some even more radical.
	__________________ "Things that never happened before happen all the time." (Scott Sagan, 1993) "Put down the Wite-Out and step away from the dictionary." (000063, 2012) "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." (John Kenneth Galbraith, 1971)

9th January 2012, 10:46 AM	#23
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Originally Posted by LSSBB Nation of Islam is one of the black supremacy groups. There are more, some even more radical. The basics I get. I'm wondering whether singling out NoI for inclusion in the diagram would enhance or hinder comprehension.
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9th January 2012, 10:51 AM	#24
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,539	Originally Posted by cwalner I disagree. As I understand it, the Pearl Harbor CT is more about US collusion in the attack, so I don't see the Bigotry angle. Similar to Anti-Islamic sentiment following 9-11. It isn't the anti-Islamic bigots claiming that 9-11 was a conspiracy. Ah, but you haven't heard as many PHCTs as I have. The fact that the Japanese couldn't do it without help from the white man is a favorite with them. Seems the Japanese can't fly very well because they were carried on their mothers' backs as children. So we had to set things up carefully so they'd have the best chance to destroy the fleet. See what I have to put up with? ("put up with" as in hammer the **** out of, of course.)
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

9th January 2012, 10:53 AM	#25
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelor's Grove Cemetery Posts: 4,504	Originally Posted by David Swidler The basics I get. I'm wondering whether singling out NoI for inclusion in the diagram would enhance or hinder comprehension. It might enhance, it, on reflection, because many have heard of them.
	__________________ "Things that never happened before happen all the time." (Scott Sagan, 1993) "Put down the Wite-Out and step away from the dictionary." (000063, 2012) "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." (John Kenneth Galbraith, 1971)

9th January 2012, 11:18 AM	#26
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Ah, but you haven't heard as many PHCTs as I have. The fact that the Japanese couldn't do it without help from the white man is a favorite with them. Seems the Japanese can't fly very well because they were carried on their mothers' backs as children. So we had to set things up carefully so they'd have the best chance to destroy the fleet. See what I have to put up with? ("put up with" as in hammer the **** out of, of course.) Noted. Unfortunately, the racism connection isn't obvious to the random person encountering the idea of a PHCT, so for purposes of the diagram I'd have to leave out the bigotry bit. The same reasoning underlies the decision to keep Truthers only in the other two circles.
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9th January 2012, 11:21 AM	#27
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Originally Posted by LSSBB It might enhance, it, on reflection, because many have heard of them. OK, let's go with that. Thank you.
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9th January 2012, 11:27 AM	#28
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,539	Originally Posted by David Swidler Noted. Unfortunately, the racism connection isn't obvious to the random person encountering the idea of a PHCT, so for purposes of the diagram I'd have to leave out the bigotry bit. The same reasoning underlies the decision to keep Truthers only in the other two circles. That's fine. I get a little deeper into the issues than most people. I do like the one where Adm. King did it because Gen. Marshall didn't like the British.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

9th January 2012, 11:41 AM	#29
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,708	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Ah, but you haven't heard as many PHCTs as I have. The fact that the Japanese couldn't do it without help from the white man is a favorite with them. Seems the Japanese can't fly very well because they were carried on their mothers' backs as children. So we had to set things up carefully so they'd have the best chance to destroy the fleet. See what I have to put up with? ("put up with" as in hammer the **** out of, of course.) Wow! I did not know that. I know that there was plenty of anti-Japanese bigotry during WWII (the internment camps for example). I just never associated them with the Pearl Harbor Conspiracies. I must say, though, that the pure arrogance of this aspect of the CT is remarkable. The idea that no other people can possible be technologically capable of sneak attacking the US, so they must have had inside help from the US government. Because the possibility of the USA having been complacent and lazy (on both 12-7-41 and 9-11-01) just doesn't cross their minds.
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

9th January 2012, 11:45 AM	#30
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Originally Posted by cwalner Wow! I did not know that. I know that there was plenty of anti-Japanese bigotry during WWII (the internment camps for example). I just never associated them with the Pearl Harbor Conspiracies. I must say, though, that the pure arrogance of this aspect of the CT is remarkable. The idea that no other people can possible be technologically capable of sneak attacking the US, so they must have had inside help from the US government. Because the possibility of the USA having been complacent and lazy (on both 12-7-41 and 9-11-01) just doesn't cross their minds. The internal contradictions of that point of view would be hilarious if they weren't so destructive. The CTer would have it that a government so powerful and skillful as to engineer such a frame-up could somehow still neglect to remove from society all the nobodies privy to this scandalous bit of data.
	__________________ www.mightierthanthepen.wordpress.com

9th January 2012, 11:48 AM	#31
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,708	Originally Posted by David Swidler Noted. Unfortunately, the racism connection isn't obvious to the random person encountering the idea of a PHCT, so for purposes of the diagram I'd have to leave out the bigotry bit. The same reasoning underlies the decision to keep Truthers only in the other two circles. However, I think Truthers can go under Bigots for two reasons. The less obvious condescension that Arabs could not have pulled it off that you mention, but also the more overt accusations that the Jews were behind 9-11. ETA: Besides moving 9-11 to the center, frees up space for FOTL under SoA and PII
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Last edited by cwalner; 9th January 2012 at 11:51 AM.

9th January 2012, 11:54 AM	#32
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Originally Posted by cwalner However, I think Truthers can go under Bigots for two reasons. The less obvious condescension that Arabs could not have pulled it off that you mention, but also the more overt accusations that the Jews were behind 9-11. They could, I agree, but only those of us already familiar with Truthers know that off the top. People who have only cursory encounters with Truthiness won't grok that at first blush. Heck, it took me a while on these boards to realize the "what about those dancing Jews?" idiots were more than a speck in the Truther universe. I don't expect n00bs to know about the sinister antisemitic undertones already.
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9th January 2012, 01:12 PM	#33
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,539	Originally Posted by cwalner Wow! I did not know that. I know that there was plenty of anti-Japanese bigotry during WWII (the internment camps for example). I just never associated them with the Pearl Harbor Conspiracies. I must say, though, that the pure arrogance of this aspect of the CT is remarkable. The idea that no other people can possible be technologically capable of sneak attacking the US, so they must have had inside help from the US government. Because the possibility of the USA having been complacent and lazy (on both 12-7-41 and 9-11-01) just doesn't cross their minds. The PHCTers routinely claim that FDR manipulated the Japanese like they were puppets on strings. Evidently the poor IJA and IJN had no free will.
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9th January 2012, 01:28 PM	#34
SpitfireIX Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA Posts: 2,829	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Ah, but you haven't heard as many PHCTs as I have. The fact that the Japanese couldn't do it without help from the white man is a favorite with them. Seems the Japanese can't fly very well because they were carried on their mothers' backs as children. So we had to set things up carefully so they'd have the best chance to destroy the fleet. See what I have to put up with? ("put up with" as in hammer the **** out of, of course.) I thought the "bounced upside-down on their mothers' backs" theory was prevalent before Pearl Harbor (I vaguely recall another one having something to do with harsh toilet training). Have you actually seen a CT claim this after the fact?
	__________________ Handy responses to conspiracy theorists' claims: 1) "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage 2) "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --Wolfgang Pauli 3) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya

9th January 2012, 01:33 PM	#35
SpitfireIX Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA Posts: 2,829	Originally Posted by cwalner However, I think Truthers can go under Bigots for two reasons. The less obvious condescension that Arabs could not have pulled it off that you mention, but also the more overt accusations that the Jews were behind 9-11. ETA: Besides moving 9-11 to the center, frees up space for FOTL under SoA and PII The Pearl Harbor CT is much more racist, though as noted, this might not be obvious to most people. As I've mentioned elsewhere, it's one thing to claim that a group of 19 Arab malcontents couldn't have carried out a complicated hijacking plot. It's quite another thing to claim that the best and brightest of the Imperial Japanese Navy couldn't follow even the most basic principles of operational and communications security.
	__________________ Handy responses to conspiracy theorists' claims: 1) "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage 2) "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --Wolfgang Pauli 3) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya