Any biologists out there? A question.

TillEulenspiegel · 10th May 2004, 01:31 PM

I recently saw a special about Australia on PBS. The topic was poisonous lifeforms on that continent. What I don't get is they would profile say a snake that is 50 times more toxic ( venom wise ) then a cobra. Then they show a monitor lizard eating the snake, hitting it against a rock first to kill it because if the snake bit the lizard it would die. OK this scenario was repeated numerous times with different animals. My question is , if the toxins are strong enough to kill the predator , why when the predator eats the poisonous animal is it not affected by the toxin? Enzymes or acid in the stomach, no direct contact with the blood stream?

Is it the same mechanism that allows domestic animals ( dogs,cats) to eat spoiled food that would kill a human , or at least make us very ill?

TeaBag420 · 10th May 2004, 01:39 PM

It could be either acid or some other substance in the digestive system, or maybe the lizard was trying to kill the snake because a dead snake is easier to eat than a live snake.

Humans eat cobra venom as a recreational drug.

Pantastic · 10th May 2004, 01:55 PM

Swallow a load of insulin - no effect.
Inject a load of insulin into your bloodstream - coma and death.

The route of administration is important for many poisonous substances. The reason varies. It may be metabolised by acid or enzymes, it may not be absorbed in large quantities if at all, it may be absorbed but be metabolised or made safe by the liver (all substances absorbed in the gut go through the liver before entering the general circulation, intravenous administration bypasses this. It is known as 'first pass metabolism').

Bikewer · 10th May 2004, 06:11 PM

Most snake venoms are modified salivas, and assist in starting the digestive process on the prey animal.

As I recall, (and it's been many years since I read Ditmars) they are protiens that are readily broken down by the digestive process.

SquishyDave · 10th May 2004, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pantastic
Swallow a load of insulin - no effect.
Inject a load of insulin into your bloodstream - coma and death.

The route of administration is important for many poisonous substances. The reason varies. It may be metabolised by acid or enzymes, it may not be absorbed in large quantities if at all, it may be absorbed but be metabolised or made safe by the liver (all substances absorbed in the gut go through the liver before entering the general circulation, intravenous administration bypasses this. It is known as 'first pass metabolism').

What he said, someone wrote to Randi applying for the 1 million prize, their supernatural feat? Swallowing snake venom with no ill effects. Randi's response? Go away, everyone can do that!

Also note however, that if you happend to have a cut in your mouth or something, you may get some venom in your blood stream, and will get sick.

Pantastic · 11th May 2004, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SquishyDave
What he said, someone wrote to Randi applying for the 1 million prize, their supernatural feat? Swallowing snake venom with no ill effects. Randi's response? Go away, everyone can do that!

For $1,000,000 though - it was worth try, wasn't it?!

Badly Shaved Monkey · 11th May 2004, 06:08 AM

Just to clarify and make the connection that has not qute been made explicit.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bikewer
As I recall, (and it's been many years since I read Ditmars) they are [proteins] that are readily broken down by the digestive process.

The venoms are proteins, like insulin is a protein hence...

Quote:

Originally posted by Pantastic
Swallow a load of insulin - no effect.
Inject a load of insulin into your bloodstream - coma and death.

The route of administration is important for many poisonous substances. The reason varies. It may be metabolised by acid or enzymes, [thus] it may not be absorbed in large quantities if at all, it may be absorbed but be metabolised or made safe by the liver (all substances absorbed in the gut go through the liver before entering the general circulation, intravenous administration bypasses this. It is known as 'first pass metabolism').

But the reason why venom taken orally is not toxic is the one I have italicised, not the others.

10th May 2004, 01:31 PM	#1
TillEulenspiegel Master Poster Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,310	Any biologists out there? A question. I recently saw a special about Australia on PBS. The topic was poisonous lifeforms on that continent. What I don't get is they would profile say a snake that is 50 times more toxic ( venom wise ) then a cobra. Then they show a monitor lizard eating the snake, hitting it against a rock first to kill it because if the snake bit the lizard it would die. OK this scenario was repeated numerous times with different animals. My question is , if the toxins are strong enough to kill the predator , why when the predator eats the poisonous animal is it not affected by the toxin? Enzymes or acid in the stomach, no direct contact with the blood stream? Is it the same mechanism that allows domestic animals ( dogs,cats) to eat spoiled food that would kill a human , or at least make us very ill?
	__________________ "God does not play dice with the universe." Albert Einstein "Who is Einstein to tell God what to do?" Niels Bohr Remember, %97.3 of all accidents occur %100 of the time.

10th May 2004, 01:39 PM	#2
TeaBag420 Banned Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,125	It could be either acid or some other substance in the digestive system, or maybe the lizard was trying to kill the snake because a dead snake is easier to eat than a live snake. Humans eat cobra venom as a recreational drug.
TeaBag420 Banned Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,125

10th May 2004, 01:55 PM	#3
Pantastic Scholar Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 101	Swallow a load of insulin - no effect. Inject a load of insulin into your bloodstream - coma and death. The route of administration is important for many poisonous substances. The reason varies. It may be metabolised by acid or enzymes, it may not be absorbed in large quantities if at all, it may be absorbed but be metabolised or made safe by the liver (all substances absorbed in the gut go through the liver before entering the general circulation, intravenous administration bypasses this. It is known as 'first pass metabolism').
Pantastic Scholar Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 101

10th May 2004, 08:18 PM	#5
SquishyDave Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2003 Location: Canberra Posts: 1,644	Quote: Originally posted by Pantastic Swallow a load of insulin - no effect. Inject a load of insulin into your bloodstream - coma and death. The route of administration is important for many poisonous substances. The reason varies. It may be metabolised by acid or enzymes, it may not be absorbed in large quantities if at all, it may be absorbed but be metabolised or made safe by the liver (all substances absorbed in the gut go through the liver before entering the general circulation, intravenous administration bypasses this. It is known as 'first pass metabolism'). What he said, someone wrote to Randi applying for the 1 million prize, their supernatural feat? Swallowing snake venom with no ill effects. Randi's response? Go away, everyone can do that! Also note however, that if you happend to have a cut in your mouth or something, you may get some venom in your blood stream, and will get sick.
	__________________ Squishy doesn't irritate the hell out of me. - Quester_X

11th May 2004, 04:10 AM	#6
Pantastic Scholar Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 101	Quote: Originally posted by SquishyDave What he said, someone wrote to Randi applying for the 1 million prize, their supernatural feat? Swallowing snake venom with no ill effects. Randi's response? Go away, everyone can do that! For $1,000,000 though - it was worth try, wasn't it?!
Pantastic Scholar Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 101

10th May 2004, 06:11 PM	#4
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,528	Most snake venoms are modified salivas, and assist in starting the digestive process on the prey animal. As I recall, (and it's been many years since I read Ditmars) they are protiens that are readily broken down by the digestive process.

11th May 2004, 06:08 AM	#7
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,262	Just to clarify and make the connection that has not qute been made explicit. Quote: Originally posted by Bikewer As I recall, (and it's been many years since I read Ditmars) they are [proteins] that are readily broken down by the digestive process. The venoms are proteins, like insulin is a protein hence... Quote: Originally posted by Pantastic Swallow a load of insulin - no effect. Inject a load of insulin into your bloodstream - coma and death. The route of administration is important for many poisonous substances. The reason varies. It may be metabolised by acid or enzymes, [thus] it may not be absorbed in large quantities if at all, it may be absorbed but be metabolised or made safe by the liver (all substances absorbed in the gut go through the liver before entering the general circulation, intravenous administration bypasses this. It is known as 'first pass metabolism'). But the reason why venom taken orally is not toxic is the one I have italicised, not the others.
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.