Could the Berg video be a fraud?

[shanek]

I almost didn't post this, but before I completely dismiss it out of hand, I thought I'd get the input of people who may be more knowledgeable about this than I am.

There are a couple of websites claiming that the Berg decapitation video is a fake. They seem to be about on the same level as the 9/11 conspiracy videos, but although I can debunk those with my video and graphic experience, I don't have the medical or military knowledge needed to debunk this.

Also, I haven't seen the video. And I don't WANT to, thank you very much.

Anyway, on with the claims:

http://www.tehrantimes.com/Descripti...&Cat=2&Num=029

Quote:

La Voz de Aztlan obtained a copy of the video showing the beheading of American Nick Berg of Philadelphia and immediately something very odd was readily apparent. Not only were the purported screams of Nick Berg not in synchrony with the decapitation but there was also a total lack of blood spurting out as his jugular and other veins and arteries were being cut.

We forwarded the video to… a surgeon and forensic expert in Mexico City for his expert opinion. He wrote back and commented… that there is no way that the individual in the video was alive and his heart pumping while his neck was being cut. The doctor adds that in these cases, while the heart is pumping, cutting a person’s artery in the neck would cause copious amounts of blood to spurt all over the immediate environment. He says that in his opinion the video is a fraud.

Okay, hardly an unbiased source. But where did they get this information? Apparently from here:

http://www.aztlan.net/fake_video.htm

Here, the name of the doctor is given. (Why was it excised in the above report?) Anyway:

Quote:

We forwarded the video to Doctor Raul Castro Guevara, a surgeon and forensic expert in Mexico City for his expert opinion. He wrote back and commented, "No hay manera que el individuo en el video estaba vivo y su corazon funcionando cuando le estaban cortando la cabeza. En estos casos, el corazon impela sangre con gran presion, y se corta las arterias del cuello, hay una gran cantidad de sangre que salpica por todos lados. En mi opinion el video es un fraude."

Doctor Raul Castro Guevara is saying that there is no way that the individual in the video was alive and his heart pumping while his neck was being cut. The doctor adds that in these cases, while the heart is pumping, cutting a person's artery in the neck, would cause copious amounts of blood to spurt all over the immediate environment. He says that in his opinion the video is a fraud.

Anyone know who this surgeon is? The only results I found in a Google search involve him and this direct claim. Is he right about the blood? Would blood spurt out as he described, and did it on the video?

Now, this page:

http://www.aztlan.net/berg_abu_ghraib_video.htm

has some stills which they claim show that this video was actually filmed in the American prison where the Iraqi prisoners were tortured. The first pieces of evidence aren't very compelling: Berg is sitting in a plastic chair similar to the one in the prison videos (but how many of those chairs were manufactured?), and he's wearing an orange jumpsuit (impossible for Al Qaeda or whomever killed him to get?).

They then claim that an American military cap is in view very briefly in one of the frames. Honestly, I don't see it, but then I probably wouldn't know a military cap if you smothered me with it. Anyone see it? Anything at all to this?

Quote:

The five so call terrorists are phoney. The one on the extreme right in Photo 6 is pudgy and is wearing very clean tennis shoes. This will not be the case with an Al queda fighter. Also, Photo 6 shows that at least three of them are wearing bullet proof vests. Has anyone seen Al queda members wearing heavy and cumbersome bullet proof vests? Look at the garb that all five are wearing. They look like Halloween costumes.

Any of this make sense? Or does it seem to you like they're talking out both sides of their collective mouth?

Berg apparently was killed, was decapitated. Are these people trying to say that Berg died innocently somehow and the Americans decapitated him post mortem in order to, I guess, whip up more support for the War on Terrorism (which has been waning of late)? And is there not one anonymous whistleblower to this event the way there was with the leaked photos? Seems to me that quite a few people would have to know about this fake, if it really is a fake.

Every instinct inside me tells me this is bogus, a pathetic conspiracy theory. But, as I said, I don't have the knowledge to debunk this properly, and since that's pretty much what this forum is all about, I thought I'd put it out here for others to hack away at it.

[Skeptic]

There are also websites claiming the moon landing is a fraud.

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
There are also websites claiming the moon landing is a fraud.

I think thats a "your another" logical fallicy (there are also websites saying that 1+1=2 so your point is worthless).

I havn't seen the vidio and can't coment except to there are past cases of groups decapting people afeter they were dead but not on vidio.

There is also the small matter that they found the body so surely anything odd would have come out.

[Reginald]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
There are also websites claiming the moon landing is a fraud.

There are. But distasteful as it is, we should question the video with the same rigour that we apply to evidence that does not support any cause we may subscribe to.

[Ed]

I actually have read up on this. If you decapitate a live person you get a ton of blood. The executioners in France, at least the guy whoo grabbed the condemmed's head and pulled it taught so that the blade cut the neck cleanly wore a rubber apron to keep as much oof the blood off of him as possible. That is also why the straw on the scaffold for Anne Boylen and Mary Queen of Scots.

n.b. After a fair bit of thought, I am convinced that the head will be concious for a bit, if the cut is not too high.

[Rob Lister]

I just watched the video. I wasn't going to but I felt I should see the evidence first hand, or as first hand as the grainy images allow.

I'll rate my confidence on a scale of one to ten where 1=doubful, 10=certainty

Were his muscle movements/struggling consistant with that of a bound and contrained man having his head 'sawed' off? Yes = 9

Was the blood 'spilled' consistant with that of a pumping heart? Yes = 9

Unless you really, really need to see for yourself, I recommend you forgo the video.

[geni]

The theory in it's full "glory"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Be...iracy_theories

[Kevin_Lowe]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rob Lister
I'll rate my confidence on a scale of one to ten where 1=doubful, 10=certainty

Were his muscle movements/struggling consistant with that of a bound and contrained man having his head 'sawed' off? Yes = 9

Was the blood 'spilled' consistant with that of a pumping heart? Yes = 9

If you don't mind my asking, do you have any particular experience that enables you to make the second assessment with confidence?

Because I don't have any relevant experience at all, but from what I've read in years past a severed neck artery squirts blood very vigorously indeed. (Sorry, it's gruesome but it's relevant). You'd expect a lot of flying blood, and distinctive spatter patterns on the walls even at some distance. You'd expect the killer to be very messy by the end of the business.

The video is of atrocious quality, but the lack of blood seemed inconsistent with the forensic trivia I picked up in my youth.

The movement is also consistent with associates wiggling a corpse, at least to my untrained eye.

I must say I still have no idea what to make of the whole Berg business. It's just odd and unpleasant.

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe
I must say I still have no idea what to make of the whole Berg business. It's just odd and unpleasant.

If for some reason the exicution turns out to be fake the most likly explanation was that whoever captured him had already killed him (either during the capture or latter) and then decided to make a big show.

[wjousts]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed
n.b. After a fair bit of thought, I am convinced that the head will be concious for a bit, if the cut is not too high.

That reminds me of a story I read a while back but I can't for the live of me remember who it was. Supposedly a French nobleman and scientist about to be executed during the revolution had decided with a friend of his, who would be in the crowd, to attempt to continue blinking his eyes after the execution so his friend could determine how long he remained alive after his head was seperated from his body. If I recall correctly he managed a few blinks after the blade fell. Pretty gruesome.

[Rob Lister]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe


If you don't mind my asking, do you have any particular experience that enables you to make the second assessment with confidence?

Because I don't have any relevant experience at all, but from what I've read in years past a severed neck artery squirts blood very vigorously indeed. (Sorry, it's gruesome but it's relevant). You'd expect a lot of flying blood, and distinctive spatter patterns on the walls even at some distance. You'd expect the killer to be very messy by the end of the business.

The video is of atrocious quality, but the lack of blood seemed inconsistent with the forensic trivia I picked up in my youth.

The movement is also consistent with associates wiggling a corpse, at least to my untrained eye.

I must say I still have no idea what to make of the whole Berg business. It's just odd and unpleasant.

I do not have any medical training beyond somewhat extensive battlefield first aid. No relevant experience whatsoever...thankfully.

[Rob Lister]

Quote:

Originally posted by geni


If for some reason the exicution turns out to be fake the most likly explanation was that whoever captured him had already killed him (either during the capture or latter) and then decided to make a big show.

Even given my confidence factor of nine for both the movement and the bleeding, you may be right. There was a large gap of time between the first part of the video (where he was alive with a confidence factor of 10) and the actual beheading. It's possible they killed him first, but I don't think so.

[pgwenthold]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed
I actually have read up on this. If you decapitate a live person you get a ton of blood. The executioners in France, at least the guy whoo grabbed the condemmed's head and pulled it taught so that the blade cut the neck cleanly wore a rubber apron to keep as much oof the blood off of him as possible. That is also why the straw on the scaffold for Anne Boylen and Mary Queen of Scots.

n.b. After a fair bit of thought, I am convinced that the head will be concious for a bit, if the cut is not too high.

Wasn't it Lavoisier who had made an arrangement with his executioner that he would try to wink or blink after his head was chopped off? He didn't do it.

[richardm]

Just a couple of things.. why wouldn't an Al Qaeda fighter be pudgy and wearing trainers? I know there is a tendency to view Iraq as a primitive backwater, but they do actually have shops there. And what's this chap on the left wearing?



Those aren't bulletproof vests they're wearing in the pictures. They're a lot more like the vests you'd see here .

There is blood all over the place, although the video has been so compressed it's not necessarily obvious. And as has been pointed out in the other thread - for a dead guy, Berg certainly does a lot of struggling.

The only bit of the video that struck me as odd is at the very start where they push him on his side and he just rolls over like a tipped cow. None of the conspiracy theorists seem to have mentioned that yet, although I'd have thought it would support their contention.

[pgwenthold]

Quote:

Originally posted by wjousts


That reminds me of a story I read a while back but I can't for the live of me remember who it was. Supposedly a French nobleman and scientist about to be executed during the revolution had decided with a friend of his, who would be in the crowd, to attempt to continue blinking his eyes after the execution so his friend could determine how long he remained alive after his head was seperated from his body. If I recall correctly he managed a few blinks after the blade fell. Pretty gruesome.

It was Levoisier. See above.

I don't think he did anything, but I don't know for sure.

[Kerberos]

Quote:

Originally posted by pgwenthold


Wasn't it Lavoisier who had made an arrangement with his executioner that he would try to wink or blink after his head was chopped off? He didn't do it.

Perhaps he was distracted.

[wjousts]

Quote:

Originally posted by pgwenthold


It was Levoisier. See above.

I don't think he did anything, but I don't know for sure.

That was it. Thanks.

[pgwenthold]

Quote:

Originally posted by wjousts


That was it. Thanks.

I just found a website that claims he blinked for 15 seconds, but that the entire report is suspect.

It concludes that the head loses conciousness in 2 - 3 seconds. Reports of heads responding after that are attributed to the same things that make animals twitch after being beheaded (aka running around like a chicken with it's head cut off)

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe

Because I don't have any relevant experience at all, but from what I've read in years past a severed neck artery squirts blood very vigorously indeed. (Sorry, it's gruesome but it's relevant).

But from the way they got at the neck, it would be the jugular vein that got cut first. I'd expect there to be copious amounts of blood, but not necessarily squirting, especially if the vein was cut in one go. A bit like putting your thumb over the end of a hose. If you leave a small gap, it will spray out. If you remove your thumb altogether, it will be a much slower flow. I'm not sure how much pressure blood is under in real terms, but I wonder if the lack of squirting is not a red herring.

[Rob Lister]

Even the grainy video showed quite a bit of blood pooling on the floor. Much more I think than what you'd get without a beating heart. That was my basis for believing he was alive at the time.

[wjousts]

Quote:

Originally posted by pgwenthold


Wasn't it Lavoisier who had made an arrangement with his executioner that he would try to wink or blink after his head was chopped off? He didn't do it.

Just found this in the Journal of Chemical Education

Jensen, William B. J. Chem. Educ. 2004 81 629.

Quote:

The story has been circulating on the Internet and among
various colleagues that Lavoisier made an agreement with
the French mathematician, Comte Joseph-Louis Lagrange
(1736–1813), shortly before being guillotined, that he
would blink his eyes if he retained consciousness after being
beheaded, and that he was executed because of his revolutionary
scientific views. Is there any truth to these stories?

The answer to the question claims that it is an urban myth that seems to have started with a Discovery Channel special about the guillotine a few years ago.
Executions were rapid with heads falling into a common sack and Lagrange would not be able to get close enough to perform the experiment since the guillotine was usually surrounded by gendarmes.
BTW, Lavoisier was not executed because of his scientific views but because of his envolvement as one of the hated tax collectors.

[Fordama]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rob Lister
Even the grainy video showed quite a bit of blood pooling on the floor. Much more I think than what you'd get without a beating heart. That was my basis for believing he was alive at the time.

It's interesting in that this myth that there wasn't a lot of blood is circulating about. I watched the video and there was plenty of blood.

I don't reccomend that people watch this video--it will be disturbing to most. However, it really doesn't leave much doubt at all that Berg was alive during this. He struggles. Dead guys don't struggle very well at all.

While there could be a ton of questions regarding who did the killing, there was a killing and one could see it if one has the desire.

Fordama

[richardm]

I suspect that a lot of these conspiracy theories are born out of a sense of disbelief that such a thing could happen. But let's face it - Berg is not the first person to die by having their throat cut. There is no good reason to assume they would kill him first out of some sense of decency. There is no reason to assume that the Army or CIA did it to make Al Qaeda look bad.

It's just one more dreadful thing in a long series of dreadful things.

[Kerberos]

I haven't watched the video and I have no intention to so I have no way of judging any of this, but I've heard that a vein that's wholly severed bleeds less, than one that's only partially severed. That could explain why there might be less blodd than if just had his throat cut.

[Matabiri]

Quote:

We forwarded the video to Doctor Raul Castro Guevara, a surgeon and forensic expert in Mexico City for his expert opinion. He wrote back and commented, "No hay manera que el individuo en el video estaba vivo y su corazon funcionando cuando le estaban cortando la cabeza. En estos casos, el corazon impela sangre con gran presion, y se corta las arterias del cuello, hay una gran cantidad de sangre que salpica por todos lados. En mi opinion el video es un fraude."

Are there any native Spanish speakers around? To my completely untrained eye that seems a little convoluted, as if it's been produced by an automatic translator.

Quote:

But from the way they got at the neck, it would be the jugular vein that got cut first. I'd expect there to be copious amounts of blood, but not necessarily squirting, especially if the vein was cut in one go. A bit like putting your thumb over the end of a hose. If you leave a small gap, it will spray out. If you remove your thumb altogether, it will be a much slower flow. I'm not sure how much pressure blood is under in real terms, but I wonder if the lack of squirting is not a red herring.

Veins don't pump - they take blood back to the heart. You're thinking of the carotid artery, which is deeper in the neck than the jugular.

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri

Veins don't pump - they take blood back to the heart. You're thinking of the carotid artery, which is deeper in the neck than the jugular.

No, I was thinking of the jugular vein. It is at the side of the neck where the cutting starts. I appreciate that veins don't pump, but there must be some pressure in there. In any case, it would only support the contention that you wouldn't see squirting.

[Matabiri]

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm
No, I was thinking of the jugular vein. It is at the side of the neck where the cutting starts. I appreciate that veins don't pump, but there must be some pressure in there. In any case, it would only support the contention that you wouldn't see squirting.

Fair enough; sorry about that. According to this* venous pressure would seem to be equivalent to about 10cm head of water (= ~0.01 bar) in a healthy adult, although it's not too clear. Darn medics.

* Subscription only, but not very well set up, so that you can hit "stop loading" at the right point and read the article anyway.

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri


Fair enough; sorry about that. According to this* venous pressure would seem to be equivalent to about 10cm head of water (= ~0.01 bar) in a healthy adult, although it's not too clear. Darn medics.

Okay, so, very low pressure - so we wouldn't expect to see squirting if the jugular was cut, but by the time the carotid arteries were reached (and IIRC they are quite well protected by tendons), the blood pressure could have dropped sufficiently that there would be no spraying there either; another point rebuffed.

Grim stuff though, isn't it?

[Samus]

Another point to ponder: Berg's facial expressions.

I watched the video once, and once was quite enough. As they were pushing him down to cut his head off, I believe he had a different look on his face than he did sitting up.

On the other hand, I don't recall him moving at all during the 30+ seconds the masked man was reading his document. To sit perfectly still in that position for that period of time doesn't seem realistic. Anyone remember if he blinked or fidgeted?

Also, as was mentioned, the scream was not in sync with the cutting, unless his scream was due to being forced to the floor, and he died very quickly during the actual decapitation.

The poor video quality makes amateur analysis difficult.

I'm willing to accept that he was killed by other means shortly before the videotaped decapitation, as evident by an expert's assertion that there wasn't enough blood spilled. I don't purport expertise in executions.

I would, however, have a hard time believing the U.S. would have staged this.

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by Commander Cool
Also, as was mentioned, the scream was not in sync with the cutting

Okay, I don't want to watch the video again. This has been said a couple of times. In what way was it not in sync?

[Matabiri]

Quote:

Originally posted by Commander Cool
Also, as was mentioned, the scream was not in sync with the cutting, unless his scream was due to being forced to the floor, and he died very quickly during the actual decapitation.

As soon as the trachea's damaged he's going to have trouble screaming. And I'd suspect that with the quantities of pain and shock a decapitation would cause, there'd be no particular incentive to time your screams to each new cut.

Also the sitting very still. How do you act if you know you're going to die, and there's nothing you can do? Try and go out with dignity?

(I haven't seen the video, and don't want to. Nor have I ever been decapitated. All opinions are guesswork.)

[Fordama]

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri


Also the sitting very still. How do you act if you know you're going to die, and there's nothing you can do? Try and go out with dignity?

I don't think he thought he was going to die. He seemed startled when the assault started. He certainly struggled.

Fordama

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by pgwenthold


Wasn't it Lavoisier who had made an arrangement with his executioner that he would try to wink or blink after his head was chopped off? He didn't do it.

Yeah. There were a number of medical men that made arrangements with the condemmed at various points. The question does have a certain goulish fasination. One guy actually carted the head to his lab and shocked it. Got winks and such. Point is you can do without oxygen for 3 min. prior to losing conciousness. It takes about 10 until irreparable brain damage, at normal temperatures. The O2 requirements are a lot lower at low temperatures hence the "miricle" saves of people under ice.

A head would not go for 3 minutes since there is no blood circulation. So how long would one have to consider one's surroundings? Less than a minute perhaps? I'd guess less than 30 seconds. You'd know, though.

[Pablo]

[quote]Originally posted by Matabiri
[b]

Are there any native Spanish speakers around? To my completely untrained eye that seems a little convoluted, as if it's been produced by an automatic translator.



That caught my eye too. However, I don't think it was written by an automatic translator, it is far too coherent for that. Plus , the choice of words is far more accurate than I've come to expect from such devices.

However, the snippet is far from being perfect Spanish. Between brackets are included my corrections to the original:

"No hay manera [de] que el individuo en el video estaba [estuviese] vivo y su corazon [corazón] funcionando cuando le estaban cortando la cabeza. En estos casos, el corazon [corazón] impela [impele] sangre con gran presion [presión], y [si se] se corta [cortan] las arterias del cuello, hay una gran cantidad de sangre que salpica por todos lados. En mi opinion [opinión] el video es un fraude."

The lack of graphic accents might be due to the person citing the good doctor overseeing them or not being able to produce them in his keyboard. I would say they rule out the automatic translators which, if anything, are ortographically accurate. The conjugation errors, however, are of a different nature, and might imply that a non-native actually wrote that text.

Bear in mind, however, that I speak "European" Spanish, and that there are a fair amount of differences between how we feel a sentence to be correct and the Mexican take on the same subject.

That wasn't very helpful, actually. Sorry.

[shanek]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
There are also websites claiming the moon landing is a fraud.

Yes, but I know how to debunk those. I don't have the information needed to debunk this one.

[Beerina]

3 minutes for unconsciousness? 10 minutes for brain damage? My own long-memorized factoids were 10 seconds for unconsciousness (not 3 minutes, or 3 seconds, also quotes), and 4 minutes for brain damage (CPR course.)

Can someone look up actual values? If it were 3 minutes, there must have been some guillotine riders who weren't knocked out by the shock; hence there would be all kinds of folklore built up around teasing the head after it were cut off. There aren't, hence I doubt that number.

As for Discovery channel bringing up the "blink if I can" legend, well, I think it's a lot older than that. Anyone remember the execrable movie Wolfen from the early 1980's? In it, they quote a similar legend that the head lives on for some number of seconds, and the mouth can be seen forming words. Of course, at the end the bad guy gets his head swatted off by a wolf creature, and it's on the sidewalk mouthing words.

[Kerberos]

Quote:

Originally posted by Beerina
3 minutes for unconsciousness? 10 minutes for brain damage? My own long-memorized factoids were 10 seconds for unconsciousness (not 3 minutes, or 3 seconds, also quotes), and 4 minutes for brain damage (CPR course.)

Ed's number is for when you're deprived of oxygen because you're unable to breathe due to, for exampel, choking on something. Your numbers are for when your brain is deprived of oxygen due to, for exampel, strangulation.

[Skeptical Greg]

Maybe some real medico will jump in here and give us the lowdown, but I believe there is more going on than just oxygen deprivation to the brain when the head is removed from the body.

I believe the severing of the spinal cord and the blood supply at the same time causes a pretty quick ( few seconds ) shut down of conciousness.. Whereas one or the other by itself, might not make it happen so fast..

[Troll]

I can't say for sure. I've seen one decapitated guy in my life and that was rather speedy and a clean cut and it produced much more blood than I saw watching the full video. But I'm not an expert.

I will say that given his past, his dad, and the fact that he was all alone reminds me extremely of Kevin Spacey's The Life of David Gale.

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by Beerina
3 minutes for unconsciousness? 10 minutes for brain damage? My own long-memorized factoids were 10 seconds for unconsciousness (not 3 minutes, or 3 seconds, also quotes), and 4 minutes for brain damage (CPR course.)

Can someone look up actual values? If it were 3 minutes, there must have been some guillotine riders who weren't knocked out by the shock; hence there would be all kinds of folklore built up around teasing the head after it were cut off. There aren't, hence I doubt that number.

As for Discovery channel bringing up the "blink if I can" legend, well, I think it's a lot older than that. Anyone remember the execrable movie Wolfen from the early 1980's? In it, they quote a similar legend that the head lives on for some number of seconds, and the mouth can be seen forming words. Of course, at the end the bad guy gets his head swatted off by a wolf creature, and it's on the sidewalk mouthing words.

How long can you hold your breath? The 10 min number was from a Neurosurgeon in a course I took at Mt. Sinai. We had just seen a guy get hiss anterior communicating artery severed and as luck would have it he had a congetital malformation of the posterrior. Hence the discussion afterward.