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RobRoy · 17th February 2012, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Limbo

In that case I'm going to stop reading your post right there and put you on my ignore list. I don't much care for rude posters. But thanks for starting your post with a heads up. It saved me the trouble of reading your entire post.

Thanks for making my argument for me.

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by RobRoy

Thanks for making my argument for me.

I wasn't surprised by his response. Limbo is not interested in the truth, he just wants to tell us how great he is and what wallies we are. Sad and pathetic.

nowornever · 17th February 2012, 01:45 PM

jond and Resume-it probably means that u r 9 as nienes have no personality, like me. Welcome to the club of personality pype 9.
Limbo-probably you are 9. Look above. or 7 cause they like pleaxure and entertainment.
yy2bggggs Akhenaten-u might be 1 as they like rules.
Ron_Tomkins-ones like saying NO NO NO, or 5(analisis) or 8 fight, opponents
Tricky-nines like agreeing with others.
Foster Zygote-2 or 1 jokes jokes, rather 1 jokes , or 8 fighting with rivals
zooterkin and RobRoy-4 tragic romantic, I think.
Craig4-probably boss/protector 8.
Akhenaten-might be 7 as they like spirits.
Donn-1 as they like jokes
Hokulele-5 thnker, observer
beachnut-1 jokes or 8 bossy
JJM 777-5 thinker?
dafydd-8bossy or 1 no no no no, probably 1
baron-8? competition, challenge
IMST-7 optimist
Craig4-5 thinking or 8 fighting
Twiler-5 thinker or 8 fight
Elizabeth I-1have to, or 9interested in others or 8 fight
Piscivore-8fighter or 9thinking about others

Twiler · 17th February 2012, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Limbo

Eh, neither of you are in touch with reality. What you are in touch with are your belief systems.

Suppose some character in The Matrix ran around asking, 'who is enlightened here'. Lots of people might say, 'I am', but only characters who have been freed from the illusion of the Matrix would be right to say that, not the characters who are so very trapped that they think what the Matrix tells them is reality.

Within the context of The Matrix, you have to go down the rabbit hole to be enlightened. In other words, you have to experience things that people who are still trapped in The Matrix can't understand by turning to their science. You see, their science is trapped in The Matrix too.

That which is unknowable is irrelevant. The true nature of reality doesn't matter, only the relationships between my actions and the resulting reactions.

Why, exactly, should we listen to you? You haven't offered a blue pill, you've just said, 'You can't be sure.' We can't be sure that Odin doesn't exist, that Zeus doesn't exist. Why should we waste any time searching? So we can turn around to the people walking down the same path and say 'Yep, it's definitely here, I'll sell you a flashlight.' ?

I'd rather stick with quantifiable things.

RobRoy · 17th February 2012, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

I wasn't surprised by his response. Limbo is not interested in the truth, he just wants to tell us how great he is and what wallies we are. Sad and pathetic.

I don't mind being a "wally" (hope that's the proper usage), but I'd like some reasoning behind why I am, so that I can adjust my perspective. I've learned a lot by coming to this forum and reading any number of threads. There are some incredibly deep, and critical thinkers here, and even if I don't say anything, I like to read their opinions and discussions.

<shrug>

If someone actually could astrally project, and view different places, different times, it would be so damned cool I could barely sit still for want of learning. But all we get is, "you wouldn't understand because you're too logical". That does no good whatsoever.

Also, I think Limbo is lying about reading my entire post.

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by nowornever

jond-it probably means that u r 9 as nienes have no personality, like me. Welcome to the club of personality pype 9.
Limbo-probably you are 9. Look above. or 7 cause they like pleaxure and entertainment.
yy2bggggs-u might be 1 as they like rules.
Ron_Tomkins-ones like saying NO NO NO
Tricky-nines like agreeing with others.
Foster Zygote-2

Can we have that again in English please?

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by RobRoy

I don't mind being a "wally" (hope that's the proper usage), but I'd like some reasoning behind why I am, so that I can adjust my perspective. I've learned a lot by coming to this forum and reading any number of threads. There are some incredibly deep, and critical thinkers here, and even if I don't say anything, I like to read their opinions and discussions.

<shrug>

If someone actually could astrally project, and view different places, different times, it would be so damned cool I could barely sit still for want of learning. But all we get is, "you wouldn't understand because you're too logical". That does no good whatsoever.

Also, I think Limbo is lying about reading my entire post.

That is a very big laconic if.

Limbo · 17th February 2012, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Twiler

That which is unknowable is irrelevant. The true nature of reality doesn't matter, only the relationships between my actions and the resulting reactions.

Why, exactly, should we listen to you? You haven't offered a blue pill, you've just said, 'You can't be sure.' We can't be sure that Odin doesn't exist, that Zeus doesn't exist. Why should we waste any time searching? So we can turn around to the people walking down the same path and say 'Yep, it's definitely here, I'll sell you a flashlight.' ?

I'd rather stick with quantifiable things.

So, if a character in The Matrix doesn't want to go down the rabbit hole, then what's on the otherside is unknowable? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

Just because something is outside the scope of science doesn't mean it's unknowable. It means you have to take the metaphorical plunge yourself. Like Neo did. It's the only way to pierce the illusion and gain enlightenment. Science can't do it for you.

What if Neo had turned down the pill and asked Morpheus to prove his claims by e-mailing him some peer-reviewed scientific papers instead?

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Limbo

So, if a character in The Matrix doesn't want to go down the rabbit hole, then what's on the otherside is unknowable? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

Just because something is outside the scope of science doesn't mean it's unknowable. It means you have to take the metaphorical plunge yourself. Like Neo did. It's the only way to pierce the illusion and gain enlightenment. Science can't do it for you.

What if Neo had turned down the pill and asked Morpheus to e-mail him some peer-reviewed scientific papers instead?

You do know that the Matrix was fiction? I don't suppose that makes any difference to you, given that you tell us fictional stories about visits to the dark side of the Moon.

zooterkin · 17th February 2012, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Limbo

So, if a character in The Matrix doesn't want to go down the rabbit hole, then what's on the otherside is unknowable? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

Just because something is outside the scope of science doesn't mean it's unknowable. It means you have to take the metaphorical plunge yourself. Like Neo did. It's the only way to pierce the illusion and gain enlightenment. Science can't do it for you.

What if Neo had turned down the pill and asked Morpheus to prove his claims by e-mailing him some peer-reviewed scientific papers instead?

Science deals with reality, with what can be detected. There's nothing wrong with imagination, just don't confuse it with reality.

Olowkow · 17th February 2012, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

I think this guy is enlightened.

Finally, a kindred spirit.

Excellent.

RobRoy · 17th February 2012, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

That is a very big laconic if.

Granted. But I'm a romantic.

Originally Posted by dafydd

You do know that the Matrix was fiction? I don't suppose that makes any difference to you, given that you tell us fictional stories about visits to the dark side of the Moon.

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Science deals with reality, with what can be detected. There's nothing wrong with imagination, just don't confuse it with reality.

Either way, Limbo has yet to offer the "pills". He's just arguing the point. As a wannabe Sophist, I admire the argument for its own sake, but there's nothing behind it.

Olowkow · 17th February 2012, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by RobRoy

Thanks for making my argument for me.

I'm on his list, and I wasn't even being rude. C'est la vie.

Hokulele · 17th February 2012, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by nowornever

Hokulele-5 thnker, observer

Really?

Originally Posted by nowornever

...

Type Five is perceptive, innovative, secretive, and isolated.

...

So, I'm like ... a Bond villain. Cool!

Twiler · 17th February 2012, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Limbo

So, if a character in The Matrix doesn't want to go down the rabbit hole, then what's on the otherside is unknowable? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

You haven't demonstrated the existence of a rabbithole, you're just saying that we can't know there isn't one. How do you know that there isn't another one that you haven't found, that brings you back here?

Originally Posted by Limbo

Just because something is outside the scope of science doesn't mean it's unknowable. It means you have to take the metaphorical plunge yourself. Like Neo did. It's the only way to pierce the illusion and gain enlightenment. Science can't do it for you.

What if Neo had turned down the pill and asked Morpheus to prove his claims by e-mailing him some peer-reviewed scientific papers instead?

He'd have said 'No.'

Do you have a blue pill, something that will yield guaranteed results?

RobRoy · 17th February 2012, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

So, I'm like ... a Bond villain. Cool!

I've always thought of you more as a Bond Girl, but in the Michelle Yeoh tradition.

Hokulele · 17th February 2012, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by RobRoy

I've always thought of you more as a Bond Girl, but in the Michelle Yeoh tradition.

Considering that somehow your quote has dafydd's name in it, I am amused.

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by RobRoy

I've always thought of you more as a Bond Girl, but in the Michelle Yeoh tradition.

I didn't post that. Girl?

nowornever · 17th February 2012, 02:34 PM

jond and Resume-it probably means that u r 9 as nienes have no personality, like me. Welcome to the club of personality pype 9.
Limbo-probably you are 9. Look above. or 7 cause they like pleaxure and entertainment.
yy2bggggs Akhenaten-u might be 1 as they like rules.
Ron_Tomkins-ones like saying NO NO NO, or 5(analisis) or 8 fight, opponents
Tricky-nines like agreeing with others.
Foster Zygote-2 or 1 jokes jokes, rather 1 jokes , or 8 fighting with rivals
zooterkin and RobRoy-4 tragic romantic, I think.
Craig4-probably boss/protector 8.
Akhenaten-might be 7 as they like spirits.
Donn-1 as they like jokes
Hokulele-5 thnker, observer
beachnut-1 jokes or 8 bossy
JJM 777-5 thinker?
dafydd-8bossy or 1 no no no no, probably 1
baron-8? competition, challenge
IMST-7 optimist
Craig4-5 thinking or 8 fighting
Twiler-5 thinker or 8 fight
Elizabeth I-1have to, or 9interested in others or 8 fight
Piscivore-8fighter or 9thinking about others
ynot-1 no no no, disagree, knows better

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by nowornever

jond and Resume-it probably means that u r 9 as nienes have no personality, like me. Welcome to the club of personality pype 9.
Limbo-probably you are 9. Look above. or 7 cause they like pleaxure and entertainment.
yy2bggggs Akhenaten-u might be 1 as they like rules.
Ron_Tomkins-ones like saying NO NO NO, or 5(analisis) or 8 fight, opponents
Tricky-nines like agreeing with others.
Foster Zygote-2 or 1 jokes jokes, rather 1 jokes , or 8 fighting with rivals
zooterkin and RobRoy-4 tragic romantic, I think.
Craig4-probably boss/protector 8.
Akhenaten-might be 7 as they like spirits.
Donn-1 as they like jokes
Hokulele-5 thnker, observer
beachnut-1 jokes or 8 bossy
JJM 777-5 thinker?
dafydd-8bossy or 1 no no no no, probably 1
baron-8? competition, challenge
IMST-7 optimist
Craig4-5 thinking or 8 fighting
Twiler-5 thinker or 8 fight
Elizabeth I-1have to, or 9interested in others or 8 fight
Piscivore-8fighter or 9thinking about others

Mods, could you please stop him spamming this nonsense?

Limbo · 17th February 2012, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Twiler

You haven't demonstrated the existence of a rabbithole, you're just saying that we can't know there isn't one. How do you know that there isn't another one that you haven't found, that brings you back here?

Pointing you to the rabbit hole is easy. Telling you where it leads is hard.

'Unfortunately no one can be told, they have to see for themselves' -Morpheus

Quote:

He'd have said 'No.'

Why would he say that? Because he was wrong? Or because what they were doing was beyond the scope of science?

Quote:

Do you have a blue pill, something that will yield guaranteed results?

In a manner of speaking, yes.

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Limbo

In a manner of speaking, yes.

And in another manner of speaking, no, just tall tales from your imagination.

Twiler · 17th February 2012, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Limbo

Pointing you to the rabbit hole is easy. Telling you where it leads is hard.

'Unfortunately no one can be told, they have to see for themselves' -Morpheus

He was an idiot. Third panel here: http://xkcd.com/566/

That describes it.

Originally Posted by Limbo

Why would he say that? Because he was wrong? Or because what they were doing was beyond the scope of science?

Because they weren't trying. They could have provided him with pictures of the outside, historical accounts of the robot takeover, and theories linking up inconsistencies in the simulation. It was simpler to just give him a pill they were pretty sure he'd accept.

Originally Posted by Limbo

In a manner of speaking, yes.

Meaning, no.

RobRoy · 17th February 2012, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

Considering that somehow your quote has dafydd's name in it, I am amused.

Originally Posted by dafydd

I didn't post that. Girl?

I don't know how that happened. I actually had a response to you as well, but the only one that showed up was meant for Hokulele. Maybe the spirits are playing with my keyboard.

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by RobRoy

I don't know how that happened. I actually had a response to you as well, but the only one that showed up was meant for Hokulele. Maybe the spirits are playing with my keyboard.

Limbo getting up to tricks with his astral body

RobRoy · 17th February 2012, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Limbo

Why would he say that? Because he was wrong? Or because what they were doing was beyond the scope of science?

Actually, no (not that you can read this). It was all within the scope of science. The pill Neo took didn't do anything magical to him, it was a tracking program (IIRC). Granted, there was a great deal of science fiction to The Matrix films, but that hardly removes them from the realm of science to the realm of . . . astral projection.

Limbo · 17th February 2012, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Twiler

Because they weren't trying. They could have provided him with pictures of the outside, historical accounts of the robot takeover, and theories linking up inconsistencies in the simulation. It was simpler to just give him a pill they were pretty sure he'd accept.

Pictures and accounts can be faked. James Randi would scoff and walk out on Morpheus if he provided him with that kind of thing.

Quote:

Meaning, no.

Meaning it's not a literal hole. It's that which the rabbit hole metaphor refers to.

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Limbo

Meaning it's not a literal hole. It's that which the rabbit hole metaphor refers to.

And what would that be?

Twiler · 17th February 2012, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Limbo

Pictures and accounts can be faked. James Randi would scoff and walk out on Morpheus if he provided him with that kind of thing.

There must be a limit. Eventually, there would be enough evidence.

Originally Posted by Limbo

Meaning it's not a literal hole. It's that which the rabbit hole metaphor refers to.

We were talking about the blue pill in this exchange, not the rabbit hole. Like this:

Quote:

Do you have a blue pill, something that will yield guaranteed results?

Quote:

In a manner of speaking, yes.

Quote:

Meaning, no.

Your response does not continue this dialogue.

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 03:07 PM

The Matrix was just a film, and not a very good film given that it starred the awful actor Keanu Reeves, who either looks like a man being stung by a wasp or a man not being stung by a wasp.

Limbo · 17th February 2012, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Twiler

There must be a limit. Eventually, there would be enough evidence.

Inconclusive, anecdotal evidence would be all Morpheus could provide, despite the truth of his claims. Randi would end up rolling his eyes at the lack of decisive scientific evidence. He would call Morpheus a woo-woo and accuse him of trying to recruit him into his "matrix" cult.

Quote:

Your response does not continue this dialogue.

Would Randi take the blue pill or the red pill? The red pill sends you down the metaphorical rabbit hole. That's what I can point the truth-seeker toward.

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Limbo

Inconclusive, anecdotal evidence would be all Morpheus could provide, despite the truth of his claims. Randi would end up rolling his eyes at the lack of decisive scientific evidence. He would call Morpheus a woo-woo and accuse him of trying to recruit him into his "matrix" cult.

Would Randi take the blue pill or the red pill? The red pill sends you down the rabbit hole. That's what I can point the truth-seeker toward.

You still have to present some proof of the existence of your mystical rabbit hole. All you have pointed us to so far are your tall stories.

ynot · 17th February 2012, 03:18 PM

Only atheists are religiously enlightened.

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

Only atheists are religiously enlightened.

Very true. The rest just suffer under one delusion or another.

Resume · 17th February 2012, 03:40 PM

Geez, The Matrix again? Limbo, watch another movie already.

Piscivore · 17th February 2012, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Limbo

That almost sounds like an argumentum ad populum.

Then your understanding of fallacies is backwards as well. You alone answered the question "Who is religiously enlightened here?" in the affirmative. You are the only one who believes it. Where is the "populum" there? Plus, I made no "argumentum", simply an observation. You claimed many "would" claim to be enlightened, but in fact they did not- just you.

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

Geez, The Matrix again? Limbo, watch another movie already.

He thinks that it is a documentary.

dafydd · 17th February 2012, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

Then your understanding of fallacies is backwards as well. You alone answered the question "Who is religiously enlightened here?" in the affirmative. Where is the "populum" there?

Did you ever see a mystic getting anything right?

Piscivore · 17th February 2012, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

Geez, The Matrix again? Limbo, watch another movie already.

Second that.

Limbo · 17th February 2012, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

Then your understanding of fallacies is backwards as well. You alone answered the question "Who is religiously enlightened here?" in the affirmative. You are the only one who believes it. Where is the "populum" there? Plus, I made no "argumentum", simply an observation. You claimed many "would" claim to be enlightened, but in fact they did not- just you.

Then I apologize for misunderstanding you. I thought you were referring to an entirely different claim. I should have asked you for clarification.

For the sake of argument lets say I am the only one in this thread who claims to be enlightened and really believes it. Would you find that to be 'curious'? Why?

17th February 2012, 01:41 PM	#361
RobRoy Not A Mormon Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the sandbox Posts: 12,141	Originally Posted by Limbo In that case I'm going to stop reading your post right there and put you on my ignore list. I don't much care for rude posters. But thanks for starting your post with a heads up. It saved me the trouble of reading your entire post. Thanks for making my argument for me.
	__________________ Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. – whatthebutlersaw Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. All your base are belong to us.

17th February 2012, 01:43 PM	#362
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by RobRoy Thanks for making my argument for me. I wasn't surprised by his response. Limbo is not interested in the truth, he just wants to tell us how great he is and what wallies we are. Sad and pathetic.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th February 2012, 01:45 PM	#363
nowornever Thinker Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 247	jond and Resume-it probably means that u r 9 as nienes have no personality, like me. Welcome to the club of personality pype 9. Limbo-probably you are 9. Look above. or 7 cause they like pleaxure and entertainment. yy2bggggs Akhenaten-u might be 1 as they like rules. Ron_Tomkins-ones like saying NO NO NO, or 5(analisis) or 8 fight, opponents Tricky-nines like agreeing with others. Foster Zygote-2 or 1 jokes jokes, rather 1 jokes , or 8 fighting with rivals zooterkin and RobRoy-4 tragic romantic, I think. Craig4-probably boss/protector 8. Akhenaten-might be 7 as they like spirits. Donn-1 as they like jokes Hokulele-5 thnker, observer beachnut-1 jokes or 8 bossy JJM 777-5 thinker? dafydd-8bossy or 1 no no no no, probably 1 baron-8? competition, challenge IMST-7 optimist Craig4-5 thinking or 8 fighting Twiler-5 thinker or 8 fight Elizabeth I-1have to, or 9interested in others or 8 fight Piscivore-8fighter or 9thinking about others
nowornever Thinker Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 247	Last edited by nowornever; 17th February 2012 at 02:33 PM.

17th February 2012, 01:46 PM	#364
Twiler Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,494	Originally Posted by Limbo Eh, neither of you are in touch with reality. What you are in touch with are your belief systems. Suppose some character in The Matrix ran around asking, 'who is enlightened here'. Lots of people might say, 'I am', but only characters who have been freed from the illusion of the Matrix would be right to say that, not the characters who are so very trapped that they think what the Matrix tells them is reality. Within the context of The Matrix, you have to go down the rabbit hole to be enlightened. In other words, you have to experience things that people who are still trapped in The Matrix can't understand by turning to their science. You see, their science is trapped in The Matrix too. That which is unknowable is irrelevant. The true nature of reality doesn't matter, only the relationships between my actions and the resulting reactions. Why, exactly, should we listen to you? You haven't offered a blue pill, you've just said, 'You can't be sure.' We can't be sure that Odin doesn't exist, that Zeus doesn't exist. Why should we waste any time searching? So we can turn around to the people walking down the same path and say 'Yep, it's definitely here, I'll sell you a flashlight.' ? I'd rather stick with quantifiable things.
Twiler Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,494

17th February 2012, 01:47 PM	#365
RobRoy Not A Mormon Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the sandbox Posts: 12,141	Originally Posted by dafydd I wasn't surprised by his response. Limbo is not interested in the truth, he just wants to tell us how great he is and what wallies we are. Sad and pathetic. I don't mind being a "wally" (hope that's the proper usage), but I'd like some reasoning behind why I am, so that I can adjust my perspective. I've learned a lot by coming to this forum and reading any number of threads. There are some incredibly deep, and critical thinkers here, and even if I don't say anything, I like to read their opinions and discussions. <shrug> If someone actually could astrally project, and view different places, different times, it would be so damned cool I could barely sit still for want of learning. But all we get is, "you wouldn't understand because you're too logical". That does no good whatsoever. Also, I think Limbo is lying about reading my entire post.
	__________________ Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. – whatthebutlersaw Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. All your base are belong to us. Last edited by RobRoy; 17th February 2012 at 01:48 PM.

17th February 2012, 02:01 PM	#366
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by nowornever jond-it probably means that u r 9 as nienes have no personality, like me. Welcome to the club of personality pype 9. Limbo-probably you are 9. Look above. or 7 cause they like pleaxure and entertainment. yy2bggggs-u might be 1 as they like rules. Ron_Tomkins-ones like saying NO NO NO Tricky-nines like agreeing with others. Foster Zygote-2 Can we have that again in English please?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th February 2012, 02:02 PM	#367
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by RobRoy I don't mind being a "wally" (hope that's the proper usage), but I'd like some reasoning behind why I am, so that I can adjust my perspective. I've learned a lot by coming to this forum and reading any number of threads. There are some incredibly deep, and critical thinkers here, and even if I don't say anything, I like to read their opinions and discussions. <shrug> If someone actually could astrally project, and view different places, different times, it would be so damned cool I could barely sit still for want of learning. But all we get is, "you wouldn't understand because you're too logical". That does no good whatsoever. Also, I think Limbo is lying about reading my entire post. That is a very big laconic if.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th February 2012, 02:06 PM	#368
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Twiler That which is unknowable is irrelevant. The true nature of reality doesn't matter, only the relationships between my actions and the resulting reactions. Why, exactly, should we listen to you? You haven't offered a blue pill, you've just said, 'You can't be sure.' We can't be sure that Odin doesn't exist, that Zeus doesn't exist. Why should we waste any time searching? So we can turn around to the people walking down the same path and say 'Yep, it's definitely here, I'll sell you a flashlight.' ? I'd rather stick with quantifiable things. So, if a character in The Matrix doesn't want to go down the rabbit hole, then what's on the otherside is unknowable? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. Just because something is outside the scope of science doesn't mean it's unknowable. It means you have to take the metaphorical plunge yourself. Like Neo did. It's the only way to pierce the illusion and gain enlightenment. Science can't do it for you. What if Neo had turned down the pill and asked Morpheus to prove his claims by e-mailing him some peer-reviewed scientific papers instead?
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief." Last edited by Limbo; 17th February 2012 at 02:11 PM.

17th February 2012, 02:12 PM	#369
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Limbo So, if a character in The Matrix doesn't want to go down the rabbit hole, then what's on the otherside is unknowable? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. Just because something is outside the scope of science doesn't mean it's unknowable. It means you have to take the metaphorical plunge yourself. Like Neo did. It's the only way to pierce the illusion and gain enlightenment. Science can't do it for you. What if Neo had turned down the pill and asked Morpheus to e-mail him some peer-reviewed scientific papers instead? You do know that the Matrix was fiction? I don't suppose that makes any difference to you, given that you tell us fictional stories about visits to the dark side of the Moon.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th February 2012, 02:15 PM	#370
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 25,042	Originally Posted by Limbo So, if a character in The Matrix doesn't want to go down the rabbit hole, then what's on the otherside is unknowable? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. Just because something is outside the scope of science doesn't mean it's unknowable. It means you have to take the metaphorical plunge yourself. Like Neo did. It's the only way to pierce the illusion and gain enlightenment. Science can't do it for you. What if Neo had turned down the pill and asked Morpheus to prove his claims by e-mailing him some peer-reviewed scientific papers instead? Science deals with reality, with what can be detected. There's nothing wrong with imagination, just don't confuse it with reality.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

17th February 2012, 02:20 PM	#371
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,928	Originally Posted by David Swidler I think this guy is enlightened. Finally, a kindred spirit. Excellent.
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,928	__________________ Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie, which we ascribe to heaven. --Shakespeare

17th February 2012, 02:20 PM	#372
RobRoy Not A Mormon Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the sandbox Posts: 12,141	Originally Posted by dafydd That is a very big laconic if. Granted. But I'm a romantic. Originally Posted by dafydd You do know that the Matrix was fiction? I don't suppose that makes any difference to you, given that you tell us fictional stories about visits to the dark side of the Moon. Originally Posted by zooterkin Science deals with reality, with what can be detected. There's nothing wrong with imagination, just don't confuse it with reality. Either way, Limbo has yet to offer the "pills". He's just arguing the point. As a wannabe Sophist, I admire the argument for its own sake, but there's nothing behind it.
	__________________ Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. – whatthebutlersaw Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. All your base are belong to us. Last edited by RobRoy; 17th February 2012 at 02:21 PM.

17th February 2012, 02:21 PM	#373
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,928	Originally Posted by RobRoy Thanks for making my argument for me. I'm on his list, and I wasn't even being rude. C'est la vie.
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,928	__________________ Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie, which we ascribe to heaven. --Shakespeare

17th February 2012, 02:22 PM	#374
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,349	Originally Posted by nowornever Hokulele-5 thnker, observer Really? Originally Posted by nowornever ... Type Five is perceptive, innovative, secretive, and isolated. ... So, I'm like ... a Bond villain. Cool!
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

17th February 2012, 02:27 PM	#375
Twiler Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,494	Originally Posted by Limbo So, if a character in The Matrix doesn't want to go down the rabbit hole, then what's on the otherside is unknowable? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. You haven't demonstrated the existence of a rabbithole, you're just saying that we can't know there isn't one. How do you know that there isn't another one that you haven't found, that brings you back here? Originally Posted by Limbo Just because something is outside the scope of science doesn't mean it's unknowable. It means you have to take the metaphorical plunge yourself. Like Neo did. It's the only way to pierce the illusion and gain enlightenment. Science can't do it for you. What if Neo had turned down the pill and asked Morpheus to prove his claims by e-mailing him some peer-reviewed scientific papers instead? He'd have said 'No.' Do you have a blue pill, something that will yield guaranteed results?
Twiler Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,494

17th February 2012, 02:27 PM	#376
RobRoy Not A Mormon Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the sandbox Posts: 12,141	Originally Posted by dafydd So, I'm like ... a Bond villain. Cool! I've always thought of you more as a Bond Girl, but in the Michelle Yeoh tradition.
	__________________ Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. – whatthebutlersaw Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. All your base are belong to us.

17th February 2012, 02:29 PM	#377
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,349	Originally Posted by RobRoy I've always thought of you more as a Bond Girl, but in the Michelle Yeoh tradition. Considering that somehow your quote has dafydd's name in it, I am amused.
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

17th February 2012, 02:34 PM	#378
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by RobRoy I've always thought of you more as a Bond Girl, but in the Michelle Yeoh tradition. I didn't post that. Girl?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away. Last edited by dafydd; 17th February 2012 at 02:35 PM.

17th February 2012, 02:34 PM	#379
nowornever Thinker Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 247	jond and Resume-it probably means that u r 9 as nienes have no personality, like me. Welcome to the club of personality pype 9. Limbo-probably you are 9. Look above. or 7 cause they like pleaxure and entertainment. yy2bggggs Akhenaten-u might be 1 as they like rules. Ron_Tomkins-ones like saying NO NO NO, or 5(analisis) or 8 fight, opponents Tricky-nines like agreeing with others. Foster Zygote-2 or 1 jokes jokes, rather 1 jokes , or 8 fighting with rivals zooterkin and RobRoy-4 tragic romantic, I think. Craig4-probably boss/protector 8. Akhenaten-might be 7 as they like spirits. Donn-1 as they like jokes Hokulele-5 thnker, observer beachnut-1 jokes or 8 bossy JJM 777-5 thinker? dafydd-8bossy or 1 no no no no, probably 1 baron-8? competition, challenge IMST-7 optimist Craig4-5 thinking or 8 fighting Twiler-5 thinker or 8 fight Elizabeth I-1have to, or 9interested in others or 8 fight Piscivore-8fighter or 9thinking about others ynot-1 no no no, disagree, knows better
nowornever Thinker Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 247	Last edited by nowornever; 17th February 2012 at 02:39 PM.

17th February 2012, 02:37 PM	#380
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by nowornever jond and Resume-it probably means that u r 9 as nienes have no personality, like me. Welcome to the club of personality pype 9. Limbo-probably you are 9. Look above. or 7 cause they like pleaxure and entertainment. yy2bggggs Akhenaten-u might be 1 as they like rules. Ron_Tomkins-ones like saying NO NO NO, or 5(analisis) or 8 fight, opponents Tricky-nines like agreeing with others. Foster Zygote-2 or 1 jokes jokes, rather 1 jokes , or 8 fighting with rivals zooterkin and RobRoy-4 tragic romantic, I think. Craig4-probably boss/protector 8. Akhenaten-might be 7 as they like spirits. Donn-1 as they like jokes Hokulele-5 thnker, observer beachnut-1 jokes or 8 bossy JJM 777-5 thinker? dafydd-8bossy or 1 no no no no, probably 1 baron-8? competition, challenge IMST-7 optimist Craig4-5 thinking or 8 fighting Twiler-5 thinker or 8 fight Elizabeth I-1have to, or 9interested in others or 8 fight Piscivore-8fighter or 9thinking about others Mods, could you please stop him spamming this nonsense?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th February 2012, 02:43 PM	#381
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Twiler You haven't demonstrated the existence of a rabbithole, you're just saying that we can't know there isn't one. How do you know that there isn't another one that you haven't found, that brings you back here? Pointing you to the rabbit hole is easy. Telling you where it leads is hard. 'Unfortunately no one can be told, they have to see for themselves' -Morpheus Quote: He'd have said 'No.' Why would he say that? Because he was wrong? Or because what they were doing was beyond the scope of science? Quote: Do you have a blue pill, something that will yield guaranteed results? In a manner of speaking, yes.
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief." Last edited by Limbo; 17th February 2012 at 02:44 PM.

17th February 2012, 02:44 PM	#382
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Limbo In a manner of speaking, yes. And in another manner of speaking, no, just tall tales from your imagination.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th February 2012, 02:53 PM	#383
Twiler Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,494	Originally Posted by Limbo Pointing you to the rabbit hole is easy. Telling you where it leads is hard. 'Unfortunately no one can be told, they have to see for themselves' -Morpheus He was an idiot. Third panel here: http://xkcd.com/566/ That describes it. Originally Posted by Limbo Why would he say that? Because he was wrong? Or because what they were doing was beyond the scope of science? Because they weren't trying. They could have provided him with pictures of the outside, historical accounts of the robot takeover, and theories linking up inconsistencies in the simulation. It was simpler to just give him a pill they were pretty sure he'd accept. Originally Posted by Limbo In a manner of speaking, yes. Meaning, no.
Twiler Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,494

17th February 2012, 02:55 PM	#384
RobRoy Not A Mormon Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the sandbox Posts: 12,141	Originally Posted by Hokulele Considering that somehow your quote has dafydd's name in it, I am amused. Originally Posted by dafydd I didn't post that. Girl? I don't know how that happened. I actually had a response to you as well, but the only one that showed up was meant for Hokulele. Maybe the spirits are playing with my keyboard.
	__________________ Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. – whatthebutlersaw Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. All your base are belong to us.

17th February 2012, 02:57 PM	#385
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by RobRoy I don't know how that happened. I actually had a response to you as well, but the only one that showed up was meant for Hokulele. Maybe the spirits are playing with my keyboard. Limbo getting up to tricks with his astral body
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th February 2012, 02:58 PM	#386
RobRoy Not A Mormon Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the sandbox Posts: 12,141	Originally Posted by Limbo Why would he say that? Because he was wrong? Or because what they were doing was beyond the scope of science? Actually, no (not that you can read this). It was all within the scope of science. The pill Neo took didn't do anything magical to him, it was a tracking program (IIRC). Granted, there was a great deal of science fiction to The Matrix films, but that hardly removes them from the realm of science to the realm of . . . astral projection.
	__________________ Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. – whatthebutlersaw Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. All your base are belong to us.

17th February 2012, 03:00 PM	#387
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Twiler Because they weren't trying. They could have provided him with pictures of the outside, historical accounts of the robot takeover, and theories linking up inconsistencies in the simulation. It was simpler to just give him a pill they were pretty sure he'd accept. Pictures and accounts can be faked. James Randi would scoff and walk out on Morpheus if he provided him with that kind of thing. Quote: Meaning, no. Meaning it's not a literal hole. It's that which the rabbit hole metaphor refers to.
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

17th February 2012, 03:02 PM	#388
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Limbo Meaning it's not a literal hole. It's that which the rabbit hole metaphor refers to. And what would that be?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th February 2012, 03:04 PM	#389
Twiler Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,494	Originally Posted by Limbo Pictures and accounts can be faked. James Randi would scoff and walk out on Morpheus if he provided him with that kind of thing. There must be a limit. Eventually, there would be enough evidence. Originally Posted by Limbo Meaning it's not a literal hole. It's that which the rabbit hole metaphor refers to. We were talking about the blue pill in this exchange, not the rabbit hole. Like this: Quote: Do you have a blue pill, something that will yield guaranteed results? Quote: In a manner of speaking, yes. Quote: Meaning, no. Your response does not continue this dialogue.
Twiler Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,494

17th February 2012, 03:07 PM	#390
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	The Matrix was just a film, and not a very good film given that it starred the awful actor Keanu Reeves, who either looks like a man being stung by a wasp or a man not being stung by a wasp.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th February 2012, 03:13 PM	#391
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Twiler There must be a limit. Eventually, there would be enough evidence. Inconclusive, anecdotal evidence would be all Morpheus could provide, despite the truth of his claims. Randi would end up rolling his eyes at the lack of decisive scientific evidence. He would call Morpheus a woo-woo and accuse him of trying to recruit him into his "matrix" cult. Quote: Your response does not continue this dialogue. Would Randi take the blue pill or the red pill? The red pill sends you down the metaphorical rabbit hole. That's what I can point the truth-seeker toward.
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief." Last edited by Limbo; 17th February 2012 at 03:35 PM.

17th February 2012, 03:17 PM	#392
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Limbo Inconclusive, anecdotal evidence would be all Morpheus could provide, despite the truth of his claims. Randi would end up rolling his eyes at the lack of decisive scientific evidence. He would call Morpheus a woo-woo and accuse him of trying to recruit him into his "matrix" cult. Would Randi take the blue pill or the red pill? The red pill sends you down the rabbit hole. That's what I can point the truth-seeker toward. You still have to present some proof of the existence of your mystical rabbit hole. All you have pointed us to so far are your tall stories.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away. Last edited by dafydd; 17th February 2012 at 03:18 PM.

17th February 2012, 03:18 PM	#393
ynot Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 4,731	Only atheists are religiously enlightened.
	__________________ Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. My post are all (IMO) unless stated otherwise.

17th February 2012, 03:22 PM	#394
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by ynot Only atheists are religiously enlightened. Very true. The rest just suffer under one delusion or another.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th February 2012, 03:40 PM	#395
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,142	Geez, The Matrix again? Limbo, watch another movie already.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,142