Why I do not feel guilty about using Bit Torrent

Mark6 · 5th April 2012, 06:54 AM

Months ago I cancelled my cable subscription because it is blatantly not worth $100 a month to me. My family does not watch much TV, and what we do watch we get for free from the web, or for $8 a month from Netflix. This week for the first time since cancelling cable I wanted to watch something not legally available on web (including Netflix) -- Season 2 of "Game of Thrones". I went to HBO Go website, as some ads suggested I could buy the show there. That turned out not to be the case -- once you click on "Game of Thrones episode X", it takes you to a page which sells you complete HBO package. Which I emphatically do not want.

After finding that out, I installed a Bit Torrent downloader, and downloaded first and second episodes of Season Two. I would have happily paid HBO five or six dollars per episode -- which would actually bring HBO more money than buying a DVD set after season ends. But HBO is not offering shows a la carte... so screw them.

ehcks · 5th April 2012, 06:57 AM

I do believe you also stole this story from somewhere, because I know I've read it before.

Not that I disapprove.

Lisa Simpson · 5th April 2012, 06:58 AM

Or, you could buy it legally from iTunes.

OCaptain · 5th April 2012, 06:59 AM

To me, and since you asked, it looks as though you're upset about not getting the precise value you want from your cable subscription, so you justify your illegal actions by saying you're just getting back at those who you see as having ripped you off.

ehcks · 5th April 2012, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson

Or, you could buy it legally from iTunes.

It doesn't look like season 2 is available. Episodes 1-10 and 101-110. Is that season 2?

Giraffe107 · 5th April 2012, 07:07 AM

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones

ehcks · 5th April 2012, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

To me, and since you asked, it looks as though you're upset about not getting the precise value you want from your cable subscription, so you justify your illegal actions by saying you're just getting back at those who you see as having ripped you off.

It's more of a problem that they aren't selling at all. They don't appear to care about sales profit because there are no sales at all.

He's trying to get a legal version of season 2 but it doesn't exist on Hulu, Netflix, iTunes, HBO online, DVD or anywhere else. They won't accept his money, so he got it anyway.

Originally Posted by Giraffe107

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones

There it is! I knew I saw this before.

Mark6 · 5th April 2012, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by ehcks

It's more of a problem that they aren't selling at all. They don't appear to care about sales profit because there are no sales at all.

He's trying to get a legal version of season 2 but it doesn't exist on Hulu, Netflix, iTunes, HBO online, DVD or anywhere else. They won't accept his money, so he got it anyway.

Correct. HBO will only sell an entire subscription. 95% of which I do not want. How would you feel if you went to a supermarket for two pounds of beef, and were told "Sorry, we only sell a whole steer"?

Quote:

There it is! I knew I saw this before.

Wow! Not many different ways to say same thing!

RecoveringYuppy · 5th April 2012, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by ehcks

He's trying to get a legal version of season 2 but it doesn't exist on Hulu, Netflix, iTunes, HBO online, DVD or anywhere else. They won't accept his money, so he got it anyway.

That argument wouldn't sound at all reasonable applied to almost anything else that can be sold.

You put your house on the market. Someone comes along and wants to buy your house and your car. You tell them the car isn't for sale. You OK with them then stealing your car?

Mark6 · 5th April 2012, 07:17 AM

While my argument is not reasonable with respect to houses/cars, it is reasonable with respect to anything easily divisible. Like food or data.

Fishstick · 5th April 2012, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

That argument wouldn't sound at all reasonable applied to almost anything else that can be sold.

You put your house on the market. Someone comes along and wants to buy your house and your car. You tell them the car isn't for sale. You OK with them then stealing your car?

That would work if stealing your car left the original car intact and the thief made off with a duplicate of your car.

ehcks · 5th April 2012, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

That argument wouldn't sound at all reasonable applied to almost anything else that can be sold.

You put your house on the market. Someone comes along and wants to buy your house and your car. You tell them the car isn't for sale. You OK with them then stealing your car?

A TV show isn't a physical object. They can make and distribute as many copies as they want with no real limit.

If you steal a car, someone loses a car. If you copy a TV show, no one loses that TV show.

And again, they aren't selling it at all to anyone. You are getting the ability to watch the show without paying when they aren't allowing anyone to pay. No one lost anything.

Moon-Spinner · 5th April 2012, 07:24 AM

A lot of TV shows can be watched on the internet these days, and without even having to torrent them, or doing anything else inappropriate. Just go to Hulu....

or www.cbs...

or www.nbc...

or www.abc...

Fishstick · 5th April 2012, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Moon-Spinner

A lot of TV shows can be watched on the internet these days, and without even having to torrent them, or doing anything else inappropriate. Just go to Hulu....

or www.cbs...

or www.nbc...

or www.abc...

Hulu and a lot of those channel-specific sites filter viewers from non-US countries, so that's not always an option either.

TheL8Elvis · 5th April 2012, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by Mark6

Months ago I cancelled my cable subscription because it is blatantly not worth $100 a month to me. My family does not watch much TV, and what we do watch we get for free from the web, or for $8 a month from Netflix. This week for the first time since cancelling cable I wanted to watch something not legally available on web (including Netflix) -- Season 2 of "Game of Thrones". I went to HBO Go website, as some ads suggested I could buy the show there. That turned out not to be the case -- once you click on "Game of Thrones episode X", it takes you to a page which sells you complete HBO package. Which I emphatically do not want.

After finding that out, I installed a Bit Torrent downloader, and downloaded first and second episodes of Season Two. I would have happily paid HBO five or six dollars per episode -- which would actually bring HBO more money than buying a DVD set after season ends. But HBO is not offering shows a la carte... so screw them.

Cool story, bro.

Are you trying to argue that what you did is acceptable/moral, or are you making some other point ?

Also:
http://ihnatko.com/2012/02/20/heavy-...nts-the-crown/

Mark6 · 5th April 2012, 07:49 AM

Mostly my point is that HBO is being boneheaded in the way it sells content. And yes, I consider what I am doing acceptable. I made an honest effort to buy their product. They made it impossible to do so without "buying the whole steer".

And I like the article you linked to.

BTW, I never thought to check iTunes. Maybe I will buy the rest of episodes there.

Lukraak_Sisser · 5th April 2012, 07:52 AM

While I do buy my dvd's legally, sometimes I wonder why.
The worst examples recently were buying the whole Bab5 collection and seeing a friends collection of tom and jerry cartoons.
On the bab5 collection every single dvd has a 2 minute warning telling me piracy is a crime that CANNOT be skipped. The Tom and Jerry took the cake though, the warning was in about 25 languages and took over 5 minutes, again unskippable.
THe first thing a pirate does is rip that stuff away, so you can immedately watch what you pirated. So not only is it cheaper, its actually better than the legitimate stuff.
Not to mention the whole region thing.
Guess its my own fault for actually wanting to support the film makers though.

Marcus · 5th April 2012, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Mark6

Months ago I cancelled my cable subscription because it is blatantly not worth $100 a month to me. My family does not watch much TV, and what we do watch we get for free from the web, or for $8 a month from Netflix. This week for the first time since cancelling cable I wanted to watch something not legally available on web (including Netflix) -- Season 2 of "Game of Thrones". I went to HBO Go website, as some ads suggested I could buy the show there. That turned out not to be the case -- once you click on "Game of Thrones episode X", it takes you to a page which sells you complete HBO package. Which I emphatically do not want.

After finding that out, I installed a Bit Torrent downloader, and downloaded first and second episodes of Season Two. I would have happily paid HBO five or six dollars per episode -- which would actually bring HBO more money than buying a DVD set after season ends. But HBO is not offering shows a la carte... so screw them.

I might do the same thing, if I wasn't an HBO subscriber. I would acknowledge that it was theft, though, no one has a right to their programming, even if it's not marketed in a manner you prefer.

Babbylonian · 5th April 2012, 07:53 AM

Mark6, you can feel however you want, but the fact that HBO doesn't want to sell you something right away (you know it will be available by other means at some point) doesn't make it right to violate their copyright.

HBO has a business model that's worked for them a long time. When it stops working, and when contracts start running out, they'll change. One would think that when their business model supports the production of high-quality television, that should be a reason for consumers to support it, either by purchasing a subscription to their service or buying the shows through legitimate means when they become available in other formats.

ETA: You know, the same argument could be used to justify buying illegal DVDs of movies still in theaters: "Hey, I don't want to pay for my whole family to see John Carter in a theater, but I'd buy the DVD if it was available. I guess I'll just have to buy an illegal version until they smarten up."

TheL8Elvis · 5th April 2012, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

I might do the same thing, if I wasn't an HBO subscriber. I would acknowledge that it was theft, though, no one has a right to their programming, even if it's not marketed in a manner you prefer.

<soapbox>
copyright infringement is not theft
</soapbox>

NewtonTrino · 5th April 2012, 08:07 AM

I think you should be ashamed of yourself IMHO.

Ask yourself why there are so few networks doing shows that have the same level of production quality as Game of Thrones. They have a business model they have built so that they can economically make these kinds of shows. It's called driving subscriptions to their network as an overall package. Without that steady income there is no way they could finance stuff like this. How much do you think it costs to make a season of this show?

I assume you don't shop at costco either since they require a "subscription". If you don't want to pay, you don't get to play.

TheL8Elvis · 5th April 2012, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Mark6

Mostly my point is that HBO is being boneheaded in the way it sells content. And yes, I consider what I am doing acceptable. I made an honest effort to buy their product. They made it impossible to do so without "buying the whole steer".

And I like the article you linked to.

BTW, I never thought to check iTunes. Maybe I will buy the rest of episodes there.

If you would clarify your argument of why you feel what you are doing is acceptable, it will probably save us some really bad anaologies in the future

From what you have written so far, the clear rebuttal is:
The world does not OWE you Season 1 of “Game Of Thrones” in the form you want it at the moment you want it at the price you want to pay for it. If it’s not available under 100% your terms, you have the free-and-clear option of not having it.

Checkmite · 5th April 2012, 08:20 AM

The FBI notices on DVDs are unskippable, but they are actually only between 10 and 30 seconds long.

NeilC · 5th April 2012, 08:26 AM

Whilst I'm not for wholesale copyright theft I think it's more complex that just saying people who abused copyright are stealing. If someone watches or listens to something that they'd not have paid for at the price it's on offer then nobody has lost out.

The music industry, it seems to me, have EVENTUALLY worked this out and are now starting to get their money by charging a reasonable amount via services like Spotify and Napster. It turns out that a lot of people are happy to pay that sort of money and would rather be legit than download illegally. The previous model of trying to control everything and then suing people for insane amounts of money was not viable. The actions of the RIAA and MPAA have made me lose a lot of sympathy for them and the people they represent. Destroying the lives of people who downloaded some music is a very tawdy thing to do and a sinister example of the confluence of big business and the legal system IMO.

TheL8Elvis · 5th April 2012, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

The FBI notices on DVDs are unskippable, but they are actually only between 10 and 30 seconds long.

They are quite skippable - it just requires better firmware than the default firmware on most DVD players.

(IOW the firmware has to ignore the UOP flag)

Moon-Spinner · 5th April 2012, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Moon-Spinner

A lot of TV shows can be watched on the internet these days, and without even having to torrent them, or doing anything else inappropriate. Just go to Hulu....

or www.cbs...

or www.nbc...

or www.abc...

Oh wow, I just noticed that the browser tried to make my "Suggestions" linkable (because of the preceding www). Of course they go nowhere, and I wasn't attempting to make links, so I apologize if anybody attempted to follow these "Links"

Dancing David · 5th April 2012, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Mark6

Months ago I cancelled my cable subscription because it is blatantly not worth $100 a month to me. My family does not watch much TV, and what we do watch we get for free from the web, or for $8 a month from Netflix. This week for the first time since cancelling cable I wanted to watch something not legally available on web (including Netflix) -- Season 2 of "Game of Thrones". I went to HBO Go website, as some ads suggested I could buy the show there. That turned out not to be the case -- once you click on "Game of Thrones episode X", it takes you to a page which sells you complete HBO package. Which I emphatically do not want.

After finding that out, I installed a Bit Torrent downloader, and downloaded first and second episodes of Season Two. I would have happily paid HBO five or six dollars per episode -- which would actually bring HBO more money than buying a DVD set after season ends. But HBO is not offering shows a la carte... so screw them.

That is a problem, you have to subscribe to HBO to use HBO go.

However I hope you are tech savvy, as there are risks with a bit torrent

SumDood · 5th April 2012, 09:39 AM

How much would you pay for a subscription for HBO GO? I've got friends who access it with other peoples codes since those with the subscriptions have no need for HBO GO. I think I'd easily pay $20 a month for the service if it just had the TV shows on it.

But more importantly:

Originally Posted by Mark6

... and downloaded first and second episodes of Season Two. I would have happily paid HBO five or six dollars per episode...

Season 2 Episode 2 is out in torrent land? It doesn't air until this Sunday.

Babbylonian · 5th April 2012, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by SumDood

How much would you pay for a subscription for HBO GO? I've got friends who access it with other peoples codes since those with the subscriptions have no need for HBO GO. I think I'd easily pay $20 a month for the service if it just had the TV shows on it.

I think they'll set that up once they can include it in their agreements with the cable/satellite providers, if those providers don't offer big enough incentives to keep it linked to their services. It all depends on how their agreements and renewals are set up.

icerat · 5th April 2012, 10:43 AM

What's annoying me, and I think virtually encourages piracy, is Facebook, or more specifically, the show producers on Facebook.

80% of Facebook users, including myself, are outside of North America. Like many people I "like" many of the TV shows I watch.

What do they do? Constantly tempt and harass me with news about the next (US) episode ... "don't miss it tonight!!" etc etc with trailers and competitions and other news and info.

I can wait weeks, or months, until the episode comes to my country. I can visit their website and get "this content not available in your country".

Or I can download it illegally and watch it the next day.

Hey, they told me not to miss it!

Dancing David · 5th April 2012, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by SumDood

How much would you pay for a subscription for HBO GO? I've got friends who access it with other peoples codes since those with the subscriptions have no need for HBO GO. I think I'd easily pay $20 a month for the service if it just had the TV shows on it.

But more importantly:

Season 2 Episode 2 is out in torrent land? It doesn't air until this Sunday.

You have to pay for regular HBO first...

GlennB · 5th April 2012, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by ehcks

And again, they aren't selling it at all to anyone. You are getting the ability to watch the show without paying when they aren't allowing anyone to pay. No one lost anything.

I have a lot of sympathy with this p.o.v. although I'm not at all comfortable about the legality of the whole thing.

I would happily pay to download BBC TV programs, but can't (afaics). Being outside the UK I can't watch BBC Iplayer. Who loses if I download torrents of BBC progs?

It looks like a simple case of a missed opportunity to sell stuff. It's like standing by and letting the oranges fall to the ground and rot, but then complain about theft if somebody actually picks them.

Mark6 · 5th April 2012, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

It looks like a simple case of a missed opportunity to sell stuff. It's like standing by and letting the oranges fall to the ground and rot, but then complain about theft if somebody actually picks them.

Best analogy so far on this thread, IMO. I would not feel guilty about picking said oranges either.

BTW, I tried to find any HBO show (not just Game of Thrones) on iTunes. They must hide them really well. Another great marketing strategy.

TheL8Elvis · 5th April 2012, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mark6

Best analogy so far on this thread, IMO. I would not feel guilty about picking said oranges either.

BTW, I tried to find any HBO show (not just Game of Thrones) on iTunes. They must hide them really well. Another great marketing strategy.

?
http://itunes.apple.com/us/tv-season...-1/id482730236

took me three seconds maybe....

TheL8Elvis · 5th April 2012, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

It looks like a simple case of a missed opportunity to sell stuff. It's like standing by and letting the oranges fall to the ground and rot, but then complain about theft if somebody actually picks them.

So you have a right to someones property if, in your opinion, it will otherwise go to waste ?

I don't think I understand the analogy. What is rotting ?

Mark6 · 5th April 2012, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

?
http://itunes.apple.com/us/tv-season...-1/id482730236

took me three seconds maybe....

Odd. But thank you!

Dancing David · 5th April 2012, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

?
http://itunes.apple.com/us/tv-season...-1/id482730236

took me three seconds maybe....

Same here I typed into Google 'itunes game of thrones'

Caper · 5th April 2012, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by NewtonTrino

I think you should be ashamed of yourself IMHO.

Ask yourself why there are so few networks doing shows that have the same level of production quality as Game of Thrones. They have a business model they have built so that they can economically make these kinds of shows. It's called driving subscriptions to their network as an overall package. Without that steady income there is no way they could finance stuff like this. How much do you think it costs to make a season of this show?

I assume you don't shop at costco either since they require a "subscription". If you don't want to pay, you don't get to play.

Is it wrong to borrow a friends DVD and watch that?

GlennB · 5th April 2012, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

So you have a right to someones property if, in your opinion, it will otherwise go to waste ?

I don't think I understand the analogy. What is rotting ?

My analogy was well-meaning but faulty.

Suppose I'm prepared to pay to smell somebody's roses - without intrusion or damage to their stuff - but they plain refuse, for whatever reason (including an inability to spot a marketing opportunity). So I go over and sniff the roses anyway.

No harm to anyone. Nothing is taken. I don't have anybody's property, just an experience.

TheL8Elvis · 5th April 2012, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

My analogy was well-meaning but faulty.

Suppose I'm prepared to pay to smell somebody's roses - without intrusion or damage to their stuff - but they plain refuse, for whatever reason (including an inability to spot a marketing opportunity). So I go over and sniff the roses anyway.

No harm to anyone. Nothing is taken. I don't have anybody's property, just an experience.

I agree it's not theft as you have not taken anyone's property.

As to harm ... you flaunted the rule of law and are contributing to the downfall of society ?

Seriously though :-) ... I think copyright laws are horrible, and that from my position, it appears as though business are missing an opportunity to sell me something I am willing to pay for. I'm not sure that's accurate, as I have no insights into all the agreements, rights, licensing, leveraging and everything else that must be considered in these type of things. But it certainly seems like they are missing an opportunity.

That being said - I still don't see the justification other than because you can and it doesn't bother you morally.

5th April 2012, 06:54 AM	#1
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,175	Why I do not feel guilty about using Bit Torrent Months ago I cancelled my cable subscription because it is blatantly not worth $100 a month to me. My family does not watch much TV, and what we do watch we get for free from the web, or for $8 a month from Netflix. This week for the first time since cancelling cable I wanted to watch something not legally available on web (including Netflix) -- Season 2 of "Game of Thrones". I went to HBO Go website, as some ads suggested I could buy the show there. That turned out not to be the case -- once you click on "Game of Thrones episode X", it takes you to a page which sells you complete HBO package. Which I emphatically do not want. After finding that out, I installed a Bit Torrent downloader, and downloaded first and second episodes of Season Two. I would have happily paid HBO five or six dollars per episode -- which would actually bring HBO more money than buying a DVD set after season ends. But HBO is not offering shows a la carte... so screw them.
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,175	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"

5th April 2012, 06:57 AM	#2
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,691	I do believe you also stole this story from somewhere, because I know I've read it before. Not that I disapprove.
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,691	__________________ Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

5th April 2012, 06:58 AM	#3
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,046	Or, you could buy it legally from iTunes.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

5th April 2012, 06:59 AM	#4
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917	To me, and since you asked, it looks as though you're upset about not getting the precise value you want from your cable subscription, so you justify your illegal actions by saying you're just getting back at those who you see as having ripped you off.
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917

5th April 2012, 07:02 AM	#5
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,691	Originally Posted by Lisa Simpson Or, you could buy it legally from iTunes. It doesn't look like season 2 is available. Episodes 1-10 and 101-110. Is that season 2?
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,691	__________________ Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

5th April 2012, 07:07 AM	#6
Giraffe107 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,336	http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones
	__________________ Love is a snowmobile racing across the icy tundra that suddenly flips over, trapping you beneath. At night the ice weasels come. - Matt Groening

5th April 2012, 07:07 AM	#7
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,691	Originally Posted by OCaptain To me, and since you asked, it looks as though you're upset about not getting the precise value you want from your cable subscription, so you justify your illegal actions by saying you're just getting back at those who you see as having ripped you off. It's more of a problem that they aren't selling at all. They don't appear to care about sales profit because there are no sales at all. He's trying to get a legal version of season 2 but it doesn't exist on Hulu, Netflix, iTunes, HBO online, DVD or anywhere else. They won't accept his money, so he got it anyway. Originally Posted by Giraffe107 http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones There it is! I knew I saw this before.
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,691	__________________ Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

5th April 2012, 07:11 AM	#8
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,175	Originally Posted by ehcks It's more of a problem that they aren't selling at all. They don't appear to care about sales profit because there are no sales at all. He's trying to get a legal version of season 2 but it doesn't exist on Hulu, Netflix, iTunes, HBO online, DVD or anywhere else. They won't accept his money, so he got it anyway. Correct. HBO will only sell an entire subscription. 95% of which I do not want. How would you feel if you went to a supermarket for two pounds of beef, and were told "Sorry, we only sell a whole steer"? Quote: There it is! I knew I saw this before. Wow! Not many different ways to say same thing!
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,175	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'" Last edited by Mark6; 5th April 2012 at 07:13 AM.

5th April 2012, 07:16 AM	#9
RecoveringYuppy Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,851	Originally Posted by ehcks He's trying to get a legal version of season 2 but it doesn't exist on Hulu, Netflix, iTunes, HBO online, DVD or anywhere else. They won't accept his money, so he got it anyway. That argument wouldn't sound at all reasonable applied to almost anything else that can be sold. You put your house on the market. Someone comes along and wants to buy your house and your car. You tell them the car isn't for sale. You OK with them then stealing your car?
	__________________ REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years. Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.

5th April 2012, 07:17 AM	#10
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,175	While my argument is not reasonable with respect to houses/cars, it is reasonable with respect to anything easily divisible. Like food or data.
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,175	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"

5th April 2012, 07:20 AM	#11
Fishstick Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,301	Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy That argument wouldn't sound at all reasonable applied to almost anything else that can be sold. You put your house on the market. Someone comes along and wants to buy your house and your car. You tell them the car isn't for sale. You OK with them then stealing your car? That would work if stealing your car left the original car intact and the thief made off with a duplicate of your car.

5th April 2012, 07:24 AM	#13
Moon-Spinner Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Within a star too far to dream of Posts: 1,483	A lot of TV shows can be watched on the internet these days, and without even having to torrent them, or doing anything else inappropriate. Just go to Hulu.... or www.cbs... or www.nbc... or www.abc...

5th April 2012, 07:28 AM	#14
Fishstick Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,301	Originally Posted by Moon-Spinner A lot of TV shows can be watched on the internet these days, and without even having to torrent them, or doing anything else inappropriate. Just go to Hulu.... or www.cbs... or www.nbc... or www.abc... Hulu and a lot of those channel-specific sites filter viewers from non-US countries, so that's not always an option either.

5th April 2012, 07:43 AM	#15
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513	Originally Posted by Mark6 Months ago I cancelled my cable subscription because it is blatantly not worth $100 a month to me. My family does not watch much TV, and what we do watch we get for free from the web, or for $8 a month from Netflix. This week for the first time since cancelling cable I wanted to watch something not legally available on web (including Netflix) -- Season 2 of "Game of Thrones". I went to HBO Go website, as some ads suggested I could buy the show there. That turned out not to be the case -- once you click on "Game of Thrones episode X", it takes you to a page which sells you complete HBO package. Which I emphatically do not want. After finding that out, I installed a Bit Torrent downloader, and downloaded first and second episodes of Season Two. I would have happily paid HBO five or six dollars per episode -- which would actually bring HBO more money than buying a DVD set after season ends. But HBO is not offering shows a la carte... so screw them. Cool story, bro. Are you trying to argue that what you did is acceptable/moral, or are you making some other point ? Also: http://ihnatko.com/2012/02/20/heavy-...nts-the-crown/
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513

5th April 2012, 07:49 AM	#16
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,175	Mostly my point is that HBO is being boneheaded in the way it sells content. And yes, I consider what I am doing acceptable. I made an honest effort to buy their product. They made it impossible to do so without "buying the whole steer". And I like the article you linked to. BTW, I never thought to check iTunes. Maybe I will buy the rest of episodes there.
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,175	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'" Last edited by Mark6; 5th April 2012 at 07:50 AM.

5th April 2012, 07:52 AM	#17
Lukraak_Sisser Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,618	While I do buy my dvd's legally, sometimes I wonder why. The worst examples recently were buying the whole Bab5 collection and seeing a friends collection of tom and jerry cartoons. On the bab5 collection every single dvd has a 2 minute warning telling me piracy is a crime that CANNOT be skipped. The Tom and Jerry took the cake though, the warning was in about 25 languages and took over 5 minutes, again unskippable. THe first thing a pirate does is rip that stuff away, so you can immedately watch what you pirated. So not only is it cheaper, its actually better than the legitimate stuff. Not to mention the whole region thing. Guess its my own fault for actually wanting to support the film makers though.

5th April 2012, 07:52 AM	#18
Marcus Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 1,840	Originally Posted by Mark6 Months ago I cancelled my cable subscription because it is blatantly not worth $100 a month to me. My family does not watch much TV, and what we do watch we get for free from the web, or for $8 a month from Netflix. This week for the first time since cancelling cable I wanted to watch something not legally available on web (including Netflix) -- Season 2 of "Game of Thrones". I went to HBO Go website, as some ads suggested I could buy the show there. That turned out not to be the case -- once you click on "Game of Thrones episode X", it takes you to a page which sells you complete HBO package. Which I emphatically do not want. After finding that out, I installed a Bit Torrent downloader, and downloaded first and second episodes of Season Two. I would have happily paid HBO five or six dollars per episode -- which would actually bring HBO more money than buying a DVD set after season ends. But HBO is not offering shows a la carte... so screw them. I might do the same thing, if I wasn't an HBO subscriber. I would acknowledge that it was theft, though, no one has a right to their programming, even if it's not marketed in a manner you prefer.

5th April 2012, 07:53 AM	#19
Babbylonian Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Lake Oswego, OR Posts: 4,467	Mark6, you can feel however you want, but the fact that HBO doesn't want to sell you something right away (you know it will be available by other means at some point) doesn't make it right to violate their copyright. HBO has a business model that's worked for them a long time. When it stops working, and when contracts start running out, they'll change. One would think that when their business model supports the production of high-quality television, that should be a reason for consumers to support it, either by purchasing a subscription to their service or buying the shows through legitimate means when they become available in other formats. ETA: You know, the same argument could be used to justify buying illegal DVDs of movies still in theaters: "Hey, I don't want to pay for my whole family to see John Carter in a theater, but I'd buy the DVD if it was available. I guess I'll just have to buy an illegal version until they smarten up."
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5th April 2012, 07:56 AM	#20
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513	Originally Posted by Marcus I might do the same thing, if I wasn't an HBO subscriber. I would acknowledge that it was theft, though, no one has a right to their programming, even if it's not marketed in a manner you prefer. <soapbox> copyright infringement is not theft </soapbox>
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513

5th April 2012, 08:07 AM	#21
NewtonTrino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bothell, WA Posts: 3,782	I think you should be ashamed of yourself IMHO. Ask yourself why there are so few networks doing shows that have the same level of production quality as Game of Thrones. They have a business model they have built so that they can economically make these kinds of shows. It's called driving subscriptions to their network as an overall package. Without that steady income there is no way they could finance stuff like this. How much do you think it costs to make a season of this show? I assume you don't shop at costco either since they require a "subscription". If you don't want to pay, you don't get to play.

5th April 2012, 08:17 AM	#22
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513	Originally Posted by Mark6 Mostly my point is that HBO is being boneheaded in the way it sells content. And yes, I consider what I am doing acceptable. I made an honest effort to buy their product. They made it impossible to do so without "buying the whole steer". And I like the article you linked to. BTW, I never thought to check iTunes. Maybe I will buy the rest of episodes there. If you would clarify your argument of why you feel what you are doing is acceptable, it will probably save us some really bad anaologies in the future From what you have written so far, the clear rebuttal is: The world does not OWE you Season 1 of “Game Of Thrones” in the form you want it at the moment you want it at the price you want to pay for it. If it’s not available under 100% your terms, you have the free-and-clear option of not having it.
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513

5th April 2012, 08:20 AM	#23
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	The FBI notices on DVDs are unskippable, but they are actually only between 10 and 30 seconds long.
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5th April 2012, 08:26 AM	#24
NeilC Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,331	Whilst I'm not for wholesale copyright theft I think it's more complex that just saying people who abused copyright are stealing. If someone watches or listens to something that they'd not have paid for at the price it's on offer then nobody has lost out. The music industry, it seems to me, have EVENTUALLY worked this out and are now starting to get their money by charging a reasonable amount via services like Spotify and Napster. It turns out that a lot of people are happy to pay that sort of money and would rather be legit than download illegally. The previous model of trying to control everything and then suing people for insane amounts of money was not viable. The actions of the RIAA and MPAA have made me lose a lot of sympathy for them and the people they represent. Destroying the lives of people who downloaded some music is a very tawdy thing to do and a sinister example of the confluence of big business and the legal system IMO.
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5th April 2012, 08:27 AM	#25
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513	Originally Posted by Checkmite The FBI notices on DVDs are unskippable, but they are actually only between 10 and 30 seconds long. They are quite skippable - it just requires better firmware than the default firmware on most DVD players. (IOW the firmware has to ignore the UOP flag)
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513

5th April 2012, 08:50 AM	#26
Moon-Spinner Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Within a star too far to dream of Posts: 1,483	Originally Posted by Moon-Spinner A lot of TV shows can be watched on the internet these days, and without even having to torrent them, or doing anything else inappropriate. Just go to Hulu.... or www.cbs... or www.nbc... or www.abc... Oh wow, I just noticed that the browser tried to make my "Suggestions" linkable (because of the preceding www). Of course they go nowhere, and I wasn't attempting to make links, so I apologize if anybody attempted to follow these "Links"

5th April 2012, 08:51 AM	#27
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,701	Originally Posted by Mark6 Months ago I cancelled my cable subscription because it is blatantly not worth $100 a month to me. My family does not watch much TV, and what we do watch we get for free from the web, or for $8 a month from Netflix. This week for the first time since cancelling cable I wanted to watch something not legally available on web (including Netflix) -- Season 2 of "Game of Thrones". I went to HBO Go website, as some ads suggested I could buy the show there. That turned out not to be the case -- once you click on "Game of Thrones episode X", it takes you to a page which sells you complete HBO package. Which I emphatically do not want. After finding that out, I installed a Bit Torrent downloader, and downloaded first and second episodes of Season Two. I would have happily paid HBO five or six dollars per episode -- which would actually bring HBO more money than buying a DVD set after season ends. But HBO is not offering shows a la carte... so screw them. That is a problem, you have to subscribe to HBO to use HBO go. However I hope you are tech savvy, as there are risks with a bit torrent
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

5th April 2012, 09:39 AM	#28
SumDood Muse Join Date: May 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 706	How much would you pay for a subscription for HBO GO? I've got friends who access it with other peoples codes since those with the subscriptions have no need for HBO GO. I think I'd easily pay $20 a month for the service if it just had the TV shows on it. But more importantly: Originally Posted by Mark6 ... and downloaded first and second episodes of Season Two. I would have happily paid HBO five or six dollars per episode... Season 2 Episode 2 is out in torrent land? It doesn't air until this Sunday.
	__________________ All that is necessary for ignorance to triumph is for intelligent men to do nothing.

5th April 2012, 10:29 AM	#29
Babbylonian Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Lake Oswego, OR Posts: 4,467	Originally Posted by SumDood How much would you pay for a subscription for HBO GO? I've got friends who access it with other peoples codes since those with the subscriptions have no need for HBO GO. I think I'd easily pay $20 a month for the service if it just had the TV shows on it. I think they'll set that up once they can include it in their agreements with the cable/satellite providers, if those providers don't offer big enough incentives to keep it linked to their services. It all depends on how their agreements and renewals are set up.
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5th April 2012, 10:43 AM	#30
icerat Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: sweden Posts: 3,130	What's annoying me, and I think virtually encourages piracy, is Facebook, or more specifically, the show producers on Facebook. 80% of Facebook users, including myself, are outside of North America. Like many people I "like" many of the TV shows I watch. What do they do? Constantly tempt and harass me with news about the next (US) episode ... "don't miss it tonight!!" etc etc with trailers and competitions and other news and info. I can wait weeks, or months, until the episode comes to my country. I can visit their website and get "this content not available in your country". Or I can download it illegally and watch it the next day. Hey, they told me not to miss it!
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5th April 2012, 12:45 PM	#31
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,701	Originally Posted by SumDood How much would you pay for a subscription for HBO GO? I've got friends who access it with other peoples codes since those with the subscriptions have no need for HBO GO. I think I'd easily pay $20 a month for the service if it just had the TV shows on it. But more importantly: Season 2 Episode 2 is out in torrent land? It doesn't air until this Sunday. You have to pay for regular HBO first...
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

5th April 2012, 01:18 PM	#32
GlennB Jellied eel and offal fancier Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 8,927	Originally Posted by ehcks And again, they aren't selling it at all to anyone. You are getting the ability to watch the show without paying when they aren't allowing anyone to pay. No one lost anything. I have a lot of sympathy with this p.o.v. although I'm not at all comfortable about the legality of the whole thing. I would happily pay to download BBC TV programs, but can't (afaics). Being outside the UK I can't watch BBC Iplayer. Who loses if I download torrents of BBC progs? It looks like a simple case of a missed opportunity to sell stuff. It's like standing by and letting the oranges fall to the ground and rot, but then complain about theft if somebody actually picks them.

5th April 2012, 01:37 PM	#33
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,175	Originally Posted by GlennB It looks like a simple case of a missed opportunity to sell stuff. It's like standing by and letting the oranges fall to the ground and rot, but then complain about theft if somebody actually picks them. Best analogy so far on this thread, IMO. I would not feel guilty about picking said oranges either. BTW, I tried to find any HBO show (not just Game of Thrones) on iTunes. They must hide them really well. Another great marketing strategy.
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,175	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"

5th April 2012, 01:38 PM	#34
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513	Originally Posted by Mark6 Best analogy so far on this thread, IMO. I would not feel guilty about picking said oranges either. BTW, I tried to find any HBO show (not just Game of Thrones) on iTunes. They must hide them really well. Another great marketing strategy. ? http://itunes.apple.com/us/tv-season...-1/id482730236 took me three seconds maybe....
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5th April 2012, 01:41 PM	#35
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513	Originally Posted by GlennB It looks like a simple case of a missed opportunity to sell stuff. It's like standing by and letting the oranges fall to the ground and rot, but then complain about theft if somebody actually picks them. So you have a right to someones property if, in your opinion, it will otherwise go to waste ? I don't think I understand the analogy. What is rotting ?
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513

5th April 2012, 02:00 PM	#36
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,175	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis ? http://itunes.apple.com/us/tv-season...-1/id482730236 took me three seconds maybe.... Odd. But thank you!
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,175	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"