FREE TAPATALK APP

superfreddy · 6th February 2012, 06:53 AM

Officials claim males circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection. Sounds like pseudo-science to me.

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/healt...s-fight/496177

"...Edison Muabuay, an administration spokesman, said the program was spurred by numerous studies worldwide that found circumcision to be an effective tool against the spread of HIV/AIDS. The World Health Organization has said that male circumcision, performed by well-trained professionals in sterile settings, can reduce the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by 60 percent..."

Sword_Of_Truth · 6th February 2012, 07:15 AM

Dpesn't indonesia have the worlds largest muslim population?

a_unique_person · 6th February 2012, 07:19 AM

Yes. There are better ways to fight aids, IMHO.

MG1962 · 6th February 2012, 07:23 AM

I got to say this article smells a bit. It is not an Indonesian wide program, but targeting 1 of 17 provinces

Sideroxylon · 6th February 2012, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

Dpesn't indonesia have the worlds largest muslim population?

Yes, and its an obligation for Muslims to get the cut. Likely a large part of the motivation here.

AdMan · 6th February 2012, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by superfreddy

"...Edison Muabuay, an administration spokesman, said the program was spurred by numerous studies worldwide that found circumcision to be an effective tool against the spread of HIV/AIDS. The World Health Organization has said that male circumcision, performed by well-trained professionals in sterile settings, can reduce the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by 60 percent..."

Well, the WHO does in fact say that circumcision aids in HIV prevention.

E.g.,:

Quote:

This document articulates a joint five-year framework for use among Ministries of Health and diverse country, regional and global stakeholders to accelerate the scale-up of voluntary medical male circumcision for HIV prevention in selected priority countries of eastern and southern Africa. It is intended to guide key stakeholders to collaborate and coordinate efforts for promoting country ownership, expanding coverage of this effective HIV prevention intervention, and contributing to "getting to zero" new infections.

http://www.who.int/hiv/pub/strategic.../en/index.html

ETA: Here's more info on the WHO's position:

Quote:

There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe. WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence.

Male circumcision provides only partial protection, and therefore should be only one element of a comprehensive HIV prevention package which includes:
- the provision of HIV testing and counseling services;
- treatment for sexually transmitted infections;
- the promotion of safer sex practices;
- the provision of male and female condoms and promotion of their correct and consistent use.

Male circumcision for HIV prevention

Tsukasa Buddha · 6th February 2012, 07:31 AM

I don't think it is really pseudo-science, but I think some groups jumped on the boat too fast. I can show studies on both sides of this as well as female circumcision, but you won't find people clamouring for that

. The WHO jumped behind this cause after an oft critiqued study that had the circumcised men abstain from sex and be taught condom usage, and then the study was ended early to only exaggerate matters. There is an odd, almost political, thing about this.

AdMan · 6th February 2012, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

The WHO jumped behind this cause after an oft critiqued study that had the circumcised men abstain from sex and be taught condom usage, and then the study was ended early to only exaggerate matters. There is an odd, almost political, thing about this.

Interesting. Do you have a link to a critique of the studies?

Naive1000 · 6th February 2012, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by AdMan

Well, the WHO does in fact say that circumcision aids in HIV prevention. ...[snip]...

The WHO study was bad science and is contradicted by facts.

ETA: Forgot a link.

superfreddy · 6th February 2012, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Naive1000

The WHO study was bad science and is contradicted by facts.

ETA: Forgot a link.

That's what I thought. In fact, this move by the Indonesian government sends the wrong message - all you have to do is get circumcised and you'll be protected against HIV.

superfreddy · 6th February 2012, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

Dpesn't indonesia have the worlds largest muslim population?

Yes, but Papua is largely Christian.

Darat · 6th February 2012, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by AdMan

Interesting. Do you have a link to a critique of the studies?

There was a very long thread (as all circumcision threads seem to be - that's irony) on here, try searching with "circumcision" as a tag?

Wildy · 6th February 2012, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

Dpesn't indonesia have the worlds largest muslim population?

Papua, the province that is undertaking this programme is a province with a Christian majority so it isn't that surprising that they wouldn't be circumcising their boys.

AdMan · 6th February 2012, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

There was a very long thread (as all circumcision threads seem to be - that's irony) on here, try searching with "circumcision" as a tag?

Yes, thanks--I do recall the thread(s), though I didn't really participate as it's not something I have a particularly strong opinion on.

I did recall hearing about the WHO's position--it's interesting to learn that it's often been criticized.

It does look like the Papuan requirement is probably unfounded--as pointed out above there are better ways to fight HIV infection.

NewtonTrino · 6th February 2012, 08:48 AM

If someone tried to circumcise my children without my permission they would be starting down the barrel of a gun.

Bram Kaandorp · 6th February 2012, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by NewtonTrino

If someone tried to circumcise my children without my permission they would be starting down the barrel of a gun.

"If someone circumcises you, you circumcise them right back".

You figure out how far you want to go.

Ryokan · 6th February 2012, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by NewtonTrino

If someone tried to circumcise my children without my permission they would be starting down the barrel of a gun.

If I see someone circumcising a child on a plane.....

NewtonTrino · 6th February 2012, 09:47 AM

Basically I don't see it as any different than cutting off a finger or any other body part. Having the government force that on your seems, well just wrong, to me.

Sledge · 6th February 2012, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

If I see someone circumcising a child on a plane.....

You'll rip off REO Speedwagon?

catsmate1 · 6th February 2012, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

Dpesn't indonesia have the worlds largest muslim population?

Circumcision has no benefits wrt HIV prevention and may be counter productive. There are other reasons to avoid this pointless, mutilating, surgery.
Previous thread.

ETA: Darat I think this is the one your were referring to, it's the most recent lengthy thread on the subject.
That thread had a fairly detailed examination of the benefits (damn all) and the risks (deaths, infection, sexual dysfunction et cetera). I think the best summary is:

Originally Posted by Royal Dutch Medical Association

"There is no convincing evidence that circumcision is useful or necessary in terms of prevention or hygiene... circumcision entails the risk of medical and psychological complications... Non-therapeutic circumcision of male minors conflicts with the child's right to autonomy and physical integrity."

Soapy Sam · 6th February 2012, 12:32 PM

I've long felt "Indonesia" sounds like some sort of viral disease.

sadhatter · 6th February 2012, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp

"If someone circumcises you, you circumcise them right back".

You figure out how far you want to go.

If they bring a knife, you bring a gun.

If they put one of yours in the hospital you put one of theirs in the morgue.

If they circumcise one of yours, you castrate one of theirs.

- The Untouchables, directors cut.

Redtail · 6th February 2012, 02:19 PM

Good timing with this thread. We're having a huge discussion about this in "birthing class" tomorrow.

Andrew Wiggin · 7th February 2012, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

There was a very long thread (as all circumcision threads seem to be - that's irony) on here, try searching with "circumcision" as a tag?

Yah. Who could possibly bear to cut a circumcision thread short.

Antiquehunter · 9th February 2012, 10:51 AM

I'm actually surprised its not targetting the province that houses most of the Balinese people. There are frequent tensions IIRC between the Muslim populace and the Balinese, this would strike me as an insidious way to get in a 'dig'. Not sure if the Balinese have a tradition of circumcision or not.

catsmate1 · 9th February 2012, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Antiquehunter

I'm actually surprised its not targetting the province that houses most of the Balinese people. There are frequent tensions IIRC between the Muslim populace and the Balinese, this would strike me as an insidious way to get in a 'dig'. Not sure if the Balinese have a tradition of circumcision or not.

A quick review of Boon would indicate no, circumcision is absolutely not part of Balinese culture or religious practices. Apparently this was/is a source of frication between the Balinese, Buginese and Muslim populations.

Darth Rotor · 9th February 2012, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate1

A quick review of Boon would indicate no, circumcision is absolutely not part of Balinese culture or religious practices. Apparently this was/is a source of frication between the Balinese, Buginese and Muslim populations.

WTF is frication?

Is that like circumcision, but using a rasp file instead of a blade?

Wildy · 9th February 2012, 09:47 PM

I'm more interested in knowing what this "Boon" thing is.

myowninvention · 9th February 2012, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Redtail

Good timing with this thread. We're having a huge discussion about this in "birthing class" tomorrow.

Ooh....I remember going through that with my first- our instructor was convinced that it really was a hygiene issue.

catsmate1 · 10th February 2012, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

WTF is frication?

Is that like circumcision, but using a rasp file instead of a blade?

I'll be sure to ridicule your typo's in future too..........

Thought your comment did remind me of a BDSM documentary that has an interesting use for a cheese grater.

Originally Posted by Wildy

I'm more interested in knowing what this "Boon" thing is.

He's an anthropologist, Professor Emeritus at Princeton, who did a lot of fieldwork and research amongst the Balinese.
My reference was specifically from his book The Anthropological Romance of Bali where he discusses the place of circumcision rituals, e.g.

Originally Posted by Boon, TAROB p211

"There simply could be nothing less Balinese; a painful initiation rite in an imageless, flowerless, smokeless, holy-waterless cell."

among the Balinese, Buginese and other groups.

FYI here's an article on the subject from the Bali Advertiser from 2006.

JB1 · 15th February 2012, 06:42 PM

Interesting thread. So first the World Health Organisation and UNAIDS target Africa for circumcision and now Indonesia is requiring the snip in Christian areas allegedly for the same reasons (HIV). Meanwhile the Middle East, America, Philipines, Indigenous Australians, South Pacific Islanders and South Korea get the snip for other reasons and Islam which requires the procedure continues to grow eg. France. I have read that currently about one third of the world's men have had it. I wonder where that will end up.

Naïve1000 gave links to a page on the Whole Network about a small circumcision study, an article from a musician physician writing in the Huffington Post, Doctors opposing circumcision, a blog from Simon Collery, a doctor who opposes circumcision, and a psychologist who says that the type of medical claims that are made by the WHO are incorrect. Based on these links some people obviously feel rather strongly about the relevant snip. I wonder how they feel about the way things are going.

ZirconBlue · 16th February 2012, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

Yah. Who could possibly bear to cut a circumcision thread short.

I don't know. There are always people trying to jump in and cut these threads off in their infancy.

catsmate1 · 17th February 2012, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by JB1

Interesting thread. So first the World Health Organisation and UNAIDS target Africa for circumcision and now Indonesia is requiring the snip in Christian areas allegedly for the same reasons (HIV). Meanwhile the Middle East, America, Philipines, Indigenous Australians, South Pacific Islanders and South Korea get the snip for other reasons and Islam which requires the procedure continues to grow eg. France. I have read that currently about one third of the world's men have had it. I wonder where that will end up.

Naïve1000 gave links to a page on the Whole Network about a small circumcision study, an article from a musician physician writing in the Huffington Post, Doctors opposing circumcision, a blog from Simon Collery, a doctor who opposes circumcision, and a psychologist who says that the type of medical claims that are made by the WHO are incorrect. Based on these links some people obviously feel rather strongly about the relevant snip. I wonder how they feel about the way things are going.

Circumcision rates are declining in the developed world, especially the USA; other than religious/cultural reasons (which are under legal and ethical scrutiny in some countries) or medical necessity it's almost unheard of in Europe.
Of course it has negligible medical benefits and significant risks so hopefully the practice will decline further.

Skepticemea · 17th February 2012, 04:31 AM

Just how big is Indonesia's foreskin???

Sledge · 17th February 2012, 06:07 AM

I wonder if there's any sailors out there with a big enough clipper for the job.

Beerina · 19th February 2012, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Yes. There are better ways to fight aids, IMHO.

A mildly competent mathematician would show growth rates of the disease would only be marginally slowed at best (assuming it isn't completely hot air) and that the net effect on massive spreading would be utterly zero.

You'd probably be lagging behind where you otherwise would be by a few weeks or a month.

catsmate1 · 19th February 2012, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Beerina

A mildly competent mathematician would show growth rates of the disease would only be marginally slowed at best (assuming it isn't completely hot air) and that the net effect on massive spreading would be utterly zero.

You'd probably be lagging behind where you otherwise would be by a few weeks or a month.

Almost certainly you'd see no benefit or increased infection rates due to higher risk behaviour. And a huge waste of medical resources.

6th February 2012, 06:53 AM	#1
superfreddy Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 236	Indonesia requires male circumcision Officials claim males circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection. Sounds like pseudo-science to me. http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/healt...s-fight/496177 "...Edison Muabuay, an administration spokesman, said the program was spurred by numerous studies worldwide that found circumcision to be an effective tool against the spread of HIV/AIDS. The World Health Organization has said that male circumcision, performed by well-trained professionals in sterile settings, can reduce the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by 60 percent..."
superfreddy Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 236

6th February 2012, 07:19 AM	#3
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,463	Yes. There are better ways to fight aids, IMHO.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

6th February 2012, 07:23 AM	#5
Sideroxylon Gavagai! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Turkey Posts: 10,837	Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth Dpesn't indonesia have the worlds largest muslim population? Yes, and its an obligation for Muslims to get the cut. Likely a large part of the motivation here.
	__________________ 'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

6th February 2012, 07:27 AM	#6
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,334	Originally Posted by superfreddy "...Edison Muabuay, an administration spokesman, said the program was spurred by numerous studies worldwide that found circumcision to be an effective tool against the spread of HIV/AIDS. The World Health Organization has said that male circumcision, performed by well-trained professionals in sterile settings, can reduce the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by 60 percent..." Well, the WHO does in fact say that circumcision aids in HIV prevention. E.g.,: Quote: This document articulates a joint five-year framework for use among Ministries of Health and diverse country, regional and global stakeholders to accelerate the scale-up of voluntary medical male circumcision for HIV prevention in selected priority countries of eastern and southern Africa. It is intended to guide key stakeholders to collaborate and coordinate efforts for promoting country ownership, expanding coverage of this effective HIV prevention intervention, and contributing to "getting to zero" new infections. http://www.who.int/hiv/pub/strategic.../en/index.html ETA: Here's more info on the WHO's position: Quote: There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe. WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence. Male circumcision provides only partial protection, and therefore should be only one element of a comprehensive HIV prevention package which includes: - the provision of HIV testing and counseling services; - treatment for sexually transmitted infections; - the promotion of safer sex practices; - the provision of male and female condoms and promotion of their correct and consistent use. Male circumcision for HIV prevention
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,334	Last edited by AdMan; 6th February 2012 at 07:30 AM.

6th February 2012, 07:31 AM	#7
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 10,034	I don't think it is really pseudo-science, but I think some groups jumped on the boat too fast. I can show studies on both sides of this as well as female circumcision, but you won't find people clamouring for that . The WHO jumped behind this cause after an oft critiqued study that had the circumcised men abstain from sex and be taught condom usage, and then the study was ended early to only exaggerate matters. There is an odd, almost political, thing about this.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn Last edited by Tsukasa Buddha; 6th February 2012 at 07:32 AM.

6th February 2012, 07:15 AM	#2
Sword_Of_Truth Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 11,497	Dpesn't indonesia have the worlds largest muslim population?

6th February 2012, 07:23 AM	#4
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	I got to say this article smells a bit. It is not an Indonesian wide program, but targeting 1 of 17 provinces

6th February 2012, 07:33 AM	#8
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,334	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha The WHO jumped behind this cause after an oft critiqued study that had the circumcised men abstain from sex and be taught condom usage, and then the study was ended early to only exaggerate matters. There is an odd, almost political, thing about this. Interesting. Do you have a link to a critique of the studies?
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,334

6th February 2012, 07:41 AM	#9
Naive1000 Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 416	Originally Posted by AdMan Well, the WHO does in fact say that circumcision aids in HIV prevention. ...[snip]... The WHO study was bad science and is contradicted by facts. U.S. Navy Finds That Circumcision Does Not Prevent HIV or STIs Male Circumcision and the HIV/AIDS Myth Doctors Opposing Circumcision HIV Statement PrePex in Rwanda: Male Circumcision Associated with Higher HIV Transmission and Higher Profits Doctor Discusses Circumcision Controversy (Video) More Circumcision Myths You May Believe: Hygiene and STDs ETA: Forgot a link.
	Last edited by Naive1000; 6th February 2012 at 07:43 AM.

6th February 2012, 08:00 AM	#10
superfreddy Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 236	Originally Posted by Naive1000 The WHO study was bad science and is contradicted by facts. U.S. Navy Finds That Circumcision Does Not Prevent HIV or STIs Male Circumcision and the HIV/AIDS Myth Doctors Opposing Circumcision HIV Statement PrePex in Rwanda: Male Circumcision Associated with Higher HIV Transmission and Higher Profits Doctor Discusses Circumcision Controversy (Video) More Circumcision Myths You May Believe: Hygiene and STDs ETA: Forgot a link. That's what I thought. In fact, this move by the Indonesian government sends the wrong message - all you have to do is get circumcised and you'll be protected against HIV.
superfreddy Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 236

6th February 2012, 08:01 AM	#11
superfreddy Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 236	Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth Dpesn't indonesia have the worlds largest muslim population? Yes, but Papua is largely Christian.
superfreddy Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 236

6th February 2012, 08:05 AM	#12
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,973	Originally Posted by AdMan Interesting. Do you have a link to a critique of the studies? There was a very long thread (as all circumcision threads seem to be - that's irony) on here, try searching with "circumcision" as a tag?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

6th February 2012, 08:05 AM	#13
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field. Posts: 9,953	Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth Dpesn't indonesia have the worlds largest muslim population? Papua, the province that is undertaking this programme is a province with a Christian majority so it isn't that surprising that they wouldn't be circumcising their boys.
	__________________ Latest Blog Posts:Atheism+ More Atheism+ stuff

6th February 2012, 08:11 AM	#14
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,334	Originally Posted by Darat There was a very long thread (as all circumcision threads seem to be - that's irony) on here, try searching with "circumcision" as a tag? Yes, thanks--I do recall the thread(s), though I didn't really participate as it's not something I have a particularly strong opinion on. I did recall hearing about the WHO's position--it's interesting to learn that it's often been criticized. It does look like the Papuan requirement is probably unfounded--as pointed out above there are better ways to fight HIV infection.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,334

6th February 2012, 08:48 AM	#15
NewtonTrino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bothell, WA Posts: 3,803	If someone tried to circumcise my children without my permission they would be starting down the barrel of a gun.

6th February 2012, 08:51 AM	#16
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,264	Originally Posted by NewtonTrino If someone tried to circumcise my children without my permission they would be starting down the barrel of a gun. "If someone circumcises you, you circumcise them right back". You figure out how far you want to go.
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.

6th February 2012, 09:22 AM	#17
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,286	Originally Posted by NewtonTrino If someone tried to circumcise my children without my permission they would be starting down the barrel of a gun. If I see someone circumcising a child on a plane.....

6th February 2012, 09:47 AM	#18
NewtonTrino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bothell, WA Posts: 3,803	Basically I don't see it as any different than cutting off a finger or any other body part. Having the government force that on your seems, well just wrong, to me.

6th February 2012, 10:20 AM	#19
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by Ryokan If I see someone circumcising a child on a plane..... You'll rip off REO Speedwagon?
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

6th February 2012, 11:16 AM	#20
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,241	Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth Dpesn't indonesia have the worlds largest muslim population? Circumcision has no benefits wrt HIV prevention and may be counter productive. There are other reasons to avoid this pointless, mutilating, surgery. Previous thread. ETA: Darat I think this is the one your were referring to, it's the most recent lengthy thread on the subject. That thread had a fairly detailed examination of the benefits (damn all) and the risks (deaths, infection, sexual dysfunction et cetera). I think the best summary is: Originally Posted by Royal Dutch Medical Association "There is no convincing evidence that circumcision is useful or necessary in terms of prevention or hygiene... circumcision entails the risk of medical and psychological complications... Non-therapeutic circumcision of male minors conflicts with the child's right to autonomy and physical integrity."
	Last edited by catsmate1; 6th February 2012 at 11:26 AM. Reason: ETA'd

6th February 2012, 12:32 PM	#21
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,907	I've long felt "Indonesia" sounds like some sort of viral disease.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,907

6th February 2012, 01:39 PM	#22
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743	Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp "If someone circumcises you, you circumcise them right back". You figure out how far you want to go. If they bring a knife, you bring a gun. If they put one of yours in the hospital you put one of theirs in the morgue. If they circumcise one of yours, you castrate one of theirs. - The Untouchables, directors cut.
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743

6th February 2012, 02:19 PM	#23
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,396	Good timing with this thread. We're having a huge discussion about this in "birthing class" tomorrow.
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,396	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

7th February 2012, 11:41 PM	#24
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for its dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 2,914	Originally Posted by Darat There was a very long thread (as all circumcision threads seem to be - that's irony) on here, try searching with "circumcision" as a tag? Yah. Who could possibly bear to cut a circumcision thread short.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

9th February 2012, 10:51 AM	#25
Antiquehunter Degenerate Gambler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: El Quisco, Chile; Sometimes, Kabul, Afghanistan; currently, Port Moresby, PNG Posts: 4,522	I'm actually surprised its not targetting the province that houses most of the Balinese people. There are frequent tensions IIRC between the Muslim populace and the Balinese, this would strike me as an insidious way to get in a 'dig'. Not sure if the Balinese have a tradition of circumcision or not.
	__________________ "If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people in the world?" -Stephen Fry, 2006

9th February 2012, 11:13 AM	#26
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,241	Originally Posted by Antiquehunter I'm actually surprised its not targetting the province that houses most of the Balinese people. There are frequent tensions IIRC between the Muslim populace and the Balinese, this would strike me as an insidious way to get in a 'dig'. Not sure if the Balinese have a tradition of circumcision or not. A quick review of Boon would indicate no, circumcision is absolutely not part of Balinese culture or religious practices. Apparently this was/is a source of frication between the Balinese, Buginese and Muslim populations.

9th February 2012, 08:47 PM	#27
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,371	Originally Posted by catsmate1 A quick review of Boon would indicate no, circumcision is absolutely not part of Balinese culture or religious practices. Apparently this was/is a source of frication between the Balinese, Buginese and Muslim populations. WTF is frication? Is that like circumcision, but using a rasp file instead of a blade?
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

9th February 2012, 09:47 PM	#28
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field. Posts: 9,953	I'm more interested in knowing what this "Boon" thing is.
	__________________ Latest Blog Posts:Atheism+ More Atheism+ stuff

9th February 2012, 11:18 PM	#29
myowninvention Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 136	Originally Posted by Redtail Good timing with this thread. We're having a huge discussion about this in "birthing class" tomorrow. Ooh....I remember going through that with my first- our instructor was convinced that it really was a hygiene issue.
myowninvention Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 136

10th February 2012, 12:48 PM	#30
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,241	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor WTF is frication? Is that like circumcision, but using a rasp file instead of a blade? I'll be sure to ridicule your typo's in future too.......... Thought your comment did remind me of a BDSM documentary that has an interesting use for a cheese grater. Originally Posted by Wildy I'm more interested in knowing what this "Boon" thing is. He's an anthropologist, Professor Emeritus at Princeton, who did a lot of fieldwork and research amongst the Balinese. My reference was specifically from his book The Anthropological Romance of Bali where he discusses the place of circumcision rituals, e.g. Originally Posted by Boon, TAROB p211 "There simply could be nothing less Balinese; a painful initiation rite in an imageless, flowerless, smokeless, holy-waterless cell." among the Balinese, Buginese and other groups. FYI here's an article on the subject from the Bali Advertiser from 2006.

15th February 2012, 06:42 PM	#31
JB1 New Blood Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 2	Interesting thread. So first the World Health Organisation and UNAIDS target Africa for circumcision and now Indonesia is requiring the snip in Christian areas allegedly for the same reasons (HIV). Meanwhile the Middle East, America, Philipines, Indigenous Australians, South Pacific Islanders and South Korea get the snip for other reasons and Islam which requires the procedure continues to grow eg. France. I have read that currently about one third of the world's men have had it. I wonder where that will end up. Naïve1000 gave links to a page on the Whole Network about a small circumcision study, an article from a musician physician writing in the Huffington Post, Doctors opposing circumcision, a blog from Simon Collery, a doctor who opposes circumcision, and a psychologist who says that the type of medical claims that are made by the WHO are incorrect. Based on these links some people obviously feel rather strongly about the relevant snip. I wonder how they feel about the way things are going.
JB1 New Blood Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 2	Last edited by JB1; 15th February 2012 at 06:47 PM. Reason: got handle name wrong

16th February 2012, 11:38 AM	#32
ZirconBlue Sole Survivor of L-Town Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wilson, North Carolina, USA, Earth Posts: 11,402	Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin Yah. Who could possibly bear to cut a circumcision thread short. I don't know. There are always people trying to jump in and cut these threads off in their infancy.
	__________________ Religion and sex are powerplays. Manipulate the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God The numbers look the same on their credit cards.

17th February 2012, 03:54 AM	#33
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,241	Originally Posted by JB1 Interesting thread. So first the World Health Organisation and UNAIDS target Africa for circumcision and now Indonesia is requiring the snip in Christian areas allegedly for the same reasons (HIV). Meanwhile the Middle East, America, Philipines, Indigenous Australians, South Pacific Islanders and South Korea get the snip for other reasons and Islam which requires the procedure continues to grow eg. France. I have read that currently about one third of the world's men have had it. I wonder where that will end up. Naïve1000 gave links to a page on the Whole Network about a small circumcision study, an article from a musician physician writing in the Huffington Post, Doctors opposing circumcision, a blog from Simon Collery, a doctor who opposes circumcision, and a psychologist who says that the type of medical claims that are made by the WHO are incorrect. Based on these links some people obviously feel rather strongly about the relevant snip. I wonder how they feel about the way things are going. Circumcision rates are declining in the developed world, especially the USA; other than religious/cultural reasons (which are under legal and ethical scrutiny in some countries) or medical necessity it's almost unheard of in Europe. Of course it has negligible medical benefits and significant risks so hopefully the practice will decline further.

17th February 2012, 04:31 AM	#34
Skepticemea Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: London, UK Posts: 2,313	Just how big is Indonesia's foreskin???

17th February 2012, 06:07 AM	#35
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	I wonder if there's any sailors out there with a big enough clipper for the job.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.