Seeking agreement with atheists instead of disagreement to resolve the God debate. - Page 6

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

Dave, we have talked before, just you wait, when dafydd retires I will talk to you in earnest and hope you can understand my speech and writing.

Gerry

I am retired, on a pension. Why should we call the god delusion a 'concept'? And Dave will not fall for whichever gotcha! that you are aiming for this time. The clue is in the word 'godless'.

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

Dave, we have talked before, just you wait, when dafydd retires I will talk to you in earnest and hope you can understand my speech and writing.

Gerry

You do realize that he tore your post to shreds?

catsmate1 · 19th January 2012, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Seeking agreement with atheists instead of disagreement to resolve the God debate.

It's simple; once you accept the non-existence of a god, atheists will agree with you. While you continue to push the god botherer line they will not agree, on that subject/.

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 02:33 PM

Yrreg, just agree that god does not exist and we are done here.

catsmate1 · 19th January 2012, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

About the multiverse, since we are not living there and we have no access whatever there, and it does not have access to us,

Will you be providing evidence for this assertion? Many physicists would like a definitive answer to the question of the existence of other universes.

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate1

Will you be providing evidence for this assertion? Many physicists would like a definitive answer to the question of the existence of other universes.

You must know Yrreg by now. He doesn't do evidence.

catsmate1 · 19th January 2012, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

You need to distinguish between "a concept of a unicorn" and "a unicorn".

The former exists; the latter does not.

Not yet.

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 02:40 PM

Wrong thread?

catsmate1 · 19th January 2012, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Sledge

Why do so many religious types start threads then complain that people are responding to them?

It's not that we're responding but thay we're responding wrong.
When a god botherer starts a thread like this he (and it always seems to be a he) tends to have it all planned out, including the responses they expect from non-believers and the counters to those responses. When we deviate from their imaginary script it annoys them.

catsmate1 · 19th January 2012, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Can we all Atheists agree that Yrreg doesn't have a clue what he's talking about?

Well I agree; unlike Yrreg I don't attempt to speak for everyone else.

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate1

It's not that we're responding but thay we're responding wrong.
When a god botherer starts a thread like this he (and it always seems to be a he) tends to have it all planned out, including the responses they expect from non-believers and the counters to those responses. When we deviate from their imaginary script it annoys them.

The fact that no believers are joining in speaks volumes. Come on, you lurking theists, join in. Your fellow Christian is in dire need of help.

yrreg · 19th January 2012, 02:53 PM

Well. dafydd, if you just want to obstruct any viable communication with me, you will insist that there is no information at all that you care to talk with me about, in regard to the concept of God in the Christian faith.

I will just ask you to look up any reference work like an almanac and look up the Christian faith, as I am sure there is information about the concept of God in the Christian faith, and then if you care we can talk about the information in public reference works where there is an entry on the Christian faith or Christianity.

Otherwise I can see clearly that it is impossible to have any viable communication with you on the topic of this thread at all.

Gerry

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

Well. dafydd, if you just want to obstruct any viable communication with me, you will insist that there is no information at all that you care to talk with me about, in regard to the concept of God in the Christian faith.

I will just ask you to look up any reference work like an almanac and look up the Christian faith, as I am sure there is information about the concept of God in the Christian faith, and then if you care we can talk about the information in public reference works where there is an entry on the Christian faith or Christianity.

Otherwise I can see clearly that it is impossible to have any viable communication with you on the topic of this thread at all.

Gerry

Present some of this information here then we can discuss it. Do you know what an almanac is?

''An almanac (also spelled almanack and almanach) is an annual publication that includes information such as weather forecasts, farmers' planting dates, tide tables, and tabular information in a particular field or fields often arranged according to the calendar etc. Astronomical data and various statistics are also found in almanacs, such as the times of the rising and setting of the sun and moon, eclipses, hours of full tide, stated festivals of churches, terms of courts, lists of all types, timelines, and more.''

Why would an almanac be relevant? I presume you meant an encyclopedia.

''Christianity, Christ as Ruler, with the Apostles and Evangelists (represented by the beasts). The female figures … [Credit: De Antonis]major religion, stemming from the life, teachings, and death of Jesus of Nazareth (the Christ, or the Anointed One of God) in the 1st century ad. It has become the largest of the world’s religions. Geographically the most widely diffused of all faiths, it has a constituency of more than 2 billion believers. Its largest groups are the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the Protestant churches; in addition to these churches there are several independent churches of Eastern Christianity as well as numerous sects throughout the world. See also Eastern Orthodoxy; Roman Catholicism; ... '' The Encyclopedia Brittanica.

yrreg · 19th January 2012, 03:06 PM

Will I just agree with atheists that God does not exist and the conversation will be over?

Well, we are not into agreement on what is already controversial to some people for example that God exists, I am trying to come to agreement with atheists on things which are already obviously existing like you and me and the universe.

If people will not agree with me that we exist people and myself, and the universe exists, then this forum should be no venue for them to be in.

Now, from the fact of the existence of us humans and the existence of the universe where we are living in, I am trying to get atheists to agree with me or they to make me agree with them on the contents of the universe.

No, I am not into coming to agreement with atheists about God not existing or God existing, but into agreement on things that humans already know to exist in actual objective reality.

However, and forgive me, from what we agree to exist on actual objective reality, then the road is clear we can see to the controversial issue of the question whether God does exist, or in fact does not exist.

Again, and the sight at the end of the tunnel is that God does not exist or God exists in actual objective reality.

-----------------

Now, if atheists here will insist that for them there is no God, period.

Well, then they have to only declare so, and not anymore talk with me, and perhaps to tell me to just get out from their forum, and period.

Gerry

yrreg · 19th January 2012, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Present some of this information here then we can discuss it. Do you know what an almanac is?

''An almanac (also spelled almanack and almanach) is an annual publication that includes information such as weather forecasts, farmers' planting dates, tide tables, and tabular information in a particular field or fields often arranged according to the calendar etc. Astronomical data and various statistics are also found in almanacs, such as the times of the rising and setting of the sun and moon, eclipses, hours of full tide, stated festivals of churches, terms of courts, lists of all types, timelines, and more.''

Why would an almanac be relevant? I presume you meant an encyclopedia.

''Christianity, Christ as Ruler, with the Apostles and Evangelists (represented by the beasts). The female figures … [Credit: De Antonis]major religion, stemming from the life, teachings, and death of Jesus of Nazareth (the Christ, or the Anointed One of God) in the 1st century ad. It has become the largest of the world’s religions. Geographically the most widely diffused of all faiths, it has a constituency of more than 2 billion believers. Its largest groups are the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the Protestant churches; in addition to these churches there are several independent churches of Eastern Christianity as well as numerous sects throughout the world. See also Eastern Orthodoxy; Roman Catholicism; ... '' The Encyclopedia Brittanica.

Thanks, dafydd, you are still around.

Look up a reference work where it has a mention of God in Christianity.

I will also look up one.

Gerry

zooterkin · 19th January 2012, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

Now, if atheists here will insist that for them there is no God, period.

What exactly do you think 'atheist' means?

Quote:

Well, then they have to only declare so, and not anymore talk with me, and perhaps to tell me to just get out from their forum, and period.

This is not an atheist forum.

Do you not see the insanity in asking atheists to agree with you about the existence of god? What do you hope to achieve?

nikretooz

jond · 19th January 2012, 03:19 PM

Yyreg, everyone here agrees that the concept of "god" exists. over the years thousands of "god" concepts have been thought up, including but by no means limited to your christian concept. But, much like unicorns, fairies, and invisible dragons: there is no evidence for any of these things. So, like Bacchus, xenu, or Zeus, most of us simply do not believe that your christian "god" exists. why is this so hard for you to understand?

yrreg · 19th January 2012, 03:19 PM

I am not asking that atheists agree with me that God exists.

I am asking atheists to agree with me on things which are generally known to mankind to exist, for example, we humans and the universe.

Gerry

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

Will I just agree with atheists that God does not exist and the conversation will be over?

Yes

Quote:

Well, we are not into agreement on what is already controversial to some people for example that God exists, I am trying to come to agreement with atheists on things which are already obviously existing like you and me and the universe.

There is no argument about this. Both you and I and the universe exist. I have no idea why you keep bringing this up'

Quote:

If people will not agree with me that we exist people and myself, and the universe exists, then this forum should be no venue for them to be in.

Nobody is saying that you and the universe do not exist. Once again. I have no idea why you say that.

Quote:

However, and forgive me, from what we agree to exist on actual objective reality, then the road is clear we can see to the controversial issue of the question whether God does exist, or in fact does not exist.

The question of whether any god does exist is a matter of faith.

Quote:

Again, and the sight at the end of the tunnel is that God does not exist or God exists in actual objective reality.

The sight at the end of the tunnel is a big neon sign saying ' There is no evidence of the existence of any god'.

-----------------

Quote:

Now, if atheists here will insist that for them there is no God, period.

Well, then they have to only declare so, and not anymore talk with me, and perhaps to tell me to just get out from their forum, and period.

That's your decision. You will never convince any atheist here that any god exists. I find your posts amusing, that's why I'm carrying on. I have no idea why you are persisting.

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

I am not asking that atheists agree with me that God exists.

I am asking atheists to agree with me on things which are generally known to mankind to exist, for example, we humans and the universe.

Gerry

How many times? We agree that humans and the universe exist.

yrreg · 19th January 2012, 03:27 PM

And I am now exchanging thoughts with dafydd on what is the public nformation about the concept of God in the Christian faith in His God's fundamental relation to the universe.

I told dafydd that he could look up a reference work where there is mention of the concept of God in the Christian faith, and I will also do likewise.

Here is a public reference work on the Christian faith, the Apostles' Creed, and it has the following first line on what Christians believe about the concept of God and the existence of God:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm

Gerry

yrreg · 19th January 2012, 03:28 PM

Now, dafydd, we will work on agreeing what is evidence.

Gerry

yrreg · 19th January 2012, 03:29 PM

Do we have any public and free information in the web on what is evidence?

Gerry

yrreg · 19th January 2012, 03:31 PM

Sorry, I have to leave for a while, but I will also go look up any free public web information on what is evidence.

Gerry

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

And I am now exchanging thoughts with dafydd on what is the public nformation about the concept of God in the Christian faith in His God's fundamental relation to the universe.

I told dafydd that he could look up a reference work where there is mention of the concept of God in the Christian faith, and I will also do likewise.

Here is a public reference work on the Christian faith, the Apostles' Creed, and it has the following first line on what Christians believe about the concept of God and the existence of God:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm

Gerry

A fairy tale.

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

Do we have any public and free information in the web on what is evidence?

Gerry

You don't know what evidence is? If you don't have any evidence then why do you believe in the existence of a god?

ctamblyn · 19th January 2012, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

Sold!

Complexity · 19th January 2012, 04:13 PM

Now, dafydd, he's your friend.

I hereby delegate you, to infinity and beyond, to interact with yrreg on my behalf.

(he makes buddha giggle)

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Complexity

Now, dafydd, he's your friend.

I hereby delegate you, to infinity and beyond, to interact with yrreg on my behalf.

(he makes buddha giggle)

Now I'm starting to believe in bad karma.

ctamblyn · 19th January 2012, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

Thanks ctamblyn for your reply.

I will not waste our time over inconsequential questions.

I am talking about the universe is not just sub-atomic particles and physical forces and physical laws and laws of nature.

It is composed of human beings, of other animate beings and also inanimate things like the sun and the moon and the stars in the sky.

You don't need evidence to know that the universe is not just sub-atomic particles, etc., but in its actual status it is composed of human beings even though they human beings make up a minuscule portion of the universe, and also other animate beings: animals and plants, etc., and also inanimate things like the sun, the moon, the stars, etc. in the sky, in space.

Yes all such beings and things are ultimately composed you submit of sub-atomic particles, etc.

But sub-atomic particles do not a universe make unless they undergo processes by which human beings come about and also etc. -- as I mention repeatedly.

I don't understand your suggestion that the universe would not be a universe if it did not produce humans. Even if humans did not exist, the universe would still meet the definition I adopted earlier.

Originally Posted by yrreg

Now, you want evidence for some being like God Who in the Christian faith is taken to be in His fundamental relation to the universe the creator of everything in the universe.

You demand evidence for His presence in the universe.

I agree with you.

Well, actually you started this thread. I'm not demanding anything, I'm just mildly curious as to where his is going...

But yes, it is fair to say that if you want to convince anyone here, you're probably going to need some evidence.

Originally Posted by yrreg

Would you care to agree with me that in the Christian faith the concept of God in His fundamental relation to the universe is that He is the creator of everything in the universe?

I mean you have that information of such a concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the universe, namely, creator of everything in the universe, not that you accept the reality of God to be the creator of everything in the universe.

Tell me in case you do not have the acquaintance of the concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the unverse...

What are your ideas of God?

I need your ideas of God so that we can work together to come to a concurring concept of God, and then we will look for God in the universe according to the concept we both agree to be accepted by us both insofar as the concept is concerned.

For the purposes of discussion, I'm happy to use your definition of "God".

Originally Posted by yrreg

Once, we have agreed on what concept of God we both agree on, then we will also work together to concur on what is evidence which you state you need to have to come to the existence of among other things God in the universe, this time the existence of, but in accordance with the concept we agree on -- when we have come to agree on the concept of God.

Gerry

OK, well as I said I'll use your definition of "God". I'll happily look at whatever evidence you've got, and tell you how convincing I find it.

ctamblyn · 19th January 2012, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by joolz

Hmmm maybe ctamblyn IS god? Must have special powers at least as ctamblyn seems to the the only one yrreg will answer http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...pictureid=5417

Or maybe the rest of us are invisible - neat - I've always wanted superpower!

Let's put it to the test...

*tries to turn Coke into Pepsi*

Nope.

dafydd · 19th January 2012, 04:46 PM

Does Yrreg really think that there was no universe before there were humans?

ctamblyn · 19th January 2012, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Does Yrreg really think that there was no universe before there were humans?

I think it goes something like this:

Time began.
Humans appeared on the scene, and the universe became a proper universe.
We know this by looking at our noses.

devnull · 19th January 2012, 05:11 PM

Yrreg:

Your definition of the christian god is a little lacking. The christian god is not limited to merely creating the universe, but is said to have maintained some level of control over it. What you describe is more of a deist position.

For the sake of simplicity, why dont you move forward using the concept of a deist god? Or perhaps expand your definition of the christian god to include it's ability to directly affect the universe, impregnate virgins, send itself in human form, listen and react to prayer etc

SezMe · 19th January 2012, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

If people will not agree with me that we exist people and myself, and the universe exists, then this forum should be no venue for them to be in.

I'll argue that whether or not people exist depends on your point of view. If you are a sub-atomic particle, then we don't exist. There's a proton here and a electron over there but we're mostly just empty space. There certainly is no boundary between people and not-people. At most there is a particle density gradient.

If you are a galaxy 10 billion light years away, then there is no evidence at all that people exist. Or moons. Or planets. There's some photons coming from that direction but that's it.

But suppose you're just the right size to see this thing you call people. There still is no such thing as an individual person. There's a colony of living and non-living things there. A collective. A collaboration. But certainly not a single, individual organism.

So I disagree with your starting premise. Does that mean I can't post here any more?

Ron_Tomkins · 19th January 2012, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by yrreg

My daughter is calling me to breakfast, I will be back.

Gerry

Can we all agree that your daughter is calling you for breakfast or do we need first to agree on the definition of "breakfast" for us to agree on that?

tsig · 19th January 2012, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Complexity

Now, dafydd, he's your friend.

I hereby delegate you, to infinity and beyond, to interact with yrreg on my behalf.

(he makes buddha giggle)

I approve of this message.

Go DAVID!!

Kid Eager · 19th January 2012, 06:10 PM

yikes.... even my deja vu is having deja vu at this point. This is the part of the thread where yrreg redefines "evidence", if my memory serves me correctly.

However, as Daffyd as volunteered to be the interpreter, I yield the floor....

Ray Brady · 19th January 2012, 06:24 PM

In a feeble attempt to move things forward, I'm going to offer a definition of "evidence". How's this:

Information that can be used to evaluate the validity of a claim.

Complexity · 19th January 2012, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by devnull

Yrreg:

Your definition of the christian god is a little lacking. The christian god is not limited to merely creating the universe, but is said to have maintained some level of control over it. What you describe is more of a deist position.

For the sake of simplicity, why dont you move forward using the concept of a deist god? Or perhaps expand your definition of the christian god to include it's ability to directly affect the universe, impregnate virgins, send itself in human form, listen and react to prayer etc

Yrreg hasn't yet advanced to the concept of the 'buddha christ'. This is one of the main reasons he's had trouble being taken seriously.

'christ' is so much more acceptable if you can rub his belly for luck.

19th January 2012, 02:28 PM	#201
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by yrreg Dave, we have talked before, just you wait, when dafydd retires I will talk to you in earnest and hope you can understand my speech and writing. Gerry I am retired, on a pension. Why should we call the god delusion a 'concept'? And Dave will not fall for whichever gotcha! that you are aiming for this time. The clue is in the word 'godless'.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away. Last edited by dafydd; 19th January 2012 at 02:33 PM.

19th January 2012, 02:29 PM	#202
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by yrreg Dave, we have talked before, just you wait, when dafydd retires I will talk to you in earnest and hope you can understand my speech and writing. Gerry You do realize that he tore your post to shreds?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th January 2012, 02:33 PM	#204
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Yrreg, just agree that god does not exist and we are done here.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th January 2012, 02:36 PM	#206
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by catsmate1 Will you be providing evidence for this assertion? Many physicists would like a definitive answer to the question of the existence of other universes. You must know Yrreg by now. He doesn't do evidence.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th January 2012, 02:40 PM	#208
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Wrong thread?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th January 2012, 02:30 PM	#203
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,134	Quote: Seeking agreement with atheists instead of disagreement to resolve the God debate. It's simple; once you accept the non-existence of a god, atheists will agree with you. While you continue to push the god botherer line they will not agree, on that subject/.

19th January 2012, 02:35 PM	#205
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,134	Originally Posted by yrreg About the multiverse, since we are not living there and we have no access whatever there, and it does not have access to us, Will you be providing evidence for this assertion? Many physicists would like a definitive answer to the question of the existence of other universes.

19th January 2012, 02:38 PM	#207
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,134	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ You need to distinguish between "a concept of a unicorn" and "a unicorn". The former exists; the latter does not. Not *yet*.

19th January 2012, 02:40 PM	#209
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,134	Originally Posted by Sledge Why do so many religious types start threads then complain that people are responding to them? It's not that we're responding but thay we're responding wrong. When a god botherer starts a thread like this he (and it always seems to be a he) tends to have it all planned out, including the responses they expect from non-believers and the counters to those responses. When we deviate from their imaginary script it annoys them.

19th January 2012, 02:42 PM	#210
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,134	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins Can we all Atheists agree that Yrreg doesn't have a clue what he's talking about? Well I agree; unlike Yrreg I don't attempt to speak for everyone else.

19th January 2012, 02:42 PM	#211
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by catsmate1 It's not that we're responding but thay we're responding wrong. When a god botherer starts a thread like this he (and it always seems to be a he) tends to have it all planned out, including the responses they expect from non-believers and the counters to those responses. When we deviate from their imaginary script it annoys them. The fact that no believers are joining in speaks volumes. Come on, you lurking theists, join in. Your fellow Christian is in dire need of help.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away. Last edited by dafydd; 19th January 2012 at 02:44 PM.

19th January 2012, 02:53 PM	#212
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329	Well. dafydd, if you just want to obstruct any viable communication with me, you will insist that there is no information at all that you care to talk with me about, in regard to the concept of God in the Christian faith. I will just ask you to look up any reference work like an almanac and look up the Christian faith, as I am sure there is information about the concept of God in the Christian faith, and then if you care we can talk about the information in public reference works where there is an entry on the Christian faith or Christianity. Otherwise I can see clearly that it is impossible to have any viable communication with you on the topic of this thread at all. Gerry
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329

19th January 2012, 02:55 PM	#213
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by yrreg Well. dafydd, if you just want to obstruct any viable communication with me, you will insist that there is no information at all that you care to talk with me about, in regard to the concept of God in the Christian faith. I will just ask you to look up any reference work like an almanac and look up the Christian faith, as I am sure there is information about the concept of God in the Christian faith, and then if you care we can talk about the information in public reference works where there is an entry on the Christian faith or Christianity. Otherwise I can see clearly that it is impossible to have any viable communication with you on the topic of this thread at all. Gerry Present some of this information here then we can discuss it. Do you know what an almanac is? ''An almanac (also spelled almanack and almanach) is an annual publication that includes information such as weather forecasts, farmers' planting dates, tide tables, and tabular information in a particular field or fields often arranged according to the calendar etc. Astronomical data and various statistics are also found in almanacs, such as the times of the rising and setting of the sun and moon, eclipses, hours of full tide, stated festivals of churches, terms of courts, lists of all types, timelines, and more.'' Why would an almanac be relevant? I presume you meant an encyclopedia. ''Christianity, Christ as Ruler, with the Apostles and Evangelists (represented by the beasts). The female figures … [Credit: De Antonis]major religion, stemming from the life, teachings, and death of Jesus of Nazareth (the Christ, or the Anointed One of God) in the 1st century ad. It has become the largest of the world’s religions. Geographically the most widely diffused of all faiths, it has a constituency of more than 2 billion believers. Its largest groups are the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the Protestant churches; in addition to these churches there are several independent churches of Eastern Christianity as well as numerous sects throughout the world. See also Eastern Orthodoxy; Roman Catholicism; ... '' The Encyclopedia Brittanica.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away. Last edited by dafydd; 19th January 2012 at 02:59 PM.

19th January 2012, 03:06 PM	#214
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329	Will I just agree with atheists that God does not exist and the conversation will be over? Well, we are not into agreement on what is already controversial to some people for example that God exists, I am trying to come to agreement with atheists on things which are already obviously existing like you and me and the universe. If people will not agree with me that we exist people and myself, and the universe exists, then this forum should be no venue for them to be in. Now, from the fact of the existence of us humans and the existence of the universe where we are living in, I am trying to get atheists to agree with me or they to make me agree with them on the contents of the universe. No, I am not into coming to agreement with atheists about God not existing or God existing, but into agreement on things that humans already know to exist in actual objective reality. However, and forgive me, from what we agree to exist on actual objective reality, then the road is clear we can see to the controversial issue of the question whether God does exist, or in fact does not exist. Again, and the sight at the end of the tunnel is that God does not exist or God exists in actual objective reality. ----------------- Now, if atheists here will insist that for them there is no God, period. Well, then they have to only declare so, and not anymore talk with me, and perhaps to tell me to just get out from their forum, and period. Gerry
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329

19th January 2012, 03:09 PM	#215
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329	Originally Posted by dafydd Present some of this information here then we can discuss it. Do you know what an almanac is? ''An almanac (also spelled almanack and almanach) is an annual publication that includes information such as weather forecasts, farmers' planting dates, tide tables, and tabular information in a particular field or fields often arranged according to the calendar etc. Astronomical data and various statistics are also found in almanacs, such as the times of the rising and setting of the sun and moon, eclipses, hours of full tide, stated festivals of churches, terms of courts, lists of all types, timelines, and more.'' Why would an almanac be relevant? I presume you meant an encyclopedia. ''Christianity, Christ as Ruler, with the Apostles and Evangelists (represented by the beasts). The female figures … [Credit: De Antonis]major religion, stemming from the life, teachings, and death of Jesus of Nazareth (the Christ, or the Anointed One of God) in the 1st century ad. It has become the largest of the world’s religions. Geographically the most widely diffused of all faiths, it has a constituency of more than 2 billion believers. Its largest groups are the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the Protestant churches; in addition to these churches there are several independent churches of Eastern Christianity as well as numerous sects throughout the world. See also Eastern Orthodoxy; Roman Catholicism; ... '' The Encyclopedia Brittanica. Thanks, dafydd, you are still around. Look up a reference work where it has a mention of God in Christianity. I will also look up one. Gerry
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329

19th January 2012, 03:14 PM	#216
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,597	Originally Posted by yrreg Now, if atheists here will insist that for them there is no God, period. What exactly do you think 'atheist' means? Quote: Well, then they have to only declare so, and not anymore talk with me, and perhaps to tell me to just get out from their forum, and period. This is not an atheist forum. Do you not see the insanity in asking atheists to agree with you about the existence of god? What do you hope to achieve? nikretooz
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19th January 2012, 03:19 PM	#217
jond Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,414	Yyreg, everyone here agrees that the concept of "god" exists. over the years thousands of "god" concepts have been thought up, including but by no means limited to your christian concept. But, much like unicorns, fairies, and invisible dragons: there is no evidence for any of these things. So, like Bacchus, xenu, or Zeus, most of us simply do not believe that your christian "god" exists. why is this so hard for you to understand?
jond Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,414

19th January 2012, 03:19 PM	#218
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329	I am not asking that atheists agree with me that God exists. I am asking atheists to agree with me on things which are generally known to mankind to exist, for example, we humans and the universe. Gerry
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329

19th January 2012, 03:21 PM	#219
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by yrreg Will I just agree with atheists that God does not exist and the conversation will be over? Yes Quote: Well, we are not into agreement on what is already controversial to some people for example that God exists, I am trying to come to agreement with atheists on things which are already obviously existing like you and me and the universe. There is no argument about this. Both you and I and the universe exist. I have no idea why you keep bringing this up' Quote: If people will not agree with me that we exist people and myself, and the universe exists, then this forum should be no venue for them to be in. Nobody is saying that you and the universe do not exist. Once again. I have no idea why you say that. Quote: However, and forgive me, from what we agree to exist on actual objective reality, then the road is clear we can see to the controversial issue of the question whether God does exist, or in fact does not exist. The question of whether any god does exist is a matter of faith. Quote: Again, and the sight at the end of the tunnel is that God does not exist or God exists in actual objective reality. The sight at the end of the tunnel is a big neon sign saying ' There is no evidence of the existence of any god'. ----------------- Quote: Now, if atheists here will insist that for them there is no God, period. Well, then they have to only declare so, and not anymore talk with me, and perhaps to tell me to just get out from their forum, and period. That's your decision. You will never convince any atheist here that any god exists. I find your posts amusing, that's why I'm carrying on. I have no idea why you are persisting.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away. Last edited by dafydd; 19th January 2012 at 03:23 PM.

19th January 2012, 03:23 PM	#220
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by yrreg I am not asking that atheists agree with me that God exists. I am asking atheists to agree with me on things which are generally known to mankind to exist, for example, we humans and the universe. Gerry How many times? We agree that humans and the universe exist.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th January 2012, 03:27 PM	#221
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329	And I am now exchanging thoughts with dafydd on what is the public nformation about the concept of God in the Christian faith in His God's fundamental relation to the universe. I told dafydd that he could look up a reference work where there is mention of the concept of God in the Christian faith, and I will also do likewise. Here is a public reference work on the Christian faith, the Apostles' Creed, and it has the following first line on what Christians believe about the concept of God and the existence of God: I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm Gerry
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329

19th January 2012, 03:28 PM	#222
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329	Now, dafydd, we will work on agreeing what is evidence. Gerry
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329

19th January 2012, 03:29 PM	#223
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329	Do we have any public and free information in the web on what is evidence? Gerry
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329

19th January 2012, 03:31 PM	#224
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329	Sorry, I have to leave for a while, but I will also go look up any free public web information on what is evidence. Gerry
yrreg Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,329

19th January 2012, 03:39 PM	#225
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by yrreg And I am now exchanging thoughts with dafydd on what is the public nformation about the concept of God in the Christian faith in His God's fundamental relation to the universe. I told dafydd that he could look up a reference work where there is mention of the concept of God in the Christian faith, and I will also do likewise. Here is a public reference work on the Christian faith, the Apostles' Creed, and it has the following first line on what Christians believe about the concept of God and the existence of God: I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm Gerry A fairy tale.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th January 2012, 03:56 PM	#226
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by yrreg Do we have any public and free information in the web on what is evidence? Gerry You don't know what evidence is? If you don't have any evidence then why do you believe in the existence of a god?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th January 2012, 04:08 PM	#227
ctamblyn Deuteranomalous Individual Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 992	Originally Posted by ynot Sold!
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19th January 2012, 04:13 PM	#228
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Now, dafydd, he's your friend. I hereby delegate you, to infinity and beyond, to interact with yrreg on my behalf. (he makes buddha giggle)
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

19th January 2012, 04:29 PM	#229
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Originally Posted by Complexity Now, dafydd, he's your friend. I hereby delegate you, to infinity and beyond, to interact with yrreg on my behalf. (he makes buddha giggle) Now I'm starting to believe in bad karma.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th January 2012, 04:35 PM	#230
ctamblyn Deuteranomalous Individual Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 992	Originally Posted by yrreg Thanks ctamblyn for your reply. I will not waste our time over inconsequential questions. I am talking about the universe is not just sub-atomic particles and physical forces and physical laws and laws of nature. It is composed of human beings, of other animate beings and also inanimate things like the sun and the moon and the stars in the sky. You don't need evidence to know that the universe is not just sub-atomic particles, etc., but in its actual status it is composed of human beings even though they human beings make up a minuscule portion of the universe, and also other animate beings: animals and plants, etc., and also inanimate things like the sun, the moon, the stars, etc. in the sky, in space. Yes all such beings and things are ultimately composed you submit of sub-atomic particles, etc. But sub-atomic particles do not a universe make unless they undergo processes by which human beings come about and also etc. -- as I mention repeatedly. I don't understand your suggestion that the universe would not be a universe if it did not produce humans. Even if humans did not exist, the universe would still meet the definition I adopted earlier. Originally Posted by yrreg Now, you want evidence for some being like God Who in the Christian faith is taken to be in His fundamental relation to the universe the creator of everything in the universe. You demand evidence for His presence in the universe. I agree with you. Well, actually you started this thread. I'm not demanding anything, I'm just mildly curious as to where his is going... But yes, it is fair to say that if you want to convince anyone here, you're probably going to need some evidence. Originally Posted by yrreg Would you care to agree with me that in the Christian faith the concept of God in His fundamental relation to the universe is that He is the creator of everything in the universe? I mean you have that information of such a concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the universe, namely, creator of everything in the universe, not that you accept the reality of God to be the creator of everything in the universe. Tell me in case you do not have the acquaintance of the concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the unverse... What are your ideas of God? I need your ideas of God so that we can work together to come to a concurring concept of God, and then we will look for God in the universe according to the concept we both agree to be accepted by us both insofar as the concept is concerned. For the purposes of discussion, I'm happy to use your definition of "God". Originally Posted by yrreg Once, we have agreed on what concept of God we both agree on, then we will also work together to concur on what is evidence which you state you need to have to come to the existence of among other things God in the universe, this time the existence of, but in accordance with the concept we agree on -- when we have come to agree on the concept of God. Gerry OK, well as I said I'll use your definition of "God". I'll happily look at whatever evidence you've got, and tell you how convincing I find it.
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19th January 2012, 04:38 PM	#231
ctamblyn Deuteranomalous Individual Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 992	Originally Posted by joolz Hmmm maybe ctamblyn IS god? Must have special powers at least as ctamblyn seems to the the only one yrreg will answer http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...pictureid=5417 Or maybe the rest of us are invisible - neat - I've always wanted superpower! Let's put it to the test... tries to turn Coke into Pepsi Nope.
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19th January 2012, 04:46 PM	#232
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Does Yrreg really think that there was no universe before there were humans?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th January 2012, 05:10 PM	#233
ctamblyn Deuteranomalous Individual Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 992	Originally Posted by dafydd Does Yrreg really think that there was no universe before there were humans? I think it goes something like this: Time began. Humans appeared on the scene, and the universe became a proper universe. We know this by looking at our noses.
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19th January 2012, 05:11 PM	#234
devnull Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 4,533	Yrreg: Your definition of the christian god is a little lacking. The christian god is not limited to merely creating the universe, but is said to have maintained some level of control over it. What you describe is more of a deist position. For the sake of simplicity, why dont you move forward using the concept of a deist god? Or perhaps expand your definition of the christian god to include it's ability to directly affect the universe, impregnate virgins, send itself in human form, listen and react to prayer etc
	__________________ no, i don't think i need to read naturalistic literature more accurately, to be convinced its true. - Gibhor

19th January 2012, 05:21 PM	#235
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,367	Originally Posted by yrreg If people will not agree with me that we exist people and myself, and the universe exists, then this forum should be no venue for them to be in. I'll argue that whether or not people exist depends on your point of view. If you are a sub-atomic particle, then we don't exist. There's a proton here and a electron over there but we're mostly just empty space. There certainly is no boundary between people and not-people. At most there is a particle density gradient. If you are a galaxy 10 billion light years away, then there is no evidence at all that people exist. Or moons. Or planets. There's some photons coming from that direction but that's it. But suppose you're just the right size to see this thing you call people. There still is no such thing as an individual person. There's a colony of living and non-living things there. A collective. A collaboration. But certainly not a single, individual organism. So I disagree with your starting premise. Does that mean I can't post here any more?