Derren Brown's screaming stooges

[Stray Cat]

Originally Posted by silver birch

My opinion of DB is biased, because its obvious he is performing a loadacrap.

I wonder if there's any means to take away the automatic forum title from some posters.

It's just that silver birch's seems completely at odds with any of his posts.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by silver birch

My opinion of DB is biased, because its obvious he is performing a loadacrap.

...and we're back to you being shocked and upset that a stage magician performs stage magic.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by John Albert

Look at those videos, and then re-watch the "Voodoo Doll" bit and tell me you can't see any difference at all in the behaviors of both Stephen Fry and Simon Pegg, and the performance of Magda Rodriguez.

I did, and I have already explained to you why she need not be acting. But you seem to ignore it.

[Matthew Best]

Has anybody actually asked her if she's acting?

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Has anybody actually asked her if she's acting?

Do you honestly think that she would confirm that she is bound by contract not to reveal if she was acting?

[Matthew Best]

Who knows? One way to get further information would be to ask.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Who knows? One way to get further information would be to ask.

And if her reply is "I did not act", then the matter is solved, yes?

[Azrael 5]

Originally Posted by steenkh

And if her reply is "I did not act", then the matter is solved, yes?

I would guess so.I've emailed her,I'll let the forum know if any reply is forthcoming.

[beren]

Originally Posted by silver birch

My opinion of DB is biased, because its obvious he is performing a loadacrap.

Why is it crap?

[Sledge]

Originally Posted by beren

Why is it crap?

Duh! It's obvious!

[lane99]

John Albert, you certainly suffer fools a lot more gladly than I ever would. And you're to be commended for that, I guess.

You've already proven that the women in the magic doll routine was an actress. And that Derren Brown lied about it. And he is very much guilty there of the artistic repugnancy and laziness that he himself says that such a circumstance would be.

The magic doll case is open and shut. The larger question here, I think, is whether or not he is cheating the audience EVERY time he promotes a show with a "no actors or stooges" disclaimer, but then supposedly uses hypnosis to achieve the results.

Because regardless of whether or not the participants are professional actors, isn't the truly salient point whether or not they are, in fact, ACTING? Which is all that stage hypnotist subjects are doing. There is no such thing as a "hypnotic trance" that compels these people to do someone unconsciously, and against their will. They are simply going along for the ride, and role-playing.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by beren

Why is it crap?

Because all of us "so called skeptics" who believe that a skilled illusionist (or stage magician, but we'll avoid that term because he's on TV not a stage) can create the illusion of some sort of mental control without the need to prepare a script and carefully coach his subjects are being taken in by an obvious charlatan who doesn't really have voodoo powers. It doesn't matter how often we acknowledge that Derren Brown is using trickery, the fact that we don't blindly accept silver birch's explanation means we're all still duped.

[Sledge]

Originally Posted by lane99

You've already proven that the women in the magic doll routine was an actress. And that Derren Brown lied about it.

Ooh, great. Maybe you can show us where he did this, as John seems reluctant to point it out.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Sledge

Ooh, great. Maybe you can show us where he did this, as John seems reluctant to point it out.

We know that Magda Rodriguez is an actress.

We haven't been shown that she was appearing on that show in her capacity as an actress. Except for silver birch's contention that professional actors and actresses are not allowed to have private lives, because they must be paid as an actor any time they appear anywhere. So why would you pay an actress if not to have her act? I think most of us can see a flaw in this argument.

[3point14]

Okay, not read this for a while and I haven't caught up. Sorry.

Can someone just let me know if there's anything more than argument from incredulity in the last three or four pages to save me reading through reams of disbelief coupled with unsuported assertion?

[Azrael 5]

Originally Posted by 3point14

Okay, not read this for a while and I haven't caught up. Sorry.

Can someone just let me know if there's anything more than argument from incredulity in the last three or four pages to save me reading through reams of disbelief coupled with unsuported assertion?

Nope.

[3point14]

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

Nope.

Thanks!

[Azrael 5]

You all realise that if Magda replies to me and says "I wasnt acting"
John Albert will just say"Shes bound by contract.." "She cant say due to legal issues" or "She's lying"

[John Albert]

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

You all realise that if Magda replies to me and says "I wasnt acting"
John Albert will just say"Shes bound by contract.." "She cant say due to legal issues" or "She's lying"

I wouldn't believe you at all in the absence of some form of objective confirmation, because you've proven to be extremely dishonest and have blatantly lied numerous times throughout this and the other thread.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

You all realise that if Magda replies to me and says "I wasnt acting"
John Albert will just say"Shes bound by contract.." "She cant say due to legal issues" or "She's lying"

So would I. If she was employed by Derren Brown, she would be bound by a contract not to reveal her employment. You would merely place her in an impossible situation where she would be forced to lie in order not to be sued.

As you know, I do not believe that she was employed, but I would still regard her answer as meaningless, unless of course she reveals that she was indeed employed by Derren Brown.

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by John Albert

I wouldn't believe you at all in the absence of some form of objective confirmation, because you've proven to be extremely dishonest and have blatantly lied numerous times throughout this and the other thread.

So can you say what would falsify your belief that she was acting?

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by steenkh

If she was employed by Derren Brown, she would be bound by a contract not to reveal her employment. You would merely place her in an impossible situation where she would be forced to lie in order not to be sued.

That seems unlikely to me. That would put Brown in the situation of having to sue someone for breaking a contract which he has already indicated he didn't make. For someone who has said that using stooges would be professionally embarrassing, suing someone who revealed that she was a stooge on the basis that she had contractually agreed not to reveal this information would be adding embarrassment on top of embarrassment. It's not going to happen.

If she was employed by Derren Brown, he would have to just ignore her claims - if he sued for breach of contract that would be acknowledging that she was correct and that he had lied the whole time.

[Azrael 5]

Originally Posted by John Albert

I wouldn't believe you at all in the absence of some form of objective confirmation, because you've proven to be extremely dishonest and have blatantly lied numerous times throughout this and the other thread.

You post one lie Ive told. It hasnt happened dude.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

If she was employed by Derren Brown, he would have to just ignore her claims - if he sued for breach of contract that would be acknowledging that she was correct and that he had lied the whole time.

You may have a point there. OK, we will see what she says.

[GrandMasterFox]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

So can you say what would falsify your belief that she was acting?

That does not a good logic make.

Q: Holocaust denier, what would convince you the holocaust is real?
A: A signed and videotape confession from hitler himself.

Good luck finding that...
Hence the whole "burden of proof" thing (his claim, his burden)

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

That seems unlikely to me. That would put Brown in the situation of having to sue someone for breaking a contract which he has already indicated he didn't make.

Not really. The real danger to her would not be that Derren sues her. Her danger would come from that no other person on earth would hire her.
Would you hire someone who spilled the beans on a previous employer?

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox

Not really. The real danger to her would not be that Derren sues her. Her danger would come from that no other person on earth would hire her.

If she can act, she'll get hired. Maybe not hired to act secretly but how often does that happen anyway? (Basically never.)

[3point14]

Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox

That does not a good logic make.

Q: Holocaust denier, what would convince you the holocaust is real?
A: A signed and videotape confession from hitler himself.

I disagree. I think it's perfect logic.

If someone won't state what they would accept as evidence that they are incorrect, then they have an unfalsifiable position and, as such, are dogmatic, entrenched and not worth arguing with. Like the religious.

ETA:

so I'd like this answered:

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

So can you say what would falsify your belief that she was acting?

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox

That does not a good logic make.

Q: Holocaust denier, what would convince you the holocaust is real?
A: A signed and videotape confession from hitler himself.

Good luck finding that...

Well, this is a discussion, not a logic class. So getting information about what would satisfy someone in the discussion at least saves me and everyone else a lot of time digging out other stuff that doesn't satisfy that person's unrealistic expectations.

[John Albert]

Of course I would accept any objective evidence that she was (or was not) acting. But I also acknowledge the fact that if she was acting, she was most likely bound by NDA not to reveal as much, or any other details of her performance on the show.

Perhaps there are other ways to determine whether or not she may have been acting, without asking her directly? Perhaps there are other questions that might resolve the issue without creating such a dilemma.

As I said before, I consider it highly unlikely that a professional actor would make an appearance on a national TV show without compensation of some sort. But on the other hand, being paid might not be one's only motivation. Maybe publicity or career advancement factored in somehow.

As I said before, whether she was paid is beside the point. The question remains whether her behavior was a theatrical performance.

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by John Albert

Of course I would accept any objective evidence that she was (or was not) acting. But I also acknowledge the fact that if she was acting, she was most likely bound by NDA not to reveal as much, or any other details of her performance on the show.

And what do you think would be the penalty for breaking this NDA?

[John Albert]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

And what do you think would be the penalty for breaking this NDA?

The "penalty" is typically legal action to recover compensatory and/or punitive damages.

[Matthew Best]

But, as has been pointed out, that would never happen, as it would mean Derren Brown admitting in open court that he employed an actor. So in effect he'd be making something public that he was at the same time suing to keep secret, which would be self-defeating.

[Azrael 5]

John Albert can you proivde proof I have lied in this thread(makes it easier than searching previous one)as you claim.

Also I know of people who have spoken of taking part in Derren's shows so any NDA talk is redundant.

ETA: Derren has been on TV for about 10 years and yet the only "proof" of stooges is that Magda Rodriquez is an actor! What would Occams razor say about that?

[AdMan]

There is one other aspect to this "Derren Brown frequently uses stooges" hypothesis that I think should be considered (not sure if it's been already brought up in either thread):

DB is a very well known personality in the UK, and the UK is well known for its tabloid journalism. Given Derren's fame and his many assertions that he doesn't use stooges, it would be quite a coup for a tabloid to present an exposé and show that he does in fact employ actors. All the paper would have to do is find one or two actors willing to come forward, NDA or not, or even use anonymous sources. Even if no actor could be found to openly admit it, the paper could go with what we know about the Magda story. Why hasn't this happened?

Perhaps someone familiar with how British tabloids usually operate can share their POV.

[John Albert]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

But, as has been pointed out, that would never happen, as it would mean Derren Brown admitting in open court that he employed an actor. So in effect he'd be making something public that he was at the same time suing to keep secret, which would be self-defeating.

Not necessarily. The proceedings would most likely be closed, and a gag order imposed.

Besides, as I've already pointed out, even if Derren were plainly shown to use stooges, it would not be "career suicide" as he lets on. That assertion is disingenuous posturing. He already has enough hardcore fans who will always believe whatever he says, no matter what.

Other magicians have had their use of stooges revealed, and their careers are still going strong. One of them in particular has been caught on camera sloppily revealing his own use of stooges without a doubt, even he has a popular show on the Vegas strip. Even Peter Popoff the faith healer still has a career swindling people with his faith-healing routine after being busted by Randi on Johnny Carson.

Magic is not science. In the world of magic, it doesn't matter what is proven, but what people accept and what people believe. People are going to believe what they want to believe. Most of DB's fans will believe whatever he says, and most others won't even care: "So a magician was caught using a trick to fool people. So what!" The "career suicide" claim is disingenuous nonsense.

[lane99]

Derren Brown frequently uses actors or stooges despite his assertions to the contrary. Any participant supposedly acting unconsciously under hypnosis is, in reality, just acting- full stop.

Apart from these actors, though less frequently, he does on occasion use full fledged stooges. One such example is found in "Enigma". In that program, the woman employed for a spirit cabinet routine is a stooge.

Anyone who has seen that show, and has a working familiarity with magic methods, should be able to spot the tell which indicates it is not the ghost in the machine, but the stooge in the cabinet that is propelling this illusion.

(p.s. The routine in question starts at about 45 mins. of the video)

[ctamblyn]

Originally Posted by AdMan

There is one other aspect to this "Derren Brown frequently uses stooges" hypothesis that I think should be considered (not sure if it's been already brought up in either thread):

DB is a very well known personality in the UK, and the UK is well known for its tabloid journalism. Given Derren's fame and his many assertions that he doesn't use stooges, it would be quite a coup for a tabloid to present an exposé and show that he does in fact employ actors. All the paper would have to do is find one or two actors willing to come forward, NDA or not, or even use anonymous sources. Even if no actor could be found to openly admit it, the paper could go with what we know about the Magda story. Why hasn't this happened?

Perhaps someone familiar with how British tabloids usually operate can share their POV.

Clearly, Derren Brown has hypnotised all the tabloid editors

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by John Albert

Not necessarily. The proceedings would most likely be closed, and a gag order imposed.

Well, if we're allowed to just make things up as we go along, then the answer to this is no, they wouldn't be closed and no gag order would be imposed.

Quote:

Besides, as I've already pointed out, even if Derren were plainly shown to use stooges, it would not be "career suicide" as he lets on. That assertion is disingenuous posturing. He already has enough hardcore fans who will always believe whatever he says, no matter what.

Right, so your position is that if Brown were to sue an actress in open court saying, in effect, "you are an actress whom I employed to pretend to be hypnotised, you promised not to tell anyone about it and now you have and I want compensation", then nobody here would believe that he had employed an actress.

I mean, I'd ridicule your position, but what's the point?

[Azrael 5]

Originally Posted by John Albert

Other magicians have had their use of stooges revealed, and their careers are still going strong. One of them in particular has been caught on camera sloppily revealing his own use of stooges without a doubt, even he has a popular show on the Vegas strip.

You just ignore everyhting told to you. Thsoe other magicians didnt ever state they werent using stooges so no-one can complain at them.Logic Mr Albert,use it.

Originally Posted by lane99

Derren Brown frequently uses actors or stooges despite his assertions to the contrary.

Ooh havent you grasped that you saying this isnt worth jack?

Quote:

Any participant supposedly acting unconsciously under hypnosis is, in reality, just acting- full stop.

ANd?

Quote:

Apart from these actors,

Which actor?The ones you have failed to prove?
..

Quote:

though less frequently, he does on occasion use full fledged stooges. One such example is found in "Enigma". In that program, the woman employed for a spirit cabinet routine is a stooge.

Great so show us your proof.

Quote:

Anyone who has seen that show, and has a working familiarity with magic methods, should be able to spot the tell which indicates it is not the ghost in the machine, but the stooge in the cabinet that is propelling this illusion.

(p.s. The routine in question starts at about 45 mins. of the video)

I've seen this post somehwere else just today,so either you are c&p garbage or just repeating your own garbage,which is it?

[Azrael 5]

Originally Posted by lane99

. In that program, the woman employed for a spirit cabinet routine is a stooge.

Anyone who has seen that show, and has a working familiarity with magic methods, should be able to spot the tell which indicates it is not the ghost in the machine, but the stooge in the cabinet that is propelling this illusion.

Okay just refreshed my memory of this by watching the clip.So with your statement in mind you will explain how a frisbee is thrown into a packed audience,caught by a random person who then proceeds to pass it to a one of a few random people standing -of his free choice -who is amazingly a pre-prepared stooge.

I can't wait.