Bush's Willing Executioners

[a_unique_person]

We are all capapble of it, Frank Newgent has posted the chilling details of the experiment to prove it.

A few brave souls have the fortitude to resist it, but I doubt that many of us could say and believe that they would not fall for it if put in the same circumstances.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...635277382.html

It is easy to demonise a group. Far better to understand the circumstances that create the failure of the human spirit and prevent them.

Quote:

The American soldiers and civilians responsible for humiliating, torturing and possibly murdering Iraqi prisoners in the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad over the past few months do not belong in the same category as Nazi or Soviet camp guards. But their actions do prove, if further proof were needed, that no culture is incapable of treating its enemies as subhuman.

Yes, America is a beacon of democracy. But Americans are still as capable of torture as anyone else.We've now seen the horrific evidence: American soldiers, brought up in an American culture, stripped and sexually humiliated Iraqi prisoners. They dressed them in black hoods and laughingly threatened them with electrocution.

They also took photographs of themselves, grinning and pretending to shoot at the genitals of their captives, even though the prisoners came from a society that values physical modesty, even though some of the guards were women. Finally, they took photographs of at least one other Iraqi who had, apparently, been beaten to death. Those responsible did not commit these acts because they were Americans, although some will surely say so. But nor did being American stop them.

.....

More than 2000 years ago, Thucydides wrote of war as a time when the "conventions of human life" are "thrown into confusion", and so it remains.

[Millionframe]

People are definitely capable of it. http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2...222_b_main.asp

They say the soldiers 'weren't properly trained'. How much training does it take not to force people to commit lewd actions to each other, and kill some of them?

How much training does it take to hide them from Red Cross inspectors, too?

We've demonstrated to the whole world that the US is in every way as bad as it painted Saddam Hussein to be.

Congratulations! Good Job, Dubya! Nice going!

[Ziggurat]

I'm not impressed. This criticism is highschool-level thinking, it's saying nothing new, it makes unsupported assumptions, all pretty much just to imply that America sucks (and it's all Bush's fault).

Take for example the statement "The soldiers were, it seems, told that "this is how military intelligence wants it done"." Well, this is what the accused have said in their defense, to jump to the conclusion that this is how it must have happened requires a little bit of bias.

Or this:
"People will be punished and, if so, that might help restore the rule of law in Iraqi prisons. In America outrage is mounting, and that's a good thing. None of which should distract us from the deeper point: Yes, America is a beacon of democracy. But Americans are still as capable of torture as anyone else."

That's not the deeper point at all, that should have been obvious beforehand. The deeper point really IS the first point, that unlike Saddam, we DO hold our soldiers accountable, we DO hold them to a higher standard, we WILL punish soldiers who abuse their position, and in the end that will matter much more than the fact that these abuses happened. That's the deeper point, unless you've got an anti-American agenda, and that really does separate us from the likes of Saddam.

Evildave: the "they" claiming the soldiers weren't properly trained are the soldiers in question. Your criticism on that point is quite irrelevant to the army in general.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ziggurat
I'm not impressed. This criticism is highschool-level thinking, it's saying nothing new, it makes unsupported assumptions, all pretty much just to imply that America sucks (and it's all Bush's fault).

Take for example the statement "The soldiers were, it seems, told that "this is how military intelligence wants it done"." Well, this is what the accused have said in their defense, to jump to the conclusion that this is how it must have happened requires a little bit of bias.

Or this:
"People will be punished and, if so, that might help restore the rule of law in Iraqi prisons. In America outrage is mounting, and that's a good thing. None of which should distract us from the deeper point: Yes, America is a beacon of democracy. But Americans are still as capable of torture as anyone else."

That's not the deeper point at all, that should have been obvious beforehand. The deeper point really IS the first point, that unlike Saddam, we DO hold our soldiers accountable, we DO hold them to a higher standard, we WILL punish soldiers who abuse their position, and in the end that will matter much more than the fact that these abuses happened. That's the deeper point, unless you've got an anti-American agenda, and that really does separate us from the likes of Saddam.

Evildave: the "they" claiming the soldiers weren't properly trained are the soldiers in question. Your criticism on that point is quite irrelevant to the army in general.

You hold them accountable when they are caught. People have been sitting on these photos for months. But, as I have commented before, it is still better than what Saddam offered. But, as others have noted, saying you are better than Saddam or Hitler is still not a good way of assesing your behaviour.

The author was not criticising Americans, but pointing out

1) "Hitlers willing executioners" attempted to say that Germans are somehow evil, as they were the country that hosted the holocaust
2) All people are susceptible to acting as the Germans did who took part in the holocaust. Thinking that it can't happen to you or your country is to deny your human failings.

[Virgil]

Quote:

Originally posted by evildave

We've demonstrated to the whole world that the US is in every way as bad as it painted Saddam Hussein to be.

Congratulations! Good Job, Dubya! Nice going!

We are not as bad as SH. NPR reported this morning that 25 detainees died in US custody. only two were ruled as homicides.


SH IMO killed more than that.

[Skeptic]

Take for example the statement "The soldiers were, it seems, told that "this is how military intelligence wants it done"." Well, this is what the accused have said in their defense, to jump to the conclusion that this is how it must have happened requires a little bit of bias.

It's typical. Remember the My Lai massacre? Lt. Kelly claimed in his defense that what he did was what "everybody" was doing, that it is one of "numerous" such massacres, that this sort of thing was expected of him, etc.

Of course, he was lying; but that didn't stop the anti-war crowd--which didn't believe a word anybody in uniform ever said before that--to suddenly accept that as gospel truth, because it fitted with their prejudice.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
Take for example the statement "The soldiers were, it seems, told that "this is how military intelligence wants it done"." Well, this is what the accused have said in their defense, to jump to the conclusion that this is how it must have happened requires a little bit of bias.

It's typical. Remember the My Lai massacre? Lt. Kelly claimed in his defense that what he did was what "everybody" was doing, that it is one of "numerous" such massacres, that this sort of thing was expected of him, etc.

Of course, he was lying; but that didn't stop the anti-war crowd--which didn't believe a word anybody in uniform ever said before that--to suddenly accept that as gospel truth, because it fitted with their prejudice.

You have proof he was lying, of course.

[Ziggurat]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person

You hold them accountable when they are caught. People have been sitting on these photos for months.

And criminal investigations have been ongoing for months. Those didn't start with the release of the photos. They didn't happen because of press coverage. They happened internally, within the army, because of the reports of other soldiers. Individuals failed, but the system seems to have self-corrected, as it is intended to do.

Quote:

2) All people are susceptible to acting as the Germans did who took part in the holocaust. Thinking that it can't happen to you or your country is to deny your human failings.

Yeah, sure. But I don't remember anyone saying that (well, maybe American or NTW, but who listens to them?), so what's the bloody point of the article? That something pretty much nobody was arguing wasn't true?

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ziggurat


And criminal investigations have been ongoing for months. Those didn't start with the release of the photos. They didn't happen because of press coverage. They happened internally, within the army, because of the reports of other soldiers. Individuals failed, but the system seems to have self-corrected, as it is intended to do.

And Lt Calley had a good investigation too. It's all like plausible deniability. "What do we have to do to make it seem like we care about this". How many months do you have to investigate before the prison at least has it's personell replaced while investigations go on.

Quote:

Yeah, sure. But I don't remember anyone saying that (well, maybe American or NTW, but who listens to them?), so what's the bloody point of the article? That something pretty much nobody was arguing wasn't true?

Unfortunately for you, given the ratings success of 'reality' shows, most Americans aren't that sophisticated.

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
Take for example the statement "The soldiers were, it seems, told that "this is how military intelligence wants it done"." Well, this is what the accused have said in their defense, to jump to the conclusion that this is how it must have happened requires a little bit of bias.

It's typical. Remember the My Lai massacre? Lt. Kelly claimed in his defense that what he did was what "everybody" was doing, that it is one of "numerous" such massacres, that this sort of thing was expected of him, etc.

Of course, he was lying; but that didn't stop the anti-war crowd--which didn't believe a word anybody in uniform ever said before that--to suddenly accept that as gospel truth, because it fitted with their prejudice.

Calley, it was Calley

[rikzilla]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person


You have proof he was lying, of course.

No you don't. Let's say for a moment that I called you a murderer. Is it now your responsibility to prove I'm lying?

So, now we have some ugly pictures and I am as disgusted as anyone else. But.....this is only what it is....an isolated incident. The US Army does not have a policy to torture people. These people obviously did what they did because they felt they could get away with it, not because it was part of the SOP. If there was a policy of systematic torture and degradation there would either be no pictures at all...or there would be pictures taken in secret and smuggled out. These idiots were posing with their sado-masochistic creations as if it was art and they were the proud artists.

So this is what we have...this is all we have. There are ongoing investigations, if these idiots actually physically injured or murdered any prisoners it will come out in the court marshal. It looks to me like we have here evidence that a few people used their positions to abuse the human rights of some prisoners. On this scant and limited evidence AUP wants to equate US soldiers to Nazi soldiers. But even though they are both human, and both wear uniforms there is no further comparison to be made. The Nazis had a POLICY to do things like this and worse....under the Nazi system these guards would have been praised for their cruelty, under ours they will be sent to jail. That is not only a big difference...it makes ALL the difference!

AUP should apologise, not just for making an entire thread that breaks Godwin's law,...but for his illogical and flawed reasoning abilities as well.

-z

[Jocko]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person


And Lt Calley had a good investigation too. It's all like plausible deniability. "What do we have to do to make it seem like we care about this". How many months do you have to investigate before the prison at least has it's personell replaced while investigations go on.

Typical damned if we do, damned if we don't AUP bullsh*t. I wish you could drop the facade of actually caring about some human beings and just let your venom flow over your fangs like UCE does. I respect his honesty more than I respect the forest of fig-leaves that composes your worldview.

Quote:

Unfortunately for you, given the ratings success of 'reality' shows, most Americans aren't that sophisticated.

Well, not every country can produce a master of the stage like Yahoo Serious. Give us a break, mate.

[Charlie Monoxide]

I can watch, hear, and read the thousands of reasons for the brutal behaviour of the american soldiers at that Iraqi. Ultimately it is the fault of Bush.

To reason that Saddam did worst is disengenuous.

Although it'll never happen, I'd like to see a war crimes tribunal, hosted by non-Americans.

Charlie (being Canadian, I'd volunteer for that tribunal) Monoxide

[Skeptic]

To reason that Saddam did worst is disengenuous.

I think you miss the point. The only time people here are saying that Saddam was far worse is when people like "A Unique Person" claim that the USA's and Saddam's actions are equivalent.

To give an analogy, hundreds of US soldiers were convicted, and punished severely, in WWII for crimes like rape and murder of civilians. Nobody ever raised the excuse "the nazis were worse" to justify their actions.

But if somebody was crazy enough to claim that due to their actions the USA was no better morally than nazi Germany, then saying that Hitler was far worse is a perfectly reasonable reply to such a loony claim.

[American]

That's correct- others are doing the job as you criticize their work from across an ocean, telling them how not to fight a war, how not to conduct interrogations against an enemy, how not to win and come home alive.

[Skeptic]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person


You have proof he was lying, of course.

[Skeptic]

Unfortunately for you, given the ratings success of 'reality' shows, most Americans aren't that sophisticated.

Racist.

[hgc]

Quote:

Originally posted by American
That's correct- others are doing the job as you criticize their work from across an ocean, telling them how not to fight a war, how not to conduct interrogations against an enemy, how not to win and come home alive.

You may not be aware, but this country has a civilian government, which has complete oversight and command of the military. Just let me know if there are any other gaping holes in your basic knowledge that might have been filled by a 2nd grade education.

[c0rbin]

The point of bringing up Saddam's abuses (when talking about the crimes committed by US soldiers in the pictures) is that Saddam got a pass from the world for the past decade to do far, far worse things than this.

Was Aljezeera(sp?) broadcasting pictures of Uday beating people? Probably not. Was a_unique_person up in arms about those inhumanities? Probably not.

I know what you're saying: "America claims the moral high ground." Well, read this thread. Torture is not US policy.

These people--torturer and tortured--will find recourse under the law.

Far better and more just treatment then they might have had with the alternative.

[varwoche]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ziggurat
we DO hold our soldiers accountable, we DO hold them to a higher standard, we WILL punish soldiers who abuse their position, and in the end that will matter much more than the fact that these abuses happened.

That is not always the case.

Pardon the broken record folks, but the US, for all practical purposes, tortures captives. As in real torture, not just ambiguous "abuse". Unabashed, unapologetic, and presumably ongoing.

This practice is legitimized by a transparent charade -- captives are loaned out to rough and ready "friends" like Egypt and Jordan. This is akin to me hiring thugs to beat the crap out of someone I don't like because I don't want to get in trouble. Who me?

wa post

Quote:

In other cases, usually involving lower-level captives, the CIA hands them to foreign intelligence services -- notably those of Jordan, Egypt and Morocco -- with a list of questions the agency wants answered. These "extraordinary renditions" are done without resort to legal process and usually involve countries with security services known for using brutal means.

[Dorian Gray]

Quote:

Congratulations! Good Job, Dubya! Nice going!

Hold on there, Evildave. It's only a matter of time before this is blamed on the Clinton military.

Quote:

We are not as bad as SH. NPR reported this morning that 25 detainees died in US custody. only two were ruled as homicides.
SH IMO killed more than that.

Virgil, I hope you reconsider your standards. Our military shouldn't be comparing itself to the worst people and merely trying to be better than them subjectively. It should be upholding and maintaining a high objective standard, including not beating, humiliating, photographing, filming, mocking and killing prisoners. The point isn't what happens AFTER we discover such abuses, but that the abuses happened at all.

Comparing us to Hitler or Hussein would be like if I murdered someone and then said I wasn't as bad as Jeffrey Dahmer. Get it now? Laws don't care if you kill one or a hundred, only that it is a crime.

Quote:

Those didn't start with the release of the photos. They didn't happen because of press coverage.

That's pretty naive, Zig. When did Rumsfeld and others appear before the Senate Armed Services committee - before or after the pictures were released? Also, when were soldiers discharged from the armed forces - before, when investigations uncovered abuses, or after the abuses were made public? Hint: The abuses happened between October and December 2003.

In other words, it appears that no real disciplinary action took place until after everyone knew about it. Unless you can show us a report of people being fired or discharged for abuses or torture or murder BEFORE all the publicity, then I would argue that all this DID start with the release of the photos.

Quote:

Torture is not US policy.

How about holding people indefinitely? How about the difference between the official policy and the actual one? How about the people and countries we pay to torture prisoners for us, as pointed out above?

[dann]

Danish Daily ”Politiken”: http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=318086
"Danish soldier punished for his behaviour in Iraq
One of the Danish soldiers in Iraq was reproved for insulting behaviour towards an Iraqi during search of a house.
(…) The soldier flipped him the birdie and pricked him with his rifle.
“The incident was observed by a military policeman who immediately reported it”, says Minister of Defense Søren Gade (member of the party Venstre).
(…)
“It was correct behaviour when the military policeman reported the incident, and the reproof is a good signal to send to the Danish soldiers and the people of Iraq”, says Søren Gade. (…)"

As mentioned in another discussion: Last year a group of Danish soldiers rendered a group of harmless fishermen harmless by killing some of them: http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/show...threadid=36991

And yesterday they succeeded in killing another unarmed Iraqi:
Danish Daily “Politiken”: http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=318124
"Iraqi killed by Danish soldiers
7.. maj 2004 kl. 08:41 / Opdateret 7. maj 17:33
When an Iraqi man refused to stop his truck, Danish soldiers fired at him. Apparently the man was unarmed."

[rikzilla]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dorian Gray


How about holding people indefinitely? How about the difference between the official policy and the actual one? How about the people and countries we pay to torture prisoners for us, as pointed out above?

DG,

Your post was a mass of assertions supported very thinly by the pictures recently published. Those pics were horrible and the actions of the people involved were criminal and worse...stupid. After all there is no more reviled criminal than a stupid one.

But upon what do you base your further comments? That these pics are indicative of widespred abuses? They quite simply are not. If there was an official policy or even tacit approval of such behavior there would have been no pictures allowed to exist...or there would be furtive smuggled photos. Under no circumstances would troops be seen mugging for the camera as these brutal idiots are doing. Why, the very existence of such photos fairly scream out that there was no operational control of these guards.

That is indicative only of a failure of the command structure. The fact that it was a fellow soldier who turned to his chain of command with this photographic evidence is not only indicative of the crimes depicted, but is also de facto evidence of a system earnestly policing itself. The idea that the military or the government wanted to cover up the pictures is not indicative of wrongdoing IMHO. We are at war, and publication of these pictures would be detrimental to the war effort. A nation at war should not be expected to publish or make public any material which would aid the enemy and/or cause un-necessary danger to our soldiers...these pics IMHO do both.

Now, about the export of prisoners for torture.....I would expect that you as a skeptic would have based your opinion upon evidence. Please provide it so that I can join you in your moral outrage.

-z

[Kodiak]

"Roosevelt's Willing Executioners", right a_u_p?



STARVATION AT REMAGEN

After the capture of the Remagen Bridge, the US Army hastily erected dozens of Prisoner of War cages around the bridge-head. The camps were simply open fields surrounded by concertina wire. Those at the Rhine Meadows were situated at Remagen, Bad Kreuznach, Andernach, Buderich, Rheinbach and Sinzig. The German prisoners were hopeful of good treatment from the GIs but in this they were sadly disappointed. Herded into the open spaces like cattle, some were beaten and mistreated. No tents or toilets were supplied. The camps became huge latrines, a sea of urine from one end to the other. They had to sleep in holes in the ground which they dug with their bare hands. In the Bad Kreuznach cage, 560,000 men were interned in an area that could only comfortably hold 45,000. Denied enough food and water, they were forced to eat the grass under their feet and the camps soon became a sea of mud. After the concentration camps were discovered, their treatment became worse as the GIs vented their rage on the hapless prisoners.

In the five camps around Bretzenheim, prisoners had to survive on 600-850 calories per day. With bloated bellies and teeth falling out, they died by the thousands. During the two and a half months (April-May, 1945) when the camps were under American control, a total of 18,100 prisoners died from malnutrition, disease and exposure. This extremely harsh treatment at the hands of the Americans resulted in the deaths of over 50,000 German prisoners of war in the Rhine Meadows camps alone in the months just before and after the war ended. It must however be borne in mind that with the best will in the world it proved almost impossible to care for such a huge number of prisoners under the strict terms of the Geneva Convention. The task of guarding these prisoners, numbering around 920,000, fell to the men of the US 106th. Infantry Division. The Remagen cage was set up to accommodate 100,000 men but ended up with twice that number. On the first afternoon 35,000 prisoners were counted through the gate. About 10,000 of these required urgent medical attention which in most cases was completely absent. All roads leading to the camps were clogged with hundreds of trucks bringing in even more prisoners, sent to the rear by the advancing 9th.US Army. By April 15, 1945, 1.3 million prisoners were in American hands."

[Skeptical Greg]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
....
That's pretty naive, Zig. When did Rumsfeld and others appear before the Senate Armed Services committee - before or after the pictures were released? Also, when were soldiers discharged from the armed forces - before, when investigations uncovered abuses, or after the abuses were made public? Hint: The abuses happened between October and December 2003.

In other words, it appears that no real disciplinary action took place until after everyone knew about it. Unless you can show us a report of people being fired or discharged for abuses or torture or murder BEFORE all the publicity, then I would argue that all this DID start with the release of the photos.

Did not!! Your ignorance is overwhelming..


The investigation started in January.. At least Six people have already been charged and are awaiting court's martial.. Do you think all that took place just because of the 60 Minute story and the photos?


What is the cause of your outrage here? Are you suffering from remembering a past experience where you were chained to a bed with underwear over your head..

[demon]

Allegations of child torture too.

quote:
US soldiers abused Iraqi child, claims detainee
07/05/2004 - 21:19:36

A young Iraqi girl was stripped and beaten at a US military prison in Baghdad while her brother heard her scream from another cell, it was reported tonight

Suhaib al-Baz, 24, a cameraman for the Arab satellite TV network Al-Jazeera, said he saw the abuse while he was being held at Abu Ghraib prison.

Earlier, al-Baz had told Associated Press that he had been stripped, beaten, spat upon and deprived of sleep during his 74-day stint in US army custody.

During that time, he told the AP, soldiers took “torture shots” with their personal cameras. In one case, al-Baz said he saw a soldier’s computer screen emblazoned with a backdrop picture of a hooded, handcuffed prisoner being attacked by a dog.

Al-Baz said he saw a 12- or 13-year-old Iraqi girl brought into the prison.

Late at night, he said, she was brought in front of his and other prison cells, naked and screaming.

Her brother, held in an upper cell, heard her scream and call out for his help, said al-Baz.

On another occasion, al-Baz said, he saw a 15-year-old Iraqi boy, who was ill, being forced to hold two heavy cans of water and run up and down a corridor.

If the boy stopped, he was beaten with a stick by an American soldier, al-Baz said.

“He collapsed from exhaustion, so they stripped him and poured cold water over him,” al-Baz said.

A naked, hooded man was brought into the area and placed face to face with the boy. When the man’s hood was removed, the boy was shocked to see his father and collapsed, al-Baz said.

The American soldiers “then forced his father to wear a bra and a pair of knickers” and laughed, al-Baz said.

Al-Baz had been arrested by US forces in Tikrit, Iraq, in early November 2003 while covering clashes between insurgents.
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/stor...54&p=yx35x666x

[varwoche]

Quote:

Originally posted by rikzilla

Now, about the export of prisoners for torture.....I would expect that you as a skeptic would have based your opinion upon evidence. Please provide it so that I can join you in your moral outrage.
-z

Apparently you missed earlier WA Post quote/link.

As well, google [Jordan Egypt torture cia]. You might find (near the top)...

christian science monitor

guardian

Widely reported in mainstream press -- tacitly acknowledged by govt officials.

Your moral outrage is awaited.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by rikzilla


No you don't. Let's say for a moment that I called you a murderer. Is it now your responsibility to prove I'm lying?

So, now we have some ugly pictures and I am as disgusted as anyone else. But.....this is only what it is....an isolated incident. The US Army does not have a policy to torture people. These people obviously did what they did because they felt they could get away with it, not because it was part of the SOP. If there was a policy of systematic torture and degradation there would either be no pictures at all...or there would be pictures taken in secret and smuggled out. These idiots were posing with their sado-masochistic creations as if it was art and they were the proud artists.

Amnesty International and the Red Cross had been warning for months about this. The Military had the pictures. You don't have to find them guilty, you can stand them down, or put new people in their to work with them. If I was the chairman of a company and someone said there was fraud happening in accounts, complete with pictures, then I would be in dereliction of duty if I did not take some of those actions. Sending the accused for trial is a different matter, but the fraud has to be investigated and immediately stopped. The US only appears to have acted on this when the photos got out to the general public.

Quote:

So this is what we have...this is all we have. There are ongoing investigations, if these idiots actually physically injured or murdered any prisoners it will come out in the court marshal. It looks to me like we have here evidence that a few people used their positions to abuse the human rights of some prisoners. On this scant and limited evidence AUP wants to equate US soldiers to Nazi soldiers. But even though they are both human, and both wear uniforms there is no further comparison to be made. The Nazis had a POLICY to do things like this and worse....under the Nazi system these guards would have been praised for their cruelty, under ours they will be sent to jail. That is not only a big difference...it makes ALL the difference!

According to these guys, that's exactly what happened.

Quote:

AUP should apologise, not just for making an entire thread that breaks Godwin's law,...but for his illogical and flawed reasoning abilities as well.

-z

[Ziggurat]

Quote:

Originally posted by demon
Allegations of child torture too.
...
Suhaib al-Baz, 24, a cameraman for the Arab satellite TV network Al-Jazeera, said he saw the abuse while he was being held at Abu Ghraib prison.

Sorry if I wait for a more reliable source than an Al Jazeera cameraman. They aren't exactly an impartial observer in the war on terror.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe...spain.alqaeda/
"MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- Police have arrested a correspondent for Qatar-based Al-Jazeera TV at his home in southern Spain accusing him of having links to the al Qaeda terrorist group. "

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1081401565081
"The Samaria Military Court on Thursday indicted Daib Abu Zeid, a reporter for Hizbullah's al-Manar television for transferring funds on behalf of the Hizbullah to Palestinian terror cells in the West Bank and recruiting Israeli Arabs to Hizbullah's ranks."

[zenith-nadir]

In 1971 Dr Philip Zimbardo at Stanford University did an experiment on prisoner abuse. It is interesting reading. You can find a different brief summarry here: Stanford Prison Experiment

[curious]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
Take for example the statement "The soldiers were, it seems, told that "this is how military intelligence wants it done"." Well, this is what the accused have said in their defense, to jump to the conclusion that this is how it must have happened requires a little bit of bias.

It's typical. Remember the My Lai massacre? Lt. Kelly claimed in his defense that what he did was what "everybody" was doing, that it is one of "numerous" such massacres, that this sort of thing was expected of him, etc.

Of course, he was lying; but that didn't stop the anti-war crowd--which didn't believe a word anybody in uniform ever said before that--to suddenly accept that as gospel truth, because it fitted with their prejudice.

If Calley was lying why pardon him? Why did so many soldiers particpate in the massacre? Why the cover-up? Why was Calley the only one convicted? While I agree what happend definitiley wasn't "normal", I think it was a lot closer to being normal than many people were willing to admit.

Here are some excerpts from what I thought was good summary on what happend at My Lai written by an Army Officer.

Quote:

In the words of the Peers Commission Report: "it seems reasonable to conclude that LTC Barker’s minimal or nonexistent instructions concerning the handling of noncombatants created the potential for grave misunderstandings as to his intentions and for the interpretation of his orders as authority to fire, without restriction, on all persons found in the target area."

[NOTE. The Peers Commission was created in response to the strongly voiced, if not strong, accusations that the Army had covered up the massacre at My Lai. Then Secretary of the Army, Stanley Resor appointed LTG William R. Peers to head a small team with the limited mandate of examining the adequacy of the original investigation(s).]

. . . . . .


Contrary to CPT Medina’s position at his court-martial, the orders given by him to his officers during the briefing were interpreted in three distinct ways, that can be categorized as "BLACK," "WHITE," and "GRAY."

"BLACK."

SGT Hodge’s recollection of the briefing: "This was a time for us to get even. A time for us to settle the score. A time for revenge -- when we can get revenge for our fallen comrades. The order we were given was to kill and destroy everything that was in the village. It was to kill the pigs, drop them in the well; pollute the water supply; kill, cut down the banana trees; burn the village; burn the hootches as we went through it. It was clearly explained that there were to be no prisoners. The order that was given was to kill everyone in the village. Someone asked if that meant the women and children. And the order was: everyone in the village. Because those people that were in the village -- the women, the kids, the old men -- were VC. They were Viet Cong themselves or they were sympathetic to the Viet Cong. They were not sympathetic to the Americans. It was quite clear that no one was to be spared in the village."

SGT Hodges was not alone in his interpretation of CPT Medina’s briefing. Many of the NCOs left the meeting with the same impression -- convinced that the order was to kill everyone.

SSG L.A. Bacon: "We were to kill all the Viet Cong and Viet Cong sympathizers in the village."

SGT Charles West: "It was a search and destroy mission, we were to kill everything."

SSG Martin Fagan: "Kill everyone."

SGT Isaiah Cowan: "To kill everything that was in the village."

A soldier even remembered the question: "Someone asked, ‘Are we supposed to kill women and children?’ and Medina replied, ‘Kill everything that moves.’"

. . . . . .


CONCLUSION OF TIMELINE. The My Lai Massacre occurred over a span of four hours. There were from 400 to 500 Vietnamese victims. To this day we do not have an exact figure because of the inadequate investigation(s) initially conducted by the chain of command. Official KIA reported by C Co. = 128. Absolutely no enemy fire had been taken by the soldiers of C Co. The only casualty suffered by C Co. was a self-inflicted accidental wound to the foot (a soldier was attempting to fix a jammed pistol, belonging to another soldier, when it went off). Only three enemy weapons were recovered during the entire operation. The heavy radio traffic that always accompanied a heavy firefight was nowhere to be heard that day.

. . . . . .

The Peers Commission reported: "The most disturbing factor we encountered was the low regard in which some of the men held the Vietnamese . . . considering them subhuman, on the level of dogs. . . .Some of the men never referred to Vietnamese as anything but ‘gooks.’" Two sociologists wrote: "When victims are dehumanized . . . the moral restraints against killing or harming them become less effective. Groups of people who are systematically demonized, assigned to inferior or dangerous categories, and identified by derogatory labels are readily excluded from the bonds of human empathy and the protection of moral and legal precepts."

CPT Medina’s dislike for the Vietnamese was obvious, and many times openly displayed. He openly rebuked soldiers who showed any form of kindness. Several soldiers witnessed him beat suspects during interrogations. One soldier reported that CPT Medina once told 1st PLT that they would have to guard and share their food with any prisoner that they captured and failed to kill. The intent was clear. 1LT Calley, who never pretended to like the Vietnamese, absorbed his commander’s sentiments like a sponge.

[Frank Newgent]

ZN: Are you arguing for a_unique_person? Following the second link...

Quote:

Although the intent of the experiment was to examine captivity, its result has been used to demonstrate the impressionability and obedience of people when provided with a legitimizing ideology and social and institutional support.

[WildCat]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
Virgil, I hope you reconsider your standards. Our military shouldn't be comparing itself to the worst people and merely trying to be better than them subjectively.

evildave claimed that the US was every bit as bad as the Saddam Hussein regime:

Quote:

We've demonstrated to the whole world that the US is in every way as bad as it painted Saddam Hussein to be.

That's what Ziggurat was commenting on.

Quote:

That's pretty naive, Zig. When did Rumsfeld and others appear before the Senate Armed Services committee - before or after the pictures were released? Also, when were soldiers discharged from the armed forces - before, when investigations uncovered abuses, or after the abuses were made public? Hint: The abuses happened between October and December 2003.

In other words, it appears that no real disciplinary action took place until after everyone knew about it. Unless you can show us a report of people being fired or discharged for abuses or torture or murder BEFORE all the publicity, then I would argue that all this DID start with the release of the photos.

Here's an unrelated case. But here is a report from January about the very case in question. The only thing new is the public release of the pics. The criminal investigation was well underway more than 3 months ago.

Edited to add another story about this case from March.

[reprise]

People can read the Taguba report for themselves if they wish to establish the timeline of events.

[WildCat]

Quote:

Originally posted by reprise
People can read the Taguba report for themselves if they wish to establish the timeline of events.

Thanks reprise, the Smoking Gun does it again!

[Frank Newgent]

ZN: The following sentence from that same link is

Quote:

It also used to illustrate cognitive dissonance theory and the power of seniority/authority.

which then links this

Quote:

Reduction of cognitive dissonance is good because one feels better, and because one can come closer to consonance by eliminating contradictions. On the other hand some of the ways of reduction of cognitive dissonance involve a distortion of the truth, which may cause wrong decisions.

and this

Quote:

Subordinates are generally expected to follow the actions, orders, or requests of those senior to them with little or no question.

Seniority is present every day, be it between parents and children, sibilings of different ages, workers and their managers, and is a large part of the military and para-military command structure.

and this

Quote:

Within conflict theory, "authority" is used both in the same sense as Weber's functionalist definition above, and in a rather different sense which is based on the observation that power is almost never endorsed in a moral sense by those who do not have it, and therefore defines "authority" as power which is so institutionalised that it is largely unquestioned.

Am not around much, so I don't know. Are you really Cleopatra?

[reprise]

Opinion polls on the guilty verdict against William Calley.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kodiak
"Roosevelt's Willing Executioners", right a_u_p?



STARVATION AT REMAGEN

After the capture of the Remagen Bridge, the US Army hastily erected dozens of Prisoner of War cages around the bridge-head. The camps were simply open fields surrounded by concertina wire. Those at the Rhine Meadows were situated at Remagen, .....

in most cases was completely absent. All roads leading to the camps were clogged with hundreds of trucks bringing in even more prisoners, sent to the rear by the advancing 9th.US Army. By April 15, 1945, 1.3 million prisoners were in American hands."

1.3 million prisoners with no facilities for handling them. Not a choice for the US army then, it was forced on them. I blame Hitler for not surrendering earlier when it was clear the war was lost. There was far more suffering than just this at the end of the war for the Germans.

[Kodiak]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
1.3 million prisoners with no facilities for handling them. Not a choice for the US army then, it was forced on them. I blame Hitler for not surrendering earlier when it was clear the war was lost. There was far more suffering than just this at the end of the war for the Germans.

Is it any coincidence that you ignored the pertinent parts?


STARVATION AT REMAGEN


"...Herded into the open spaces like cattle, some were beaten and mistreated. No tents or toilets were supplied. The camps became huge latrines, a sea of urine from one end to the other. They had to sleep in holes in the ground which they dug with their bare hands. In the Bad Kreuznach cage, 560,000 men were interned in an area that could only comfortably hold 45,000. Denied enough food and water, they were forced to eat the grass under their feet and the camps soon became a sea of mud. After the concentration camps were discovered, their treatment became worse as the GIs vented their rage on the hapless prisoners.

In the five camps around Bretzenheim, prisoners had to survive on 600-850 calories per day. With bloated bellies and teeth falling out, they died by the thousands. During the two and a half months (April-May, 1945) when the camps were under American control, a total of 18,100 prisoners died from malnutrition, disease and exposure. This extremely harsh treatment at the hands of the Americans resulted in the deaths of over 50,000 German prisoners of war in the Rhine Meadows camps alone in the months just before and after the war ended..."


"Roosevelt's Willing Executioners", right a_u_p?


How many Iraqi captives have died at the hands of "Bush's Willing Executioners", a_u_p?