"But Seriously, Prostitution Is Not Sex Slavery" - Page 8

mijopaalmc · 25th April 2012, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Because we try to avoid stupid logical fallacies.

I was making an observation that the posters who appear to be male appear to be the ones declaring that prostitution in inherently degrading. If the posters doing so are not in fact, all you have to do is point that out instead making a back-handed comment about "stupid logical fallacies".

crimresearch · 25th April 2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by CORed

I'm going to suggest that a new amendment be added to the Bill of Rights (or whatever your country's equivalent might be if you're not in the USA).

"The right of consenting adults to engage in sexual behavior with anybody, for any reason, shall not be infringed."

The fact that certain people, even a majority of people, find certain types of sex, or certain motivations for sex to be disgusting is not a valid reason to bring the sanctions of the law against those who participate in them.

People who think otherwise need to learn to mind their own business. If you find certain types of sex disgusting, fine, so do I. I don't do those things (and I'm not going to go into detail about my personal preference, because it's nobody's business but mine), but I would never presume to tell somebody else that they shouldn't do them.

Note that this is not intended to absolve anybody of responsibility for children that result form sexual behavior, nor if they recklessly transmit infections to others. There are plenty of laws on the books to deal with the consequences of unwise sexual behavior, but what people do sexually, with whom they do it, and why they do it (love money or kicks) is not something that the government needs to concern itself with.

No need for an amendment, that's basically what the US Supreme Court said years ago.

Quote:

The State cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime. Their right to liberty under the Due Process Clause gives them the full right to engage in their conduct without intervention of the government.

I Ratant · 25th April 2012, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Wow, all kinds of issues.

First if someone else chooses who she has sex with and not her then it is rape. That has nothing to do with what people want legalized.

And you showed rather a poor opinion of large men as well. But I guess I don't rate as a person in your book any more than a prostitute does.

.
I'd wager my response to the man-mountain scene was precisely what Fellini was looking for.
As for prostitutes being persons, of course they are.
Some have to do it, some do it for ***** and grins.
But there is a downside to it.

Ron_Tomkins · 25th April 2012, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by BravesFan

I have a right to judge others to my hearts content. As do you!! See how great freedom is?

Anyone who tries to state that they don't judge others is fooling themselves.

Wow. What an accomplishment. Good for you: You realized you have the freedom to be a bigot. Yes, people have the freedom to judge others for being black, white, gay, transgender, etc. So what? I'm not arguing whether they are free to judge other people. You can judge all you want, but don't try to convince anyone that your judgment is based on any rational thought, or that your judgment gives your argument any validity or that your judgment actually makes something immoral or wrong or harmful or any of those. So yeah, in the end of the day, your will to judge others, while completely valid as a thing you're free to exercise, is otherwise pretty pointless in itself.

bumlet5 · 25th April 2012, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
50 years ago I was watching "Nights of Cabiria", about a young girl going into prostitution in Italy. Guillietta Massini, waif of a girl.
Her first john was supplied by the pimp.
A 350 pound (at least) man-mountain!
I recall to this day what I said.. "Geez, couldn't they have sent a human?"...

Some woman like doing it with disgusting creatures... they can't be said to be "degraded".... stooooid gints, but that's their option.
I feel that many woman do feel degraded by having to let some disgusting thing use and go into their body, for any reason.

Um, you do realize that "Nights of Cabiria" was a fictional film, not a documentary, right?

Madalch · 25th April 2012, 12:25 PM

Speaking of which, the Canadian government is appealing a court-ruling which struck down a law banning brothels.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...sex-trade.html

(The link is "breaking news" and hardly states more than I've posted, but it may become more informative soon.)

(ETA: Now I want to set up a second account under the name "Brothel", and then get banned.)

I Ratant · 25th April 2012, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by bumlet5

Um, you do realize that "Nights of Cabiria" was a fictional film, not a documentary, right?

.
And it was made to present a viewpoint, which it did very well.
"Cabiria" was quite content with her situation.

Rasmus · 25th April 2012, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc

I was making an observation that the posters who appear to be male appear to be the ones declaring that prostitution in inherently degrading. If the posters doing so are not in fact, all you have to do is point that out instead making a back-handed comment about "stupid logical fallacies".

It is a fallacy to suggest that just because a poster is male, they cannot form an accurate opinion on something, or that their being male is the main reason for having that opinion.

So, no, I have no clue who is and is not male. I am saying it is irrelevant.

bumlet5 · 25th April 2012, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
And it was made to present a viewpoint, which it did very well.
"Cabiria" was quite content with her situation.

Present a viewpoint, yes. Be entertaining, yes. Be realistic, no.

Ron_Tomkins · 25th April 2012, 01:04 PM

Mr Pink believes that working as a waitress is a form of slavery

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

But at least Mr Pink doesn't judge them.

Polaris · 25th April 2012, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

From the written folklore of the Hebrew tribe, I believe.

Ah, that wonderful tome, of course!

Like with drugs and (especially) porn, the people who espouse the most knee-jerk "ewwww" reaction to prostitution seem to think their derision is somehow the natural, obvious, "moral" stance to take, as if it's separate from cultural mores...in this case cultural Christianity, which maintains on a subconscious level that sex, and pleasure in general - at least that which is not gained from hard (non-sex-related) work - is really bad at its core.

Outside of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, the profession is seen in a much more level-headed way. I would have said "rational", but for the religious aspects of the temple prostitutes of Antiquity.

While it's certainly possible to be consistant with regard to finding prostitution and sex work in general to be repugnant, it's not a rational position to hold in the first place.

As Carlin said, "Selling is legal, *********** is legal, why is selling *********** illegal?"

CORed · 25th April 2012, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

No need for an amendment, that's basically what the US Supreme Court said years ago.

The supreme court did rule sodomy laws unconstitutional, but the last time I checked, prostitution laws are still on the books and being enforced, so they didn't go quite as far as I have in mind for my amendment.

Apparently you can do whatever you want with whomever you want, but not if you get paid for it.

If you read typical prostitution laws, if you go on a date, one party pays for the food and entertainment, and you have sex, you've probably violated the law. Not that I have heard of charges being filed in such a case, but you never know what some idiot prosecutor trying to score political points will decide to do

crimresearch · 25th April 2012, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by CORed

The supreme court did rule sodomy laws unconstitutional, but the last time I checked, prostitution laws are still on the books and being enforced, so they didn't go quite as far as I have in mind for my amendment.

Apparently you can do whatever you want with whomever you want, but not if you get paid for it.

If you read typical prostitution laws, if you go on a date, one party pays for the food and entertainment, and you have sex, you've probably violated the law. Not that I have heard of charges being filed in such a case, but you never know what some idiot prosecutor trying to score political points will decide to do

Yeah, they didn't include 'for-pay' under private. And 'no' on a dinner date meeting the legal elements of prostitution.

slingblade · 25th April 2012, 01:39 PM

Years ago on Sally jesse Raphael's talk show, she had some hookers on, and the Good Christian Housewives in the audience were giving the ladies on stage raw, bloody grief.

One of them waited a beat, then said [paraphrasing]:

"So, you upstanding, unemployed housewives have husbands, yes? And do your husbands pay the mortgage, pay for the groceries, pay for your clothes, pay for all your needs and many of your wants? And do you have sex with them?

"Then what makes you different from us?"

Logical, rational? I dunno. But hawt damn, ZING! BURN!

Polaris · 25th April 2012, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by slingblade

Years ago on Sally jesse Raphael's talk show, she had some hookers on, and the Good Christian Housewives in the audience were giving the ladies on stage raw, bloody grief.

One of them waited a beat, then said [paraphrasing]:

"So, you upstanding, unemployed housewives have husbands, yes? And do your husbands pay the mortgage, pay for the groceries, pay for your clothes, pay for all your needs and many of your wants? And do you have sex with them?

"Then what makes you different from us?"

Logical, rational? I dunno. But hawt damn, ZING! BURN!

That's price-gouging on behalf of the Good Christian Housewives, IMHO.

BenBurch · 25th April 2012, 02:05 PM

You want to know what was degrading? Working for a sewer contractor one summer during college. I had to dig out sewer lines with a pick and shovel, and had to spend a lot of time covered in other people's ****.

mijopaalmc · 25th April 2012, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

It is a fallacy to suggest that just because a poster is male, they cannot form an accurate opinion on something, or that their being male is the main reason for having that opinion.

Since that not what I said, you have just created your own fallacy.

Daald · 25th April 2012, 02:35 PM

Prostitution is not the fact that you pay someone for sex. You pay them to leave. That's what that secret service agent hadn't figured out

A friend of mine figured that out recently as well. He is a single man in NYC and he gets plenty of sex. The problem is that he gets plenty of drama as well. Right now he is frequenting prostitutes and he loves the fact that he gets no more drama and the "dates" end up cheaper in comparison as well.

Rasmus · 25th April 2012, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc

Since that not what I said, you have just created your own fallacy.

Then what did you say? What's the point of pointing out what you think the gender is of some posters?

BenBurch · 25th April 2012, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Daald

Prostitution is not the fact that you pay someone for sex. You pay them to leave. That's what that secret service agent hadn't figured out

A friend of mine figured that out recently as well. He is a single man in NYC and he gets plenty of sex. The problem is that he gets plenty of drama as well. Right now he is frequenting prostitutes and he loves the fact that he gets no more drama and the "dates" end up cheaper in comparison as well.

I know a guy who was keeping his assignations with hookers secret from basically everybody, and now that his wife knows, serious drama. So it can work both ways.

Daald · 25th April 2012, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

I know a guy who was keeping his assignations with hookers secret from basically everybody, and now that his wife knows, serious drama. So it can work both ways.

I don't understand how that guy cheating on his wife makes what I said work both ways. Can you clarify?

mijopaalmc · 25th April 2012, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Then what did you say? What's the point of pointing out what you think the gender is of some posters?

Would it kill you to scroll up?

Why don't you tell me how your interpetation of what I said comes to approximating something that might be called logically valid if squinted hard enough at it low light?

Madalch · 25th April 2012, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

I know a guy who was keeping his assignations with hookers secret from basically everybody, and now that his wife knows, serious drama. So it can work both ways.

Ah, but if he had paid his wife to leave as well, there'd have been no drama.

I Ratant · 25th April 2012, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by bumlet5

Present a viewpoint, yes. Be entertaining, yes. Be realistic, no.

.
The film starts with Cabiria tossed into a river so her escort can steal her purse.
One of my lady friends out on a "date" was stabbed in the chest and nearly died.
She's also jumped from moving cars.
The movie ends with Cabiria again being had by her husband, this time.
Seems the movie is a representation of what can be expected in that work style.

I Ratant · 25th April 2012, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Madalch

Ah, but if he had paid his wife to leave as well, there'd have been no drama.

.
I'm sure he will!

But there will be drama.

bumlet5 · 25th April 2012, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
The film starts with Cabiria tossed into a river so her escort can steal her purse.
One of my lady friends out on a "date" was stabbed in the chest and nearly died.
She's also jumped from moving cars.
The movie ends with Cabiria again being had by her husband, this time.
Seems the movie is a representation of what can be expected in that work style.

So because something happened to your friend and something similar happened to the character in the movie, all prostitutes are forced to have sex with "disgusting creatures"? Something is wrong with that connection.

BenBurch · 25th April 2012, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Madalch

Ah, but if he had paid his wife to leave as well, there'd have been no drama.

Well, he is going to have to pay for her to leave anyway. It's called divorce.

BenBurch · 25th April 2012, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Daald

I don't understand how that guy cheating on his wife makes what I said work both ways. Can you clarify?

Well, patronizing a sexworker is not a sure-fire recipe to remove drama from your life is all I meant.

BenBurch · 25th April 2012, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
I'm sure he will!

But there will be drama.

Heh, you answered it already.

Daald · 25th April 2012, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Well, patronizing a sexworker is not a sure-fire recipe to remove drama from your life is all I meant.

Ahhh. Of course not. It just removes some of the drama that comes when pursuing casual sex where two lays equals a serious relationship.

Morrigan · 25th April 2012, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by bookitty

Hi, that would be me. I have never been involved in sex work from either the client or the employee side.

I have known sex workers of all types - phone sex operators, strippers, runaway kids who fall back on sustenance prostitution, porn actresses, porn stars, internet show trans people, call girls, outcall dancers, pro doms and subs. Every single one of them was different. Different background, different by-day life, different income levels, different levels of happiness and satisfaction, etc. There is no single "sex worker" story.

Every single one of them was deserving of respect, regardless of what you think of their profession. The people who fit your warped view most closely, doubly so.

I have known strung out teenagers who were beaten by pimps, who caught diseases and hated their life. I met them because they managed to escape and get help. I watched them try to find jobs or make a life on minimum wage after starting from that. Some of them slipped back into prostitution. If you drove by whatever corner they were working, you'd think that they were scum. And what freaking good would that do? How would your scorn be anything more than an olive on the ****sandwich life already gave them?

I'm glad you found someway to feel the bigger person but if that takes crapping on people who already have it rough, I can only suggest you aim higher.

Nominated.

Originally Posted by Draca

It is not the same imo. The reason it would be considered different would be mostly on moral grounds. I think sex ideally should be with someone you love. It is a sacred action (not necessarily in a religious way).

I am amazed that in the 21st century, there are people who not only still believe that, but think that their bizarre values about sex should apply to everyone and not just themselves.

Quote:

To sell what I think should be sacred, or at least deeply personal, for money is wrong imo. It's not something that I want to see legalized. It is a standard of conduct that a community has to decide on.

So it's just your personal opinion... yet you want to keep it illegal, therefore forcing your opinion on everyone else. But you also say that the community should decide... so if your community decided that legalizing prostitution was a good idea, you'd go along with it?

I Ratant · 25th April 2012, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by bumlet5

So because something happened to your friend and something similar happened to the character in the movie, all prostitutes are forced to have sex with "disgusting creatures"? Something is wrong with that connection.

.
Yeah, it's with you.
You take a general statement and force it in a particular statement that fits your biases.

bumlet5 · 25th April 2012, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Yeah, it's with you.
You take a general statement and force it in a particular statement that fits your biases.

Actually, you stated that movie as an example of the life of prostitutes in general. When I asked why, you said that it was because the movie ended in violence, which was similar to what happened to someone you know. I'm just trying to understand why you're using a movie from 50 years ago as a prime example of the life of prostitutes.

I Ratant · 25th April 2012, 06:41 PM

The life of a sex worker is more exposed to potential violence than just about any job there is. From getting stiffed by a john that won't pay, or beaten, or killed, no other work a woman can do is so exposed to violence almost as a given.
Some serial killers are known to focus on prostitutes, building up enormous kill numbers before getting caught... rare.. or just stopping for who knows why.
The "popular" music of the low brows considers women to be ho's and bitches, not persons.
The mindset that admires that genre is hardly going to hold the door for the woman to go through, now is it?

mijopaalmc · 25th April 2012, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

The life of a sex worker is more exposed to potential violence than just about any job there is. From getting stiffed by a john that won't pay, or beaten, or killed, no other work a woman can do is so exposed to violence almost as a given.
Some serial killers are known to focus on prostitutes, building up enormous kill numbers before getting caught... rare.. or just stopping for who knows why.
The "popular" music of the low brows considers women to be ho's and bitches, not persons.
The mindset that admires that genre is hardly going to hold the door for the woman to go through, now is it?

And you think that your perpetuation of the stigma of prostitution helps prostitutes?

slingblade · 25th April 2012, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

The life of a sex worker is more exposed to potential violence than just about any job there is. From getting stiffed by a john that won't pay, or beaten, or killed, no other work a woman can do is so exposed to violence almost as a given.
Some serial killers are known to focus on prostitutes, building up enormous kill numbers before getting caught... rare.. or just stopping for who knows why.
The "popular" music of the low brows considers women to be ho's and bitches, not persons.
The mindset that admires that genre is hardly going to hold the door for the woman to go through, now is it?

Not when it's properly legalized and regulated.

Stop over-generalizing. That isn't helping to advance the point. It never does.

BenBurch · 25th April 2012, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by slingblade

Not when it's properly legalized and regulated.

Stop over-generalizing. That isn't helping to advance the point. It never does.

Yeah, I have not heard of any violence at NV brothels of any note. And I don't think a serial killer would choose to kill in one.

Streetwalkers are easy targets; they will get into a vehicle. If it were legal, I think there would be many fewer streetwalkers. People would be able to work from a fixed address.

bumlet5 · 25th April 2012, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Yeah, I have not heard of any violence at NV brothels of any note. And I don't think a serial killer would choose to kill in one.

Streetwalkers are easy targets; they will get into a vehicle. If it were legal, I think there would be many fewer streetwalkers. People would be able to work from a fixed address.

As well as being able to go to the police if they ARE abused, access to medical care, and growing respect.

Eddie Dane · 26th April 2012, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by Polaris

That's price-gouging on behalf of the Good Christian Housewives, IMHO.

I still have an ant-feminist book from the sixties, written by Esther Vilar (sp?).

She actually argues exactly that. Women hate prostitutes because they spoil the market.

If you're trying to get a lifelong commitment, housing, money, etc in return for a bi-monthly shag.
Then somebody down the street offering the same service for $ 50, isn't exactly welcome competition.

Rasmus · 26th April 2012, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

If you're trying to get a lifelong commitment, housing, money, etc in return for a bi-monthly shag.
Then somebody down the street offering the same service for $ 50, isn't exactly welcome competition.

And of course, the person down the street is a pro as opposed to the amateurish wife ...

25th April 2012, 11:12 AM	#281
mijopaalmc Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,634	Originally Posted by Rasmus Because we try to avoid stupid logical fallacies. I was making an observation that the posters who appear to be male appear to be the ones declaring that prostitution in inherently degrading. If the posters doing so are not in fact, all you have to do is point that out instead making a back-handed comment about "stupid logical fallacies".
mijopaalmc Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,634

25th April 2012, 11:21 AM	#282
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by CORed I'm going to suggest that a new amendment be added to the Bill of Rights (or whatever your country's equivalent might be if you're not in the USA). "The right of consenting adults to engage in sexual behavior with anybody, for any reason, shall not be infringed." The fact that certain people, even a majority of people, find certain types of sex, or certain motivations for sex to be disgusting is not a valid reason to bring the sanctions of the law against those who participate in them. People who think otherwise need to learn to mind their own business. If you find certain types of sex disgusting, fine, so do I. I don't do those things (and I'm not going to go into detail about my personal preference, because it's nobody's business but mine), but I would never presume to tell somebody else that they shouldn't do them. Note that this is not intended to absolve anybody of responsibility for children that result form sexual behavior, nor if they recklessly transmit infections to others. There are plenty of laws on the books to deal with the consequences of unwise sexual behavior, but what people do sexually, with whom they do it, and why they do it (love money or kicks) is not something that the government needs to concern itself with. No need for an amendment, that's basically what the US Supreme Court said years ago. Quote: The State cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime. Their right to liberty under the Due Process Clause gives them the full right to engage in their conduct without intervention of the government.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

25th April 2012, 11:51 AM	#284
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 32,009	Originally Posted by BravesFan I have a right to judge others to my hearts content. As do you!! See how great freedom is? Anyone who tries to state that they don't judge others is fooling themselves. Wow. What an accomplishment. Good for you: You realized you have the freedom to be a bigot. Yes, people have the freedom to judge others for being black, white, gay, transgender, etc. So what? I'm not arguing whether they are free to judge other people. You can judge all you want, but don't try to convince anyone that your judgment is based on any rational thought, or that your judgment gives your argument any validity or that your judgment actually makes something immoral or wrong or harmful or any of those. So yeah, in the end of the day, your will to judge others, while completely valid as a thing you're free to exercise, is otherwise pretty pointless in itself.
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan Last edited by Ron_Tomkins; 25th April 2012 at 12:14 PM.

25th April 2012, 12:23 PM	#285
bumlet5 Indescribable Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The dark recesses of my imagination. Posts: 4,180	Originally Posted by I Ratant . 50 years ago I was watching "Nights of Cabiria", about a young girl going into prostitution in Italy. Guillietta Massini, waif of a girl. Her first john was supplied by the pimp. A 350 pound (at least) man-mountain! I recall to this day what I said.. "Geez, couldn't they have sent a human?"... Some woman like doing it with disgusting creatures... they can't be said to be "degraded".... stooooid gints, but that's their option. I feel that many woman do feel degraded by having to let some disgusting thing use and go into their body, for any reason. Um, you do realize that "Nights of Cabiria" was a fictional film, not a documentary, right?
	__________________ "I'm a soundwave tsunami, vocal origami, hijack the mic and it's not like anyone could stop me." -mc chris "I've seen so much death" <("<) (>")> <("<) (>")> <("<) (>")> -Nathan Fillion

25th April 2012, 12:25 PM	#286
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,701	Speaking of which, the Canadian government is appealing a court-ruling which struck down a law banning brothels. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...sex-trade.html (The link is "breaking news" and hardly states more than I've posted, but it may become more informative soon.) (ETA: Now I want to set up a second account under the name "Brothel", and then get banned.)
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

25th April 2012, 11:43 AM	#283
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Wow, all kinds of issues. First if someone else chooses who she has sex with and not her then it is rape. That has nothing to do with what people want legalized. And you showed rather a poor opinion of large men as well. But I guess I don't rate as a person in your book any more than a prostitute does. . I'd wager my response to the man-mountain scene was precisely what Fellini was looking for. As for prostitutes being persons, of course they are. Some have to do it, some do it for ***** and grins. But there is a downside to it.

25th April 2012, 12:28 PM	#287
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by bumlet5 Um, you do realize that "Nights of Cabiria" was a fictional film, not a documentary, right? . And it was made to present a viewpoint, which it did very well. "Cabiria" was quite content with her situation.

25th April 2012, 12:39 PM	#288
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by mijopaalmc I was making an observation that the posters who appear to be male appear to be the ones declaring that prostitution in inherently degrading. If the posters doing so are not in fact, all you have to do is point that out instead making a back-handed comment about "stupid logical fallacies". It is a fallacy to suggest that just because a poster is male, they cannot form an accurate opinion on something, or that their being male is the main reason for having that opinion. So, no, I have no clue who is and is not male. I am saying it is irrelevant.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

25th April 2012, 12:55 PM	#289
bumlet5 Indescribable Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The dark recesses of my imagination. Posts: 4,180	Originally Posted by I Ratant . And it was made to present a viewpoint, which it did very well. "Cabiria" was quite content with her situation. Present a viewpoint, yes. Be entertaining, yes. Be realistic, no.
	__________________ "I'm a soundwave tsunami, vocal origami, hijack the mic and it's not like anyone could stop me." -mc chris "I've seen so much death" <("<) (>")> <("<) (>")> <("<) (>")> -Nathan Fillion

25th April 2012, 01:11 PM	#291
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,168	Originally Posted by BenBurch From the written folklore of the Hebrew tribe, I believe. Ah, that wonderful tome, of course! Like with drugs and (especially) porn, the people who espouse the most knee-jerk "ewwww" reaction to prostitution seem to think their derision is somehow the natural, obvious, "moral" stance to take, as if it's separate from cultural mores...in this case cultural Christianity, which maintains on a subconscious level that sex, and pleasure in general - at least that which is not gained from hard (non-sex-related) work - is really bad at its core. Outside of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, the profession is seen in a much more level-headed way. I would have said "rational", but for the religious aspects of the temple prostitutes of Antiquity. While it's certainly possible to be consistant with regard to finding prostitution and sex work in general to be repugnant, it's not a rational position to hold in the first place. As Carlin said, "Selling is legal, ********* is legal, why is selling ********* illegal?"
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,168	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro Last edited by Polaris; 25th April 2012 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Spelling

25th April 2012, 01:28 PM	#292
CORed Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,289	Originally Posted by crimresearch No need for an amendment, that's basically what the US Supreme Court said years ago. The supreme court did rule sodomy laws unconstitutional, but the last time I checked, prostitution laws are still on the books and being enforced, so they didn't go quite as far as I have in mind for my amendment. Apparently you can do whatever you want with whomever you want, but not if you get paid for it. If you read typical prostitution laws, if you go on a date, one party pays for the food and entertainment, and you have sex, you've probably violated the law. Not that I have heard of charges being filed in such a case, but you never know what some idiot prosecutor trying to score political points will decide to do
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25th April 2012, 01:35 PM	#293
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by CORed The supreme court did rule sodomy laws unconstitutional, but the last time I checked, prostitution laws are still on the books and being enforced, so they didn't go quite as far as I have in mind for my amendment. Apparently you can do whatever you want with whomever you want, but not if you get paid for it. If you read typical prostitution laws, if you go on a date, one party pays for the food and entertainment, and you have sex, you've probably violated the law. Not that I have heard of charges being filed in such a case, but you never know what some idiot prosecutor trying to score political points will decide to do Yeah, they didn't include 'for-pay' under private. And 'no' on a dinner date meeting the legal elements of prostitution.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Last edited by crimresearch; 25th April 2012 at 02:07 PM.

25th April 2012, 01:39 PM	#294
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Years ago on Sally jesse Raphael's talk show, she had some hookers on, and the Good Christian Housewives in the audience were giving the ladies on stage raw, bloody grief. One of them waited a beat, then said [paraphrasing]: "So, you upstanding, unemployed housewives have husbands, yes? And do your husbands pay the mortgage, pay for the groceries, pay for your clothes, pay for all your needs and many of your wants? And do you have sex with them? "Then what makes you different from us?" Logical, rational? I dunno. But hawt damn, ZING! BURN!
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25th April 2012, 01:48 PM	#295
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,168	Originally Posted by slingblade Years ago on Sally jesse Raphael's talk show, she had some hookers on, and the Good Christian Housewives in the audience were giving the ladies on stage raw, bloody grief. One of them waited a beat, then said [paraphrasing]: "So, you upstanding, unemployed housewives have husbands, yes? And do your husbands pay the mortgage, pay for the groceries, pay for your clothes, pay for all your needs and many of your wants? And do you have sex with them? "Then what makes you different from us?" Logical, rational? I dunno. But hawt damn, ZING! BURN! That's price-gouging on behalf of the Good Christian Housewives, IMHO.
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,168	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

25th April 2012, 02:05 PM	#296
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,134	You want to know what was degrading? Working for a sewer contractor one summer during college. I had to dig out sewer lines with a pick and shovel, and had to spend a lot of time covered in other people's ****.
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25th April 2012, 02:09 PM	#297
mijopaalmc Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,634	Originally Posted by Rasmus It is a fallacy to suggest that just because a poster is male, they cannot form an accurate opinion on something, or that their being male is the main reason for having that opinion. Since that not what I said, you have just created your own fallacy.
mijopaalmc Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,634

25th April 2012, 02:35 PM	#298
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Prostitution is not the fact that you pay someone for sex. You pay them to leave. That's what that secret service agent hadn't figured out A friend of mine figured that out recently as well. He is a single man in NYC and he gets plenty of sex. The problem is that he gets plenty of drama as well. Right now he is frequenting prostitutes and he loves the fact that he gets no more drama and the "dates" end up cheaper in comparison as well.

25th April 2012, 02:36 PM	#299
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by mijopaalmc Since that not what I said, you have just created your own fallacy. Then what did you say? What's the point of pointing out what you think the gender is of some posters?
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

25th April 2012, 02:37 PM	#300
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,134	Originally Posted by Daald Prostitution is not the fact that you pay someone for sex. You pay them to leave. That's what that secret service agent hadn't figured out A friend of mine figured that out recently as well. He is a single man in NYC and he gets plenty of sex. The problem is that he gets plenty of drama as well. Right now he is frequenting prostitutes and he loves the fact that he gets no more drama and the "dates" end up cheaper in comparison as well. I know a guy who was keeping his assignations with hookers secret from basically everybody, and now that his wife knows, serious drama. So it can work both ways.
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25th April 2012, 02:42 PM	#301
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by BenBurch I know a guy who was keeping his assignations with hookers secret from basically everybody, and now that his wife knows, serious drama. So it can work both ways. I don't understand how that guy cheating on his wife makes what I said work both ways. Can you clarify?

25th April 2012, 02:58 PM	#302
mijopaalmc Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,634	Originally Posted by Rasmus Then what did you say? What's the point of pointing out what you think the gender is of some posters? Would it kill you to scroll up? Why don't you tell me how your interpetation of what I said comes to approximating something that might be called logically valid if squinted hard enough at it low light?
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25th April 2012, 03:16 PM	#303
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,701	Originally Posted by BenBurch I know a guy who was keeping his assignations with hookers secret from basically everybody, and now that his wife knows, serious drama. So it can work both ways. Ah, but if he had paid his wife to leave as well, there'd have been no drama.
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25th April 2012, 03:41 PM	#304
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by bumlet5 Present a viewpoint, yes. Be entertaining, yes. Be realistic, no. . The film starts with Cabiria tossed into a river so her escort can steal her purse. One of my lady friends out on a "date" was stabbed in the chest and nearly died. She's also jumped from moving cars. The movie ends with Cabiria again being had by her husband, this time. Seems the movie is a representation of what can be expected in that work style.

25th April 2012, 03:43 PM	#305
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Madalch Ah, but if he had paid his wife to leave as well, there'd have been no drama. . I'm sure he will! But there will be drama.

25th April 2012, 04:07 PM	#306
bumlet5 Indescribable Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The dark recesses of my imagination. Posts: 4,180	Originally Posted by I Ratant . The film starts with Cabiria tossed into a river so her escort can steal her purse. One of my lady friends out on a "date" was stabbed in the chest and nearly died. She's also jumped from moving cars. The movie ends with Cabiria again being had by her husband, this time. Seems the movie is a representation of what can be expected in that work style. So because something happened to your friend and something similar happened to the character in the movie, all prostitutes are forced to have sex with "disgusting creatures"? Something is wrong with that connection.
	__________________ "I'm a soundwave tsunami, vocal origami, hijack the mic and it's not like anyone could stop me." -mc chris "I've seen so much death" <("<) (>")> <("<) (>")> <("<) (>")> -Nathan Fillion

25th April 2012, 04:51 PM	#307
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,134	Originally Posted by Madalch Ah, but if he had paid his wife to leave as well, there'd have been no drama. Well, he is going to have to pay for her to leave anyway. It's called divorce.
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25th April 2012, 04:56 PM	#308
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,134	Originally Posted by Daald I don't understand how that guy cheating on his wife makes what I said work both ways. Can you clarify? Well, patronizing a sexworker is not a sure-fire recipe to remove drama from your life is all I meant.
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25th April 2012, 05:00 PM	#309
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,134	Originally Posted by I Ratant . I'm sure he will! But there will be drama. Heh, you answered it already.
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25th April 2012, 05:03 PM	#310
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by BenBurch Well, patronizing a sexworker is not a sure-fire recipe to remove drama from your life is all I meant. Ahhh. Of course not. It just removes some of the drama that comes when pursuing casual sex where two lays equals a serious relationship.

25th April 2012, 05:22 PM	#311
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,875	Originally Posted by bookitty Hi, that would be me. I have never been involved in sex work from either the client or the employee side. I have known sex workers of all types - phone sex operators, strippers, runaway kids who fall back on sustenance prostitution, porn actresses, porn stars, internet show trans people, call girls, outcall dancers, pro doms and subs. Every single one of them was different. Different background, different by-day life, different income levels, different levels of happiness and satisfaction, etc. There is no single "sex worker" story. Every single one of them was deserving of respect, regardless of what you think of their profession. The people who fit your warped view most closely, doubly so. I have known strung out teenagers who were beaten by pimps, who caught diseases and hated their life. I met them because they managed to escape and get help. I watched them try to find jobs or make a life on minimum wage after starting from that. Some of them slipped back into prostitution. If you drove by whatever corner they were working, you'd think that they were scum. And what freaking good would that do? How would your scorn be anything more than an olive on the **sandwich life already gave them? I'm glad you found someway to feel the bigger person but if that takes crapping on people who already have it rough, I can only suggest you aim higher. Nominated. Originally Posted by Draca It is not the same imo. The reason it would be considered different would be mostly on moral grounds. I think sex ideally should be with someone you love. It is a sacred action (not necessarily in a religious way). I am amazed that in the 21st century, there are people who not only still believe that, but think that their bizarre values about sex should apply to everyone** and not just themselves. Quote: To sell what I think should be sacred, or at least deeply personal, for money is wrong imo. It's not something that I want to see legalized. It is a standard of conduct that a community has to decide on. So it's just your personal opinion... yet you want to keep it illegal, therefore forcing your opinion on everyone else. But you also say that the community should decide... so if your community decided that legalizing prostitution was a good idea, you'd go along with it?
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25th April 2012, 05:28 PM	#312
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by bumlet5 So because something happened to your friend and something similar happened to the character in the movie, all prostitutes are forced to have sex with "disgusting creatures"? Something is wrong with that connection. . Yeah, it's with you. You take a general statement and force it in a particular statement that fits your biases.

25th April 2012, 05:41 PM	#313
bumlet5 Indescribable Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The dark recesses of my imagination. Posts: 4,180	Originally Posted by I Ratant . Yeah, it's with you. You take a general statement and force it in a particular statement that fits your biases. Actually, you stated that movie as an example of the life of prostitutes in general. When I asked why, you said that it was because the movie ended in violence, which was similar to what happened to someone you know. I'm just trying to understand why you're using a movie from 50 years ago as a prime example of the life of prostitutes.
	__________________ "I'm a soundwave tsunami, vocal origami, hijack the mic and it's not like anyone could stop me." -mc chris "I've seen so much death" <("<) (>")> <("<) (>")> <("<) (>")> -Nathan Fillion

25th April 2012, 06:41 PM	#314
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	The life of a sex worker is more exposed to potential violence than just about any job there is. From getting stiffed by a john that won't pay, or beaten, or killed, no other work a woman can do is so exposed to violence almost as a given. Some serial killers are known to focus on prostitutes, building up enormous kill numbers before getting caught... rare.. or just stopping for who knows why. The "popular" music of the low brows considers women to be ho's and bitches, not persons. The mindset that admires that genre is hardly going to hold the door for the woman to go through, now is it?

25th April 2012, 06:59 PM	#315
mijopaalmc Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,634	Originally Posted by I Ratant The life of a sex worker is more exposed to potential violence than just about any job there is. From getting stiffed by a john that won't pay, or beaten, or killed, no other work a woman can do is so exposed to violence almost as a given. Some serial killers are known to focus on prostitutes, building up enormous kill numbers before getting caught... rare.. or just stopping for who knows why. The "popular" music of the low brows considers women to be ho's and bitches, not persons. The mindset that admires that genre is hardly going to hold the door for the woman to go through, now is it? And you think that your perpetuation of the stigma of prostitution helps prostitutes?
mijopaalmc Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,634

25th April 2012, 08:25 PM	#316
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Originally Posted by I Ratant The life of a sex worker is more exposed to potential violence than just about any job there is. From getting stiffed by a john that won't pay, or beaten, or killed, no other work a woman can do is so exposed to violence almost as a given. Some serial killers are known to focus on prostitutes, building up enormous kill numbers before getting caught... rare.. or just stopping for who knows why. The "popular" music of the low brows considers women to be ho's and bitches, not persons. The mindset that admires that genre is hardly going to hold the door for the woman to go through, now is it? Not when it's properly legalized and regulated. Stop over-generalizing. That isn't helping to advance the point. It never does.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642