Gay by choice?

Lisa Simpson · 24th January 2012, 07:52 PM

Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice".

Quote:

"For me, it is a choice," Nixon is quoted as saying in a New York Times magazine profile. "I understand that for many people it's not, but for me it's a choice, and you don't get to define my gayness for me." The 45-year-old actress is engaged to long-time partner Christine Marinoni, who gave birth to their son Max last year. Prior to their relationship, Nixon, who is currently sporting a bald head for a Broadway role, was in a 15-year relationship with Danny Mozes, with whom she Has two children.

Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea.

kerikiwi · 24th January 2012, 09:16 PM

Being sexually active is a choice.
I just do not believe being gay can be chosen or unchosen. You either are or you are not

AdMan · 24th January 2012, 09:21 PM

Are anyone but the religious conservatives or the deeply ignorant (they may overlap) still seriously arguing that sexual orientation is a choice?

JoeyDonuts · 24th January 2012, 09:22 PM

I think the research shows that it's somewhere between the invisible points of "born this way" and "developmental/experiential" factor.

Then again, most psychology research is a little...what's the word?

Tsukasa Buddha · 24th January 2012, 09:31 PM

This has been making the rounds, and it is quite irritating. Basically she is conflating identity with orientation. She is bisexual in orientation, but claims choice in her "gay identity".

Quote:

It’s so not fudging. It’s so not. I think for gay people who feel 100 percent gay, it doesn’t make any sense. And for straight people who feel 100 percent straight, it doesn’t make any sense. I don’t pull out the “bisexual” word because nobody likes the bisexuals. Everybody likes to dump on the bisexuals.

But it is the “B” in LGBT.

CN: I know. But we get no respect.

You just said “we,” so you must self-identify as one.

I just don’t like to pull out that word.

Linky.

But this debate is really very dull. The only reason people are so hard up about it not being a choice is in reaction to homophobes relying on it being a choice to call it immoral. Outside of that context, saying that I was "born this way" is an impotent argument.

Anyway, there are people who claim fluid sexuality, but this person isn't one of them. She has internalised bi-phobia. She claims that sticking to "it's not a choice" is caving to bigots.

Reading the comments on the gay sites I frequent is quite depressing. There seems to be a movement afoot that we "can't define other's sexuality". Whatever the hell that means in this context. It is like Nixon has crafted the most misunderstand-able way she could image to call herself bisexual. Sure, she has "the right to define her sexuality as she sees it", but the rest of us are using a different dictionary.

This debate usually comes up in Queer discussions, and whether a straight person could be queer. I say, "No, WTF are you talking about?" But apparently there is some philosophical stuff about identity behind it.

Gazpacho · 24th January 2012, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Why not just call yourself bisexual?

Because that wouldn't communicate what she means to say.

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree.

The presentation of sexuality as necessarily inborn plays into the hands of conservatives. It encourages them to discuss homosexuality in terms of biological degeneracy.

TheAnachronism · 24th January 2012, 09:36 PM

I find nothing wrong with Cynthia Nixon speaking about the subjective experience of her own sexuality for herself. I see no reason that some people couldn't experience their sexuality as being easily manipulated by personal will or something, depending on the parameters used for the definition of "choice" in this context. But why is everyone always in such a rush to generalize from personal experiences, to assume that their experience is in any way universal? At least she added the caveat of "for me" and "I understand that for many people it's not."

There is no reason to suppose, in my view, that Cynthia Nixon's views of her own sexuality are in any way more valuable anecdotes or data points than mine or yours or anyone else's.

Tsukasa Buddha · 24th January 2012, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by TheAnachronism

I find nothing wrong with Cynthia Nixon speaking about the subjective experience of her own sexuality for herself. I see no reason that some people couldn't experience their sexuality as being easily manipulated by personal will or something, depending on the parameters used for the definition of "choice" in this context. But why is everyone always in such a rush to generalize from personal experiences, to assume that their experience is in any way universal? At least she added the caveat of "for me" and "I understand that for many people it's not."

There is no reason to suppose, in my view, that Cynthia Nixon's views of her own sexuality are in any way more valuable anecdotes or data points than mine or yours or anyone else's.

Do you choose to like [insert favourite food]? How does one choose an orientation? And of course there is the majority of scientific research on the matter and the statements of numerous psych association. I have heard of a few reports showing a few cases of fluidity, but there just hasn't been enough. Also, fluidity =/= choice.

Tsukasa Buddha · 24th January 2012, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Gazpacho

Because that wouldn't communicate what she means to say.

The presentation of sexuality as necessarily inborn plays into the hands of conservatives. It encourages them to discuss homosexuality in terms of biological degeneracy.

But it counters the "choosing sin" argument, so you really get nowhere no matter which is true

.

And I'm not sure she knows what she is communicating herself. She is intentionally choosing an identity that is not congruent with her personal experience of orientation, and doing a very poor job of explaining.

Tsukasa Buddha · 24th January 2012, 09:55 PM

Here is something the APA noted when it was looking into re-orientation therapy:

Quote:

The task force also drew a distinction between sexual orientation and sexual orientation identity, said Glassgold, noting that some people who are attracted to members of their own sex choose to identify themselves as heterosexuals.

"There really is no evidence that orientation can change, [or that you can change] who you're attracted to or who you fall in love with," she said.

Linky.

I think this is the key here. People choose identities that don't fit their unchosen orientation.

Pardalis · 24th January 2012, 09:55 PM

I choose to be depressed.

TheAnachronism · 24th January 2012, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

Do you choose to like [insert favourite food]? How does one choose an orientation? And of course there is the majority of scientific research on the matter and the statements of numerous psych association. I have heard of a few reports showing a few cases of fluidity, but there just hasn't been enough. Also, fluidity =/= choice.

I think you misunderstand my perspective. I have stated elsewhere that I am in a same-sex relationship, and I would consider myself gay or homosexual if pressed. I could not, under any of the definitions of "choice," say that I chose to be attracted to other men and not to females; indeed, Cynthia Nixon's perspective on "choice" with regards to her sexuality is not one that I share, and I am inclined to believe that however CN experiences sexual or romantic attraction, choice does not play as large a role as she seems to express. However, my point is just that such a statement should not be damning to people who do experience same-sex attraction or even opposite-sex attraction; Cynthia Nixon cannot experience anyone else's sexuality and is therefore no more an authority on how other people feel than she is on what sorts of foods I enjoy.

Kopji · 24th January 2012, 10:20 PM

I don't see any reason teh gay people can't have shallow opportunist publicity seeking actors to call their very own jes like us straights.

Hug them and love them and make them your very own!

ponderingturtle · 25th January 2012, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice".

Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea.

The thing here is that calling someone gay means many different things. It is a label for behavior, for attraction and for identity. So while a bisexual attraction pattern might fit her she might be uncomfortable with a bisexual identity.

Of course we do not say people who realize they are gay after they are married to an opposite sex partner are really bi.

ponderingturtle · 25th January 2012, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

But it counters the "choosing sin" argument, so you really get nowhere no matter which is true

.

And I'm not sure she knows what she is communicating herself. She is intentionally choosing an identity that is not congruent with her personal experience of orientation, and doing a very poor job of explaining.

And here you seem to be making assumptions about her personal experience that may or may not be true.

arthwollipot · 25th January 2012, 05:14 AM

I'm sure that some people who are already bisexual or bicurious can choose to enter into a same sex relationship. I know I did.

In the end it didn't work out for me, but I'm still open to the possibility.

ponderingturtle · 25th January 2012, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

Here is something the APA noted when it was looking into re-orientation therapy:

Linky.

I think this is the key here. People choose identities that don't fit their unchosen orientation.

The issue here is how broad is bisexual. It can be defined so narrowly that no one fits into it or so broadly that just about anyone does. I do not think that either extreme is useful in describing people.

Do you call Dan Savage a lier when he calls himself gay as he admits to heterosexual acts in his sexual history. This reminds me of the arguments about Willow on Buffy being bi or gay.

IDB87 · 25th January 2012, 05:24 AM

If someone is bisexual, but they have a higher attraction to the same sex and decide to pursue it indefinitely rather than the other, does that constitute gay by choice?

Ethan Thane Athen · 25th January 2012, 05:30 AM

The idea of choice is an interesting one as two of my daughter's friends have just 'decided' they're bi-sexual and the view of my daughter and her friends is that this is now a common thing amongst their generation and is generally done in an attempt to be 'more interesting'. It's almost a fashion thing now - in their minds.

NB Anecdotes are not evidence etc, I just find it interesting how, in the space of a couple of generations, homo / bi sexuality has seemingly gone from stigma, to accepted, to desirable. Obviously with these particular individuals it may just be the flowering of previously suppressed inclinations but they had no reason to suppress them previously and, knowing the individuals I tend to side with my daughter's interpretation.

Brown · 25th January 2012, 05:39 AM

We may have our tastes and be born with them, but we may also have the power to choose to modify them.

Most people might agree with this proposition if we were talking about food and drink. Why might it not apply to sexual tastes as well?

Caper · 25th January 2012, 05:39 AM

I think it's different for women. I think many women can just kind of choose it. Not the lesbians that look like Chaz Bono.... I think gay men are different... are think they are more born that way.

BTW.... I have seen men I would have never guessed that they were gay. But is there the opposite? The ultra effeminate flaming male that is straight?

arthwollipot · 25th January 2012, 05:40 AM

Huh. That's interesting. I too have observed that many young women these days are going gay or at least bisexual for their first sexual experiences. I don't see young males doing the same. Maybe in about twenty years we'll have caught up.

arthwollipot · 25th January 2012, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by Caper

BTW.... I have seen men I would have never guessed that they were gay. But is there the opposite? The ultra effeminate flaming male that is straight?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Proops

IDB87 · 25th January 2012, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Huh. That's interesting. I too have observed that many young women these days are going gay or at least bisexual for their first sexual experiences. I don't see young males doing the same. Maybe in about twenty years we'll have caught up.

I know of several guys that I grew up with who had gay experiences but didn't talk about it. It's just as common with men, I'd wager, but the social stigma of guys being gay ["ick"] opposed to girls being gay ["hawt"] prevents men from openly talking about.

sgtbaker · 25th January 2012, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by IDB87

I know of several guys that I grew up with who had gay experiences but didn't talk about it. It's just as common with men, I'd wager, but the social stigma of guys being gay ["ick"] opposed to girls being gay ["hawt"] prevents men from openly talking about.

I would think the same thing, although my high school daughter says that the quickest way for a guy to get himelf surrounded by girls is to come out as either bi or gay.

ponderingturtle · 25th January 2012, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen

The idea of choice is an interesting one as two of my daughter's friends have just 'decided' they're bi-sexual and the view of my daughter and her friends is that this is now a common thing amongst their generation and is generally done in an attempt to be 'more interesting'. It's almost a fashion thing now - in their minds.

NB Anecdotes are not evidence etc, I just find it interesting how, in the space of a couple of generations, homo / bi sexuality has seemingly gone from stigma, to accepted, to desirable. Obviously with these particular individuals it may just be the flowering of previously suppressed inclinations but they had no reason to suppress them previously and, knowing the individuals I tend to side with my daughter's interpretation.

There is nothing new about this. See the band Queen and how the straight members wanted to be seen as bi. Then there are the homosexual teens not yet comfortable with labeling themselves as gay.

It is an interesting contrast with the actress who is rejecting bi for gay as well.

Philosaur · 25th January 2012, 05:57 AM

Keep in mind that she was in a committed heterosexual relationship with a man, and has two kids with him. If she says that she was born gay, then she gets to explain to her kids (or not explain, which is worse, I think) why she spent 15 years with someone she wasn't attracted to--and had two children with him! I would think this would push her to embrace her bisexuality, but for whatever reason she's denying (or down-playing) it publicly. Maybe she sees some stigma there; maybe some people expect bisexuals to be more promiscuous because their pool of potential partners is doubled. <-- (Someone told me this once...)

Quick caveat: I don't know anything about her history of public comments regarding hers or anyone else's sexuality. That being said, if she doesn't want to be in the fight, or doesn't espouse the "correct" ideas (i.e. homosexuality is not a choice), then that's her business. If she wants to say that for her it's a choice, I don't see how anyone in the LGBT community can fault her for it. It's unsavory, like people are trying to commandeer her sexuality to further their cause.

Lamuella · 25th January 2012, 06:06 AM

I'm racking my brains, but I can't remember the moment I chose my sexual orientation. I don't remember really thinking about attraction of this kind very much before feeling it. I just remember catching sight of particular ladies on TV and thinking they were lovely (Ace in Doctor Who was an early favourite), and then getting a huge crush on a girl at school.

I definitely remember the points where I chose to act on this orientation (asking the girl I had a crush on to dance at a school disco), but I didn't choose to be attracted to women, and I couldn't choose to stop if I wanted to.

Cynthis Nixon, from what I have seen, feels attraction to men and women. She says she is "gay by choice", and by this seems to mean that she acts on attraction to women but not on attraction to men. That makes sense to me, but it does raise the question of whether we say someone is gay/straight/bisexual based on who they are attracted to or what they do about it.

RobDegraves · 25th January 2012, 06:06 AM

I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

Let's see... I ask myself "Am I sexually attracted to men?" Nope. Ergo I am not gay.

It's not really hard to understand that it probably works in reverse as well. If I was gay I could ask "Am I sexually attracted to women?" If it's nope, I'm likely gay.

If the answer is yes in both, I'm bi-sexual.

The hard part sometimes is asking that question devoid of other factors... social, religious, cultural, etc. However, it is still fairly obvious that it is a choice in only one of those circumstances.

RockNroll · 25th January 2012, 06:10 AM

If we could magically choose our sexual orientation, I'd be bisexual.

Hell, I tried. Oh, how I tried! But it didn't work.

Noztradamus · 25th January 2012, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by Brown

We may have our tastes and be born with them, but we may also have the power to choose to modify them.

Most people might agree with this proposition if we were talking about food and drink. Why might it not apply to sexual tastes as well?

I can accept that some people who are omnivorous may choose to live as vegans.

Cleon · 25th January 2012, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Proops

Spooky. I thought the exact same thing.

Caper · 25th January 2012, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by RockNroll

If we could magically choose our sexual orientation, I'd be bisexual.

Hell, I tried. Oh, how I tried! But it didn't work.

Are you male or female? Did you try because you didn't want to be gay? or wanted to try being gay?

joobz · 25th January 2012, 06:33 AM

From a gay rights and societal acceptance perspective, I think the "Choice/not a choice" argument does not help anyone.

Is Rape any less immoral if the rapist doesn't "choose" to be a rapist?
Is pedophilia any less immoral if the pedophile doesn't "choose" to be a pedophile?

The reason these two actions are immoral is because it has forced an action on someone who did not consent or is psychologically unable/unprepared to offer consent. Further, these actions result in well established psychological damage to the victims.

On the contrary, gay/bi sex/relationships between consenting adults doesn't rely upon forcing one into something against their. From this view, choice doesn't even enter into it. A gay man can CHOOSE to have straight sex and it wouldn't be a problem. (or the reverse)
Further, there is no indication that day/bi relationships/sex acts result in psychological damage to the participants. In fact, the persecution of these individuals is the greatest cause of psychological damage. From this perspective, I would argue that anti-gay attitudes is closer in form (but certainly NOT the degree or magnitude) to the immorality of rape/pedophilia than gay/bi sex is.
1.) Anti gay rhetoric works against the consenting will of a individual, resulting in a victimization.
2.) The persecution of the victim results in long lasting psychological damage.

Noztradamus · 25th January 2012, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

Spooky. I thought the exact same thing.

Are you sure that you are in the right forum? At best that's no more than coincidence, more likely an expected response from a shared cultural background, nothing to do with woo.

crimresearch · 25th January 2012, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice".

Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea.

But what's the use of being gay if you can't tell other people that they're doing it all wrong? ;-}

RockNroll · 25th January 2012, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Caper

Are you male or female? Did you try because you didn't want to be gay? or wanted to try being gay?

Male heterosexual. I wasn't trying to be gay, just wanted to see if I could double my pool of potential sex partners by enjoying guys as well as gals. Turns out I couldn't just make myself like guys through sheer force of will

Complexity · 25th January 2012, 06:47 AM

While I don't think being gay is a choice, I do think she has every right and an obligation to speak the truth about how she perceives being gay in her own experience.

How this might be used or misused by others shouldn't be relevant.

Crossbow · 25th January 2012, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice".

Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea.

Unfortunately, quite a few people have trouble clearly defining their sexuality since they are rather unlcear about the issue themselves: and this case is a good example of that very behavior.

crimresearch · 25th January 2012, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

Unfortunately, quite a few people have trouble clearly defining their sexuality since they are rather unlcear about the issue themselves: and this case is a good example of that very behavior.

What behavior? Marrying her long time partner and mother of their child is 'unclear'?

'Unclear' would be letting people bully her into claiming something she doesn't identify as.

24th January 2012, 07:52 PM	#1
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,061	Gay by choice? Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice". Quote: "For me, it is a choice," Nixon is quoted as saying in a New York Times magazine profile. "I understand that for many people it's not, but for me it's a choice, and you don't get to define my gayness for me." The 45-year-old actress is engaged to long-time partner Christine Marinoni, who gave birth to their son Max last year. Prior to their relationship, Nixon, who is currently sporting a bald head for a Broadway role, was in a 15-year relationship with Danny Mozes, with whom she Has two children. Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

24th January 2012, 09:21 PM	#3
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,191	Are anyone but the religious conservatives or the deeply ignorant (they may overlap) still seriously arguing that sexual orientation is a choice?
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,191	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan Last edited by AdMan; 24th January 2012 at 10:02 PM.

24th January 2012, 09:22 PM	#4
JoeyDonuts Frequencies Not Known To Normals Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 10,636	I think the research shows that it's somewhere between the invisible points of "born this way" and "developmental/experiential" factor. Then again, most psychology research is a little...what's the word?
	__________________ _{EXIT STAGE LEFT! EXIT STAGE RIGHT! THERE IS NO PLACE TO RUN; ALL THE FUSES IN THE EXIT SIGNS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT!}

24th January 2012, 09:31 PM	#5
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,914	This has been making the rounds, and it is quite irritating. Basically she is conflating identity with orientation. She is bisexual in orientation, but claims choice in her "gay identity". Quote: It’s so not fudging. It’s so not. I think for gay people who feel 100 percent gay, it doesn’t make any sense. And for straight people who feel 100 percent straight, it doesn’t make any sense. I don’t pull out the “bisexual” word because nobody likes the bisexuals. Everybody likes to dump on the bisexuals. But it is the “B” in LGBT. CN: I know. But we get no respect. You just said “we,” so you must self-identify as one. I just don’t like to pull out that word. Linky. But this debate is really very dull. The only reason people are so hard up about it not being a choice is in reaction to homophobes relying on it being a choice to call it immoral. Outside of that context, saying that I was "born this way" is an impotent argument. Anyway, there are people who claim fluid sexuality, but this person isn't one of them. She has internalised bi-phobia. She claims that sticking to "it's not a choice" is caving to bigots. Reading the comments on the gay sites I frequent is quite depressing. There seems to be a movement afoot that we "can't define other's sexuality". Whatever the hell that means in this context. It is like Nixon has crafted the most misunderstand-able way she could image to call herself bisexual. Sure, she has "the right to define her sexuality as she sees it", but the rest of us are using a different dictionary. This debate usually comes up in Queer discussions, and whether a straight person could be queer. I say, "No, WTF are you talking about?" But apparently there is some philosophical stuff about identity behind it.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn Last edited by Tsukasa Buddha; 24th January 2012 at 09:35 PM.

24th January 2012, 09:32 PM	#6
Gazpacho Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Valley Lodge, USA Posts: 2,136	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson Why not just call yourself bisexual? Because that wouldn't communicate what she means to say. Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. The presentation of sexuality as necessarily inborn plays into the hands of conservatives. It encourages them to discuss homosexuality in terms of biological degeneracy.
	__________________ _{Google search help}

24th January 2012, 09:16 PM	#2
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,846	Being sexually active is a choice. I just do not believe being gay can be chosen or unchosen. You either are or you are not

24th January 2012, 09:36 PM	#7
TheAnachronism Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: USA Posts: 441	I find nothing wrong with Cynthia Nixon speaking about the subjective experience of her own sexuality for herself. I see no reason that some people couldn't experience their sexuality as being easily manipulated by personal will or something, depending on the parameters used for the definition of "choice" in this context. But why is everyone always in such a rush to generalize from personal experiences, to assume that their experience is in any way universal? At least she added the caveat of "for me" and "I understand that for many people it's not." There is no reason to suppose, in my view, that Cynthia Nixon's views of her own sexuality are in any way more valuable anecdotes or data points than mine or yours or anyone else's.
	__________________ "Even a long human life adds up to only about 650,000 hours. And when that modest milestone flashes past, or at some other point thereabouts, for reasons unknown your atoms will shut you down, silently disassemble, and go off to be other things. And that's it for you....Still, you may rejoice that it happens at all." Bill Bryson, A Short History of Nearly Everything

24th January 2012, 09:44 PM	#8
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,914	Originally Posted by TheAnachronism I find nothing wrong with Cynthia Nixon speaking about the subjective experience of her own sexuality for herself. I see no reason that some people couldn't experience their sexuality as being easily manipulated by personal will or something, depending on the parameters used for the definition of "choice" in this context. But why is everyone always in such a rush to generalize from personal experiences, to assume that their experience is in any way universal? At least she added the caveat of "for me" and "I understand that for many people it's not." There is no reason to suppose, in my view, that Cynthia Nixon's views of her own sexuality are in any way more valuable anecdotes or data points than mine or yours or anyone else's. Do you choose to like [insert favourite food]? How does one choose an orientation? And of course there is the majority of scientific research on the matter and the statements of numerous psych association. I have heard of a few reports showing a few cases of fluidity, but there just hasn't been enough. Also, fluidity =/= choice.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

24th January 2012, 09:47 PM	#9
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,914	Originally Posted by Gazpacho Because that wouldn't communicate what she means to say. The presentation of sexuality as necessarily inborn plays into the hands of conservatives. It encourages them to discuss homosexuality in terms of biological degeneracy. But it counters the "choosing sin" argument, so you really get nowhere no matter which is true . And I'm not sure she knows what she is communicating herself. She is intentionally choosing an identity that is not congruent with her personal experience of orientation, and doing a very poor job of explaining.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

24th January 2012, 09:55 PM	#10
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,914	Here is something the APA noted when it was looking into re-orientation therapy: Quote: The task force also drew a distinction between sexual orientation and sexual orientation identity, said Glassgold, noting that some people who are attracted to members of their own sex choose to identify themselves as heterosexuals. "There really is no evidence that orientation can change, [or that you can change] who you're attracted to or who you fall in love with," she said. Linky. I think this is the key here. People choose identities that don't fit their unchosen orientation.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

24th January 2012, 09:55 PM	#11
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	I choose to be depressed.

24th January 2012, 10:08 PM	#12
TheAnachronism Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: USA Posts: 441	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha Do you choose to like [insert favourite food]? How does one choose an orientation? And of course there is the majority of scientific research on the matter and the statements of numerous psych association. I have heard of a few reports showing a few cases of fluidity, but there just hasn't been enough. Also, fluidity =/= choice. I think you misunderstand my perspective. I have stated elsewhere that I am in a same-sex relationship, and I would consider myself gay or homosexual if pressed. I could not, under any of the definitions of "choice," say that I chose to be attracted to other men and not to females; indeed, Cynthia Nixon's perspective on "choice" with regards to her sexuality is not one that I share, and I am inclined to believe that however CN experiences sexual or romantic attraction, choice does not play as large a role as she seems to express. However, my point is just that such a statement should not be damning to people who do experience same-sex attraction or even opposite-sex attraction; Cynthia Nixon cannot experience anyone else's sexuality and is therefore no more an authority on how other people feel than she is on what sorts of foods I enjoy.
	__________________ "Even a long human life adds up to only about 650,000 hours. And when that modest milestone flashes past, or at some other point thereabouts, for reasons unknown your atoms will shut you down, silently disassemble, and go off to be other things. And that's it for you....Still, you may rejoice that it happens at all." Bill Bryson, A Short History of Nearly Everything Last edited by TheAnachronism; 24th January 2012 at 10:15 PM.

24th January 2012, 10:20 PM	#13
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	I don't see any reason teh gay people can't have shallow opportunist publicity seeking actors to call their very own jes like us straights. Hug them and love them and make them your very own!

25th January 2012, 05:07 AM	#14
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,427	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson Sex and the City co-star Cynthia Nixon has said she's "gay by choice". Critics are saying she's playing into the hands of conservatives and I agree. Why not just call yourself bisexual? I admit, I'm not gay, so maybe I'm missing out on some idea. The thing here is that calling someone gay means many different things. It is a label for behavior, for attraction and for identity. So while a bisexual attraction pattern might fit her she might be uncomfortable with a bisexual identity. Of course we do not say people who realize they are gay after they are married to an opposite sex partner are really bi.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

25th January 2012, 05:13 AM	#15
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,427	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha But it counters the "choosing sin" argument, so you really get nowhere no matter which is true . And I'm not sure she knows what she is communicating herself. She is intentionally choosing an identity that is not congruent with her personal experience of orientation, and doing a very poor job of explaining. And here you seem to be making assumptions about her personal experience that may or may not be true.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

25th January 2012, 05:14 AM	#16
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,025	I'm sure that some people who are already bisexual or bicurious can choose to enter into a same sex relationship. I know I did. In the end it didn't work out for me, but I'm still open to the possibility.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

25th January 2012, 05:23 AM	#17
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,427	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha Here is something the APA noted when it was looking into re-orientation therapy: Linky. I think this is the key here. People choose identities that don't fit their unchosen orientation. The issue here is how broad is bisexual. It can be defined so narrowly that no one fits into it or so broadly that just about anyone does. I do not think that either extreme is useful in describing people. Do you call Dan Savage a lier when he calls himself gay as he admits to heterosexual acts in his sexual history. This reminds me of the arguments about Willow on Buffy being bi or gay.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

25th January 2012, 05:24 AM	#18
IDB87 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: In the Grass Posts: 3,414	If someone is bisexual, but they have a higher attraction to the same sex and decide to pursue it indefinitely rather than the other, does that constitute gay by choice? Doesn't ruin the show for me either way
	__________________ It's guaranteed I'm overreacting.

25th January 2012, 05:30 AM	#19
Ethan Thane Athen Muse Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 950	The idea of choice is an interesting one as two of my daughter's friends have just 'decided' they're bi-sexual and the view of my daughter and her friends is that this is now a common thing amongst their generation and is generally done in an attempt to be 'more interesting'. It's almost a fashion thing now - in their minds. NB Anecdotes are not evidence etc, I just find it interesting how, in the space of a couple of generations, homo / bi sexuality has seemingly gone from stigma, to accepted, to desirable. Obviously with these particular individuals it may just be the flowering of previously suppressed inclinations but they had no reason to suppress them previously and, knowing the individuals I tend to side with my daughter's interpretation.
Ethan Thane Athen Muse Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 950

25th January 2012, 05:39 AM	#20
Brown Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 12,155	We may have our tastes and be born with them, but we may also have the power to choose to modify them. Most people might agree with this proposition if we were talking about food and drink. Why might it not apply to sexual tastes as well?
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

25th January 2012, 05:39 AM	#21
Caper Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,962	I think it's different for women. I think many women can just kind of choose it. Not the lesbians that look like Chaz Bono.... I think gay men are different... are think they are more born that way. BTW.... I have seen men I would have never guessed that they were gay. But is there the opposite? The ultra effeminate flaming male that is straight?
Caper Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,962

25th January 2012, 05:40 AM	#22
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,025	Huh. That's interesting. I too have observed that many young women these days are going gay or at least bisexual for their first sexual experiences. I don't see young males doing the same. Maybe in about twenty years we'll have caught up.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

25th January 2012, 05:44 AM	#23
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,025	Originally Posted by Caper BTW.... I have seen men I would have never guessed that they were gay. But is there the opposite? The ultra effeminate flaming male that is straight? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Proops
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

25th January 2012, 05:48 AM	#24
IDB87 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: In the Grass Posts: 3,414	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Huh. That's interesting. I too have observed that many young women these days are going gay or at least bisexual for their first sexual experiences. I don't see young males doing the same. Maybe in about twenty years we'll have caught up. I know of several guys that I grew up with who had gay experiences but didn't talk about it. It's just as common with men, I'd wager, but the social stigma of guys being gay ["ick"] opposed to girls being gay ["hawt"] prevents men from openly talking about.
	__________________ It's guaranteed I'm overreacting. Last edited by IDB87; 25th January 2012 at 05:50 AM.

25th January 2012, 05:50 AM	#25
sgtbaker Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,550	Originally Posted by IDB87 I know of several guys that I grew up with who had gay experiences but didn't talk about it. It's just as common with men, I'd wager, but the social stigma of guys being gay ["ick"] opposed to girls being gay ["hawt"] prevents men from openly talking about. I would think the same thing, although my high school daughter says that the quickest way for a guy to get himelf surrounded by girls is to come out as either bi or gay.
sgtbaker Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,550

25th January 2012, 05:53 AM	#26
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,427	Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen The idea of choice is an interesting one as two of my daughter's friends have just 'decided' they're bi-sexual and the view of my daughter and her friends is that this is now a common thing amongst their generation and is generally done in an attempt to be 'more interesting'. It's almost a fashion thing now - in their minds. NB Anecdotes are not evidence etc, I just find it interesting how, in the space of a couple of generations, homo / bi sexuality has seemingly gone from stigma, to accepted, to desirable. Obviously with these particular individuals it may just be the flowering of previously suppressed inclinations but they had no reason to suppress them previously and, knowing the individuals I tend to side with my daughter's interpretation. There is nothing new about this. See the band Queen and how the straight members wanted to be seen as bi. Then there are the homosexual teens not yet comfortable with labeling themselves as gay. It is an interesting contrast with the actress who is rejecting bi for gay as well.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

25th January 2012, 05:57 AM	#27
Philosaur Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 971	Keep in mind that she was in a committed heterosexual relationship with a man, and has two kids with him. If she says that she was born gay, then she gets to explain to her kids (or not explain, which is worse, I think) why she spent 15 years with someone she wasn't attracted to--and had two children with him! I would think this would push her to embrace her bisexuality, but for whatever reason she's denying (or down-playing) it publicly. Maybe she sees some stigma there; maybe some people expect bisexuals to be more promiscuous because their pool of potential partners is doubled. <-- (Someone told me this once...) Quick caveat: I don't know anything about her history of public comments regarding hers or anyone else's sexuality. That being said, if she doesn't want to be in the fight, or doesn't espouse the "correct" ideas (i.e. homosexuality is not a choice), then that's her business. If she wants to say that for her it's a choice, I don't see how anyone in the LGBT community can fault her for it. It's unsavory, like people are trying to commandeer her sexuality to further their cause.
Philosaur Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 971	__________________ "The reason is that panic is socially frowned upon by the medical profession" -- Jonesboy

25th January 2012, 06:06 AM	#28
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	I'm racking my brains, but I can't remember the moment I chose my sexual orientation. I don't remember really thinking about attraction of this kind very much before feeling it. I just remember catching sight of particular ladies on TV and thinking they were lovely (Ace in Doctor Who was an early favourite), and then getting a huge crush on a girl at school. I definitely remember the points where I chose to act on this orientation (asking the girl I had a crush on to dance at a school disco), but I didn't choose to be attracted to women, and I couldn't choose to stop if I wanted to. Cynthis Nixon, from what I have seen, feels attraction to men and women. She says she is "gay by choice", and by this seems to mean that she acts on attraction to women but not on attraction to men. That makes sense to me, but it does raise the question of whether we say someone is gay/straight/bisexual based on who they are attracted to or what they do about it.
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480

25th January 2012, 06:06 AM	#29
RobDegraves Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 787	I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Let's see... I ask myself "Am I sexually attracted to men?" Nope. Ergo I am not gay. It's not really hard to understand that it probably works in reverse as well. If I was gay I could ask "Am I sexually attracted to women?" If it's nope, I'm likely gay. If the answer is yes in both, I'm bi-sexual. The hard part sometimes is asking that question devoid of other factors... social, religious, cultural, etc. However, it is still fairly obvious that it is a choice in only one of those circumstances.
RobDegraves Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 787

25th January 2012, 06:10 AM	#30
RockNroll Thinker Join Date: May 2005 Location: Québec, Qc. Posts: 240	If we could magically choose our sexual orientation, I'd be bisexual. Hell, I tried. Oh, how I tried! But it didn't work.
	__________________ Never eat more than you can lift -Miss Piggy

25th January 2012, 06:11 AM	#31
Noztradamus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,857	Originally Posted by Brown We may have our tastes and be born with them, but we may also have the power to choose to modify them. Most people might agree with this proposition if we were talking about food and drink. Why might it not apply to sexual tastes as well? I can accept that some people who are omnivorous may choose to live as vegans.
	__________________ The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.

25th January 2012, 06:13 AM	#32
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,532	Originally Posted by arthwollipot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Proops Spooky. I thought the exact same thing.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

25th January 2012, 06:21 AM	#33
Caper Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,962	Originally Posted by RockNroll If we could magically choose our sexual orientation, I'd be bisexual. Hell, I tried. Oh, how I tried! But it didn't work. Are you male or female? Did you try because you didn't want to be gay? or wanted to try being gay?
Caper Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,962

25th January 2012, 06:33 AM	#34
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,497	From a gay rights and societal acceptance perspective, I think the "Choice/not a choice" argument does not help anyone. Is Rape any less immoral if the rapist doesn't "choose" to be a rapist? Is pedophilia any less immoral if the pedophile doesn't "choose" to be a pedophile? The reason these two actions are immoral is because it has forced an action on someone who did not consent or is psychologically unable/unprepared to offer consent. Further, these actions result in well established psychological damage to the victims. On the contrary, gay/bi sex/relationships between consenting adults doesn't rely upon forcing one into something against their. From this view, choice doesn't even enter into it. A gay man can CHOOSE to have straight sex and it wouldn't be a problem. (or the reverse) Further, there is no indication that day/bi relationships/sex acts result in psychological damage to the participants. In fact, the persecution of these individuals is the greatest cause of psychological damage. From this perspective, I would argue that anti-gay attitudes is closer in form (but certainly NOT the degree or magnitude) to the immorality of rape/pedophilia than gay/bi sex is. 1.) Anti gay rhetoric works against the consenting will of a individual, resulting in a victimization. 2.) The persecution of the victim results in long lasting psychological damage.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

25th January 2012, 06:34 AM	#35
Noztradamus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,857	Originally Posted by Cleon Spooky. I thought the exact same thing. Are you sure that you are in the right forum? At best that's no more than coincidence, more likely an expected response from a shared cultural background, nothing to do with woo.
	__________________ The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.