NOT another Trayvon Martin thread - Kendrec McDade shooting

[Nursefoxfire]

Surprised I haven't seen this posted antwhere yet, perhaps I overlooked it somewhere in the forum.

Quote:

911 caller arrested in deadly police shooting

Oscar Carrillo's 911 call was clear: Two young men just robbed him of his computer and backpack. At least one of them had a gun and it was pointed in Carrillo's face.

Moments later, police caught up with two teens they believed were the thieves in a Pasadena alleyway. When one of them, Kendrec McDade, made a move at his waistband, an officer opened fire, killing the 19-year-old college student, authorities said.

No weapons or the stolen items have been found.

Now, police are laying part of the blame for the fatal shooting on Carrillo, who they say admitted that he lied about the men being armed so officers would respond faster. "The actions of the 911 caller set the minds of the officers," police Chief Phillip Sanchez said.

As the nation focuses on the fatal shooting of Florida teen Trayvon Martin by a neighborhood watchman, the police shooting in Pasadena raises more questions about the role and responsibility of those who report or witness crimes.

While experts say it's not uncommon for people to exaggerate the circumstances of a crime — especially if they are the victim — most are unaware about the importance of their role in an emergency response and the potential consequences.

"Lots of people's lives are in jeopardy," said Joseph Pollini, a professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. "If you make a bogus call, you may be taking away from something where someone else's life is in danger."

Pollini said the Pasadena case is a good example of holding people accountable.

"To a certain degree he (Carrillo) is liable for what he caused the police to do what they did," Pollini said. "There should be a thorough investigation."

Caree Harper, an attorney representing McDade's family, said arresting Carrillo may be an attempt by police to shift blame away from the officers. Harper added that Carrillo should be prosecuted for filing a false police report.

"However, he didn't pull the trigger and the officers can use discretion," she said. "They can't blame the caller because they shot an unarmed black man."...

See the rest of the story and video here.

For what it's worth, many of the comments disagree with the family's attorney, that this was a racial issue and her client was gunned down because he was black.

[commandlinegamer]

Has echoes of the Harry Stanley case, where, if I recall correctly, a man carrying a table leg in a plastic bag, was shot and killed by police, due at least in part to unreliable evidence from a witness in a pub he had been in earlier. The witness thought Stanley had a gun in the bag.

[sgtbaker]

Is it possible that the officer would have shot anyway; with or without the kid saying he had a gun? It says police caught up with them, did the officer have his weapon drawn when the kid went for his waistband?

[LTC8K6]

What if Carrillo was simply mistaken about the gun? The scenario plays out the same.

There's always the chance that the witness is mistaken.

This shouldn't be blamed on Carrillo, imo.

[Stacko]

Originally Posted by sgtbaker

Is it possible that the officer would have shot anyway; with or without the kid saying he had a gun? It says police caught up with them, did the officer have his weapon drawn when the kid went for his waistband?

I think it would be standard protocol for officers to have their weapons drawn when approaching a suspect they believe to be armed.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Venusians are outraged today after a young Venusian male was shot by police, despite not being armed. It is alleged that the man had stolen goods earlier that night, and that the police believed he had a weapon. He ran from police, and then made a move to reach in to his waistband and was shot.

The victim's mother is outraged, explaining that on Venus there is no such thing as personal property, thus her child had committed no crime, and deserved justice. The Venusian lawyer for the family also said her client had committed no crime, and that he had been "shot down like an Aprillyx-drone in the street, for being Venusian during a sunless-period."

Venusians around the country are angry at the concept that a Venusian could be shot by police without them waiting for the man to first try and kill them. 17% of Venusians would still be angry with the police even if he had removed a a type A-Atomizer from his waistband and atomized the first police officer.

[Bikewer]

Police are confronted by such situations frequently. It can be very difficult to make an instant decision that might result in a shooting incident either way....
You are given a report of an armed robbery and confront a subject that matches the description given.
You order the individual to "halt" or "freeze". Instead, the suspect makes a motion towards his waistband where a weapon might reasonably be hidden. What do you do?
If you wait to actually see the weapon, it's likely too late.
Why do people do these things? It's possible the police fabricated the suspicous movement to justify their actions, but we see this sort of thing all the time. We have video...

The individual panics. The individual reaches for his phone. The individual goes into a fairly common mindset...."The police. If I ignore them they'll go away." (believe me, this happens) The individual is intoxicated or on drugs and makes an improper response.

You can go on and on. And sometimes, the individual is a career felon who does not want to be arrested and who is actually reaching for a gun and intends to shoot it out with the police. Just watched a video last week where a state trooper stopped what was a apparently a rather routine DWI which then resulted in his discovery of a sizeable bag of drugs on one suspect.... All rather routine.... Then both people in the car drew guns and started firing.
The trooper fell into a ditch with a minor wound and was only saved due to the extremely poor marksmanship of the two felons....

[sgtbaker]

Originally Posted by Stacko

I think it would be standard protocol for officers to have their weapons drawn when approaching a suspect they believe to be armed.

I was unclear and that's my bad. I mean was it a situation where they had their guns drawn and told the suspects not to move, or what ever non Hollywood police say to stop a suspect? If that's the case, would they have had their guns drawn, whether or not they thought the suspect was armed? I guess I just want to know if the same scenerio would/could have gone down, had the 911 caller not stated that the robbers were armed.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Nursefoxfire

Surprised I haven't seen this posted antwhere yet, perhaps I overlooked it somewhere in the forum.



See the rest of the story and video here.

For what it's worth, many of the comments disagree with the family's attorney, that this was a racial issue and her client was gunned down because he was black.

Thats a bad one, considering the last news story I posted about I refrained!

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Police are confronted by such situations frequently. It can be very difficult to make an instant decision that might result in a shooting incident either way....
You are given a report of an armed robbery and confront a subject that matches the description given.
You order the individual to "halt" or "freeze". Instead, the suspect makes a motion towards his waistband where a weapon might reasonably be hidden. What do you do?
If you wait to actually see the weapon, it's likely too late.
Why do people do these things? It's possible the police fabricated the suspicous movement to justify their actions, but we see this sort of thing all the time. We have video...

The individual panics. The individual reaches for his phone. The individual goes into a fairly common mindset...."The police. If I ignore them they'll go away." (believe me, this happens) The individual is intoxicated or on drugs and makes an improper response.

You can go on and on. And sometimes, the individual is a career felon who does not want to be arrested and who is actually reaching for a gun and intends to shoot it out with the police. Just watched a video last week where a state trooper stopped what was a apparently a rather routine DWI which then resulted in his discovery of a sizeable bag of drugs on one suspect.... All rather routine.... Then both people in the car drew guns and started firing.
The trooper fell into a ditch with a minor wound and was only saved due to the extremely poor marksmanship of the two felons....

Says it all.

[Xulld]

Being mistaken is one thing, purposefully lying is a whole other thing. The intent in lying IMHO is not response time, but the desire to have the vandals punished for taking the laptop, OR to better justify your inability to fight them off.

I just cant understand lying in this way for the reasons I see as probable. Did I miss what they are charging him with?

Edit: ahh, I did, filing a false police report: could not agree more.

[aggle-rithm]

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

Venusians are outraged today after a young Venusian male was shot by police, despite not being armed. It is alleged that the man had stolen goods earlier that night, and that the police believed he had a weapon. He ran from police, and then made a move to reach in to his waistband and was shot.

The victim's mother is outraged, explaining that on Venus there is no such thing as personal property, thus her child had committed no crime, and deserved justice. The Venusian lawyer for the family also said her client had committed no crime, and that he had been "shot down like an Aprillyx-drone in the street, for being Venusian during a sunless-period."

Venusians around the country are angry at the concept that a Venusian could be shot by police without them waiting for the man to first try and kill them. 17% of Venusians would still be angry with the police even if he had removed a a type A-Atomizer from his waistband and atomized the first police officer.

Almost a perfect analogy.

Almost.

You overlooked one crucial fact: Venusians are allergic to chocolate.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

Venusians are outraged today after a young Venusian male was shot by police, despite not being armed. It is alleged that the man had stolen goods earlier that night, and that the police believed he had a weapon. He ran from police, and then made a move to reach in to his waistband and was shot.

The victim's mother is outraged, explaining that on Venus there is no such thing as personal property, thus her child had committed no crime, and deserved justice. The Venusian lawyer for the family also said her client had committed no crime, and that he had been "shot down like an Aprillyx-drone in the street, for being Venusian during a sunless-period."

Venusians around the country are angry at the concept that a Venusian could be shot by police without them waiting for the man to first try and kill them. 17% of Venusians would still be angry with the police even if he had removed a a type A-Atomizer from his waistband and atomized the first police officer.

The world would be ever so much better if we would be more conducive to conformity and more accepting of authority. I'm not sure why some people think they are more likely to be treated unfairly because of social status or race. It's unfortunate really.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Originally Posted by RandFan

The world would be ever so much better if we would be more conducive to conformity and more accepting of authority. I'm not sure why some people think they are more likely to be treated unfairly because of social status or race. It's unfortunate really.

Suggesting that most police shootings are not racially motivated slayings, and that certain groups may have a history of hysterical overreaction based upon having the same skin color as the dead person = a contention that we should all surrender to a fascist police state.

Well, that sounds reasonable.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by RandFan

The world would be ever so much better if we would be more conducive to conformity and more accepting of authority. I'm not sure why some people think they are more likely to be treated unfairly because of social status or race. It's unfortunate really.

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

Suggesting that most police shootings are not racially motivated slayings, and that certain groups may have a history of hysterical overreaction based upon having the same skin color as the dead person = a contention that we should all surrender to a fascist police state.

Well, that sounds reasonable.

Would be more = surrender.

Well, that sounds reasonable.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by LTC8K6

What if Carrillo was simply mistaken about the gun? The scenario plays out the same.

There's always the chance that the witness is mistaken.

This shouldn't be blamed on Carrillo, imo.

He mistakenly reported a gun being pointed directly at his face?

[Jekyll's Guest]

Originally Posted by RandFan

Would be more = surrender.

Well, that sounds reasonable.

OK, I'm going to request you specifically lay out your stance.

Here is mine:

I generally trust police officers to tell the truth and protect us. Unless there is solid evidence of wrongdoing, or a great reason to believe they are lying, I will accept their version of events.

There is a clear history of powerful sections the black community creating a media circus and mobs of angry people over cases where the only common denominator is the skin color of the persons involved. The Duke kids had their civil rights trampled over and went through hell, and the inciters just moved on to the next outrage.

I am pro transparency, anti race baiting and demonizing.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

OK, I'm going to request you specifically lay out your stance.

Here is mine:

I generally trust police officers to tell the truth and protect us. Unless there is solid evidence of wrongdoing, or a great reason to believe they are lying, I will accept their version of events.

There is a clear history of powerful sections the black community creating a media circus and mobs of angry people over cases where the only common denominator is the skin color of the persons involved. The Duke kids had their civil rights trampled over and went through hell, and the inciters just moved on to the next outrage.

I am pro transparency, anti race baiting and demonizing.

I generally trust police officers to tell the truth and protect us. It's the degree of the exception that bothers me.

There is a clear history of police corruption and abuse. There is evidence that the police are less sensitive to poor people in general and black people in particular. It's arguable how much as blacks are disproportionately poor.

The Duke Lacrosse case was a travesty but so was Abner Louima. Oh, and BTW: Please to tell me who it was that used the power of their authority against the Duke defendants? Let me tell you, it was the police and prosecutors. The police write the reports. The police control the evidence. Now police agencies are lobbying to make video taping the police a criminal act. Why? Do you think the police are pro-transparency?

People who believe there is social injustice have every right to speak out. Democracy and freedom of expression are our best tools for social change. They can be blunt objects and often, like the police, they are misused. But, in the end, the market place of ideas is our best hope.

• Social and moral progress is the synthesis of the dialectic (paraphrased) --Hegel.
• Social and moral progress is the equilibrium found in an adversarial system (paraphrased) --Michael Sandel.

Sit down and shut up isn't conducive to a democracy. Less speech not more isn't a good idea.


It's wrong to tarnish all of the police for what happened to Louima. It's wrong to tarnish the entire black community because of Tawana Brawley or Crystal Magnum.



That's my case.

[Xulld]

Originally Posted by RandFan

I generally trust police officers to tell the truth and protect us. It's the degree of the exception that bothers me.

There is a clear history of police corruption and abuse. There is evidence that the police are less sensitive to poor people in general and black people in particular. It's arguable how much as blacks are disproportionately poor.

The Duke Lacrosse case was a travesty but so was Abner Louima. Oh, and BTW: Please to tell me who it was that used the power of their authority against the Duke defendants? Let me tell you, it was the police and prosecutors. The police write the reports. The police control the evidence. Now police agencies are lobbying to make video taping the police a criminal act. Why? Do you think the police are pro-transparency?

People who believe there is social injustice have every right to speak out. Democracy and freedom of expression are our best tools for social change. They can be blunt objects and often, like the police, they are misused. But, in the end, the market place of ideas is our best hope.

• Social and moral progress is the synthesis of the dialectic (paraphrased) --Hegel.
• Social and moral progress is the equilibrium found in an adversarial system (paraphrased) --Michael Sandel.

Sit down and shut up isn't conducive to a democracy. Less speech not more isn't a good idea.


It's wrong to tarnish all of the police for what happened to Louima. It's wrong to tarnish the entire black community because of Tawana Brawley or Crystal Magnum.



That's my case.

I agree, however its all the more reason for each of us to treat each other fairly here on these forums and deal with the entirety of each others arguments.

The social medium is valuable, but only so long as we remain as objective as we can in our dealings with each other.

[Peephole]

You guys in the US really have to stop shooting eachother.

[LTC8K6]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

He mistakenly reported a gun being pointed directly at his face?

No, you misunderstood my post.

[Mumbles]

Not that I advocate lying to 911...

When I was growing up, I was told, repeatedly, that the only way to get police to respond quickly to a violent event, was to say that an officer had been hit, or to suggest that this may have happened. And in my experience, phoning in, say, a woman being beaten in the street by her husband, would not get a quick response, even if a police car had just left the sene a few seconds beforehand.

But yes, in this case, I'm fine with the caller being charged.

[RandFan]

I think there is much the police could do to improve relations with the community. They could be more transparent. They could stop fighting things like videotaping the police. They could implement the reforms often made by blue ribbon panels and third party groups like the ACLU. The siege mentality exacerbates and strains relations.

When Mike Nifong withheld evidence from the Duke defendants it was one more outrage that caused the citizens to mistrust those in authority. I'm grateful that he was found to have abused his office, disbarred and removed from office. Sadly a lot of abuse is simply ignored. Had the Duke defendants been poor and not able to afford excellent attorneys they may very well be in prison today.

[SonOfLaertes]

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Says it all.

No, it doesn't. Police patrolling neighborhoods where gang violence is endemic - regardless of the race or ethnicity - are likely to be very touchy and somewhat shell-shocked, true. However, in this case the officer had his gun drawn and pointed at the kid. Any officer worth his badge should have been able to refrain from shooting at that point. He had a least a full second or two to asses the situation. This particular cop is not psychologically fit for duty.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Originally Posted by RandFan

Sit down and shut up isn't conducive to a democracy. Less speech not more isn't a good idea.

The mother questioning the legality of her son's death is logical.

Equality groups providing her with legal and emotional support if they feel there is potential truth to her concerns is logical.

Lawyers, politicians, the media and talking heads instantly claiming that someone is a victim of a racist corruption because they happen to be young and black is dangerous nonsense, and they are never held to account for the trouble they brew up.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

The mother questioning the legality of her son's death is logical.

Equality groups providing her with legal and emotional support if they feel there is potential truth to her concerns is logical.

Lawyers, politicians, the media and talking heads instantly claiming that someone is a victim of a racist corruption because they happen to be young and black is dangerous nonsense, and they are never held to account for the trouble they brew up.

Yeah, freedom and democracy can be a messy thing. You have a point.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Originally Posted by RandFan

Yeah, freedom and democracy can be a messy thing. You have a point.

Thank you, and you also have valid points.

I have no problem with equality group or transparency, what i despise is the demagogues inciting hatred and attempting to circumvent the criminal justice system, and how (not a pun) bulletproof this particular group of race baiters are.

PS - Here is a smiley to show that only my words are heated, and not me

[SonOfLaertes]

Originally Posted by RandFan

I think there is much the police could do to improve relations with the community. They could be more transparent. They could stop fighting things like videotaping the police. They could implement the reforms often made by blue ribbon panels and third party groups like the ACLU. The siege mentality exacerbates and strains relations.

When Mike Nifong withheld evidence from the Duke defendants it was one more outrage that caused the citizens to mistrust those in authority. I'm grateful that he was found to have abused his office, disbarred and removed from office. Sadly a lot of abuse is simply ignored. Had the Duke defendants been poor and not able to afford excellent attorneys they may very well be in prison today.

No amount of community outreach, education, or coddling will suffice. There is too much money at stake. This is war, but one side has to pretend it's not and must let let the other side shoot first.

Baldly stated, neighborhoods where gang activity is common are combat zones, where there is little respect for life; actually, there is more of a disrespect for life which manifests itself into respect for those who have murdered in cold blood. The violence is corporate, and cunningly shaped to terrorize and unnerve. These gangs use terror and fear as a policy tool. They are well-organized, very well-off, and prey on their own as well as those in the suburbs. Their customers are expertly lead into the kinds of addiction which has them fanning out, armed, everywhere to feed their habit. They can buy the guns from the same place they buy the drugs, and cheaply.

I accompanied a friend to an established drug area on one of his cocaine buys some years ago (as a wanna-be writer, it is the kind of experience one cannot pass up, frightened as I was). The experience was eye-opening. He instructed me on where to park, what to say if a cop showed up (one did), and the infrastructure of the blocks surrounding my parking spot. He pointed out the houses where lookouts were posted with a squad of armed help on standby, in case a rival gang tried to stir up trouble. He left. Every three minutes or so a kid stuck his head out of the sentry house and yelled something which was taken up by other houses in the area. When a local approached my car someone popped out of nowhere and herded him away. Through those 30 minutes which lasted 30 hours that coalescence of a foot soldier out of nowhere, even though he was looking out for me, scared me the most.

Few of this large group of gang members lives in this area, of course. (Kensington & Allegheny in Philadelphia, K&A to the locals). The local area is for 1). the gang's working children not old enough to move out 2). those unfortunate good people still left with nowhere else to go who are for the most part elderly grandparents supporting whole families, including some of the gang members 3). younger people who are not gang members but are trying to stick it out because you live there for nothing and savings can be built, and 4). (largest group) addicts living day to day on welfare, food stamps, the emergency room for health care coverage, and stolen items. The gang members have nice houses elsewhere (which used to be off-limits by mutual agreement but are now seeing more frequent home invasions as the situation degrades), or for the foot soldiers apartments in safer areas.

When the current generation of solid, hard-working elderly passes away part of this whole structure will collapse.

Footnote: my friend only made it another two years and is now dead.

Poor neighborhoods such as these may look like devastated wastelands but they are actually fiefdoms run by a well-compensated minority who rule their territory with an iron fist. The police are caught naked in the middle of a viscous war between cold and heartless killers, armed to the teeth and with no restrictions on their own conduct.

I have seen a friend who was foolish enough to take a job as a cop in Camden, NJ become a bundle of shaking nerves after less than a year on the job - he scares me now when there is a loud noise or anything unexpected happens. His attitude towards life has changed completely - if I didn't know him I would take him as a thug. He expects to die young. His fellow officers are his brothers in the foxhole, and I myself do not know him anymore. I can only hope that he himself does not snap and kill someone who is not about to kill him.

[Xulld]

Its my understanding that if you control for gang related death, the US is actually on par with the rest of the world for gun related killings.

I think the story above holds a lot of truth. From age 1-12 I lived in a very well off neighborhood. When my mother divorced we moved into the ghetto, culture shock was an understatement.

I have three friends who never made it out. Some are dieing slowly from addiction. As soon as I could, I got out.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

Thank you, and you also have valid points.

I have no problem with equality group or transparency, what i despise is the demagogues inciting hatred and attempting to circumvent the criminal justice system, and how (not a pun) bulletproof this particular group of race baiters are.

PS - Here is a smiley to show that only my words are heated, and not me

Next thing you know cats and dogs will be living together. Thanks.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by SonOfLaertes

No amount of community outreach, education, or coddling will suffice. There is too much money at stake. This is war, but one side has to pretend it's not and must let let the other side shoot first.

Baldly stated, neighborhoods where gang activity is common are combat zones, where there is little respect for life; actually, there is more of a disrespect for life which manifests itself into respect for those who have murdered in cold blood. The violence is corporate, and cunningly shaped to terrorize and unnerve. These gangs use terror and fear as a policy tool. They are well-organized, very well-off, and prey on their own as well as those in the suburbs. Their customers are expertly lead into the kinds of addiction which has them fanning out, armed, everywhere to feed their habit. They can buy the guns from the same place they buy the drugs, and cheaply.

I accompanied a friend to an established drug area on one of his cocaine buys some years ago (as a wanna-be writer, it is the kind of experience one cannot pass up, frightened as I was). The experience was eye-opening. He instructed me on where to park, what to say if a cop showed up (one did), and the infrastructure of the blocks surrounding my parking spot. He pointed out the houses where lookouts were posted with a squad of armed help on standby, in case a rival gang tried to stir up trouble. He left. Every three minutes or so a kid stuck his head out of the sentry house and yelled something which was taken up by other houses in the area. When a local approached my car someone popped out of nowhere and herded him away. Through those 30 minutes which lasted 30 hours that coalescence of a foot soldier out of nowhere, even though he was looking out for me, scared me the most.

Few of this large group of gang members lives in this area, of course. (Kensington & Allegheny in Philadelphia, K&A to the locals). The local area is for 1). the gang's working children not old enough to move out 2). those unfortunate good people still left with nowhere else to go who are for the most part elderly grandparents supporting whole families, including some of the gang members 3). younger people who are not gang members but are trying to stick it out because you live there for nothing and savings can be built, and 4). (largest group) addicts living day to day on welfare, food stamps, the emergency room for health care coverage, and stolen items. The gang members have nice houses elsewhere (which used to be off-limits by mutual agreement but are now seeing more frequent home invasions as the situation degrades), or for the foot soldiers apartments in safer areas.

When the current generation of solid, hard-working elderly passes away part of this whole structure will collapse.

Footnote: my friend only made it another two years and is now dead.

Poor neighborhoods such as these may look like devastated wastelands but they are actually fiefdoms run by a well-compensated minority who rule their territory with an iron fist. The police are caught naked in the middle of a viscous war between cold and heartless killers, armed to the teeth and with no restrictions on their own conduct.

I have seen a friend who was foolish enough to take a job as a cop in Camden, NJ become a bundle of shaking nerves after less than a year on the job - he scares me now when there is a loud noise or anything unexpected happens. His attitude towards life has changed completely - if I didn't know him I would take him as a thug. He expects to die young. His fellow officers are his brothers in the foxhole, and I myself do not know him anymore. I can only hope that he himself does not snap and kill someone who is not about to kill him.

Good post. It's a complex problem. No easy solutions but I do think the police could do so much more. I don't claim to have all of the answers and I know it's frustrating for the police and community leaders.

[SonOfLaertes]

Originally Posted by RandFan

Good post. It's a complex problem. No easy solutions but I do think the police could do so much more. I don't claim to have all of the answers and I know it's frustrating for the police and community leaders.

Agreed.

[crimresearch]

Originally Posted by Randfan

...Now police agencies are lobbying to make video taping the police a criminal act.

Nothing in that linked article uses those words, or describes anything remotely resembling them. The courts have rejected such arguments the few times they've come up.

Here's what happening in yourneighborhood today:

Videotaping police in the course of their duties is "unambiguously" a free speech right protected under the First Amendment, the 1st Circuit held in a recent decision.
http://www.law.com/jsp/lawtechnology...n=1&slreturn=1

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by SonOfLaertes

Agreed.

BTW: I should have noted before, I'm sorry about your friend. One of my closest friends took his life at 18. It really tore me up.

[SonOfLaertes]

Originally Posted by RandFan

BTW: I should have noted before, I'm sorry about your friend. One of my closest friends took his life at 18. It really tore me up.

Thank you, Randfan.