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Old 13th January 2012, 12:05 PM   #1
The Dark Lord
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Why does god let children get cancer?

If god is actually ominpotenent, it could prevent children from dying horrible deaths from cancer simply by thinking it. Yet children die from cancer every day. I can think of only three answers. God does not exist. God is not omnipetent. God does not care what happens to children.

If there are more answers, I would love to hear them but please none of the "God works in mysterious ways" crap.
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:25 PM   #2
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God rather wants children to die than to be raised with another religion, like Voodoo. Just taking one from DOC's playbook, see this thread.
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:31 PM   #3
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God isn't a guy with a plan. You know what he is? He's a dog chasing cars. He wouldn't know what to do if he caught one. You know, he just... does things. He's not a monster, he's just ahead of the curve.
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:32 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
God rather wants children to die than to be raised with another religion, like Voodoo. Just taking one from DOC's playbook, see this thread.
That's pretty crazy. I don't have time to go through that thread. I am assuming that it was pointed out that children from good, Christian familes die from cancer? And that most children raised in Vodoo do not? Do you remember his response by chance?
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:35 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
That's pretty crazy. I don't have time to go through that thread. I am assuming that it was pointed out that children from good, Christian familes die from cancer? And that most children raised in Vodoo do not? Do you remember his response by chance?
My apologies for burdening you with DOCisms. His answer from that thread, as I remember it, is as below.
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:37 PM   #6
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The most common answer i see from believers is god is punishing and/or testing the child and/or those closest to him or her.
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:39 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
If god is actually ominpotenent, it could prevent children from dying horrible deaths from cancer simply by thinking it. Yet children die from cancer every day. I can think of only three answers. God does not exist. God is not omnipetent. God does not care what happens to children.

If there are more answers, I would love to hear them but please none of the "God works in mysterious ways" crap.
If you're excluding crappy answers, this should be a pretty short thread.
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:40 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
My apologies for burdening you with DOCisms. His answer from that thread, as I remember it, is as below.
Figures. I see that he is still active here. Pehaps he will clear it up.
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:42 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by SumDood View Post
The most common answer i see from believers is god is punishing and/or testing the child and/or those closest to him or her.
Yep, because he loves them so much. That's why I often refuse to take my children's pets out of the traps aroudn the yard and let them suffer slowly and painfully...just to test them and make sure they (the kids) will still follow my rules and won't turn away from me. And to make sure they'll turn to me in their grief.

It's all done out of love, really.


Funny how the behaviors ascribed to a loving god are often the same behaviors we would associate with a sociopath, ain't it?
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:52 PM   #10
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Best explanation I've seen so far: http://www.mrdeity.com/
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:52 PM   #11
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Suffering is necessary to value the human experience in ways that you won't understand until you're dead. Yep. Not mysterious ways though, nope.
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:53 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
Figures. I see that he is still active here.
And repeating the same stuff as if it hasn't been debunked for the umptieth time.

Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
Pehaps he will clear it up.
Hope springs eternal.
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Old 13th January 2012, 01:17 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yep, because he loves them so much. That's why I often refuse to take my children's pets out of the traps aroudn the yard and let them suffer slowly and painfully...just to test them and make sure they (the kids) will still follow my rules and won't turn away from me. And to make sure they'll turn to me in their grief.

It's all done out of love, really.


Funny how the behaviors ascribed to a loving god are often the same behaviors we would associate with a sociopath, ain't it?
Speaking of which, why would god allow dogs/other pets to get cancer/other horrible diseases? The dog won't learn to appreciate anything from its suffering. And if the purpose is to teach people something (horrible!) then what about, say, Chronic Wasting Disease, which kills deer slowly in places no one will ever be able to see them suffer...
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Old 13th January 2012, 01:19 PM   #14
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My youngest daughter had brain cancer, Doc and edge said it was my fault.
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Old 13th January 2012, 01:23 PM   #15
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How about God is calling back their souls to heaven and has them suffer in their short life as a message to others (to elicit compassion and the like). There are plenty of other possibilities.

My favorite essentially boils down to the "doesn't care" option, but on the basis that HP Lovecraft's stories are correct, god(s) is (are) a() monstrous insane cosmic horror(s) beyond human comprehension who couldn't care less about humanity. Too many atheists limit themselves to variations of the judeo-christian deity in their arguments relating to the existence of god(s). Lovecraftian gods make much more sense from an empirical perspective (that is, there's no assumption of benevolence, and humans aren't any special from a Lovecraftian perspective, so that's another set of arguments against the existence of god(s) that become moot as well).
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Old 13th January 2012, 02:29 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
If god is actually ominpotenent, it could prevent children from dying horrible deaths from cancer simply by thinking it. Yet children die from cancer every day. I can think of only three answers. God does not exist. God is not omnipetent. God does not care what happens to children.

If there are more answers, I would love to hear them but please none of the "God works in mysterious ways" crap.
wouldn't you want the cutest kids to "come home"?
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Old 13th January 2012, 02:58 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Bill Thompson View Post
wouldn't you want the cutest kids to "come home"?
Maybe god is protecting the kids from Catholic priests. They will be safer in heaven.
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Old 13th January 2012, 03:05 PM   #18
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Hmmmm. If god exists, then it's all a part of the grand scheme of things. If god doesn't exist, then chalk it up to bad stuff happens to people. Cancer happens, one way or the other.
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Old 13th January 2012, 03:09 PM   #19
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they are born in sin and they suck at this whole repent stuff.
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Old 13th January 2012, 03:59 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
If god is actually ominpotenent, it could prevent children from dying horrible deaths from cancer simply by thinking it. Yet children die from cancer every day. I can think of only three answers. God does not exist. God is not omnipetent. God does not care what happens to children.

If there are more answers, I would love to hear them but please none of the "God works in mysterious ways" crap.
Those seem to cover all cases to me, although I would reword the third option to "God prefers a world where human children die of cancer than one without such tragedies."
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Old 13th January 2012, 04:33 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
My youngest daughter had brain cancer, Doc and edge said it was my fault.
Well, at least that suggests that God is not the biggest douchebag in the universe.
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Old 13th January 2012, 04:35 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Well, at least that suggests that God is not the biggest douchebag in the universe.
I suppose that god made those two in his own image.
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Old 13th January 2012, 04:39 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
If god is actually ominpotenent, it could prevent children from dying horrible deaths from cancer simply by thinking it. Yet children die from cancer every day. I can think of only three answers. God does not exist. God is not omnipetent. God does not care what happens to children.

If there are more answers, I would love to hear them but please none of the "God works in mysterious ways" crap.
It doesn't exist - BUT if it does we must find and destroy it.
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Old 13th January 2012, 04:40 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
If god is actually ominpotenent, it could prevent children from dying horrible deaths from cancer simply by thinking it. Yet children die from cancer every day. I can think of only three answers. God does not exist. God is not omnipetent. God does not care what happens to children.

If there are more answers, I would love to hear them but please none of the "God works in mysterious ways" crap.
Maybe God is answering my prayers.
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Old 13th January 2012, 05:48 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
I can think of only three answers. God does not exist. God is not omnipetent. God does not care what happens to children.

If there are more answers, I would love to hear them but please none of the "God works in mysterious ways" crap.

"I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," Exodus 20:5


Obviously the kid's great-grandfather hated god.

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Old 13th January 2012, 06:10 PM   #26
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The biblical God is not real. Gosh, are we suprised to discover this?

What is more is this. Nature is not our friend. Surpised again?
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Old 13th January 2012, 06:48 PM   #27
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-Hes doing it to test the parents faith
-Hes doing it to test your faith
-God is punishing parents for sin
-God is punishing baby for potentially becoming the next hitler
-God is showing you that he is all you need when he is all you have
-God wants him in heaven because hes lonely
-God wants him in heaven right away for this or that
-God is punishing a countrys children for collective sin (IE: society endorsing homosexuality)
-God is testing the baby
-Satan did it (God let it happen for any above reason)

All are sound, logical and rational answers. I can see why this faith stuff is so popular.
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Old 13th January 2012, 07:06 PM   #28
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In Hinduism the suffering of any creature is due to sins in ITS past life. So a child suffering cancer now must have been a sinful person in the previous lifetime.

If you consider the Abrahamic religions then the Bible says it VERY CLEARLY…. God F****** little children because their parents did not OBEY him. Notice.... no christian or jew or moslim is able to obey his laws perfectly....so there is always a way out by saying you did not obey the laws enough.

Exodus 20:5
Quote:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Deuteronomy 28:
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53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the LORD your God— 59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God. 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.
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Old 13th January 2012, 08:28 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
If god is actually ominpotenent, it could prevent children from dying horrible deaths from cancer simply by thinking it. Yet children die from cancer every day. I can think of only three answers. God does not exist. God is not omnipetent. God does not care what happens to children.

If there are more answers, I would love to hear them but please none of the "God works in mysterious ways" crap.

I'm never very moved by questions like this. Once you concede the existence of God, you have to concede that he is beyond morality viz: God's knowledge of how the universe works is so superior to our own that he is able to predict outcomes where people cannot. God basically has the same power as Sarah and John Connor - knowing that future losses will be astronomical if they don't act, they can basically kill any individual in pursuit of the greater good.

So, why does God let children die from cancer? Because God has knowledge superior to our own that these deaths are for the best, whatever that means.

There are stronger arguments against the existence of God than saying that this God appears to be acting differently than we would if we were gods.
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Old 13th January 2012, 08:44 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I'm never very moved by questions like this. Once you concede the existence of God, you have to concede that he is beyond morality viz: God's knowledge of how the universe works is so superior to our own that he is able to predict outcomes where people cannot. God basically has the same power as Sarah and John Connor - knowing that future losses will be astronomical if they don't act, they can basically kill any individual in pursuit of the greater good.

So, why does God let children die from cancer? Because God has knowledge superior to our own that these deaths are for the best, whatever that means.

There are stronger arguments against the existence of God than saying that this God appears to be acting differently than we would if we were gods.

TL;DR?

Ants cant possibly fathom us, the same way we cant fathom god.
Problem, Logic?
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Old 13th January 2012, 08:51 PM   #31
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Looks like God is accumulating lots of bad Karma, dude.
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Old 13th January 2012, 09:17 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
If god is actually ominpotenent, it could prevent children from dying horrible deaths from cancer simply by thinking it. Yet children die from cancer every day. I can think of only three answers. God does not exist. God is not omnipetent. God does not care what happens to children.

If there are more answers, I would love to hear them but please none of the "God works in mysterious ways" crap.
The problem is known as theodicy:
Quote:
The fundamental dilemma of theodicy is the problem of evil: its continuing existence and God's apparent inability or unwillingness to eradicate it.
Ehrman wrote a whole book about it which is an excellent read.
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Old 13th January 2012, 09:23 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
My youngest daughter had brain cancer, Doc and edge said it was my fault.

That's horrible.
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Old 13th January 2012, 09:34 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I'm never very moved by questions like this. Once you concede the existence of God, you have to concede that he is beyond morality viz: God's knowledge of how the universe works is so superior to our own that he is able to predict outcomes where people cannot. God basically has the same power as Sarah and John Connor - knowing that future losses will be astronomical if they don't act, they can basically kill any individual in pursuit of the greater good.

So, why does God let children die from cancer? Because God has knowledge superior to our own that these deaths are for the best, whatever that means.

There are stronger arguments against the existence of God than saying that this God appears to be acting differently than we would if we were gods.
God is omnipotent and omniscient yet can't think of a better way to do things than having children die from cancer?

Don't buy it.
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Old 13th January 2012, 09:40 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
The problem is known as theodicy:


Ehrman wrote a whole book about it which is an excellent read.
Thanks. I just bought it.
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Old 13th January 2012, 09:42 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
God is omnipotent and omniscient yet can't think of a better way to do things than having children die from cancer?

Don't buy it.

Once you concede the existence of God, you don't have to buy it. My four year-old has absolutely no idea why he's not allowed to work the blender. And no amount of explanation satisfies him. He is simply incapable of understanding the problem from my vantage point.

Would you demand that all planes be grounded because you don't know how to fly? Would you insist that man never landed on the moon because you don't know how orbital mechanics works?

Of course you wouldn't. You would trust that the people who knew more than you were actually able to fly, even to the moon. The only difference between them and God is that their knowledge is so limited, so poor, and so elementary that you could follow their reasoning with sufficient effort.

Once you give God omniscience, you lose the right to question his actions based on your understanding of the universe.

Of course, God doesn't exist. And I think that's the better argument. "Hey, I wouldn't do it that way," doesn't work with my four year-old and I don't think it works in theology.
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Old 13th January 2012, 10:26 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Once you concede the existence of God, you don't have to buy it. My four year-old has absolutely no idea why he's not allowed to work the blender. And no amount of explanation satisfies him. He is simply incapable of understanding the problem from my vantage point.

Would you demand that all planes be grounded because you don't know how to fly? Would you insist that man never landed on the moon because you don't know how orbital mechanics works?

Of course you wouldn't. You would trust that the people who knew more than you were actually able to fly, even to the moon. The only difference between them and God is that their knowledge is so limited, so poor, and so elementary that you could follow their reasoning with sufficient effort.

Once you give God omniscience, you lose the right to question his actions based on your understanding of the universe.

Of course, God doesn't exist. And I think that's the better argument. "Hey, I wouldn't do it that way," doesn't work with my four year-old and I don't think it works in theology.
No you don't. Even assuming an all-powerful, all-knowing god exists, it doesn't follow that its (in)actions serve anything but itself. There would be no reason to assume that killing kids via cancer is for the best.
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Old 13th January 2012, 10:30 PM   #38
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He doesn't get it.
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Old 13th January 2012, 10:30 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by The Dark Lord View Post
There would be no reason to assume that killing kids via cancer is for the best.
OTOH, there would be no reason to not make that assumption either.
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Old 13th January 2012, 10:37 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Once you concede the existence of God, you don't have to buy it. My four year-old has absolutely no idea why he's not allowed to work the blender. And no amount of explanation satisfies him. He is simply incapable of understanding the problem from my vantage point.

Would you demand that all planes be grounded because you don't know how to fly? Would you insist that man never landed on the moon because you don't know how orbital mechanics works?

Of course you wouldn't. You would trust that the people who knew more than you were actually able to fly, even to the moon. The only difference between them and God is that their knowledge is so limited, so poor, and so elementary that you could follow their reasoning with sufficient effort.

Once you give God omniscience, you lose the right to question his actions based on your understanding of the universe.

Of course, God doesn't exist. And I think that's the better argument. "Hey, I wouldn't do it that way," doesn't work with my four year-old and I don't think it works in theology.


The difference between you and your son and us and God is that your son can see you and he can talk to you and he can hear you saying to him don't do it.

Also you do not kill your daughter and when your son asks you why you tell him to shut up since he does not understand.


So this argument that god has a WISE REASON for KILLING is only acceptable to genuflecting, servile, cowardly morons.

If god is omnipotent and omniscient and omnibenevolent then killing little children by the millions is not excusable for any possible reason within our comprehension or without.

If there are no other means to achieve his objective other than to create and kill people then he is not omnipotent and thus not a god.

If there is another way and he does not see it then he is not omniscient and thus not a god.

If there is another way which he can choose and he knows about it but yet does not choose it then he is not omnibenevolent and thus not a god.

If he is just a powerful being that can do things as he wishes but within the restriction of circumstance and physical laws then he is nothing but an alien equivalent of Bush or Saddam or Hitler and decisively not a god.

If you elect to truckle under the will of a celestial despot out of cowardly obscene then that is your choice. But you must then admit that you are nothing more than a minion for a celestial Stalin not a god.

Or....you have to admit that there is no god and it is just the way nature rolls.

So....no.... the argument about the problem of evil is a valid argument...THEODICY…. and is a powerful argument and is for me the final thread in the pall over the coffin in which the heinous concept of a god was finally laid to rests.
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Last edited by Leumas; 13th January 2012 at 10:42 PM.
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