FREE TAPATALK APP

Cylinder · 20th April 2012, 07:53 AM

Gilbreath claims that the physical evidence is inconsistent with the altercation having moved from the sidewalk to another area.

Dancing David · 20th April 2012, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Then I'll ask you the same thing I have yet to hear a reasonable answer for. Why couldn't TM make it home in the time GZ was on the phone to 911, especially after he said he didn't know where TM was. At that point, TM had to likely travel 250 feet to be safe at home to get away. The fact that he didn't doesn't make any sense to me.

Have you seen a 17yo talking on the phone to their gf, especially if they don't want to talk in front of the family?

Dancing David · 20th April 2012, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

We'll have to disagree, because standing out there seems far from reasonable to me.

How many reasonable 17 year olds are there?

Unabogie · 20th April 2012, 08:04 AM

So the judge kept sustaining objections, but the DA was trying to ask about Zimmerman changing his stories and when confronted by police, saying "I don't remember". Too bad they couldn't dig into that.

TheL8Elvis · 20th April 2012, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Have you seen a 17yo talking on the phone to their gf, especially if they don't want to talk in front of the family?

I understand teenagers are strange beasts.

And yes, I know what they are like on the phone, but his father and his fiance were not home, they had gone to dinner, and he knew that.

TheL8Elvis · 20th April 2012, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

How many reasonable 17 year olds are there?

I can only take that so far. Yes, teenagers do dumb and/or unreasonable things.
Not calling 911.
Attacking someone who follows them ?

TheL8Elvis · 20th April 2012, 08:10 AM

$150,000 bond, with monitoring, etc.

ETA: GZ can reside out of state
ETA: needs to be worked out with SA

ETA:Judge seems like he anxious to get all the evidence into the hands of the media that they are requesting, after redacting addresses, etc.
ETA: redacted police reports, not *all* evidence I guess

Cylinder · 20th April 2012, 08:10 AM

$150,000 bond. Wow.

Natural Born Skeptic · 20th April 2012, 08:10 AM

150K bail.

Unabogie · 20th April 2012, 08:14 AM

So both sides want to keep witness statements sealed? Sounds like we won't get facts until there's a trial.

KatieG · 20th April 2012, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

$150,000 bond, with monitoring, etc.

ETA: GZ can reside out of state

ETA:Judge seems like he anxious to get all the evidence into the hands of the media that they are requesting, after redacting addresses, etc.

The judge did not give him permission to go out state yet. The SA and defense need to work that out. Defense must provide SA with the plan, subject to SA approval.

Cylinder · 20th April 2012, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

So both sides want to keep witness statements sealed? Sounds like we won't get facts until there's a trial.

The redacted police files will be released, though - so there should be some new information.

Natural Born Skeptic · 20th April 2012, 08:19 AM

The legal commentator on the station I am listening to says the state made a huge mistake by not just admitting he had a right to bond, because it allowed Omara to question the lead investigator who was not well prepared.

bonzombiekitty · 20th April 2012, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

If you believe he was on the phone with the GF, then you might as well go with what she says, which was TM spoke to GZ first, it wasn't really out of the blue.

Yeah, it wouldn't at all surprise me if that was indeed the case. I can easily see TM getting fed up with the person following him and saying "why are you following me?"

Again, not the best thing to do, but not an unreasonable reaction.

I agree that it's going to be hard to show who actually started the physical confrontation and exactly what went happened since the only other witness is dead. So we are going on a lot of speculation. I just think that given what we know about Z's state of mind at the time, I find it really unlikely that TM is the one who gets the blame for starting the physical confrontation. You got one kid walking home from the store, talking to his GF and a guy who is following someone who is, in his mind, a suspicious person and has expressed a complaint that those "******** always get away". I certainly find the idea of TM attacking Z from behind (as has been mentioned before, I forget if it was Z himself or his father who brought that up) implausible - if the GF is telling the truth, then the whole fight started right when the phone went dead.

If I had to bet, I'd bet that TM realized Z was still following him, then he and Z had a verbal confrontation. Z, tired of those "******** always getting away", attempted to restrain TM until the cops showed up, TM fought back, Z started losing the fight and, in fear for his safety, shot TM.

I don't think Z entered the situation intending to shoot TM, just that he was probably over confident and the situation got out of his control. In my mind, that's manslaughter not 2nd degree murder.

I'm not on an actual jury, so I'm not saying Z is certainly guilty. Just that, in my view, he is most likely to be the one to blame. I think the state has reasonable grounds to bring charges against him, and Z should not be able to avoid trial based on SYG, and if he can avoid trial based on SYG, there's either something we're not being told or the SYG law is completely messed up.

TheL8Elvis · 20th April 2012, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by KatieG

The judge did not give him permission to go out state yet. The SA and defense need to work that out. Defense must provide SA with the plan, subject to SA approval.

Edited my post to try to be more accurate.

TheL8Elvis · 20th April 2012, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic

The legal commentator on the station I am listening to says the state made a huge mistake by not just admitting he had a right to bond, because it allowed Omara to question the lead investigator who was not well prepared.

He looked horribly unprepared on the stand, and seemed to make statements that really could help the defense.

crimresearch · 20th April 2012, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by KatieG

The judge did not give him permission to go out state yet. The SA and defense need to work that out. Defense must provide SA with the plan, subject to SA approval.

Would you please answer my question?

KatieG · 20th April 2012, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

As a blanket statement, that is simply not true under the law, or common sense...
you don't get to punch out anyone who follows you simply for following you, or even for asking you a question.

You can drop the 'tude. But here's your answer. My read on your statement is you think TM threw the first punch since he was the one being followed.

Natural Born Skeptic · 20th April 2012, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

I've said this before, but as much as people want to claim that tailing random people is perfectly acceptable behavior, it's not. It's threatening behavior, and if Zimmerman got within striking distance while doing so, then it was Martin who was defending himself by throwing the first punch - and I see no problem with him doing so. And the story where Zimmerman was just looking for a street sign, and somehow ended up being attacked in an open walkway between houses, is laughable. If that's Zimmerman's story, then he's lying.

Originally Posted by crimresearch

As a blanket statement, that is simply not true under the law, or common sense...
you don't get to punch out anyone who follows you simply for following you, or even for asking you a question.

Originally Posted by KatieG

You can drop the 'tude. But here's your answer. My read on your statement is you think TM threw the first punch since he was the one being followed.

He's perfectly capable of defending himself but if there's one thing that drives me nuts it's when people start purposely misrepresenting what someone else said. Your "read" is wrong, that should be clear if you bothered to read the statement he was responding to. He was simply making a dispassionate explanation of the law. And if that statement was not clear enough you have a hundred others from him to go off of.

RandFan · 20th April 2012, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

$150,000 bond, with monitoring, etc.

ETA: GZ can reside out of state
ETA: needs to be worked out with SA

ETA:Judge seems like he anxious to get all the evidence into the hands of the media that they are requesting, after redacting addresses, etc.
ETA: redacted police reports, not *all* evidence I guess

Originally Posted by Cylinder

$150,000 bond. Wow.

Based on my uneducated understanding, the courts should only take into account flight risk to determine bond and monitoring, but I'm guessing that this may help assuage public outrage which has taken on a life of its own.

KatieG · 20th April 2012, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic

He's perfectly capable of defending himself but if there's one thing that drives me nuts it's when people start purposely misrepresenting what someone else said. Your "read" is wrong, that should be clear if you bothered to read the statement he was responding to. He was simply making a dispassionate explanation of the law. And if that statement was not clear enough you have a hundred others from him to go off of.

I'm sorry, I didn't know I had to check with you before I was allowed to form an opinion.

RandFan · 20th April 2012, 09:21 AM

Zimmerman testifies and apologizes and states that he did not know if Martin was armed.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t1#...-statement.cnn

Dancing David · 20th April 2012, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Cylinder

The redacted police files will be released, though - so there should be some new information.

"He reached a much higher plane of creativity the following day when he blacked out everything in the letters but a, an and the."
Catch 22

Unabogie · 20th April 2012, 09:43 AM

I hope the state lets someone else try this case. That guy just wasn't ready to do his job.

lane99 · 20th April 2012, 09:49 AM

Quote:

"I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit older than I was," Zimmerman said addressing Martin's family directly.

But the transcript of Zimmerman's call to police has him describing Martin's age as "late teens".

Zimmerman is what, 28? So why is Zimmerman now telling the boy's family he thought Martin was a bit older than him?

BenBurch · 20th April 2012, 10:16 AM

Is there anywhere GZ will be safe when released?

Noztradamus · 20th April 2012, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic

Neither was TM

. So I don't think TM had any reason to believe that he was being stalked by a crazy "admirer". In that situation I agree, it would be perfectly reasonable to not want the stalker to have the slightest idea where you live.

Lurking near a recreation centre, scoping out teenage boys.

Lanzy · 20th April 2012, 10:23 AM

Wow, just read that even manslaughter can be 30 years. They double it here in FL if committed against a minor.

TheL8Elvis · 20th April 2012, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by lane99

But the transcript of Zimmerman's call to police has him describing Martin's age as "late teens".

Zimmerman is what, 28? So why is Zimmerman now telling the boy's family he thought Martin was a bit older than him?

"I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son," Zimmerman said while on the stand. "I did not know how old he was, I thought he was a little bit younger than I am, and I did not know if he was armed or not."

That is a bit at odds with what he said on the call. I'm not sure how that is really going to cause a problem for him, though.

Unabogie · 20th April 2012, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by lane99

But the transcript of Zimmerman's call to police has him describing Martin's age as "late teens".

Zimmerman is what, 28? So why is Zimmerman now telling the boy's family he thought Martin was a bit older than him?

Interesting. Like I said, the DA kept trying to discuss Zimmerman possibly changing his story during several interviews, but the judge kept disallowing it. I wonder if this is a regular thing with him.

johnny karate · 20th April 2012, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Nothing. It's always possible.
And if you think he's guilty, I can never escape the conjecture of 'well, of course a guilty person would act like X'

My default position is to not automatically believe Zimmerman acted in self-defense just because he says so. He's a guy trying to beat a murder charge. Therefore, everything he says and does is suspect. And as more information about him and the inconsistencies in his story are revealed, it makes me disbelieve him all the more.

That other people seem to just simply believe Zimmerman as their default position remains quite puzzling to me.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

This, in my opinion, is your confirmation bias at work.
Of course GZ, being guilty, was already plotting to go to the hospital the next day so he could find a willing accomplice to lie abou this injuries after they were already documented by the EMTs.

It's not a theory I'm necessarily condoning, but merely presented as counter to yours regarding the EMTs not taking Zimmerman to the hospital.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

I can't even imagine his state of mind after just shooting and killing someone. Not going to the hospital doesn't really have to make sense to me for it to be a plausible scenario, honestly.

So Zimmerman behaving irrationally in an innocuous manner is plausible, but him behaving irrationally in a perhaps nefarious manner isn't?

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Well, it's too bad you didn't answer that question better last night.

Why? What do you suppose that photo shows that invalidates my position?

Originally Posted by Mumbles

So, basically, minor injury.

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Well, that didn't take long.

So I take it you think the photo indicates severe injuries? What specifically makes you think that?

johnny karate · 20th April 2012, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

"I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son," Zimmerman said while on the stand. "I did not know how old he was, I thought he was a little bit younger than I am, and I did not know if he was armed or not."

That is a bit at odds with what he said on the call. I'm not sure how that is really going to cause a problem for him, though.

It's an inconsistency. Perhaps a minor one, but any inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story don't reflect well on him.

The other thing he said that puzzles me is this:

Quote:

... I did not know if he was armed or not.

At what point in time is he talking about? When he first saw Martin? When he got out of his car to follow him? Or when he shot and killed him?

Context would make me think it's the third option, but Zimmerman told the police he thought Martin was going for his gun before he shot him. Seems like a strange thing for him to say.

johnny karate · 20th April 2012, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic

When the video of GZ at the police station came out that ABC broke, it was 9-5 media coverage that the video showed no evidence of wounds.

That's because it didn't. As it turns out, those "enhanced" images are not consistent with his actual wounds.

Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic

But now that we have a picture taken 3 minutes after the event the story is nowhere to be found in the headlines, other than on ABC that broke the story. It'll be interesting to see if that changes as the day proceeds.

What headline to you expect to see? "Wounds that are virtually invisible on the surveillance video can now be seen in new photo"?

We probably won't see that headline. We also probably won't see a headline indicating that the vertical "gash" from the enhance stills wasn't an accurate portrayal of Zimmerman's injuries, either. Oh well.

TheL8Elvis · 20th April 2012, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

That other people seem to just simply believe Zimmerman as their default position remains quite puzzling to me.

I'm an enigma.

Originally Posted by johnny karate

It's not a theory I'm necessarily condoning, but merely presented as counter to yours regarding the EMTs not taking Zimmerman to the hospital.
So Zimmerman behaving irrationally in an innocuous manner is plausible, but him behaving irrationally in a perhaps nefarious manner isn't?

It's possible. I guess plausible depends on how we define it.
I don't believe it's what happened, and haven't seen any evidence that it's what happened. So, is it reasonable to believe that is what happened with no evidence to support that ? No.

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Why? What do you suppose that photo shows that invalidates my position? So I take it you think the photo indicates severe injuries? What specifically makes you think that?

Like the video, the photo, in my opinion, is not inconsistent with his claims.
I don't have the medical ability to confirm or deny the claims.

Are you willing to look at the photo and proclaim that in your (medical) opinion the photo confirms:
1) it wasn't caused the way it was claimed by GZ
2) it's impossible someone looked at it the next day and opined it should have been stitched

If not, I guess we will be at an impasse unless someone wrote down somewhere 'should have been stitched' or you tell me how you differentiate a minor head wound from a more serious one.

TheL8Elvis · 20th April 2012, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Interesting. Like I said, the DA kept trying to discuss Zimmerman possibly changing his story during several interviews, but the judge kept disallowing it. I wonder if this is a regular thing with him.

I wouldn't be surprised if the DA regularly tries to keep going down a line of questioning after a judge disallows it.

sgtbaker · 20th April 2012, 11:10 AM

Of course I was out all day and missed the hearing. That figures. Maybe I missed someone else commenting on it but does nobody else think it's weird that three minutes after shooting a teenager, he's got a clear enough mind to think, hey, take a picture of my injuries, I might need that. I have no reason to think they are faked or enhanced, AFAIK, they are legit. It's just odd that, given the severity of the situation, his mind would go to that.

brenn · 20th April 2012, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by KatieG

You can drop the 'tude. But here's your answer. My read on your statement is you think TM threw the first punch since he was the one being followed.

That is the undisputed evidence I have seen from many different media sources. Are you aware of any statement by witness to the contrary or any statement by the police that the physical evidence is contrary? I don't believe that even the girlfriend who heard it has claimed that Zimmerman threw the first punch. Where there is only 1 witness who claims to have seen the first punch, and no evidence to the contrary, the 1 witness, Zimmerman, is what you've got.

Cylinder · 20th April 2012, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Based on my uneducated understanding, the courts should only take into account flight risk to determine bond and monitoring, but I'm guessing that this may help assuage public outrage which has taken on a life of its own.

I mean, I didn't expect it to be anywhere near that low. I figures he would be looking at $500K or so. $150K is cheap for a murder charge.

brenn · 20th April 2012, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by sgtbaker

Of course I was out all day and missed the hearing. That figures. Maybe I missed someone else commenting on it but does nobody else think it's weird that three minutes after shooting a teenager, he's got a clear enough mind to think, hey, take a picture of my injuries, I might need that. I have no reason to think they are faked or enhanced, AFAIK, they are legit. It's just odd that, given the severity of the situation, his mind would go to that.

As part of my job, I've reviewed audio, video, witness statements, etc., from many cases where people have shot and killed others. While they are usually police officers, I have seen no evidence of not being able to discuss the events or not being clear headed. In fact, perfectly calm calls for an ambulance and starting to document the evidence are perfectly normal reactions, starting within minutes. Even among civilians, I've seen a guy involved in a large gun battle and seriously (mortally) wounded, why sat down and lit a cigartte and opened a beer and was able to clearly discuss it while waiting for an ambulance.

johnny karate · 20th April 2012, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Like the video, the photo, in my opinion, is not inconsistent with his claims.
I don't have the medical ability to confirm or deny the claims.

Are you willing to look at the photo and proclaim that in your (medical) opinion the photo confirms:
1) it wasn't caused the way it was claimed by GZ
2) it's impossible someone looked at it the next day and opined it should have been stitched

If not, I guess we will be at an impasse unless someone wrote down somewhere 'should have been stitched' or you tell me how you differentiate a minor head wound from a more serious one.

Well, obviously my opinion is that of a layperson, and I would entirely defer to anyone with actual medical knowledge.

But stitches? No, I'm still not seeing that. Scalp wounds bleed a lot, and relatively speaking, there isn't that much blood in those photos. The actual wounds also look very small. And of course, my sticking point remains the lack of a bandage in the surveillance video. I still don't see how a wound that needs stitches wouldn't necessitate at least a band-aid if no stitches are administered. That simply doesn't not make any sense.

20th April 2012, 07:53 AM	#7001
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,932	Gilbreath claims that the physical evidence is inconsistent with the altercation having moved from the sidewalk to another area.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

20th April 2012, 07:56 AM	#7002
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,919	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis Then I'll ask you the same thing I have yet to hear a reasonable answer for. Why couldn't TM make it home in the time GZ was on the phone to 911, especially after he said he didn't know where TM was. At that point, TM had to likely travel 250 feet to be safe at home to get away. The fact that he didn't doesn't make any sense to me. Have you seen a 17yo talking on the phone to their gf, especially if they don't want to talk in front of the family?
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

20th April 2012, 07:57 AM	#7003
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,919	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis We'll have to disagree, because standing out there seems far from reasonable to me. How many reasonable 17 year olds are there?
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

20th April 2012, 08:07 AM	#7005
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562	Originally Posted by Dancing David Have you seen a 17yo talking on the phone to their gf, especially if they don't want to talk in front of the family? I understand teenagers are strange beasts. And yes, I know what they are like on the phone, but his father and his fiance were not home, they had gone to dinner, and he knew that.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562

20th April 2012, 08:09 AM	#7006
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562	Originally Posted by Dancing David How many reasonable 17 year olds are there? I can only take that so far. Yes, teenagers do dumb and/or unreasonable things. Not calling 911. Attacking someone who follows them ?
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562

20th April 2012, 08:04 AM	#7004
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,921	So the judge kept sustaining objections, but the DA was trying to ask about Zimmerman changing his stories and when confronted by police, saying "I don't remember". Too bad they couldn't dig into that.

20th April 2012, 08:10 AM	#7007
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562	$150,000 bond, with monitoring, etc. ETA: GZ can reside out of state ETA: needs to be worked out with SA ETA:Judge seems like he anxious to get all the evidence into the hands of the media that they are requesting, after redacting addresses, etc. ETA: redacted police reports, not all evidence I guess
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562	Last edited by TheL8Elvis; 20th April 2012 at 08:22 AM.

20th April 2012, 08:10 AM	#7008
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,932	$150,000 bond. Wow.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

20th April 2012, 08:10 AM	#7009
Natural Born Skeptic Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,159	150K bail.

20th April 2012, 08:14 AM	#7010
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,921	So both sides want to keep witness statements sealed? Sounds like we won't get facts until there's a trial.

20th April 2012, 08:15 AM	#7011
KatieG Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: at the end of the Oregon Trail Posts: 1,395	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis $150,000 bond, with monitoring, etc. ETA: GZ can reside out of state ETA:Judge seems like he anxious to get all the evidence into the hands of the media that they are requesting, after redacting addresses, etc. The judge did not give him permission to go out state yet. The SA and defense need to work that out. Defense must provide SA with the plan, subject to SA approval.
	__________________ Three things cannot long be hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Don’t argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

20th April 2012, 08:16 AM	#7012
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,932	Originally Posted by Unabogie So both sides want to keep witness statements sealed? Sounds like we won't get facts until there's a trial. The redacted police files will be released, though - so there should be some new information.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

20th April 2012, 08:19 AM	#7013
Natural Born Skeptic Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,159	The legal commentator on the station I am listening to says the state made a huge mistake by not just admitting he had a right to bond, because it allowed Omara to question the lead investigator who was not well prepared.

20th April 2012, 08:21 AM	#7014
bonzombiekitty Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 425	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis If you believe he was on the phone with the GF, then you might as well go with what she says, which was TM spoke to GZ first, it wasn't really out of the blue. Yeah, it wouldn't at all surprise me if that was indeed the case. I can easily see TM getting fed up with the person following him and saying "why are you following me?" Again, not the best thing to do, but not an unreasonable reaction. I agree that it's going to be hard to show who actually started the physical confrontation and exactly what went happened since the only other witness is dead. So we are going on a lot of speculation. I just think that given what we know about Z's state of mind at the time, I find it really unlikely that TM is the one who gets the blame for starting the physical confrontation. You got one kid walking home from the store, talking to his GF and a guy who is following someone who is, in his mind, a suspicious person and has expressed a complaint that those "****** always get away". I certainly find the idea of TM attacking Z from behind (as has been mentioned before, I forget if it was Z himself or his father who brought that up) implausible - if the GF is telling the truth, then the whole fight started right when the phone went dead. If I had to bet, I'd bet that TM realized Z was still following him, then he and Z had a verbal confrontation. Z, tired of those "****** always getting away", attempted to restrain TM until the cops showed up, TM fought back, Z started losing the fight and, in fear for his safety, shot TM. I don't think Z entered the situation intending to shoot TM, just that he was probably over confident and the situation got out of his control. In my mind, that's manslaughter not 2nd degree murder. I'm not on an actual jury, so I'm not saying Z is certainly guilty. Just that, in my view, he is most likely to be the one to blame. I think the state has reasonable grounds to bring charges against him, and Z should not be able to avoid trial based on SYG, and if he can avoid trial based on SYG, there's either something we're not being told or the SYG law is completely messed up.

20th April 2012, 08:23 AM	#7015
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562	Originally Posted by KatieG The judge did not give him permission to go out state yet. The SA and defense need to work that out. Defense must provide SA with the plan, subject to SA approval. Edited my post to try to be more accurate.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562

20th April 2012, 08:26 AM	#7016
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562	Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic The legal commentator on the station I am listening to says the state made a huge mistake by not just admitting he had a right to bond, because it allowed Omara to question the lead investigator who was not well prepared. He looked horribly unprepared on the stand, and seemed to make statements that really could help the defense.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562

20th April 2012, 08:34 AM	#7017
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by KatieG The judge did not give him permission to go out state yet. The SA and defense need to work that out. Defense must provide SA with the plan, subject to SA approval. Would you please answer my question?
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

20th April 2012, 08:40 AM	#7018
KatieG Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: at the end of the Oregon Trail Posts: 1,395	Originally Posted by crimresearch As a blanket statement, that is simply not true under the law, or common sense... you don't get to punch out anyone who follows you simply for following you, or even for asking you a question. You can drop the 'tude. But here's your answer. My read on your statement is you think TM threw the first punch since he was the one being followed.
	__________________ Three things cannot long be hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Don’t argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

20th April 2012, 08:56 AM	#7019
Natural Born Skeptic Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,159	Originally Posted by Mumbles I've said this before, but as much as people want to claim that tailing random people is perfectly acceptable behavior, it's not. It's threatening behavior, and if Zimmerman got within striking distance while doing so, then it was Martin who was defending himself by throwing the first punch - and I see no problem with him doing so. And the story where Zimmerman was just looking for a street sign, and somehow ended up being attacked in an open walkway between houses, is laughable. If that's Zimmerman's story, then he's lying. Originally Posted by crimresearch As a blanket statement, that is simply not true under the law, or common sense... you don't get to punch out anyone who follows you simply for following you, or even for asking you a question. Originally Posted by KatieG You can drop the 'tude. But here's your answer. My read on your statement is you think TM threw the first punch since he was the one being followed. He's perfectly capable of defending himself but if there's one thing that drives me nuts it's when people start purposely misrepresenting what someone else said. Your "read" is wrong, that should be clear if you bothered to read the statement he was responding to. He was simply making a dispassionate explanation of the law. And if that statement was not clear enough you have a hundred others from him to go off of.
	Last edited by Natural Born Skeptic; 20th April 2012 at 08:58 AM.

20th April 2012, 09:04 AM	#7020
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,955	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis $150,000 bond, with monitoring, etc. ETA: GZ can reside out of state ETA: needs to be worked out with SA ETA:Judge seems like he anxious to get all the evidence into the hands of the media that they are requesting, after redacting addresses, etc. ETA: redacted police reports, not all evidence I guess Originally Posted by Cylinder $150,000 bond. Wow. Based on my uneducated understanding, the courts should only take into account flight risk to determine bond and monitoring, but I'm guessing that this may help assuage public outrage which has taken on a life of its own.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

20th April 2012, 09:04 AM	#7021
KatieG Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: at the end of the Oregon Trail Posts: 1,395	Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic He's perfectly capable of defending himself but if there's one thing that drives me nuts it's when people start purposely misrepresenting what someone else said. Your "read" is wrong, that should be clear if you bothered to read the statement he was responding to. He was simply making a dispassionate explanation of the law. And if that statement was not clear enough you have a hundred others from him to go off of. I'm sorry, I didn't know I had to check with you before I was allowed to form an opinion.
	__________________ Three things cannot long be hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Don’t argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

20th April 2012, 09:21 AM	#7022
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,955	Zimmerman testifies and apologizes and states that he did not know if Martin was armed. http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t1#...-statement.cnn
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

20th April 2012, 09:23 AM	#7023
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,919	Originally Posted by Cylinder The redacted police files will be released, though - so there should be some new information. "He reached a much higher plane of creativity the following day when he blacked out everything in the letters but a, an and the." Catch 22
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

20th April 2012, 09:43 AM	#7024
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,921	I hope the state lets someone else try this case. That guy just wasn't ready to do his job.

20th April 2012, 09:49 AM	#7025
lane99 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: in MO Posts: 456	Is he lying? Quote: "I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit older than I was," Zimmerman said addressing Martin's family directly. But the transcript of Zimmerman's call to police has him describing Martin's age as "late teens". Zimmerman is what, 28? So why is Zimmerman now telling the boy's family he thought Martin was a bit older than him?

20th April 2012, 10:16 AM	#7026
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,492	Is there anywhere GZ will be safe when released?
	__________________ Are you IN? Join the IN crowd now!

20th April 2012, 10:21 AM	#7027
Noztradamus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,928	Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic Neither was TM . So I don't think TM had any reason to believe that he was being stalked by a crazy "admirer". In that situation I agree, it would be perfectly reasonable to not want the stalker to have the slightest idea where you live. Lurking near a recreation centre, scoping out teenage boys.
	__________________ The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.

20th April 2012, 10:23 AM	#7028
Lanzy Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 887	Wow, just read that even manslaughter can be 30 years. They double it here in FL if committed against a minor.
Lanzy Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 887

20th April 2012, 10:25 AM	#7029
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562	Originally Posted by lane99 But the transcript of Zimmerman's call to police has him describing Martin's age as "late teens". Zimmerman is what, 28? So why is Zimmerman now telling the boy's family he thought Martin was a bit older than him? "I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son," Zimmerman said while on the stand. "I did not know how old he was, I thought he was a little bit younger than I am, and I did not know if he was armed or not." That is a bit at odds with what he said on the call. I'm not sure how that is really going to cause a problem for him, though.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562

20th April 2012, 10:26 AM	#7030
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,921	Originally Posted by lane99 But the transcript of Zimmerman's call to police has him describing Martin's age as "late teens". Zimmerman is what, 28? So why is Zimmerman now telling the boy's family he thought Martin was a bit older than him? Interesting. Like I said, the DA kept trying to discuss Zimmerman possibly changing his story during several interviews, but the judge kept disallowing it. I wonder if this is a regular thing with him.

20th April 2012, 10:30 AM	#7031
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,889	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis Nothing. It's always possible. And if you think he's guilty, I can never escape the conjecture of 'well, of course a guilty person would act like X' My default position is to not automatically believe Zimmerman acted in self-defense just because he says so. He's a guy trying to beat a murder charge. Therefore, everything he says and does is suspect. And as more information about him and the inconsistencies in his story are revealed, it makes me disbelieve him all the more. That other people seem to just simply believe Zimmerman as their default position remains quite puzzling to me. Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis This, in my opinion, is your confirmation bias at work. Of course GZ, being guilty, was already plotting to go to the hospital the next day so he could find a willing accomplice to lie abou this injuries after they were already documented by the EMTs. It's not a theory I'm necessarily condoning, but merely presented as counter to yours regarding the EMTs not taking Zimmerman to the hospital. Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis I can't even imagine his state of mind after just shooting and killing someone. Not going to the hospital doesn't really have to make sense to me for it to be a plausible scenario, honestly. So Zimmerman behaving irrationally in an innocuous manner is plausible, but him behaving irrationally in a perhaps nefarious manner isn't? Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis Well, it's too bad you didn't answer that question better last night. Why? What do you suppose that photo shows that invalidates my position? Originally Posted by Mumbles So, basically, minor injury. Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis Well, that didn't take long. So I take it you think the photo indicates severe injuries? What specifically makes you think that?
	__________________ Lost your faith in humanity? Click here to have it restored. Or here.

20th April 2012, 10:40 AM	#7032
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,889	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis "I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son," Zimmerman said while on the stand. "I did not know how old he was, I thought he was a little bit younger than I am, and I did not know if he was armed or not." That is a bit at odds with what he said on the call. I'm not sure how that is really going to cause a problem for him, though. It's an inconsistency. Perhaps a minor one, but any inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story don't reflect well on him. The other thing he said that puzzles me is this: Quote: ... I did not know if he was armed or not. At what point in time is he talking about? When he first saw Martin? When he got out of his car to follow him? Or when he shot and killed him? Context would make me think it's the third option, but Zimmerman told the police he thought Martin was going for his gun before he shot him. Seems like a strange thing for him to say.
	__________________ Lost your faith in humanity? Click here to have it restored. Or here.

20th April 2012, 10:49 AM	#7033
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,889	Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic When the video of GZ at the police station came out that ABC broke, it was 9-5 media coverage that the video showed no evidence of wounds. That's because it didn't. As it turns out, those "enhanced" images are not consistent with his actual wounds. Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic But now that we have a picture taken 3 minutes after the event the story is nowhere to be found in the headlines, other than on ABC that broke the story. It'll be interesting to see if that changes as the day proceeds. What headline to you expect to see? "Wounds that are virtually invisible on the surveillance video can now be seen in new photo"? We probably won't see that headline. We also probably won't see a headline indicating that the vertical "gash" from the enhance stills wasn't an accurate portrayal of Zimmerman's injuries, either. Oh well.
	__________________ Lost your faith in humanity? Click here to have it restored. Or here.

20th April 2012, 10:55 AM	#7034
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562	Originally Posted by johnny karate That other people seem to just simply believe Zimmerman as their default position remains quite puzzling to me. I'm an enigma. Originally Posted by johnny karate It's not a theory I'm necessarily condoning, but merely presented as counter to yours regarding the EMTs not taking Zimmerman to the hospital. So Zimmerman behaving irrationally in an innocuous manner is plausible, but him behaving irrationally in a perhaps nefarious manner isn't? It's possible. I guess plausible depends on how we define it. I don't believe it's what happened, and haven't seen any evidence that it's what happened. So, is it reasonable to believe that is what happened with no evidence to support that ? No. Originally Posted by johnny karate Why? What do you suppose that photo shows that invalidates my position? So I take it you think the photo indicates severe injuries? What specifically makes you think that? Like the video, the photo, in my opinion, is not inconsistent with his claims. I don't have the medical ability to confirm or deny the claims. Are you willing to look at the photo and proclaim that in your (medical) opinion the photo confirms: 1) it wasn't caused the way it was claimed by GZ 2) it's impossible someone looked at it the next day and opined it should have been stitched If not, I guess we will be at an impasse unless someone wrote down somewhere 'should have been stitched' or you tell me how you differentiate a minor head wound from a more serious one.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562	Last edited by TheL8Elvis; 20th April 2012 at 10:57 AM. Reason: typo

20th April 2012, 10:59 AM	#7035
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562	Originally Posted by Unabogie Interesting. Like I said, the DA kept trying to discuss Zimmerman possibly changing his story during several interviews, but the judge kept disallowing it. I wonder if this is a regular thing with him. I wouldn't be surprised if the DA regularly tries to keep going down a line of questioning after a judge disallows it.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,562	Last edited by TheL8Elvis; 20th April 2012 at 11:00 AM. Reason: eta: :-)