Wear Orange, Lose Job - Page 3

crimresearch · 20th March 2012, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by DavidByron

So ... the... money you pay.... it goes.... up?

Are you American too?

What exactly are you asking?

The majority of the American population is female. The majority is in the lower income brackets. 1/3 is non-white. 15% are non-religious.

We can have adult consensual sex with whomever we like. Our porn industry makes billions for men and women.

Clearly one of these attributes is bothering you.

3point14 · 20th March 2012, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

What exactly are you asking?

The majority of the American population is female. The majority is in the lower income brackets. 1/3 is non-white. 15% are non-religious.

We can have adult consensual sex with whomever we like. Our porn industry makes billions for men and women.

Clearly one of these attributes is bothering you.

no, you've lost me there. The exchange was making perfect sense up until this post of yours.

crimresearch · 20th March 2012, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Our employment rights are indeed enshrined in law - otherwise how would those rights be defended or even defined?

ETA: I may have miss read your comment/question - was you just referring to the actual period of notice? If so then yes that is a contractual manner and not following that would be a "unfair dismissal".

That certainly explains a lot about some observations of customer service over there. I thought 'Go make it your ****in self' was just their way of joking around.

DavidByron · 20th March 2012, 10:39 AM

Seriously though -- all this insanity / Stockholm syndrome for capitalism that goes on in the USA. Does that get covered by the word "woo" or not? There's a thread in some other folder asking people how woo has effected their lives and my immediate thought was all the political manipulation of the masses that leads to these attacks on basic civil rights. That's probably the biggest example of bad thinking based on irrational group think leading to bad outcomes.

Is it "woo" when Americans don't see anything much wrong with a health care system that is so messed up and evil it's impossible to parody? Is it "woo" when an American opines in all seriousness that having no worker rights is good for workers? I don't mean in a "that would depend on your politics" sense but just how broad a meaning does it have?

Because it looked like all the examples people were giving were of rather silly forms of bad thinking like psychics and UFOs and stuff. Stuff that isn't going to really make any difference to people's lives.

crimresearch · 20th March 2012, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

no, you've lost me there. The exchange was making perfect sense up until this post of yours.

Fine, then please explain what 'you must be American', or black, or gay, or atheist, or anything else has to do with the topic?

I'm missing the part where that addresses the argument instead of the arguer.

DavidByron · 20th March 2012, 10:45 AM

OK so that weird post was addressed to me? I was referring to this comment I made:

Quote:

And yet if you were to ask the average American they'd probably boast that they had more and better free speech rights than Europeans. Even most educated Americans would likely think the same.

Got it now?

3point14 · 20th March 2012, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Fine, then please explain what 'you must be American', or black, or gay, or atheist, or anything else has to do with the topic?

I'm missing the part where that addresses the argument instead of the arguer.

The 'you must be american' I took as a comment on your attitude to health care (which seems to bea uniquely american one in the wester world)

You stated that the cost of the insurance doesnt' go up when it shifts over to cobra.

Then Mr Byron pointed out, somewhat clumsily, perhaps, that the cost to the insured goes up.

Then the 'you must be american' comment came up, which, I admit, was fairly confusing and could be viewed as insulting, but it made sense to me in the context of UHC and (some) americans attitude to it.

ponderingturtle · 20th March 2012, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by DavidByron

What are taking issue with? Yes, if you're a millionaire and can pay the vast health care insurance premiums without a job and while you're too sick to get a new job, the you're fine.

COBRA is more of a trap for (healthy) unemployed people as it's been related to me. Usually you have the money to either pay the premiums or the co-pay but not both. You're better off not using COBRA. It seems more like a scam. But then insurance in the USA as a whole seems like a scam.

Ah but it let's you continue insurance and so they don't have the out of preexisting conditions.

Darat · 20th March 2012, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

That certainly explains a lot about some observations of customer service over there. I thought 'Go make it your ****in self' was just their way of joking around.

That would be gross misconduct which would mean an employee could be immediately fired so nope.

crimresearch · 20th March 2012, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

The 'you must be american' I took as a comment on your attitude to health care (which seems to bea uniquely american one in the wester world)

You stated that the cost of the insurance doesnt' go up when it shifts over to cobra.

Then Mr Byron pointed out, somewhat clumsily, perhaps, that the cost to the insured goes up.

Then the 'you must be american' comment came up, which, I admit, was fairly confusing and could be viewed as insulting, but it made sense to me in the context of UHC and (some) americans attitude to it.

I haven't said a word about the cost of health care, I posted that 'freedom' in America in the context of going to jail for being gay, or being black, or having your books censored is not 'less' here than the places i mentioned.

Perhaps we all look alike to some people?

cwalner · 20th March 2012, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

From the link I posted above:
ETA: Information on dismissal here: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/englan...nd_e/dismissal.

Originally Posted by Darat

Our employment rights are indeed enshrined in law - otherwise how would those rights be defended or even defined?

ETA: I may have miss read your comment/question - was you just referring to the actual period of notice? If so then yes that is a contractual manner and not following that would be a "unfair dismissal".

I think both of you are misunderstanding. It was the second sentence of Professor Yaffle's original comment on this that has some of us USAians confused.

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

In the UK for anything other than gross misconduct you are entitled to a notice period. You also have to give notice if you leave a job.

Can employees actually be/have been successfully sued for leaving a job without giving notice in the UK?

Professor Yaffle · 20th March 2012, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by cwalner

Can employees actually be/have been successfully sued for leaving a job without giving notice in the UK?

They can take you to the small claims court, but in practice they would probably not bother. But there is the risk that it will affect your reference.

Also, your outstanding annual leave can be taken as part of the notice. And I've found that most reasonable employers will waive some or all of the notice period if you are helpful in preparing for handover etc.

http://www.thesite.org/workandstudy/...g/givingnotice

Spindrift · 20th March 2012, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by DavidByron

You ever seen the movie "A Clockwork Orange"?

No. That was set in England wasn't it?

Originally Posted by DavidByron

I didn't know that after you get fired for wearing orange or for having a Democratic bumper sticker or for being sick, that your premiums actually go UP. Wow. How amazingly reasonable and fair America.

Who said the premiums go up?

Originally Posted by DavidByron

You just couldn't parody how messed up and evil the US system is.

Maybe you couldn't, but you should see Sicko then.

Originally Posted by DavidByron

Look, the whole point of insurance is to insure. The whole point is to protect against the possibility of becoming sick. What's the point of health "insurance" that disappears when you get sick? And it's actually legal to do this? To hike someone's premiums because they lost their job and are sick? And so not have to pay for any health care for them?

No, that is not how health care works in other places.

So you said insurance when you meant health care. They are two separate things.

The point of health insurance is not to protect against the possibility of becoming sick. It's to protect against the possibility of not being able to pay for care when one does get sick or injured.

Insurance is a hedge based on risk. The higher the risk the more you pay. If you live in a flood zone, you're going to pay a lot more for flood insurance than someone who doesn't.

BTW: I and many Americans agree that our health care system is screwed up. You're not really telling us anything we don't already know. Changes are happening, more slowly than I'd like, but they are happening.

Darat · 20th March 2012, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by cwalner

...snip...

Can employees actually be/have been successfully sued for leaving a job without giving notice in the UK?

If that's their contract then yes. However usually as an employer you'd just shrug your shoulders and usually you'd not have to pay them any further contracted amounts (you would of course still have to pay them for the work they've already done). It's pretty much a matter of civil contract.

3point14 · 20th March 2012, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

I haven't said a word about the cost of health care, I posted that 'freedom' in America in the context of going to jail for being gay, or being black, or having your books censored is not 'less' here than the places i mentioned.

Perhaps we all look alike to some people?

No, that was someone else who made that comment, my apologies. Clearly you do all look alike to some people. Although, to be fair, that's a little melodramatic on your part.

crimresearch · 20th March 2012, 11:08 AM

Well that is indeed quite different from the USA

2 weeks notice used to be 'customary', as did severance from the employer.

Now, all bets are pretty much off, as some employers have taken to firing people on the spot for giving notice, while others want new hires to start immediately.

jhunter1163 · 20th March 2012, 11:10 AM

Connecticut is an "at-will" state, meaning that your employer can fire you at any time for any reason, or for no reason. Of course, it also means that you can stand up at your desk and say loudly "Take this job and SHOVE it!" and walk out, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Why you would do that, I don't know.. but you COULD.

3point14 · 20th March 2012, 11:11 AM

This has brought up something else.

CAUTION - Gross generalisation coming up..

It seems that usians are much less willing to give up privacies and freedoms to their government that yropeans are.

It seems that usians are much more willing to give up privacies and freedoms to their employer than yropeans are.

Of course, as a rule, one should not trust generalisations...

crimresearch · 20th March 2012, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by jhunter1163

Connecticut is an "at-will" state, meaning that your employer can fire you at any time for any reason, or for no reason. Of course, it also means that you can stand up at your desk and say loudly "Take this job and SHOVE it!" and walk out, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Why you would do that, I don't know.. but you COULD.

Trust me, it feels good... for a while.

WildCat · 20th March 2012, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

Also, your outstanding annual leave can be taken as part of the notice. And I've found that most reasonable employers will waive some or all of the notice period if you are helpful in preparing for handover etc.

In the USA standard practice by employers upon an employee giving notice is you are immediately fired and told to take your personal belongings and escorted out by a security guard.

pgwenthold · 20th March 2012, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

They are generally used to try to make it difficult for you to leave your job and immediately go to work for a competitor - if you are let go by the company they usually have no standing.

Which makes sense. If your services were so bad that your employer needed to get rid of you, then why should they have a problem with you working for a competitor?

Professor Yaffle · 20th March 2012, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

In the USA standard practice by employers upon an employee giving notice is you are immediately fired and told to take your personal belongings and escorted out by a security guard.

You'd have a very strong case for unfair dismissal if that happened here.

Spindrift · 20th March 2012, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by DavidByron

Seriously though -- all this insanity / Stockholm syndrome for capitalism that goes on in the USA. Does that get covered by the word "woo" or not? There's a thread in some other folder asking people how woo has effected their lives and my immediate thought was all the political manipulation of the masses that leads to these attacks on basic civil rights. That's probably the biggest example of bad thinking based on irrational group think leading to bad outcomes.

Is it "woo" when Americans don't see anything much wrong with a health care system that is so messed up and evil it's impossible to parody?

Lot of Americans see much wrong.

Originally Posted by DavidByron

Is it "woo" when an American opines in all seriousness that having no worker rights is good for workers?

Who opined that?

Originally Posted by DavidByron

I don't mean in a "that would depend on your politics" sense but just how broad a meaning does it have?

Because it looked like all the examples people were giving were of rather silly forms of bad thinking like psychics and UFOs and stuff. Stuff that isn't going to really make any difference to people's lives.

'Bad thinking'? Does that mean thinking you disagree with?

Is it woo when someone comes here spouting misinformation about America (or any other country) that they believe without critical thinking?

Spindrift · 20th March 2012, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

In the USA standard practice by employers upon an employee giving notice is you are immediately fired and told to take your personal belongings and escorted out by a security guard.

That has not been my experience. Only once did that happen to me. And I've given notice on at least 7 occasions in 30 years.

So I wouldn't say it's standard practice, though it is not unusual

Jack by the hedge · 20th March 2012, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by jhunter1163

...Of course, it also means that you can stand up at your desk and say loudly "Take this job and SHOVE it!" and walk out, and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Whenever I saw that happen in movies (inevitably at the moment which drops the boss into maximum trouble) I always assumed it was unrealistic. Maybe I was wrong. In a land as famously litigious as the US I imagined any damage to the company's business caused by the character suddenly walking off the job would be guaranteed to get them sued.

crimresearch · 20th March 2012, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

This has brought up something else.

CAUTION - Gross generalisation coming up..

It seems that usians are much less willing to give up privacies and freedoms to their government that yropeans are.

It seems that usians are much more willing to give up privacies and freedoms to their employer than yropeans are.

Of course, as a rule, one should not trust generalisations...

I would say that is a fair assessment, although 'resigned' is probably more apt than 'willing' for the latter.

I'm not sure that people are going to stay resigned though... I am sure thatmany employers will contine to push for what they see as profitable advantages.

Mark6 · 20th March 2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

In the USA standard practice by employers upon an employee giving notice is you are immediately fired and told to take your personal belongings and escorted out by a security guard.

That never happened to me. And I gave a lot of two-week notices in my career.

In fact, I do not know anyone to whom this happened.

crimresearch · 20th March 2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

That has not been my experience. Only once did that happen to me. And I've given notice on at least 7 occasions in 30 years.

So I wouldn't say it's standard practice, though it is not unusual

It is increasingly seen by HR as a protection against a potentially disgruntled soon-to-be-former employee being allowed 2 weeks of access to company property and information.

Spindrift · 20th March 2012, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by jhunter1163

Connecticut is an "at-will" state, meaning that your employer can fire you at any time for any reason, or for no reason. Of course, it also means that you can stand up at your desk and say loudly "Take this job and SHOVE it!" and walk out, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Why you would do that, I don't know.. but you COULD.

They can fire your for any reason except a bad reason (i.e. discrimination of all sorts from race to age to sex). Which is why many will play the "The position has been eliminated" game, when they want to get rid of someone. They will then hire someone else for basically the same job, but will call it something different and slightly change the duties.

Jack by the hedge · 20th March 2012, 11:26 AM

In the UK, even though you may be entitled to a substantial period of notice of dismissal, it's not uncommon for people to be escorted off the premises as soon as they've been told and sent on paid 'gardening leave' for the notice period. That tends to happen in situations where it's felt a resentful employee could do serious damage to the company during their notice period.

crimresearch · 20th March 2012, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Whenever I saw that happen in movies (inevitably at the moment which drops the boss into maximum trouble) I always assumed it was unrealistic. Maybe I was wrong. In a land as famously litigious as the US I imagined any damage to the company's business caused by the character suddenly walking off the job would be guaranteed to get them sued.

In the case of a key employee, or proof of some sabotage or extreme negligence, maybe.

But the 13th Amendment pretty much covers the right to walk away at any time.

If the employer isn't ready to pick up the slack on a moment's notice, then what do they do when an employee drops dead in the middle of an important project? Sue their family?

Professor Yaffle · 20th March 2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

In the UK, even though you may be entitled to a substantial period of notice of dismissal, it's not uncommon for people to be escorted off the premises as soon as they've been told and sent on paid 'gardening leave' for the notice period. That tends to happen in situations where it's felt a resentful employee could do serious damage to the company during their notice period.

I've highlighted the relevant word.

Spindrift · 20th March 2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

It is increasingly seen by HR as a protection against a potentially disgruntled soon-to-be-former employee being allowed 2 weeks of access to company property and information.

Often the person is not 'fired' on the spot. They are usually paid for the two weeks and are told not to show up for work. So technically they are still employed, but they are denied access to the job to avoid a potentially disgruntled worker infecting others.

On the other hand, when I left one job, they tried to get me to stay longer (I didn't) and then they paid me good money to do part time work for almost two years until they finally sunset the product I was working on.

DavidByron · 20th March 2012, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

It seems that usians are much less willing to give up privacies and freedoms to their government that yropeans are.

Well both corporate parties now say the US president can quite literally have any US citizen picked up off the street held indefinitely without charges or just executed with no legal process, no judge, no evidence, no representation, no notification, no nothing.

So I'd say they were pretty happy giving up freedoms to the government. Especially since 9-11. The whole "dead" thing makes privacy moot but apparently the NSA monitors everyone's calls and email in the US now. Again this is both parties endorsing this and very few Americans have any issue with it.

It's more that if it is a corporation Americans don't even consider that they might even be an issue of rights. That's how they can believe being fired for having a Democratic party sticker is NOT a free speech issue. Instead they see it as a worker rights issue and they believe workers are better off with no rights because the government and big corporations say so. After all you should just go and work somewhere else right? And yes, they have massive unemployment.

pgwenthold · 20th March 2012, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by jhunter1163

Connecticut is an "at-will" state, meaning that your employer can fire you at any time for any reason, or for no reason. Of course, it also means that you can stand up at your desk and say loudly "Take this job and SHOVE it!" and walk out, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Why you would do that, I don't know.. but you COULD.

There is a problem with this, though.

If you stand up on your desk and say shove it and walk out, there's nothing an employer could about it, no. But what COULD they do about it? Force you to work? No, that doesn't work. They could force you to come, but they can't force you to do anything.

They could stop paying you, but that kind of goes part and parcel with quitting so it's not really a penalty.

The only thing imaginable is that you would have to pay a severance fee, but only then if your contract specifies it, but that is rare. So I don't really see all that much power in at-will termination from the employee's side. The two-weeks notice has always been basically a courtesy move.

I guess they could sue, but for what? Lost ... revenue? Of course, the easiest way to overcome that is to just give two weeks notice and then show up for work and screw around. You can't be sued for not trying at your job.

On the employer's side, however, it is huge, because if I fire you now instead of two weeks from now, I don't have to pay you. And I don't have you working as a useless lame duck employee ("Stop jacking off and get to work!" "Why? What are you going to do, fire me?").

Toke · 20th March 2012, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

In the USA standard practice by employers upon an employee giving notice is you are immediately fired and told to take your personal belongings and escorted out by a security guard.

Strange, the paid "gardening leave" would be the alternative here if your employer did not want you around.

I have been fired once with 3 months notice. As the reason were no vessel to send me to it was full pay while staying home.

At a temp job I notified my employer that I had found a different employer offering a permanent position, there were no hard feelings.

The "at will" looks like solely a benefit for employers, but apparently dressed up to appeal to Americans.

3point14 · 20th March 2012, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Toke

Strange, the paid "gardening leave" would be the alternative here if your employer did not want you around.

I have been fired once with 3 months notice. As the reason were no vessel to send me to it was full pay while staying home.

At a temp job I notified my employer that I had found a different employer offering a permanent position, there were no hard feelings.

The "at will" looks like solely a benefit for employers, but apparently dressed up to appeal to Americans.

It occurs to me that if you can spin something in terms of 'freedom', then you'll have a fair shot of keeping 51% of US citizens onboard, regardless of the actual issue.

paiute · 20th March 2012, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

How does anyone plan for anything?

Plan? Jesus will provide.

Cleon · 20th March 2012, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

In the USA standard practice by employers upon an employee giving notice is you are immediately fired and told to take your personal belongings and escorted out by a security guard.

Where have you worked? I've handed in my two-week notice at a number of positions, and never had that happen to me. A couple of times at my previous job, I saw people give their notice and had management suggest that they leave immediately; they still got paid for the two weeks, they just weren't needed at the office. This was mostly an "FU" by the company, but security wasn't involved and nobody ever took it badly (hey, it was a free paid vacation).

I actually can't imagine a company acting in such a way; it would encourage employees to not give notice before quitting. "Cutting off your nose to spite your face" is generally not good business practice.

The Central Scrutinizer · 20th March 2012, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Well one can be fired for gross misconduct, which they probably would be in the case you describe.

However

I think I just have a higher opinion of the human race than you do. And less trust of large corporations.

I just don't think that there are so many of the lazy, freeloading type of employee that you're so very scared of.

I think there are a lot of large, multinational corporations who would take gross advantage of a lack of regulation to shaft staff.

I'm prepared to accomodate the former in order to avoid the latter.

Short answer: Yes.

I'm not "very scared" of freeloading employees, although I have encountered a few of them, always on State government contracts, where it's very hard to get rid of them.

I've yet to encounter the "large, multinational corporation" out to "shaft staff" that you seem to be so very scared of.

20th March 2012, 10:35 AM	#81
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by DavidByron So ... the... money you pay.... it goes.... up? Are you American too? What exactly are you asking? The majority of the American population is female. The majority is in the lower income brackets. 1/3 is non-white. 15% are non-religious. We can have adult consensual sex with whomever we like. Our porn industry makes billions for men and women. Clearly one of these attributes is bothering you.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

20th March 2012, 10:38 AM	#82
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London ish Posts: 3,594	Originally Posted by crimresearch What exactly are you asking? The majority of the American population is female. The majority is in the lower income brackets. 1/3 is non-white. 15% are non-religious. We can have adult consensual sex with whomever we like. Our porn industry makes billions for men and women. Clearly one of these attributes is bothering you. no, you've lost me there. The exchange was making perfect sense up until this post of yours.
	__________________ Cull the delusional.

20th March 2012, 10:39 AM	#83
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Darat Our employment rights are indeed enshrined in law - otherwise how would those rights be defended or even defined? ETA: I may have miss read your comment/question - was you just referring to the actual period of notice? If so then yes that is a contractual manner and not following that would be a "unfair dismissal". That certainly explains a lot about some observations of customer service over there. I thought 'Go make it your ****in self' was just their way of joking around.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

20th March 2012, 10:39 AM	#84
DavidByron Thinker Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 132	Seriously though -- all this insanity / Stockholm syndrome for capitalism that goes on in the USA. Does that get covered by the word "woo" or not? There's a thread in some other folder asking people how woo has effected their lives and my immediate thought was all the political manipulation of the masses that leads to these attacks on basic civil rights. That's probably the biggest example of bad thinking based on irrational group think leading to bad outcomes. Is it "woo" when Americans don't see anything much wrong with a health care system that is so messed up and evil it's impossible to parody? Is it "woo" when an American opines in all seriousness that having no worker rights is good for workers? I don't mean in a "that would depend on your politics" sense but just how broad a meaning does it have? Because it looked like all the examples people were giving were of rather silly forms of bad thinking like psychics and UFOs and stuff. Stuff that isn't going to really make any difference to people's lives.
DavidByron Thinker Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 132

20th March 2012, 10:42 AM	#85
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by 3point14 no, you've lost me there. The exchange was making perfect sense up until this post of yours. Fine, then please explain what 'you must be American', or black, or gay, or atheist, or anything else has to do with the topic? I'm missing the part where that addresses the argument instead of the arguer.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

20th March 2012, 10:45 AM	#86
DavidByron Thinker Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 132	OK so that weird post was addressed to me? I was referring to this comment I made: Quote: And yet if you were to ask the average American they'd probably boast that they had more and better free speech rights than Europeans. Even most educated Americans would likely think the same. Got it now?
DavidByron Thinker Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 132

20th March 2012, 10:46 AM	#87
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London ish Posts: 3,594	Originally Posted by crimresearch Fine, then please explain what 'you must be American', or black, or gay, or atheist, or anything else has to do with the topic? I'm missing the part where that addresses the argument instead of the arguer. The 'you must be american' I took as a comment on your attitude to health care (which seems to bea uniquely american one in the wester world) You stated that the cost of the insurance doesnt' go up when it shifts over to cobra. Then Mr Byron pointed out, somewhat clumsily, perhaps, that the cost to the insured goes up. Then the 'you must be american' comment came up, which, I admit, was fairly confusing and could be viewed as insulting, but it made sense to me in the context of UHC and (some) americans attitude to it.
	__________________ Cull the delusional.

20th March 2012, 10:47 AM	#88
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,417	Originally Posted by DavidByron What are taking issue with? Yes, if you're a millionaire and can pay the vast health care insurance premiums without a job and while you're too sick to get a new job, the you're fine. COBRA is more of a trap for (healthy) unemployed people as it's been related to me. Usually you have the money to either pay the premiums or the co-pay but not both. You're better off not using COBRA. It seems more like a scam. But then insurance in the USA as a whole seems like a scam. Ah but it let's you continue insurance and so they don't have the out of preexisting conditions.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

20th March 2012, 10:47 AM	#89
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,741	Originally Posted by crimresearch That certainly explains a lot about some observations of customer service over there. I thought 'Go make it your ****in self' was just their way of joking around. That would be gross misconduct which would mean an employee could be immediately fired so nope.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

20th March 2012, 10:55 AM	#90
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by 3point14 The 'you must be american' I took as a comment on your attitude to health care (which seems to bea uniquely american one in the wester world) You stated that the cost of the insurance doesnt' go up when it shifts over to cobra. Then Mr Byron pointed out, somewhat clumsily, perhaps, that the cost to the insured goes up. Then the 'you must be american' comment came up, which, I admit, was fairly confusing and could be viewed as insulting, but it made sense to me in the context of UHC and (some) americans attitude to it. I haven't said a word about the cost of health care, I posted that 'freedom' in America in the context of going to jail for being gay, or being black, or having your books censored is not 'less' here than the places i mentioned. Perhaps we all look alike to some people?
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20th March 2012, 10:56 AM	#91
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,693	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle From the link I posted above: ETA: Information on dismissal here: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/englan...nd_e/dismissal. Originally Posted by Darat Our employment rights are indeed enshrined in law - otherwise how would those rights be defended or even defined? ETA: I may have miss read your comment/question - was you just referring to the actual period of notice? If so then yes that is a contractual manner and not following that would be a "unfair dismissal". I think both of you are misunderstanding. It was the second sentence of Professor Yaffle's original comment on this that has some of us USAians confused. Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle In the UK for anything other than gross misconduct you are entitled to a notice period. You also have to give notice if you leave a job. Can employees actually be/have been successfully sued for leaving a job without giving notice in the UK?
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

20th March 2012, 11:03 AM	#92
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,329	Originally Posted by cwalner Can employees actually be/have been successfully sued for leaving a job without giving notice in the UK? They can take you to the small claims court, but in practice they would probably not bother. But there is the risk that it will affect your reference. Also, your outstanding annual leave can be taken as part of the notice. And I've found that most reasonable employers will waive some or all of the notice period if you are helpful in preparing for handover etc. http://www.thesite.org/workandstudy/...g/givingnotice
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat Last edited by Professor Yaffle; 20th March 2012 at 11:07 AM.

20th March 2012, 11:03 AM	#93
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,445	Originally Posted by DavidByron You ever seen the movie "A Clockwork Orange"? No. That was set in England wasn't it? Originally Posted by DavidByron I didn't know that after you get fired for wearing orange or for having a Democratic bumper sticker or for being sick, that your premiums actually go UP. Wow. How amazingly reasonable and fair America. Who said the premiums go up? Originally Posted by DavidByron You just couldn't parody how messed up and evil the US system is. Maybe you couldn't, but you should see Sicko then. Originally Posted by DavidByron Look, the whole point of insurance is to insure. The whole point is to protect against the possibility of becoming sick. What's the point of health "insurance" that disappears when you get sick? And it's actually legal to do this? To hike someone's premiums because they lost their job and are sick? And so not have to pay for any health care for them? No, that is not how health care works in other places. So you said insurance when you meant health care. They are two separate things. The point of health insurance is not to protect against the possibility of becoming sick. It's to protect against the possibility of not being able to pay for care when one does get sick or injured. Insurance is a hedge based on risk. The higher the risk the more you pay. If you live in a flood zone, you're going to pay a lot more for flood insurance than someone who doesn't. BTW: I and many Americans agree that our health care system is screwed up. You're not really telling us anything we don't already know. Changes are happening, more slowly than I'd like, but they are happening.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Last edited by Spindrift; 20th March 2012 at 11:09 AM.

20th March 2012, 11:04 AM	#94
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,741	Originally Posted by cwalner ...snip... Can employees actually be/have been successfully sued for leaving a job without giving notice in the UK? If that's their contract then yes. However usually as an employer you'd just shrug your shoulders and usually you'd not have to pay them any further contracted amounts (you would of course still have to pay them for the work they've already done). It's pretty much a matter of civil contract.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

20th March 2012, 11:07 AM	#95
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London ish Posts: 3,594	Originally Posted by crimresearch I haven't said a word about the cost of health care, I posted that 'freedom' in America in the context of going to jail for being gay, or being black, or having your books censored is not 'less' here than the places i mentioned. Perhaps we all look alike to some people? No, that was someone else who made that comment, my apologies. Clearly you do all look alike to some people. Although, to be fair, that's a little melodramatic on your part.
	__________________ Cull the delusional.

20th March 2012, 11:08 AM	#96
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Well that is indeed quite different from the USA 2 weeks notice used to be 'customary', as did severance from the employer. Now, all bets are pretty much off, as some employers have taken to firing people on the spot for giving notice, while others want new hires to start immediately.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

20th March 2012, 11:10 AM	#97
jhunter1163 Beer-Swilling Semiliterate Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Room 118, Bohemian Grove Marriott Posts: 15,557	Connecticut is an "at-will" state, meaning that your employer can fire you at any time for any reason, or for no reason. Of course, it also means that you can stand up at your desk and say loudly "Take this job and SHOVE it!" and walk out, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Why you would do that, I don't know.. but you COULD.

20th March 2012, 11:11 AM	#98
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London ish Posts: 3,594	This has brought up something else. CAUTION - Gross generalisation coming up.. It seems that usians are much less willing to give up privacies and freedoms to their government that yropeans are. It seems that usians are much more willing to give up privacies and freedoms to their employer than yropeans are. Of course, as a rule, one should not trust generalisations...
	__________________ Cull the delusional.

20th March 2012, 11:12 AM	#99
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by jhunter1163 Connecticut is an "at-will" state, meaning that your employer can fire you at any time for any reason, or for no reason. Of course, it also means that you can stand up at your desk and say loudly "Take this job and SHOVE it!" and walk out, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Why you would do that, I don't know.. but you COULD. Trust me, it feels good... for a while.
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20th March 2012, 11:13 AM	#100
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,000	Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle Also, your outstanding annual leave can be taken as part of the notice. And I've found that most reasonable employers will waive some or all of the notice period if you are helpful in preparing for handover etc. In the USA standard practice by employers upon an employee giving notice is you are immediately fired and told to take your personal belongings and escorted out by a security guard.

20th March 2012, 11:13 AM	#101
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,066	Originally Posted by Darat They are generally used to try to make it difficult for you to leave your job and immediately go to work for a competitor - if you are let go by the company they usually have no standing. Which makes sense. If your services were so bad that your employer needed to get rid of you, then why should they have a problem with you working for a competitor?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

20th March 2012, 11:14 AM	#102
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,329	Originally Posted by WildCat In the USA standard practice by employers upon an employee giving notice is you are immediately fired and told to take your personal belongings and escorted out by a security guard. You'd have a very strong case for unfair dismissal if that happened here.
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat Last edited by Professor Yaffle; 20th March 2012 at 11:16 AM.

20th March 2012, 11:14 AM	#103
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,445	Originally Posted by DavidByron Seriously though -- all this insanity / Stockholm syndrome for capitalism that goes on in the USA. Does that get covered by the word "woo" or not? There's a thread in some other folder asking people how woo has effected their lives and my immediate thought was all the political manipulation of the masses that leads to these attacks on basic civil rights. That's probably the biggest example of bad thinking based on irrational group think leading to bad outcomes. Is it "woo" when Americans don't see anything much wrong with a health care system that is so messed up and evil it's impossible to parody? Lot of Americans see much wrong. Originally Posted by DavidByron Is it "woo" when an American opines in all seriousness that having no worker rights is good for workers? Who opined that? Originally Posted by DavidByron I don't mean in a "that would depend on your politics" sense but just how broad a meaning does it have? Because it looked like all the examples people were giving were of rather silly forms of bad thinking like psychics and UFOs and stuff. Stuff that isn't going to really make any difference to people's lives. 'Bad thinking'? Does that mean thinking you disagree with? Is it woo when someone comes here spouting misinformation about America (or any other country) that they believe without critical thinking?
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

20th March 2012, 11:18 AM	#104
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,445	Originally Posted by WildCat In the USA standard practice by employers upon an employee giving notice is you are immediately fired and told to take your personal belongings and escorted out by a security guard. That has not been my experience. Only once did that happen to me. And I've given notice on at least 7 occasions in 30 years. So I wouldn't say it's standard practice, though it is not unusual
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

20th March 2012, 11:18 AM	#105
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,410	Originally Posted by jhunter1163 ...Of course, it also means that you can stand up at your desk and say loudly "Take this job and SHOVE it!" and walk out, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Whenever I saw that happen in movies (inevitably at the moment which drops the boss into maximum trouble) I always assumed it was unrealistic. Maybe I was wrong. In a land as famously litigious as the US I imagined any damage to the company's business caused by the character suddenly walking off the job would be guaranteed to get them sued.

20th March 2012, 11:20 AM	#106
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by 3point14 This has brought up something else. CAUTION - Gross generalisation coming up.. It seems that usians are much less willing to give up privacies and freedoms to their government that yropeans are. It seems that usians are much more willing to give up privacies and freedoms to their employer than yropeans are. Of course, as a rule, one should not trust generalisations... I would say that is a fair assessment, although 'resigned' is probably more apt than 'willing' for the latter. I'm not sure that people are going to stay resigned though... I am sure thatmany employers will contine to push for what they see as profitable advantages.
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20th March 2012, 11:21 AM	#107
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,173	Originally Posted by WildCat In the USA standard practice by employers upon an employee giving notice is you are immediately fired and told to take your personal belongings and escorted out by a security guard. That never happened to me. And I gave a lot of two-week notices in my career. In fact, I do not know anyone to whom this happened.
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,173	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"

20th March 2012, 11:21 AM	#108
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Spindrift That has not been my experience. Only once did that happen to me. And I've given notice on at least 7 occasions in 30 years. So I wouldn't say it's standard practice, though it is not unusual It is increasingly seen by HR as a protection against a potentially disgruntled soon-to-be-former employee being allowed 2 weeks of access to company property and information.
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20th March 2012, 11:22 AM	#109
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,445	Originally Posted by jhunter1163 Connecticut is an "at-will" state, meaning that your employer can fire you at any time for any reason, or for no reason. Of course, it also means that you can stand up at your desk and say loudly "Take this job and SHOVE it!" and walk out, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Why you would do that, I don't know.. but you COULD. They can fire your for any reason except a bad reason (i.e. discrimination of all sorts from race to age to sex). Which is why many will play the "The position has been eliminated" game, when they want to get rid of someone. They will then hire someone else for basically the same job, but will call it something different and slightly change the duties.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

20th March 2012, 11:26 AM	#110
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,410	In the UK, even though you may be entitled to a substantial period of notice of dismissal, it's not uncommon for people to be escorted off the premises as soon as they've been told and sent on paid 'gardening leave' for the notice period. That tends to happen in situations where it's felt a resentful employee could do serious damage to the company during their notice period.

20th March 2012, 11:27 AM	#111
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge Whenever I saw that happen in movies (inevitably at the moment which drops the boss into maximum trouble) I always assumed it was unrealistic. Maybe I was wrong. In a land as famously litigious as the US I imagined any damage to the company's business caused by the character suddenly walking off the job would be guaranteed to get them sued. In the case of a key employee, or proof of some sabotage or extreme negligence, maybe. But the 13th Amendment pretty much covers the right to walk away at any time. If the employer isn't ready to pick up the slack on a moment's notice, then what do they do when an employee drops dead in the middle of an important project? Sue their family?
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

20th March 2012, 11:28 AM	#112
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,329	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge In the UK, even though you may be entitled to a substantial period of notice of dismissal, it's not uncommon for people to be escorted off the premises as soon as they've been told and sent on paid 'gardening leave' for the notice period. That tends to happen in situations where it's felt a resentful employee could do serious damage to the company during their notice period. I've highlighted the relevant word.
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat

20th March 2012, 11:28 AM	#113
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,445	Originally Posted by crimresearch It is increasingly seen by HR as a protection against a potentially disgruntled soon-to-be-former employee being allowed 2 weeks of access to company property and information. Often the person is not 'fired' on the spot. They are usually paid for the two weeks and are told not to show up for work. So technically they are still employed, but they are denied access to the job to avoid a potentially disgruntled worker infecting others. On the other hand, when I left one job, they tried to get me to stay longer (I didn't) and then they paid me good money to do part time work for almost two years until they finally sunset the product I was working on.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

20th March 2012, 11:32 AM	#114
DavidByron Thinker Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 132	Originally Posted by 3point14 It seems that usians are much less willing to give up privacies and freedoms to their government that yropeans are. Well both corporate parties now say the US president can quite literally have any US citizen picked up off the street held indefinitely without charges or just executed with no legal process, no judge, no evidence, no representation, no notification, no nothing. So I'd say they were pretty happy giving up freedoms to the government. Especially since 9-11. The whole "dead" thing makes privacy moot but apparently the NSA monitors everyone's calls and email in the US now. Again this is both parties endorsing this and very few Americans have any issue with it. It's more that if it is a corporation Americans don't even consider that they might even be an issue of rights. That's how they can believe being fired for having a Democratic party sticker is NOT a free speech issue. Instead they see it as a worker rights issue and they believe workers are better off with no rights because the government and big corporations say so. After all you should just go and work somewhere else right? And yes, they have massive unemployment.
DavidByron Thinker Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 132

20th March 2012, 11:35 AM	#115
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,066	Originally Posted by jhunter1163 Connecticut is an "at-will" state, meaning that your employer can fire you at any time for any reason, or for no reason. Of course, it also means that you can stand up at your desk and say loudly "Take this job and SHOVE it!" and walk out, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Why you would do that, I don't know.. but you COULD. There is a problem with this, though. If you stand up on your desk and say shove it and walk out, there's nothing an employer could about it, no. But what COULD they do about it? Force you to work? No, that doesn't work. They could force you to come, but they can't force you to do anything. They could stop paying you, but that kind of goes part and parcel with quitting so it's not really a penalty. The only thing imaginable is that you would have to pay a severance fee, but only then if your contract specifies it, but that is rare. So I don't really see all that much power in at-will termination from the employee's side. The two-weeks notice has always been basically a courtesy move. I guess they could sue, but for what? Lost ... revenue? Of course, the easiest way to overcome that is to just give two weeks notice and then show up for work and screw around. You can't be sued for not trying at your job. On the employer's side, however, it is huge, because if I fire you now instead of two weeks from now, I don't have to pay you. And I don't have you working as a useless lame duck employee ("Stop jacking off and get to work!" "Why? What are you going to do, fire me?").
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly) Last edited by pgwenthold; 20th March 2012 at 11:38 AM.