"But Seriously, Prostitution Is Not Sex Slavery"

[Mark6]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

No, I was referring to the pimps, as it's not legal in the country yet, if she was a hooker there would probably be some ratty pimp involved using drugs as a coercion. I am not referring to an imaginary legalized prostitution.

Actually, you were so referring:

Originally Posted by LogicFail

Really? I can't.... Honestly, If I had a daughter and she was a legal prostitute. I would probably end up in prison dude. Enraged wouldn't be the word.

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by Mark6

Actually, you were so referring:

typo, my bad i will edit it, as that isn't what i was referring to i meant to type illegal, then changed my mind and thought i erased it all.

[Mark6]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

typo, my bad i will edit it, as that isn't what i was referring to i meant to type illegal, then changed my mind and thought i erased it all.

Fair enough. My response (actually, response to Bookitty responding to you) deleted.

[BravesFan]

I have a friend who works at the women's shelter near here (an ex GF) so I hear these stories all the time about the prostitutes coming in and out, getting beat up, meth'd out or worse (if that's possible...ick) then returning to the environment the very next day. I think it's just a terrible lifestyle and as I know that legalization would improve the working conditions and such, I still can't see how any self respecting person would want to be a !@#k doll for money. Unless, they were supremely narcissistic or money drunk.

Like i said, maybe I'm old fashioned, and maybe I have seen enough coked up strippers being slutty backstage in my time as a musician to just have a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to the "sex worker" lifestyle..... It hardly requires everyone jumping down my throat about it.

[bumlet5]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

Really? I can't.... Honestly, If I had a daughter and she was a prostitute. I would probably end up in prison dude. Enraged wouldn't be the word.

What if you had a daughter who chose to be a sex worker of her own accord, in a society where it was fully legal and she was medically safe? Safety laws in place, she used protection, no coersion of any kind, no drugs, no pimp, she knew everything about what she was doing (including risks) and took care of herself. Would you still disapprove due to your own bias?

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by bumlet5

What if you had a daughter who chose to be a sex worker of her own accord, in a society where it was fully legal and she was medically safe? Safety laws in place, she used protection, no coersion of any kind, no drugs, no pimp, she knew everything about what she was doing (including risks) and took care of herself. Would you still disapprove due to your own bias?

i would feel like I failed as a parent. i would feel like that any sense of morality had been lost on her. I would not be a happy camper. (and really, what father would say "My daughter Number 1 prostitute in all of Kazahkstan!!")

i don't have kids so I'm just guessing......


ETA: why is not wanting your daughter to be a whore a "bias" I wouldn't want my son to be a bully either, even if they paid him for it.

[BenBurch]

It is very sad when people are so very narrow-minded.

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

It is very sad when people are so very narrow-minded.

It's very sad when other people are judgmental of someone elses morality without knowing them. Equally narrow minded.

You don't like my point of view to the point of attacking me, i haven't attacked any of you and called you names.

Who's the open minded one now. people have differing opinions and perspectives and morality based on their particular life events and experiences and raising. I find it elitist as hell for you to project your views onto me and besmirch my value system because it dares to disagree with yours.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

i would feel like I failed as a parent. i would feel like that any sense of morality had been lost on her. I would not be a happy camper. (and really, what father would say "My daughter Number 1 prostitute in all of Kazahkstan!!")

Why are you equaling prostitution done in a consent manner, with all the regulations of safety and no pimp and no forcing of any kind, with being immoral?

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Why are you equaling prostitution done in a consent manner, with all the regulations of safety and no pimp and no forcing of any kind, with being immoral?

because i think prostitution is gross. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

am the only one in this thread that doesn't frequent hookers so is rationalizing their own behavior or something?

[bumlet5]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

i would feel like I failed as a parent. i would feel like that any sense of morality had been lost on her. I would not be a happy camper. (and really, what father would say "My daughter Number 1 prostitute in all of Kazahkstan!!")

i don't have kids so I'm just guessing......


ETA: why is not wanting your daughter to be a whore a "bias" I wouldn't want my son to be a bully either, even if they paid him for it.

That's better than stating you'd be in prison.

From what I've seen in this thread, what I laid out is all anyone here is arguing for: legal status (including legal recourse) and the ability to do it safely.

Instead of having to worry about a john beating them up and not being able to go to the police because it's and illegal profession, they would be able to put him in jail. Instead of being all coked up so often, they could be educated and choose to do it safely. Instead of being abused and drugged by a pimp that they need for physical protection, they could have business partners.

Of course abuse of people and power will happen- it happens somewhere in pretty much every profession- but the difference is that if a prostitute is abused now she can't do anything about it.

Regardless of your personal icked-out-ness, this happens and it needs to stop.

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by bumlet5

That's better than stating you'd be in prison.

From what I've seen in this thread, what I laid out is all anyone here is arguing for: legal status (including legal recourse) and the ability to do it safely.

Instead of having to worry about a john beating them up and not being able to go to the police because it's and illegal profession, they would be able to put him in jail. Instead of being all coked up so often, they could be educated and choose to do it safely. Instead of being abused and drugged by a pimp that they need for physical protection, they could have business partners.

Of course abuse of people and power will happen- it happens somewhere in pretty much every profession- but the difference is that if a prostitute is abused now she can't do anything about it.

Regardless of your personal icked-out-ness, this happens and it needs to stop.

Oh I agree (and have stated this several times) I think it SHOULD be legalized in the USA and regulated and taxed...etc It's for the greater good for those who choose to get into the bidness.

That doesn't mean I can't have negative feelings about the bidness. I also have negative feelings about my local Board of Alderman, but we need them too. (different than icky, my feelings towards them can best be summed up as a word that violates forum rules but rhymes with brother duckers)

[bumlet5]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

Oh I agree (and have stated this several times) I think it SHOULD be legalized in the USA and regulated and taxed...etc It's for the greater good for those who choose to get into the bidness.

That doesn't mean I can't have negative feelings about the bidness. I also have negative feelings about my local Board of Alderman, but we need them too. (different than icky, my feelings towards them can best be summed up as a word that violates forum rules but rhymes with brother duckers)

In which case I think most people don't understand your feelings of icked-out-ness about the legal, more sanitary version. To others, your statement is similar to "I don't care if there are gay people and they can get married for all I care, so long as they don't hold hands or kiss in front of me. I think it's icky." (please keep in mind that this is an analogy)

Also, it is a bias. Not wanting your daughter to be a "whore" is like not wanting your son to be a "fag".

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

It's very sad when other people are judgmental of someone elses morality without knowing them. Equally narrow minded.

You don't like my point of view to the point of attacking me, i haven't attacked any of you and called you names.

Who's the open minded one now. people have differing opinions and perspectives and morality based on their particular life events and experiences and raising. I find it elitist as hell for you to project your views onto me and besmirch my value system because it dares to disagree with yours.

In haven't attacked you OR called you names.

I do reject your supposed "morality", as it appears to be evil re-labeled.

[BravesFan]

I wouldn't want my son to be gay either, I know some gay folks, they put up with lots of crap from society at large that nobody should want their child to go through....


I find it gross because it's having random strange people screwing you for money. it's a reprehensible occupational strategy IMO. I wouldn't visit a prostitute, i wouldn't date an ex-prostitute. I think that it's a marginal occupation. I don't think that just because someone CHOOSES to be on the margins they should be celebrated as a hero. (and we are talking about folks who have chosen to be legal prostitutes right?)

I think women should be trying to maximize their potential,. not laying on their backs and taking the easy way out. I just don't think women should perpetuate the stereotype of sex objectivism either.

Oh , to hell with it, everyone here seems to think I have a problem because I dare to think prostitution is a gross occupation that besmirches the character of women. Well, that's your perogative I guess. Pardon me for having the nerve to express my personal opinion.

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

In haven't attacked you OR called you names.

I do reject your supposed "morality", as it appears to be evil re-labeled.

define evil and explain to me how what i have said is evil.

i think that perhaps your liberalness has made you closed minded.

[BenBurch]

You'd murder somebody over your daughter's choice of career. That is evil. No argument needed.

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

You'd murder somebody over your daughter's choice of career. That is evil. No argument needed.

So you are telling me that if you discovered your daughter working as a street prostitute under the wing of a pimp and addicted to drugs that you wouldn't be willing to fight to get your daughter back?

That's the wimpiest most pathetic thing I have ever heard.

[bumlet5]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

So you are telling me that if you discovered your daughter working as a street prostitute under the wing of a pimp and addicted to drugs that you wouldn't be willing to fight to get your daughter back?

That's the wimpiest most pathetic thing I have ever heard.

That's not what he said. He said

Originally Posted by BenBurch

your daughter's choice of career.

[BravesFan]

By asserting that my intent to save a hypothetical daughter at all costs (and note I never said murder, I said I would probably end up in prison, they made the jump to murder)from the scourge of illegal prostitution is evil, is he not then asserting that he would do no such thing? (unless of course he is claiming he too would be "evil")

Seriously, real world here people, this isn't math. I would gather that most fathers who had the capabilities to extract their daughter from that situation would use all their powers to do so.

If you notice my reference in the prison scenario was illegal prostitution not legal brothels. (that was discussed above)

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

The entire statement I made involving investment bankers , this forum spends countless hours besmirching all manner of peopl who work in the investment world as immoral , evil swine. But that's okay. I say hookers are gross and I'm Adolf friggin Hitler. That's hypocrisy sir/madam.

I do not think you understand what 'hypocrisy means.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Why are you equaling prostitution done in a consent manner, with all the regulations of safety and no pimp and no forcing of any kind, with being immoral?

Originally Posted by LogicFail

because i think prostitution is gross. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Just because you, personally, find something to be gross, doesn't make it immoral and certainly doesn't give you the right to judge others. Is that so hard for you to understand?

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

I have a friend who works at the women's shelter near here (an ex GF) so I hear these stories all the time about the prostitutes coming in and out, getting beat up, meth'd out or worse (if that's possible...ick) then returning to the environment the very next day. I think it's just a terrible lifestyle and as I know that legalization would improve the working conditions and such, I still can't see how any self respecting person would want to be a !@#k doll for money. Unless, they were supremely narcissistic or money drunk.

Like i said, maybe I'm old fashioned, and maybe I have seen enough coked up strippers being slutty backstage in my time as a musician to just have a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to the "sex worker" lifestyle..... It hardly requires everyone jumping down my throat about it.

.
How many of the gals are actually unemployable due to their lack of cognitive capabilities, and need PA which they screw up also, to stay alive?
I know a few of those.

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

It's very sad when other people are judgmental of someone elses morality without knowing them. Equally narrow minded.

And yet you are judgemental of the morality of prostiitutes.
Not that is hypocrisy

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

because i think prostitution is gross. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

am the only one in this thread that doesn't frequent hookers so is rationalizing their own behavior or something?

You are probably the only one who thinks it is impossible to support the rights of prostitutes without employing them.

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Just because you, personally, find something to be gross, doesn't make it immoral and certainly doesn't give you the right to judge others. Is that so hard for you to understand?

I have a right to judge others to my hearts content. As do you!! See how great freedom is?

Anyone who tries to state that they don't judge others is fooling themselves.

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

And yet you are judgemental of the morality of prostiitutes.
Not that is hypocrisy

I notice you skipped the part where he called me narrow minded because it suits you. I was pointing out that he was narrow minded to my position.(which he clearly is)


Why is it that all of you think that prostitution is a fine and just occupation?

i swear, some of you people have the silliest concepts of life, I wonder if any of you leave your basements.

Is it so hard to think that someone can find something, morally reprehensible yet still champion it's legality? (it's my same position on abortion, I think using it as causal birth control is a terrible thing, yet i champion it's legality).

But no, I get called evil for having some moral fiber and backbone. I find it pathetic, and I find much of said dismissal of my position on this issue to be of weak people. Grow a little backbone. If you can find it.

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

I have a right to judge others to my hearts content. As do you!! See how great freedom is?

Anyone who tries to state that they don't judge others is fooling themselves.

Of course you have a right to judge others. Nobody has suggested otherwise.
But you do seem to think others should not judge you.

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

I notice you skipped the part where he called me narrow minded because it suits you. I was pointing out that he was narrow minded to my position.(which he clearly is)


Why is it that all of you think that prostitution is a fine and just occupation?

i swear, some of you people have the silliest concepts of life, I wonder if any of you leave your basements.

Is it so hard to think that someone can find something, morally reprehensible yet still champion it's legality? (it's my same position on abortion, I think using it as causal birth control is a terrible thing, yet i champion it's legality).

But no, I get called evil for having some moral fiber and backbone. I find it pathetic, and I find much of said dismissal of my position on this issue to be of weak people. Grow a little backbone. If you can find it.

My post was to illustrate your hypocrisy.
Now you are off on a rant.

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

And yet you are judgemental of the morality of prostiitutes.
Not that is hypocrisy

I would say that my statement above in regards to the treatment of the investment bankers as to the treatment of hookers clearly depicts a hypocrisy.

it's fine on this very forum to ask for the death of the investment bankers as "immoral swine" who ruined the economy on a quest for greed. yet it seems fine to champion the right of a prostitute to sell her body on a quest for greed.

That's a hypocrisy.


Look, I'm just sick of being attacked because you differ with me about prostitution. I might understand If I was on here defending the illegality of it or saying they should be shot or hung or whatever, but I'm not. i have defended the need for it to be legalized ,controlled and taxed. The fact that I may find the occupation icky shouldn't give the mob the right to call me ****** evil.

it's got my southern dander up and I am in serious angry,fighting mode. I hate the internet sometimes...

[luchog]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

The entire statement I made involving investment bankers , this forum spends countless hours besmirching all manner of peopl who work in the investment world as immoral , evil swine. But that's okay. I say hookers are gross and I'm Adolf friggin Hitler. That's hypocrisy sir/madam.

False equivalency. These are completely unrelated issues.

And even if they were related, you haven't provided the slightest shred of evidence of said hypocrisy. I've not seen any, aside from a few of the hardcore socialists engage in such calumny, a large number of whom are also sex-negative radicals as firmly and irrationally opposed to prostitution as you are. Certainly not from anyone in this thread you are accusing of hypcrisy. This is just another smokescreen to distract from the fact that you have notion rational to add to this discussion.

And "gross" is pure and simple bigotry. It's not based on evidence, it's not based on rational analysis. It's a purely an emotional response, and as such, has no place in a rational discussion.

You don't seem capable of addressing the issue that all of what is truly harmful about prostitution is an artifact of its very illegality. You're too lost in your emotionalistic revulsion to consider the clear and present fact that criminalization does far more harm than mere prostitution ever could.

Originally Posted by LogicFail

Look, I'm just sick of being attacked because you differ with me about prostitution.

What a disingenuous load of crap. You're not being attacked because you "differ" with anyone; you're being attacked because you're attacking others, and insisting that your irrational emotionalism is right and proper and holy; while flatly denigrating not only those looking for rational solutions to the problems involved with criminalized prostitution. Not to mention your bare-faced hypocrisy in denigrating and deriding prostitutes out of one side of your mouth, denying the validity of any rational approach response, while patronizingly claiming you "only want to help" these poor abused women who are in your eyes clearly incapable of making their own informed life choices.

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by luchog

Evidence please, as I've not seen any, aside from a few of the hardcore socialists, some of whom are also sex-negative radical feminists as firmly and irrationally opposed to prostitution as you are.

And "gross" is pure and simple bigotry. It's not based on evidence, it's not based on rational analysis. It's a purely an emotional response, and as such, has no place in a rational discussion.

You don't seem capable of addressing the issue that all of what is truly harmful about prostitution is an artifact of its very illegality. You're too lost in your emotionalistic revulsion to consider the clear and present fact that criminalization does far more harm than mere prostitution ever could.

Evidence? go read the economy threads for goodness sake!

You apparently can't read as I have addressed many of these things farther along in the thread.

You apparently can't get past the fact that someone dares to find prostitutes gross and deserving of the stigma. that's your decision. I just think it's not based on reality. i don't think that if your daughter was a prostitute you would be very happy abou it.

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

I would say that my statement above in regards to the treatment of the investment bankers as to the treatment of hookers clearly depicts a hypocrisy.

it's fine on this very forum to ask for the death of the investment bankers as "immoral swine" who ruined the economy on a quest for greed. yet it seems fine to champion the right of a prostitute to sell her body on a quest for greed.

That's a hypocrisy.


Look, I'm just sick of being attacked because you differ with me about prostitution. I might understand If I was on here defending the illegality of it or saying they should be shot or hung or whatever, but I'm not. i have defended the need for it to be legalized ,controlled and taxed. The fact that I may find the occupation icky shouldn't give the mob the right to call me ****** evil.

it's got my southern dander up and I am in serious angry,fighting mode. I hate the internet sometimes...

Hypocrisy can be summed up as saying one thing and doing another.
Your claim of hypocrisy is a nonsense.
As for your silly claim that the mob has called you evil.
Just as you do not know what hypocrisy is, you do not know what a mob is. Hint: one person is never a mob.

[bookitty]

Originally Posted by LogicFail

because i think prostitution is gross. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

am the only one in this thread that doesn't frequent hookers so is rationalizing their own behavior or something?

Hi, that would be me. I have never been involved in sex work from either the client or the employee side.

I have known sex workers of all types - phone sex operators, strippers, runaway kids who fall back on sustenance prostitution, porn actresses, porn stars, internet show trans people, call girls, outcall dancers, pro doms and subs. Every single one of them was different. Different background, different by-day life, different income levels, different levels of happiness and satisfaction, etc. There is no single "sex worker" story.

Every single one of them was deserving of respect, regardless of what you think of their profession. The people who fit your warped view most closely, doubly so.

I have known strung out teenagers who were beaten by pimps, who caught diseases and hated their life. I met them because they managed to escape and get help. I watched them try to find jobs or make a life on minimum wage after starting from that. Some of them slipped back into prostitution. If you drove by whatever corner they were working, you'd think that they were scum. And what freaking good would that do? How would your scorn be anything more than an olive on the ****sandwich life already gave them?

I'm glad you found someway to feel the bigger person but if that takes crapping on people who already have it rough, I can only suggest you aim higher.

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

Hypocrisy can be summed up as saying one thing and doing another.
Your claim of hypocrisy is a nonsense.
As for your silly claim that the mob has called you evil.
Just as you do not know what hypocrisy is, you do not know what a mob is. Hint: one person is never a mob.

I was called evil by one person yes, yet I see no one defending me against this silly charge.

You don't see that I have been ravaged on here for daring to find hookers gross? The mob indeed has been attacking my position.

You know I went on FB and asked this question and got a 100% response of gross. mostly women. True, anecdotal, but I found it interesting nonetheless.



i would say criticizing one persons greed but hailing another is indeed a hypocrisy. (and it was stated as a forum issue not this threads alone).

so next attempt to besmirch my character? and be careful , I've already reported half of you

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by bookitty

Hi, that would be me. I have never been involved in sex work from either the client or the employee side.

I have known sex workers of all types - phone sex operators, strippers, runaway kids who fall back on sustenance prostitution, porn actresses, porn stars, internet show trans people, call girls, outcall dancers, pro doms and subs. Every single one of them was different. Different background, different by-day life, different income levels, different levels of happiness and satisfaction, etc. There is no single "sex worker" story.

Every single one of them was deserving of respect, regardless of what you think of their profession. The people who fit your warped view most closely, doubly so.

I have known strung out teenagers who were beaten by pimps, who caught diseases and hated their life. I met them because they managed to escape and get help. I watched them try to find jobs or make a life on minimum wage after starting from that. Some of them slipped back into prostitution. If you drove by whatever corner they were working, you'd think that they were scum. And what freaking good would that do? How would your scorn be anything more than an olive on the ****sandwich life already gave them?

I'm glad you found someway to feel the bigger person but if that takes crapping on people who already have it rough, I can only suggest you aim higher.

Well Said.

[3point14]

Originally Posted by bookitty

There are two very distinctly different topics being discussed here - Prostitution as choice and sexual slavery. (And really who gives a rats how many times a day the slave is raped. Once, in one day is too horrible. It happens and it's ongoing.)

normajeana, welcome to the forum.

I'm one of the more vocal feminist on the forum. That doesn't mean that I speak for all feminists or that my opinion is universal, far from it. As you already know, there is some disagreement within feminism in regards to sex work. Personally, I believe that any safe, sane, consensual activities between adults is their business. The problem with sex work in the US is that politics and prudes have removed "safe" from that equation.

The legal brothels in Nevada are (to my incomplete knowledge) decent working models* but even if legal brothels were to become more widespread, that wouldn't help the independent sex workers. Many wouldn't want to work at a brothel and some would be ineligible. Underage runaways would still have no option but street work. In order to protect the independent workers, prostitution must be decriminalized. That's going to be a hell of a fight. The US isn't exactly pro-women right now, pro-sex-worker seems like a distant dream.

* I would prefer that brothels were run as collectives by the sex workers. A brothel owner takes a large portion of the workers earning. The owner provides security and other amenities but the owner's profit is a little too close to pimping.

Do you know if their pay is on a scale with owners of similar sized companies in other industries?

[bookitty]

Originally Posted by 3point14

Do you know if their pay is on a scale with owners of similar sized companies in other industries?

I know too little about the operation of NV brothels to be of much use. However, there seem to be a few people here who may be able to answer your question.

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by bookitty

Hi, that would be me. I have never been involved in sex work from either the client or the employee side.

I have known sex workers of all types - phone sex operators, strippers, runaway kids who fall back on sustenance prostitution, porn actresses, porn stars, internet show trans people, call girls, outcall dancers, pro doms and subs. Every single one of them was different. Different background, different by-day life, different income levels, different levels of happiness and satisfaction, etc. There is no single "sex worker" story.

Every single one of them was deserving of respect, regardless of what you think of their profession. The people who fit your warped view most closely, doubly so.

I have known strung out teenagers who were beaten by pimps, who caught diseases and hated their life. I met them because they managed to escape and get help. I watched them try to find jobs or make a life on minimum wage after starting from that. Some of them slipped back into prostitution. If you drove by whatever corner they were working, you'd think that they were scum. And what freaking good would that do? How would your scorn be anything more than an olive on the ****sandwich life already gave them?

I'm glad you found someway to feel the bigger person but if that takes crapping on people who already have it rough, I can only suggest you aim higher.

overly emotional response based on nothing I have said. i said that it should be a stigma. (referring to legalized prostitution) i said that i would be willing to go to prison to save a daughter from illegal prostitution.

I think what happens to women forced into the sex trade via drugs, kidnapping, blackmail...etc to be terrible and what happens to children to be the worst of all. i think that those responsible should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

I also think that if one chooses to be a prostitute then they are engaging in a gross business. No less than what I think of the same 4 broads that are trolling for Mr Right Now every weekend at some of the local bars.


But twist my words and try to make me a bad guy for daring to have a moral compass on this issue. try to ignore the statements I have made in regards to my support for legalization and prosecution of those involved in the dark side of the illegal sex trade.

[luchog]

Originally Posted by bookitty

I'm glad you found someway to feel the bigger person but if that takes crapping on people who already have it rough, I can only suggest you aim higher.

Beautifully said.