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bit_pattern · 21st January 2012, 04:27 AM

Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics. Hence, can antisemitism be viewed as a form of racism?

applecorped · 21st January 2012, 04:27 AM

Why do you hate Jews?

Xero · 21st January 2012, 04:37 AM

It's bigotry. So, not racism, but still it is bigotry, which is no better.

Sam.I.Am · 21st January 2012, 04:53 AM

Islamophobia is racist (according to you). Make up your mind, it seems to me that you think that race is a cultural construct until you don't want it to be... then it isn't. You have the consistency of warm and runny Tapioca pudding on this topic.

Sam.I.Am · 21st January 2012, 04:57 AM

Never mind. I've been trolled.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...50#post7951750

bit_pattern · 21st January 2012, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am

Islamophobia is racist (according to you). Make up your mind, it seems to me that you think that race is a cultural construct until you don't want it to be... then it isn't. You have the consistency of warm and runny Tapioca pudding on this topic.

The fact you are dodging BOTH questions now is duly noted

So, antisemitism is just as racist as Isalmophobia and if one isn't racism then neither is the other. Pretty simple really, i don't know why you are crying about having been "trolled"

JJM 777 · 21st January 2012, 05:38 AM

> Is antisemitism racism?

The definition of antisemitism is not far from being racism in itself. At least it is peculiar how the term "Semitism" became to refer to one specific Semitic tribe only, Jews, while many others do exist too, such as Arabs.

Gazpacho · 21st January 2012, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics.

If you admit that race is a cultural construct and has no other basis, then how can you exclude a linguistic group from being a race?

It's undeniable that "semites" have, in some places and times, been constructed as a race. See for example US land covenants prior to 1954.

Merko · 21st January 2012, 05:48 AM

There are different meanings to the word 'racist'. One more narrow definition is that it means when someone believes that one group is genetically inferior to another group.

Another definition is that it means when someone believes that an ethnic group is inferior for any reason.

Another even looser definition places less restrictions on what defines a 'racial group', and includes any case where someone believes that individual members of a socially distinct group are inferior, be it for genetical, cultural or social reasons. This should not be confused with the belief that a cultural trait is inferior. Racism always means that there is a belief - conscious or not - that individuals are inferior, based only on the information of their demographic group. Also, even this loose definition requires that there is some degree of separation between the feared group and the rest of society. For instance, hatred of homosexuals does not become racism since there is no such separation. However, hatred of Amish could be considered racism even though they do not have a genetic makeup that distinguishes them from the surrounding population.

Antisemitism can be racist according to either definition. The nazis certainly believed that the Jews were genetically inferior. However, this is probably not the reason for most antisemitism today. One good indicator is how converted Jews are treated. If they are accepted, then the antisemitism cannot very well be hinged on genetics.

It may seem that islamophobia cannot be racist in the stricter sense as there is no ethnic group that corresponds very well with Muslims. However, there is a widespread false belief that Arabs and Muslims are the same. And it is the belief that makes the racist, not reality. For instance, there are good reasons to believe that many Iraqi victims of islamophobic crime here in Sweden are actually Christians. This is because about half of our Iraqi immigrants are Christians, but the racists don't know this. One could say that they suffer from 'arabophobia' but a cursory review of their beliefs show that Islam plays a very central role in their prejudice.

So: yes, antisemitism is a form of racism.

Moss · 21st January 2012, 05:58 AM

I'd argue that antisemitism can be racist. If the antisemite bases his views on a from of biological racism akin to the nazi concept of race of there being a biological difference between Jews and other people and Jews therefore being inherently evil, parasitic etc (I wouldn't call nazi "Rassenkunde" genetics. It's mostly pseudoscientific bull droppings based on 19th century notions of race.)
There is a different kind of antisemitism that is cultural and religious which posits Jews could be decent people if only they'd convert to Christianity and leave behind their cultural identity as Jews. But that seems to die out.
Nowadays it's mostly the racist variation you get to see which does not even allow the possibility that Jews can be something other than a (perceived!) bane.

Puppycow · 21st January 2012, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Xero

It's bigotry.

This.

crimresearch · 21st January 2012, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics. Hence, can antisemitism be viewed as a form of racism?

The answer is in the dictionary, under 'R'.

What's your real point?

psionl0 · 21st January 2012, 06:29 AM

It depends on whether you view Jews as a race or as a group of people with a common religious heritage. A key question would be whether this group had any common characteristics other than religion.

Regardless of whether it is racism, anti-semiticism or some form of religious discrimination, its all equally bad.

Halfcentaur · 21st January 2012, 07:46 AM

Many antisemitic people view this as a racial issue, and see the Jews as a race of people.

angrysoba · 21st January 2012, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

> Is antisemitism racism?

The definition of antisemitism is not far from being racism in itself. At least it is peculiar how the term "Semitism" became to refer to one specific Semitic tribe only, Jews, while many others do exist too, such as Arabs.

Anti-Semitism is the term given by racists to a particular form of racism that they espoused. They used the term "anti-semitism" because they thought that racism was scientifically valid and they thought it sounded better (i.e more scientific) than what it really was which was Judenhass. Anti-Semites hate Jews and it didn't matter whether or not those Jews were religious or whether they had converted to Lutheranism or Catholicism, they simply hated them for their "racial" origins. Of course, the Nazis decided to tone down the use of the term "anti-Semitism" when they were looking for allies in the Middle East and North Africa and therefore simply said they were anti-Jew. I would say that anti-semitism is just about as racist as any other racism.

MG1962 · 21st January 2012, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics. Hence, can antisemitism be viewed as a form of racism?

However the race in racism is applied pretty broadly. An Australian can call an Italian a spik or wop, both derogatory words and racism at any level, however the average Australian and Italian are from the same racial background.

Sure we could go on a huge program to educate the world how to apply words like racism correctly, but I suspect we have many more pressing needs for such spending

ehcks · 21st January 2012, 09:09 AM

"Race" doesn't apply to humans anyway. Racism in humans is just a slightly more specific form of bigotry.

Robrob · 21st January 2012, 10:09 AM

Parsing words. It's wrong and stupid. What does it matter what you call it?

Moss · 21st January 2012, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Robrob

Parsing words. It's wrong and stupid. What does it matter what you call it?

Because it's useful to be able to explain why something is wrong and stupid.

WildCat · 21st January 2012, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

An Australian can call an Italian a spik or wop,

I never heard that word directed at Italians before.

Soapy Sam · 21st January 2012, 01:21 PM

I sometimes wonder if there's anyone left I can simply dislike.

Furcifer · 21st January 2012, 01:39 PM

Probably not under the strictest definition of the word, but for all intents and purposes I believe it is.

Marduk · 21st January 2012, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics. Hence, can antisemitism be viewed as a form of racism?

if you believe that the Jews are a seperate race, then yes, otherwise no, what you particularly need to worry about when preparing your next defense is that antisemitism is a hate crime, wether its racism or not is irrelevant

crimresearch · 21st January 2012, 02:04 PM

race [reys]

noun
1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.

2. a population so related.

3. Anthropology;
a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.

b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, especially formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.

4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.

5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race

rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm]

noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

MG1962 · 21st January 2012, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

I never heard that word directed at Italians before.

Yeah I believe we borrowed the word from Americans, trouble is we don't have the demographic it originally referred to, so we just adapted it to our own unfortunate needs.

A more generic term you would hear in Australia for anyone from around the Mediterranean would be wog

Marduk · 21st January 2012, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

I never heard that word directed at Italians before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spic

MaGZ · 21st January 2012, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics. Hence, can antisemitism be viewed as a form of racism?

Anti-Semites consider Jews to be a race, so anti-Semitism is racism.

Darth Rotor · 21st January 2012, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

Many antisemitic people view this as a racial issue, and see the Jews as a race of people.

Given that Jews (who self-identify as Jews) seem to see themselves as a race or special category of people, can you blame anyone, antisemitic or not, for going along with the program?

Some years ago one of our posters tried to point out that Jew or Jewish embodies a combination of identity, cultural, and sometimes religious affiliation. It began to make more sense to me when somebody pointed out that

You can have an Atheist Jew
but not an Atheist Muslim
nor an Atheist Christian.

To answer the OP, antisemitism looks to be a form of bigotry.

One can be biased, or prejudiced, based on more than race alone, whatever race is or isn't.

For example, some of us have to overcome a powerful gag reflex whenever someone mentions the US Air Force, being Navy men ...

bit_pattern · 21st January 2012, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Gazpacho

If you admit that race is a cultural construct and has no other basis, then how can you exclude a linguistic group from being a race?

You can't, that's the whole point. Same goes with a religious group, say, Muslims for instance.

bit_pattern · 21st January 2012, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

However the race in racism is applied pretty broadly. An Australian can call an Italian a spik or wop, both derogatory words and racism at any level, however the average Australian and Italian are from the same racial background.

Sure we could go on a huge program to educate the world how to apply words like racism correctly, but I suspect we have many more pressing needs for such spending

what I'm really angling at is the people who won't accept things like Islamophobia as racism and want to turn the argument into semantic pedantry.

I agree entirely with what you've said here, racism goes way beyond the old ideas of what constitutes 'race'.

Foolmewunz · 21st January 2012, 09:10 PM

Yes, anti-semitism is racism. MaGZ has already confirmed it for us. Whether Judaism is really a race anthropologically is a moot point. Many (most) Jews consider themselves a race or at least a distcintly separate group. The anti-semite has the same view, and just adds, "And I hate 'em!"

So is the important point whether or not the group thinks of themselves as a race, or if the haters do. I go with the latter and in that respect, many anti-Islamists are also racists, as are many garden variety bigots. If you are from an area which doesn't have any blacks or Jews to hate, but have a large population of Irish, who live in an Irish community, speak Gaelic, do things identified as Irish, etc... Why you can hate the Irish just as easily as you can hate Jews. Try it. It's really easy. (Exchange Poles, Portugese, Italians, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Indians, Pakistanis, et al for "Irish" in the previous sentence.)

If the hater considers them a separate culture and society, then its racism. At least that's the way it is commonly used now in place of the word "bigotry". I personally opt for the latter, but I don't really care if some people want to term it racism. It has the same meaning, ultimately.

You can call your hatred "Margaret" for all I care. It's still hatred.

bit_pattern · 21st January 2012, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

If the hater considers them a separate culture and society, then its racism. At least that's the way it is commonly used now in place of the word "bigotry". I personally opt for the latter, but I don't really care if some people want to term it racism. It has the same meaning, ultimately.

You can call your hatred "Margaret" for all I care. It's still hatred.

This

angrysoba · 21st January 2012, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

You can call your hatred "Margaret" for all I care. It's still hatred.

In the Thatcher days many people did just that.

Is anti-Thatcherism racism?

Information Analyst · 22nd January 2012, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Yeah I believe we borrowed the word from Americans, trouble is we don't have the demographic it originally referred to, so we just adapted it to our own unfortunate needs.

A more generic term you would hear in Australia for anyone from around the Mediterranean would be wog

Back in the 1980s British satirical TV programme Who Dares Wins did a sketch about a school being taken over by bigotted parents, with the one appointed geography teacher identifying the peoples of Europe as, "Frog, wogs, spics, micks, sprouts, krauts, and dagoes." I'd say at least half of them have fallen into disused, and the rest aren't much used, except by The Sun, and then infrequently.

stokes234 · 22nd January 2012, 02:40 AM

Yes, it is.

Information Analyst · 22nd January 2012, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by stokes234

Yes, it is.

Why?

bit_pattern · 22nd January 2012, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by stokes234

Yes, it is.

Islamophobia?

Dancing David · 22nd January 2012, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics. Hence, can antisemitism be viewed as a form of racism?

It depends upon the person using the term, there are those who have primitive notions and believe that races exist and that they are meaningful.

Some of those people believe that other cultures are other races, so...

Oliver · 22nd January 2012, 05:01 AM

Is antisemitism racism?

Well, depends on what Semites are. So which folks are Semites?

Moss · 22nd January 2012, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

So is the important point whether or not the group thinks of themselves as a race, or if the haters do. I go with the latter and in that respect, many anti-Islamists are also racists, as are many garden variety bigots. If you are from an area which doesn't have any blacks or Jews to hate, but have a large population of Irish, who live in an Irish community, speak Gaelic, do things identified as Irish, etc... Why you can hate the Irish just as easily as you can hate Jews. Try it. It's really easy. (Exchange Poles, Portugese, Italians, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Indians, Pakistanis, et al for "Irish" in the previous sentence.)

If the hater considers them a separate culture and society, then its racism. At least that's the way it is commonly used now in place of the word "bigotry". I personally opt for the latter, but I don't really care if some people want to term it racism. It has the same meaning, ultimately.

Xenophobia might also work.

21st January 2012, 04:27 AM	#1
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	Is antisemitism racism? Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics. Hence, can antisemitism be viewed as a form of racism?
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	__________________ "You are the epitome of the 'pigeon playing chess'. No matter how good I am at chess, you are just going to knock the pieces over, **** on the board and strut around like you've won something" "In this political climate, all of science is vulnerable to ideological attack when reality disagrees with political beliefs."

21st January 2012, 04:27 AM	#2
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 10,834	Why do you hate Jews?
	__________________ All You Need Is Love.

21st January 2012, 04:53 AM	#4
Sam.I.Am Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel Posts: 4,164	Islamophobia is racist (according to you). Make up your mind, it seems to me that you think that race is a cultural construct until you don't want it to be... then it isn't. You have the consistency of warm and runny Tapioca pudding on this topic.
	__________________ "Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar.

21st January 2012, 04:57 AM	#5
Sam.I.Am Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel Posts: 4,164	Never mind. I've been trolled. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...50#post7951750
	__________________ "Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar.

21st January 2012, 05:03 AM	#6
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am Islamophobia is racist (according to you). Make up your mind, it seems to me that you think that race is a cultural construct until you don't want it to be... then it isn't. You have the consistency of warm and runny Tapioca pudding on this topic. The fact you are dodging BOTH questions now is duly noted So, antisemitism is just as racist as Isalmophobia and if one isn't racism then neither is the other. Pretty simple really, i don't know why you are crying about having been "trolled"
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	__________________ "You are the epitome of the 'pigeon playing chess'. No matter how good I am at chess, you are just going to knock the pieces over, **** on the board and strut around like you've won something" "In this political climate, all of science is vulnerable to ideological attack when reality disagrees with political beliefs."

21st January 2012, 04:37 AM	#3
Xero Thinker Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Western Australia Posts: 178	It's bigotry. So, not racism, but still it is bigotry, which is no better.

21st January 2012, 05:38 AM	#7
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	> Is antisemitism racism? The definition of antisemitism is not far from being racism in itself. At least it is peculiar how the term "Semitism" became to refer to one specific Semitic tribe only, Jews, while many others do exist too, such as Arabs.

21st January 2012, 05:41 AM	#8
Gazpacho Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Valley Lodge, USA Posts: 2,136	Originally Posted by bit_pattern Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics. If you admit that race is a cultural construct and has no other basis, then how can you exclude a linguistic group from being a race? It's undeniable that "semites" have, in some places and times, been constructed as a race. See for example US land covenants prior to 1954.
	__________________ _{Google search help}

21st January 2012, 05:48 AM	#9
Merko Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,901	There are different meanings to the word 'racist'. One more narrow definition is that it means when someone believes that one group is genetically inferior to another group. Another definition is that it means when someone believes that an ethnic group is inferior for any reason. Another even looser definition places less restrictions on what defines a 'racial group', and includes any case where someone believes that individual members of a socially distinct group are inferior, be it for genetical, cultural or social reasons. This should not be confused with the belief that a cultural trait is inferior. Racism always means that there is a belief - conscious or not - that individuals are inferior, based only on the information of their demographic group. Also, even this loose definition requires that there is some degree of separation between the feared group and the rest of society. For instance, hatred of homosexuals does not become racism since there is no such separation. However, hatred of Amish could be considered racism even though they do not have a genetic makeup that distinguishes them from the surrounding population. Antisemitism can be racist according to either definition. The nazis certainly believed that the Jews were genetically inferior. However, this is probably not the reason for most antisemitism today. One good indicator is how converted Jews are treated. If they are accepted, then the antisemitism cannot very well be hinged on genetics. It may seem that islamophobia cannot be racist in the stricter sense as there is no ethnic group that corresponds very well with Muslims. However, there is a widespread false belief that Arabs and Muslims are the same. And it is the belief that makes the racist, not reality. For instance, there are good reasons to believe that many Iraqi victims of islamophobic crime here in Sweden are actually Christians. This is because about half of our Iraqi immigrants are Christians, but the racists don't know this. One could say that they suffer from 'arabophobia' but a cursory review of their beliefs show that Islam plays a very central role in their prejudice. So: yes, antisemitism is a form of racism.
Merko Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,901

21st January 2012, 05:58 AM	#10
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	I'd argue that antisemitism can be racist. If the antisemite bases his views on a from of biological racism akin to the nazi concept of race of there being a biological difference between Jews and other people and Jews therefore being inherently evil, parasitic etc (I wouldn't call nazi "Rassenkunde" genetics. It's mostly pseudoscientific bull droppings based on 19th century notions of race.) There is a different kind of antisemitism that is cultural and religious which posits Jews could be decent people if only they'd convert to Christianity and leave behind their cultural identity as Jews. But that seems to die out. Nowadays it's mostly the racist variation you get to see which does not even allow the possibility that Jews can be something other than a (perceived!) bane.

21st January 2012, 06:08 AM	#11
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 16,025	Originally Posted by Xero It's bigotry. This.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

21st January 2012, 06:22 AM	#12
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by bit_pattern Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics. Hence, can antisemitism be viewed as a form of racism? The answer is in the dictionary, under 'R'. What's your real point?
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

21st January 2012, 06:29 AM	#13
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,897	It depends on whether you view Jews as a race or as a group of people with a common religious heritage. A key question would be whether this group had any common characteristics other than religion. Regardless of whether it is racism, anti-semiticism or some form of religious discrimination, its all equally bad.

21st January 2012, 07:46 AM	#14
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,004	Many antisemitic people view this as a racial issue, and see the Jews as a race of people.
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,004

21st January 2012, 08:01 AM	#15
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,887	Originally Posted by JJM 777 > Is antisemitism racism? The definition of antisemitism is not far from being racism in itself. At least it is peculiar how the term "Semitism" became to refer to one specific Semitic tribe only, Jews, while many others do exist too, such as Arabs. Anti-Semitism is the term given by racists to a particular form of racism that they espoused. They used the term "anti-semitism" because they thought that racism was scientifically valid and they thought it sounded better (i.e more scientific) than what it really was which was Judenhass. Anti-Semites hate Jews and it didn't matter whether or not those Jews were religious or whether they had converted to Lutheranism or Catholicism, they simply hated them for their "racial" origins. Of course, the Nazis decided to tone down the use of the term "anti-Semitism" when they were looking for allies in the Middle East and North Africa and therefore simply said they were anti-Jew. I would say that anti-semitism is just about as racist as any other racism.

21st January 2012, 08:37 AM	#16
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by bit_pattern Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics. Hence, can antisemitism be viewed as a form of racism? However the race in racism is applied pretty broadly. An Australian can call an Italian a spik or wop, both derogatory words and racism at any level, however the average Australian and Italian are from the same racial background. Sure we could go on a huge program to educate the world how to apply words like racism correctly, but I suspect we have many more pressing needs for such spending

21st January 2012, 09:09 AM	#17
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,717	"Race" doesn't apply to humans anyway. Racism in humans is just a slightly more specific form of bigotry.
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,717	__________________ Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

21st January 2012, 10:09 AM	#18
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660	Parsing words. It's wrong and stupid. What does it matter what you call it?
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660

21st January 2012, 10:56 AM	#19
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	Originally Posted by Robrob Parsing words. It's wrong and stupid. What does it matter what you call it? Because it's useful to be able to explain why something is wrong and stupid.

21st January 2012, 12:16 PM	#20
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,471	Originally Posted by MG1962 An Australian can call an Italian a spik or wop, I never heard that word directed at Italians before.

21st January 2012, 01:21 PM	#21
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,927	I sometimes wonder if there's anyone left I can simply dislike.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,927

21st January 2012, 01:39 PM	#22
Furcifer miscreant Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: hohm Posts: 13,379	Probably not under the strictest definition of the word, but for all intents and purposes I believe it is.

21st January 2012, 02:01 PM	#23
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by bit_pattern Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics. Hence, can antisemitism be viewed as a form of racism? if you believe that the Jews are a seperate race, then yes, otherwise no, what you particularly need to worry about when preparing your next defense is that antisemitism is a hate crime, wether its racism or not is irrelevant
	Last edited by Marduk; 21st January 2012 at 02:03 PM.

21st January 2012, 02:04 PM	#24
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	race [reys] noun 1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity. 2. a population so related. 3. Anthropology; a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use. b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, especially formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups. c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans. 4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race. 5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm] noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

21st January 2012, 02:48 PM	#25
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by WildCat I never heard that word directed at Italians before. Yeah I believe we borrowed the word from Americans, trouble is we don't have the demographic it originally referred to, so we just adapted it to our own unfortunate needs. A more generic term you would hear in Australia for anyone from around the Mediterranean would be wog

21st January 2012, 04:13 PM	#26
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by WildCat I never heard that word directed at Italians before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spic

21st January 2012, 04:43 PM	#27
MaGZ Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,340	Originally Posted by bit_pattern Firstly, semitic is not a 'race', it's a linguistic group and race is a cultural construct with no basis in genetics. Hence, can antisemitism be viewed as a form of racism? Anti-Semites consider Jews to be a race, so anti-Semitism is racism.
MaGZ Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,340

21st January 2012, 04:49 PM	#28
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,378	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur Many antisemitic people view this as a racial issue, and see the Jews as a race of people. Given that Jews (who self-identify as Jews) seem to see themselves as a race or special category of people, can you blame anyone, antisemitic or not, for going along with the program? Some years ago one of our posters tried to point out that Jew or Jewish embodies a combination of identity, cultural, and sometimes religious affiliation. It began to make more sense to me when somebody pointed out that You can have an Atheist Jew but not an Atheist Muslim nor an Atheist Christian. To answer the OP, antisemitism looks to be a form of bigotry. One can be biased, or prejudiced, based on more than race alone, whatever race is or isn't. For example, some of us have to overcome a powerful gag reflex whenever someone mentions the US Air Force, being Navy men ...
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21st January 2012, 07:54 PM	#29
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	Originally Posted by Gazpacho If you admit that race is a cultural construct and has no other basis, then how can you exclude a linguistic group from being a race? You can't, that's the whole point. Same goes with a religious group, say, Muslims for instance.
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	__________________ "You are the epitome of the 'pigeon playing chess'. No matter how good I am at chess, you are just going to knock the pieces over, **** on the board and strut around like you've won something" "In this political climate, all of science is vulnerable to ideological attack when reality disagrees with political beliefs."

21st January 2012, 07:56 PM	#30
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	Originally Posted by MG1962 However the race in racism is applied pretty broadly. An Australian can call an Italian a spik or wop, both derogatory words and racism at any level, however the average Australian and Italian are from the same racial background. Sure we could go on a huge program to educate the world how to apply words like racism correctly, but I suspect we have many more pressing needs for such spending what I'm really angling at is the people who won't accept things like Islamophobia as racism and want to turn the argument into semantic pedantry. I agree entirely with what you've said here, racism goes way beyond the old ideas of what constitutes 'race'.
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	__________________ "You are the epitome of the 'pigeon playing chess'. No matter how good I am at chess, you are just going to knock the pieces over, **** on the board and strut around like you've won something" "In this political climate, all of science is vulnerable to ideological attack when reality disagrees with political beliefs."

21st January 2012, 09:10 PM	#31
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,890	Yes, anti-semitism is racism. MaGZ has already confirmed it for us. Whether Judaism is really a race anthropologically is a moot point. Many (most) Jews consider themselves a race or at least a distcintly separate group. The anti-semite has the same view, and just adds, "And I hate 'em!" So is the important point whether or not the group thinks of themselves as a race, or if the haters do. I go with the latter and in that respect, many anti-Islamists are also racists, as are many garden variety bigots. If you are from an area which doesn't have any blacks or Jews to hate, but have a large population of Irish, who live in an Irish community, speak Gaelic, do things identified as Irish, etc... Why you can hate the Irish just as easily as you can hate Jews. Try it. It's really easy. (Exchange Poles, Portugese, Italians, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Indians, Pakistanis, et al for "Irish" in the previous sentence.) If the hater considers them a separate culture and society, then its racism. At least that's the way it is commonly used now in place of the word "bigotry". I personally opt for the latter, but I don't really care if some people want to term it racism. It has the same meaning, ultimately. You can call your hatred "Margaret" for all I care. It's still hatred.
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21st January 2012, 09:57 PM	#32
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz If the hater considers them a separate culture and society, then its racism. At least that's the way it is commonly used now in place of the word "bigotry". I personally opt for the latter, but I don't really care if some people want to term it racism. It has the same meaning, ultimately. You can call your hatred "Margaret" for all I care. It's still hatred. This
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	__________________ "You are the epitome of the 'pigeon playing chess'. No matter how good I am at chess, you are just going to knock the pieces over, **** on the board and strut around like you've won something" "In this political climate, all of science is vulnerable to ideological attack when reality disagrees with political beliefs."

21st January 2012, 11:23 PM	#33
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,887	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz You can call your hatred "Margaret" for all I care. It's still hatred. In the Thatcher days many people did just that. Is anti-Thatcherism racism?

22nd January 2012, 01:52 AM	#34
Information Analyst Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,145	Originally Posted by MG1962 Yeah I believe we borrowed the word from Americans, trouble is we don't have the demographic it originally referred to, so we just adapted it to our own unfortunate needs. A more generic term you would hear in Australia for anyone from around the Mediterranean would be wog Back in the 1980s British satirical TV programme Who Dares Wins did a sketch about a school being taken over by bigotted parents, with the one appointed geography teacher identifying the peoples of Europe as, "Frog, wogs, spics, micks, sprouts, krauts, and dagoes." I'd say at least half of them have fallen into disused, and the rest aren't much used, except by The Sun, and then infrequently.

22nd January 2012, 02:40 AM	#35
stokes234 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: UK Posts: 2,295	Yes, it is.
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