"But Seriously, Prostitution Is Not Sex Slavery" - Page 9

Eddie Dane · 26th April 2012, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by Daald

Prostitution is not the fact that you pay someone for sex. You pay them to leave. That's what that secret service agent hadn't figured out

A friend of mine figured that out recently as well. He is a single man in NYC and he gets plenty of sex. The problem is that he gets plenty of drama as well. Right now he is frequenting prostitutes and he loves the fact that he gets no more drama and the "dates" end up cheaper in comparison as well.

On some level, women use sex to get relationships and men use relationships to get sex.
Even if a man explicitly says that the relationship is just for fun, or that he's not interested in a relationship, the woman will interpret that as "not yet".

I had some drama incidents before I realised that.

If you use the implicit promise of a steady relationship to get sex, you are essentially scamming the lady.

Visiting a prostitute is a very ethical alternative to the above.
At least the agenda's of both partners are in tune.

Rasmus · 26th April 2012, 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Streetwalkers are easy targets; they will get into a vehicle. If it were legal, I think there would be many fewer streetwalkers. People would be able to work from a fixed address.

Indeed. Just think about how many other legal jobs are offered form the street. (And then not performed on the same street; since otherwise hot dog carts et al will ruin my point.)

epepke · 26th April 2012, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by bookitty

Every single one of them was deserving of respect, regardless of what you think of their profession. The people who fit your warped view most closely, doubly so.

Strange comment, since if anything you do not seem to mete out respect very much. There are even people I don't have respect for, and I question whether people really deserve respect.

What is it about sex workers that makes every single one of them deserving of respect? From my more meagre acquaintance (perhaps a dozen, excluding pro-dommes, who seem a bit different from prostitutes), they strike me as people in any other line of work. Some are good, and some are bad. Some ethical, and some not.

Maybe there's a line that women are inherently deserving of respect, while men aren't. This is pretty common, though people who use the term "sex worker" are generally aware that some are male.

There are some jobs, though, for which you get magic goodness points even if you're bad. Nureses, for example, expect to be considered wonderful even when they are defrauding people by therapeutic touch or trying to kill them for Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy. I know that not automatically praising them where they gather results in their giving death threats, which says something about their ethics.

There's also the "it's a hard job, so respect them" which has been used to justify police states since time immemorial.

Which makes sex workers all worthy of respect?

slingblade · 26th April 2012, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by epepke

Strange comment, since if anything you do not seem to mete out respect very much.

Given a couple of previous posts you've made to Boo, you now look like you're in a one-sided grudge match. Just saying.

Quote:

There are even people I don't have respect for, and I question whether people really deserve respect.

Aw, don't play coy. You have it figured out, and your answer is "no, they don't."

3point14 · 26th April 2012, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by Draca

I get what you are saying. In a way anyone with a job is selling their body and their time. I work for a pay check and am selling my time spent at the office to my employer.

The same with your examples of labourers and sports players. Most everyone.

If I could separate having sex as just another body movement and time spent - like lifting a box, moving fingers on a keyboard or conducting a meeting then I would agree with you.

It is not the same imo. The reason it would be considered different would be mostly on moral grounds. I think sex ideally should be with someone you love. It is a sacred action (not necessarily in a religious way). And I'm not claiming to be a saint in any way. People live their lives and love and loss are part of it. Mistakes and learning experiences are made along the way. To sell what I think should be sacred, or at least deeply personal, for money is wrong imo. It's not something that I want to see legalized. It is a standard of conduct that a community has to decide on.

It's not going away anyway, everyone knows that. Worlds oldest profession after all. I'm against it being legalized or sanctioned by the community though. I don't know that it should be highly penalized either on the other hand. I would place it it more in line with some states stance on pot. It's not legal, but no one is getting arrested just for being caught with a joint on them. Illegally growing pot on National Forrest lands would be a different case. A pimp should similarly be more legally penalized.

It would be interesting to find out what percentage of sex going on in the word right now fits your idealised notion of it.

3point14 · 26th April 2012, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by Xulld

So you think for someone to disagree with you means they frequent brothels or somehow need to feel justified for wanting to?

I have never had a desire to have sex with a prostitute, however I also have never wanted to validate my morals with a visceral reaction vs a reasoned understanding.

Saying, its gross, and that is why its immoral is a non sequitur. For me, I require a reasoned response to validate my moral stances and I currently do not have anything to tell me that having sex for money is morally any worse than providing a pedicure for money is. (Feet are gross)

TL;DR
Visceral reactions are not a reasoned argument.

This, well said. Current arguments seem to be 'it's gross because it's gross'

They are not convincing.

epepke · 26th April 2012, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by slingblade

Given a couple of previous posts you've made to Boo, you now look like you're in a one-sided grudge match. Just saying.

Whatever. I'm snarky toward a lot of people these days for reasons I consider good, and if you think I'm picking on @Bookitty, you should pay attention to what I say to Norwegians, pepper-spray advocates, johnny-come-latelies to object to Rush Limbaugh, and Christians these days. You may (and probably do) make whatever armchair psychoanalysis makes you happy, and if you are anything like most people, you will never question whether any of those analyses have anything to do with you.

But that's relatively boring, because there is no meaningful response beyond "it takes one to know one."

In the mean time, would you like to take a stab at addressing the question? It's a serious one. What is it about sex workers that makes them particularly deserving of respect?

I know that there are people who think that they automatically deserve disrespect, and I don't agree with such people. I do think that there are jobs that automatically deserve disrespect, Republican candidacy for President a fairly obvious example, but I don't have any reason to believe that prostitution is one of these. It doesn't appeal that much to me, but it is something that isn't much skin off my nose.

As long as it can be done fairly safely (which doesn't seem to me impossible if legal and subject to law enforcement), I don't see any problem with it. Prostitution seems to me to be in the category of things that can be done well or poorly, fairly or unfairly, with appropriate market value or inappropriate. Doubtless it can be done in a destructive or exploitive way, but it need not me.

If anything, prostitution is more honest than most acceptable sex games but, in that case, the bar is set so low that I don't think it warrants calling prostitutes particularly deserving of respect. That's where I seem to differ from many people.

Now, there does seem to be a value set about how everyone deserves respect. I don't really buy that. There are plenty of people who do not deserve respect. Nor, do I think, that people who claim this really buy it, as their behaviors are not consistent with this idea.

Daald · 26th April 2012, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by epepke

In the mean time, would you like to take a stab at addressing the question? It's a serious one. What is it about sex workers that makes them particularly deserving of respect?

It is obvious to me that they did not mean that prostitution should automatically grant you respect but that it should not automatically disqualify you from it.

Abooga · 26th April 2012, 06:30 AM

So if prostitution is just like any other job, why can´t a boss offer his secretary a raise in exchange for sex? Would it be sexual harassment? And if you offer money for sex to a prostitute it is not? Why, because the prostitute has already "declared" somehow that she does that kind of job? And a prostitute that in daytime works in an office, can her boss solicit sex from her?

Lithrael · 26th April 2012, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by Abooga

So if prostitution is just like any other job, why can´t a boss offer his secretary a raise in exchange for sex? Would it be sexual harassment? And if you offer money for sex to a prostitute it is not? Why, because the prostitute has already "declared" somehow that she does that kind of job? And a prostitute that in daytime works in an office, can her boss solicit sex from her?

It'd be kind of like asking your secretary to fix the roof or some other work that has nothing to do with their job description, only with sexual overtones which would make it sexual harassment instead of regular harassment... It is indeed all about context I believe. Much in the same way that you can expect a diva to perform on stage but if you ask her to sing while she's trying to do her grocery shopping you are going to piss her off.

Abooga · 26th April 2012, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Lithrael

It'd be kind of like asking your secretary to fix the roof or some other work that has nothing to do with their job description, only with sexual overtones which would make it sexual harassment instead of regular harassment... It is indeed all about context I believe. Much in the same way that you can expect a diva to perform on stage but if you ask her to sing while she's trying to do her grocery shopping you are going to piss her off.

If I ask my secretary to fix the roof she can just say "no, it is not in my job description" and nothing happens, unless I coerce her to do it. In the case of sex, just the suggestion of it could be illegal. I think there´s a difference. Please try to answer the other questions too.

ponderingturtle · 26th April 2012, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Lithrael

It'd be kind of like asking your secretary to fix the roof or some other work that has nothing to do with their job description, only with sexual overtones which would make it sexual harassment instead of regular harassment... It is indeed all about context I believe. Much in the same way that you can expect a diva to perform on stage but if you ask her to sing while she's trying to do her grocery shopping you are going to piss her off.

It does raise the question of a job description of secretary with benefits.

Rasmus · 26th April 2012, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Lithrael

It'd be kind of like asking your secretary to fix the roof or some other work that has nothing to do with their job description,

Not sure about other jurisdictions - but here every single of my employment contracts stipulated that my employer could assign "other duties" to me, if it was in the companies interests to do so and if i was qualified for them.

Quote:

only with sexual overtones which would make it sexual harassment instead of regular harassment...

I never did count how often a manager would approach me and ask me if I could do X, when X had nothing to do with my actual job. I doubt that I would have ever been able to convince a court that I had been harassed on any of those occasions.

Quote:

It is indeed all about context I believe. Much in the same way that you can expect a diva to perform on stage but if you ask her to sing while she's trying to do her grocery shopping you are going to piss her off.

... maybe so. But pissing someone off is not illegal per se. I could approach strangers in the street and ask them to sing - chances are, I would not go to jail for that.

ponderingturtle · 26th April 2012, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Not sure about other jurisdictions - but here every single of my employment contracts stipulated that my employer could assign "other duties" to me, if it was in the companies interests to do so and if i was qualified for them.

I never did count how often a manager would approach me and ask me if I could do X, when X had nothing to do with my actual job. I doubt that I would have ever been able to convince a court that I had been harassed on any of those occasions.

... maybe so. But pissing someone off is not illegal per se. I could approach strangers in the street and ask them to sing - chances are, I would not go to jail for that.

I can do the same with sex though as long as money is not involved.

Rasmus · 26th April 2012, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

I can do the same with sex though as long as money is not involved.

But I can ask people to sing for me for money - and if I do get in trouble, then it would be because of taxes, not harassment.

And on those occasions were I did what m y managers asked for me, I was paid, too.

Another singificant difference: I can be forced to take on jobs that I don't want to take or have my unemployment benefits taken away. But the unemployment agency cannot force me to work as a prostitute or a stripper, e.g., no matter how marketable my body may be...

(I wonder if I could refuse to work as a masseur, assuming I was qualified, if I didin't want to touch other people, though.)

Polaris · 26th April 2012, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

It does raise the question of a job description of secretary with benefits.

As if upper management didn't already have all the perks.

Lithrael · 26th April 2012, 07:28 AM

Fair objections. I can only imagine that it's still useful as a matter of convenience; if there were no chilling effect on guys soliciting random people for sex-for-cash they'd be doing it as often as they solicit random people for sex-for-no-cash... Yeah honestly I got nothing really. The main repercussion would probably be eye strain from the increased amounts of eyerolling the women would have to do.

BenBurch · 26th April 2012, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Indeed. Just think about how many other legal jobs are offered form the street. (And then not performed on the same street; since otherwise hot dog carts et al will ruin my point.)

In Chicago the city busts hot dog carts all the time.

ponderingturtle · 26th April 2012, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

In Chicago the city busts hot dog carts all the time.

Chicago outlawed hotdog carts?

Ron_Tomkins · 26th April 2012, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Abooga

So if prostitution is just like any other job, why can´t a boss offer his secretary a raise in exchange for sex? Would it be sexual harassment? And if you offer money for sex to a prostitute it is not? Why, because the prostitute has already "declared" somehow that she does that kind of job? And a prostitute that in daytime works in an office, can her boss solicit sex from her?

Wow, talk about trying to take this to the extreme absurd just to try to make the argument that prostitution is not like any other job.

No, it wouldn't be sexual harassment. It would be simply unethical because, regardless of the fact that prostitution is just another job, you still can't go around having sex with your secretary without injuring the Company's image.

crimresearch · 26th April 2012, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Chicago outlawed hotdog carts?

Maybe unlicensed ones?

Morrigan · 26th April 2012, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Abooga

So if prostitution is just like any other job, why can´t a boss offer his secretary a raise in exchange for sex? Would it be sexual harassment? And if you offer money for sex to a prostitute it is not? Why, because the prostitute has already "declared" somehow that she does that kind of job? And a prostitute that in daytime works in an office, can her boss solicit sex from her?

If, as a programmer, my boss asked me to clean the toilets, I'd be pretty offended. Just saying.

BenBurch · 26th April 2012, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

Maybe unlicensed ones?

Yep. Health inspectors come and pour bleach on all the food and give the vendor a ticket.

Abooga · 26th April 2012, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Wow, talk about trying to take this to the extreme absurd just to try to make the argument that prostitution is not like any other job.

No, it wouldn't be sexual harassment. It would be simply unethical because, regardless of the fact that prostitution is just another job, you still can't go around having sex with your secretary without injuring the Company's image.

"Reductio ad absurdum" is a valid type of argument.

What wouldn´t be sexual harassment, which scenario of the ones I proposed?

Ron_Tomkins · 26th April 2012, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Abooga

"Reductio ad absurdum" is a valid type of argument.

What wouldn´t be sexual harassment, which scenario of the ones I proposed?

Did you bother reading my post? Apparently not, cause I never said anything about it being sexual harassment. In fact, I explicitly said it wouldn't be sexual harassment. Why don't you go read it again?

Abooga · 26th April 2012, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Did you bother reading my post? Apparently not, cause I never said anything about it being sexual harassment. In fact, I explicitly said it wouldn't be sexual harassment. Why don't you go read it again?

Take a chill pill dude. And read again.

Ron_Tomkins · 26th April 2012, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Abooga

Take a chill pill dude. And read again.

For the umpteenth time, I never made the claim that the scenario of the sex worker secretary would be sexual harassment. So you asking "what wouldn't be sexual harassment" is irrelevant. No one made the claim that it would be sexual harassment. You're arguing with your own self.
Again, take some time to actually read the post I made in response to you.

Abooga · 26th April 2012, 08:41 AM

SCENARIO 1: A boss offers his secretary a raise in exchange for sex? Would it be sexual harassment?
SCENARIO 2: The boss leaves from work and offer money for sex to a street prostitute. Is it sexual harassment?

SCENARIO 3: A prostitute that in daytime works in an office. If her boss in the office solicits sex from her, is it sexual harassment? If her pimp does it?

Abooga · 26th April 2012, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

For the umpteenth time, I never made the claim that the scenario of the sex worker secretary would be sexual harassment. So you asking "what wouldn't be sexual harassment" is irrelevant. No one made the claim that it would be sexual harassment. You're arguing with your own self.
Again, take some time to actually read the post I made in response to you.

Well, I thought that was understood that scenario 1 was the "ground scenario" (Is that how is it called? My english is not that good) Almost the very definition of sexual harassment.

From wikipedia: "Sexual harassment is [...]the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors"

So you´re saying that soliciting sex from an employee is not sexual harassment?

Rasmus · 26th April 2012, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Morrigan

If, as a programmer, my boss asked me to clean the toilets, I'd be pretty offended. Just saying.

But do you think if you went to court over it, it would do you any good in the end? Compensation? Punishment for your boss or anything of the sort?

Me and my colleages were recently asked to take over some light cleaning in the office - the usual person was on vacation and there wasn't a replacement. Nobody seemed terribly offended.

Ron_Tomkins · 26th April 2012, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Abooga

SCENARIO 1: A boss offers his secretary a raise in exchange for sex? Would it be sexual harassment?
SCENARIO 2: The boss leaves from work and offer money for sex to a street prostitute. Is it sexual harassment?

SCENARIO 3: A prostitute that in daytime works in an office. If her boss in the office solicits sex from her, is it sexual harassment? If her pimp does it?

So you seem to be arguing a completely different thing than you were before. One one hand, there's the argument that "prostitution is not like any other job" which was what you originally seemed to be implying. Then there's another, very different argument which is the one you're enforcing, and which goes like this "Can we even talk about sexual harassment when dealing with a prostitute?". In other words, since she is a prostitute, can we legally make insinuations and approaches on her at any time and any place we want, and always be able to get away with it without being accused of sexually harassing her on the grounds that she's a prostitute?

The answer to that is no: Just because a woman is a prostitute doesn't mean you can't harass her sexually. She's still a human being and she still doesn't have to consent to sex with anyone who insinuates her. Besides, you're not your job. You're not defined as the job you do. There's this thing called "Context". A prostitute, like any other worker, has a schedule. Outside of her work schedule, she's just like any other woman, and yes, if you harass her in an elevator, you are sexually harassing a woman, regardless of the fact that she happens to work as a prostitute.

Abooga · 26th April 2012, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

So you seem to be arguing a completely different thing than you were before. One one hand, there's the argument that "prostitution is not like any other job" which was what you originally seemed to be implying. Then there's another, very different argument which is the one you're enforcing, and which goes like this "Can we even talk about sexual harassment when dealing with a prostitute?". In other words, since she is a prostitute, can we legally make insinuations and approaches on her at any time and any place we want, and always be able to get away with it without being accused of sexually harassing her on the grounds that she's a prostitute?

The answer to that is no: Just because a woman is a prostitute doesn't mean you can't harass her sexually. She's still a human being and she still doesn't have to consent to sex with anyone who insinuates her. Besides, you're not your job. You're not defined as the job you do. There's this thing called "Context". A prostitute, like any other worker, has a schedule. Outside of her work schedule, she's just like any other woman, and yes, if you harass her in an elevator, you are sexually harassing a woman, regardless of the fact that she happens to work as a prostitute.

Couldn´t you just play my game and answer the questions themseves?

Well, I have to go now, I´ll see If I can come back later.

I Ratant · 26th April 2012, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Wow, talk about trying to take this to the extreme absurd just to try to make the argument that prostitution is not like any other job.

No, it wouldn't be sexual harassment. It would be simply unethical because, regardless of the fact that prostitution is just another job, you still can't go around having sex with your secretary without injuring the Company's image.

.
Or yours, when your wife walks in on you banging away... Shouldn't dip your wick in the company inkwell... Especially if the Mrs. works there too.

ponderingturtle · 26th April 2012, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Yep. Health inspectors come and pour bleach on all the food and give the vendor a ticket.

And it is still completely irrelevant point to the one being made.

slingblade · 26th April 2012, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by epepke

Whatever. I'm snarky toward a lot of people these days for reasons I consider good, and if you think I'm picking on @Bookitty, you should pay attention to what I say to Norwegians, pepper-spray advocates, johnny-come-latelies to object to Rush Limbaugh, and Christians these days. You may (and probably do) make whatever armchair psychoanalysis makes you happy, and if you are anything like most people, you will never question whether any of those analyses have anything to do with you.

I had to tell some other wag this same thing once. Maybe you were that wag; I have a hard time remembering insignificant ~~people~~ events:

Boo's a friend of mine. That makes it have something "to do with" me.

Quote:

But that's relatively boring, because there is no meaningful response beyond "it takes one to know one."

In the mean time, would you like to take a stab at addressing the question? It's a serious one. What is it about sex workers that makes them particularly deserving of respect?

They're people. I know, that's an alien concept to some. But there we are.

They're not auto-scum; they don't, and shouldn't have to, take their concept of self from our opinion-bases; and because I happen to know one, and am going to have dinner with her tonight.

Quote:

I know that there are people who think that they automatically deserve disrespect, and I don't agree with such people. I do think that there are jobs that automatically deserve disrespect, Republican candidacy for President a fairly obvious example, but I don't have any reason to believe that prostitution is one of these. It doesn't appeal that much to me, but it is something that isn't much skin off my nose.

Then there's one thing, at least, on which we can agree. Now, if you could back down from the playground taunting of Boo, then all would be right with the world.

Abooga · 26th April 2012, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Polaris

Ah, that wonderful tome, of course!

Like with drugs and (especially) porn, the people who espouse the most knee-jerk "ewwww" reaction to prostitution seem to think their derision is somehow the natural, obvious, "moral" stance to take, as if it's separate from cultural mores...in this case cultural Christianity, which maintains on a subconscious level that sex, and pleasure in general - at least that which is not gained from hard (non-sex-related) work - is really bad at its core.

Outside of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, the profession is seen in a much more level-headed way. I would have said "rational", but for the religious aspects of the temple prostitutes of Antiquity.

While it's certainly possible to be consistant with regard to finding prostitution and sex work in general to be repugnant, it's not a rational position to hold in the first place.

As Carlin said, "Selling is legal, *********** is legal, why is selling *********** illegal?"

Soliciting work from an employee is legal. Sex is legal. So why is it illegal to solicit sex (just another kind of work, for some of you) from an employee?

I Ratant · 26th April 2012, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by slingblade

Not when it's properly legalized and regulated.

Stop over-generalizing. That isn't helping to advance the point. It never does.

.
I'll go with... generally, sex-working is one of the most hazardous jobs, with very real potential for injury from the clientele, and a notable lack of assistance from the legal authorities.
Probably the worst job one can get.
Working in a brothel is safer.
Culls the more-prone to violence, but doesn't do much for getting assistance from the authorities.

Skeptic Ginger · 26th April 2012, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

On some level, women use sex to get relationships and men use relationships to get sex.....

Goodness that is cynical. Has it not dawned on you some women like sex and don't always care about relationships?

ponderingturtle · 26th April 2012, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

So you seem to be arguing a completely different thing than you were before. One one hand, there's the argument that "prostitution is not like any other job" which was what you originally seemed to be implying. Then there's another, very different argument which is the one you're enforcing, and which goes like this "Can we even talk about sexual harassment when dealing with a prostitute?". In other words, since she is a prostitute, can we legally make insinuations and approaches on her at any time and any place we want, and always be able to get away with it without being accused of sexually harassing her on the grounds that she's a prostitute?

The answer to that is no: Just because a woman is a prostitute doesn't mean you can't harass her sexually. She's still a human being and she still doesn't have to consent to sex with anyone who insinuates her. Besides, you're not your job. You're not defined as the job you do. There's this thing called "Context". A prostitute, like any other worker, has a schedule. Outside of her work schedule, she's just like any other woman, and yes, if you harass her in an elevator, you are sexually harassing a woman, regardless of the fact that she happens to work as a prostitute.

I don't know that sex work translates well into an office enviroment like that. There is a rather significant difference between not being able to refuse someone on a team for a project and being required to have sex with them. Independent contractors seem a much better model.

bumlet5 · 26th April 2012, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Goodness that is cynical. Has it not dawned on you some women like sex and don't always care about relationships?

Or that men want relationships?

26th April 2012, 02:49 AM	#322
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by BenBurch Streetwalkers are easy targets; they will get into a vehicle. If it were legal, I think there would be many fewer streetwalkers. People would be able to work from a fixed address. Indeed. Just think about how many other legal jobs are offered form the street. (And then not performed on the same street; since otherwise hot dog carts et al will ruin my point.)
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

26th April 2012, 03:41 AM	#323
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	Originally Posted by bookitty Every single one of them was deserving of respect, regardless of what you think of their profession. The people who fit your warped view most closely, doubly so. Strange comment, since if anything you do not seem to mete out respect very much. There are even people I don't have respect for, and I question whether people really deserve respect. What is it about sex workers that makes every single one of them deserving of respect? From my more meagre acquaintance (perhaps a dozen, excluding pro-dommes, who seem a bit different from prostitutes), they strike me as people in any other line of work. Some are good, and some are bad. Some ethical, and some not. Maybe there's a line that women are inherently deserving of respect, while men aren't. This is pretty common, though people who use the term "sex worker" are generally aware that some are male. There are some jobs, though, for which you get magic goodness points even if you're bad. Nureses, for example, expect to be considered wonderful even when they are defrauding people by therapeutic touch or trying to kill them for Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy. I know that not automatically praising them where they gather results in their giving death threats, which says something about their ethics. There's also the "it's a hard job, so respect them" which has been used to justify police states since time immemorial. Which makes sex workers all worthy of respect?
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

26th April 2012, 04:20 AM	#324
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Originally Posted by epepke Strange comment, since if anything you do not seem to mete out respect very much. Given a couple of previous posts you've made to Boo, you now look like you're in a one-sided grudge match. Just saying. Quote: There are even people I don't have respect for, and I question whether people really deserve respect. Aw, don't play coy. You have it figured out, and your answer is "no, they don't."
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

26th April 2012, 04:44 AM	#325
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London ish Posts: 3,594	Originally Posted by Draca I get what you are saying. In a way anyone with a job is selling their body and their time. I work for a pay check and am selling my time spent at the office to my employer. The same with your examples of labourers and sports players. Most everyone. If I could separate having sex as just another body movement and time spent - like lifting a box, moving fingers on a keyboard or conducting a meeting then I would agree with you. It is not the same imo. The reason it would be considered different would be mostly on moral grounds. I think sex ideally should be with someone you love. It is a sacred action (not necessarily in a religious way). And I'm not claiming to be a saint in any way. People live their lives and love and loss are part of it. Mistakes and learning experiences are made along the way. To sell what I think should be sacred, or at least deeply personal, for money is wrong imo. It's not something that I want to see legalized. It is a standard of conduct that a community has to decide on. It's not going away anyway, everyone knows that. Worlds oldest profession after all. I'm against it being legalized or sanctioned by the community though. I don't know that it should be highly penalized either on the other hand. I would place it it more in line with some states stance on pot. It's not legal, but no one is getting arrested just for being caught with a joint on them. Illegally growing pot on National Forrest lands would be a different case. A pimp should similarly be more legally penalized. It would be interesting to find out what percentage of sex going on in the word right now fits your idealised notion of it.
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26th April 2012, 04:48 AM	#326
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London ish Posts: 3,594	Originally Posted by Xulld So you think for someone to disagree with you means they frequent brothels or somehow need to feel justified for wanting to? I have never had a desire to have sex with a prostitute, however I also have never wanted to validate my morals with a visceral reaction vs a reasoned understanding. Saying, its gross, and that is why its immoral is a non sequitur. For me, I require a reasoned response to validate my moral stances and I currently do not have anything to tell me that having sex for money is morally any worse than providing a pedicure for money is. (Feet are gross) TL;DR Visceral reactions are not a reasoned argument. This, well said. Current arguments seem to be 'it's gross because it's gross' They are not convincing.
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26th April 2012, 02:48 AM	#321
Eddie Dane Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,416	Originally Posted by Daald Prostitution is not the fact that you pay someone for sex. You pay them to leave. That's what that secret service agent hadn't figured out A friend of mine figured that out recently as well. He is a single man in NYC and he gets plenty of sex. The problem is that he gets plenty of drama as well. Right now he is frequenting prostitutes and he loves the fact that he gets no more drama and the "dates" end up cheaper in comparison as well. On some level, women use sex to get relationships and men use relationships to get sex. Even if a man explicitly says that the relationship is just for fun, or that he's not interested in a relationship, the woman will interpret that as "not yet". I had some drama incidents before I realised that. If you use the implicit promise of a steady relationship to get sex, you are essentially scamming the lady. Visiting a prostitute is a very ethical alternative to the above. At least the agenda's of both partners are in tune.

26th April 2012, 04:59 AM	#327
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	Originally Posted by slingblade Given a couple of previous posts you've made to Boo, you now look like you're in a one-sided grudge match. Just saying. Whatever. I'm snarky toward a lot of people these days for reasons I consider good, and if you think I'm picking on @Bookitty, you should pay attention to what I say to Norwegians, pepper-spray advocates, johnny-come-latelies to object to Rush Limbaugh, and Christians these days. You may (and probably do) make whatever armchair psychoanalysis makes you happy, and if you are anything like most people, you will never question whether any of those analyses have anything to do with you. But that's relatively boring, because there is no meaningful response beyond "it takes one to know one." In the mean time, would you like to take a stab at addressing the question? It's a serious one. What is it about sex workers that makes them particularly deserving of respect? I know that there are people who think that they automatically deserve disrespect, and I don't agree with such people. I do think that there are jobs that automatically deserve disrespect, Republican candidacy for President a fairly obvious example, but I don't have any reason to believe that prostitution is one of these. It doesn't appeal that much to me, but it is something that isn't much skin off my nose. As long as it can be done fairly safely (which doesn't seem to me impossible if legal and subject to law enforcement), I don't see any problem with it. Prostitution seems to me to be in the category of things that can be done well or poorly, fairly or unfairly, with appropriate market value or inappropriate. Doubtless it can be done in a destructive or exploitive way, but it need not me. If anything, prostitution is more honest than most acceptable sex games but, in that case, the bar is set so low that I don't think it warrants calling prostitutes particularly deserving of respect. That's where I seem to differ from many people. Now, there does seem to be a value set about how everyone deserves respect. I don't really buy that. There are plenty of people who do not deserve respect. Nor, do I think, that people who claim this really buy it, as their behaviors are not consistent with this idea.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

26th April 2012, 05:31 AM	#328
Daald Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 423	Originally Posted by epepke In the mean time, would you like to take a stab at addressing the question? It's a serious one. What is it about sex workers that makes them particularly deserving of respect? It is obvious to me that they did not mean that prostitution should automatically grant you respect but that it should not automatically disqualify you from it.

26th April 2012, 06:30 AM	#329
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	So if prostitution is just like any other job, why can´t a boss offer his secretary a raise in exchange for sex? Would it be sexual harassment? And if you offer money for sex to a prostitute it is not? Why, because the prostitute has already "declared" somehow that she does that kind of job? And a prostitute that in daytime works in an office, can her boss solicit sex from her?
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341

26th April 2012, 06:40 AM	#330
Lithrael Muse Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 773	Originally Posted by Abooga So if prostitution is just like any other job, why can´t a boss offer his secretary a raise in exchange for sex? Would it be sexual harassment? And if you offer money for sex to a prostitute it is not? Why, because the prostitute has already "declared" somehow that she does that kind of job? And a prostitute that in daytime works in an office, can her boss solicit sex from her? It'd be kind of like asking your secretary to fix the roof or some other work that has nothing to do with their job description, only with sexual overtones which would make it sexual harassment instead of regular harassment... It is indeed all about context I believe. Much in the same way that you can expect a diva to perform on stage but if you ask her to sing while she's trying to do her grocery shopping you are going to piss her off.
Lithrael Muse Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 773

26th April 2012, 06:51 AM	#331
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Originally Posted by Lithrael It'd be kind of like asking your secretary to fix the roof or some other work that has nothing to do with their job description, only with sexual overtones which would make it sexual harassment instead of regular harassment... It is indeed all about context I believe. Much in the same way that you can expect a diva to perform on stage but if you ask her to sing while she's trying to do her grocery shopping you are going to piss her off. If I ask my secretary to fix the roof she can just say "no, it is not in my job description" and nothing happens, unless I coerce her to do it. In the case of sex, just the suggestion of it could be illegal. I think there´s a difference. Please try to answer the other questions too.
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341

26th April 2012, 06:58 AM	#332
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,417	Originally Posted by Lithrael It'd be kind of like asking your secretary to fix the roof or some other work that has nothing to do with their job description, only with sexual overtones which would make it sexual harassment instead of regular harassment... It is indeed all about context I believe. Much in the same way that you can expect a diva to perform on stage but if you ask her to sing while she's trying to do her grocery shopping you are going to piss her off. It does raise the question of a job description of secretary with benefits.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th April 2012, 07:07 AM	#333
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by Lithrael It'd be kind of like asking your secretary to fix the roof or some other work that has nothing to do with their job description, Not sure about other jurisdictions - but here every single of my employment contracts stipulated that my employer could assign "other duties" to me, if it was in the companies interests to do so and if i was qualified for them. Quote: only with sexual overtones which would make it sexual harassment instead of regular harassment... I never did count how often a manager would approach me and ask me if I could do X, when X had nothing to do with my actual job. I doubt that I would have ever been able to convince a court that I had been harassed on any of those occasions. Quote: It is indeed all about context I believe. Much in the same way that you can expect a diva to perform on stage but if you ask her to sing while she's trying to do her grocery shopping you are going to piss her off. ... maybe so. But pissing someone off is not illegal per se. I could approach strangers in the street and ask them to sing - chances are, I would not go to jail for that.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

26th April 2012, 07:12 AM	#334
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,417	Originally Posted by Rasmus Not sure about other jurisdictions - but here every single of my employment contracts stipulated that my employer could assign "other duties" to me, if it was in the companies interests to do so and if i was qualified for them. I never did count how often a manager would approach me and ask me if I could do X, when X had nothing to do with my actual job. I doubt that I would have ever been able to convince a court that I had been harassed on any of those occasions. ... maybe so. But pissing someone off is not illegal per se. I could approach strangers in the street and ask them to sing - chances are, I would not go to jail for that. I can do the same with sex though as long as money is not involved.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th April 2012, 07:19 AM	#335
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle I can do the same with sex though as long as money is not involved. But I can ask people to sing for me for money - and if I do get in trouble, then it would be because of taxes, not harassment. And on those occasions were I did what m y managers asked for me, I was paid, too. Another singificant difference: I can be forced to take on jobs that I don't want to take or have my unemployment benefits taken away. But the unemployment agency cannot force me to work as a prostitute or a stripper, e.g., no matter how marketable my body may be... (I wonder if I could refuse to work as a masseur, assuming I was qualified, if I didin't want to touch other people, though.)
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

26th April 2012, 07:28 AM	#336
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,167	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle It does raise the question of a job description of secretary with benefits. As if upper management didn't already have all the perks.
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,167	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro Last edited by Polaris; 26th April 2012 at 07:28 AM. Reason: Quoted the wrong post.

26th April 2012, 07:28 AM	#337
Lithrael Muse Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 773	Fair objections. I can only imagine that it's still useful as a matter of convenience; if there were no chilling effect on guys soliciting random people for sex-for-cash they'd be doing it as often as they solicit random people for sex-for-no-cash... Yeah honestly I got nothing really. The main repercussion would probably be eye strain from the increased amounts of eyerolling the women would have to do.
Lithrael Muse Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 773

26th April 2012, 07:29 AM	#338
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,091	Originally Posted by Rasmus Indeed. Just think about how many other legal jobs are offered form the street. (And then not performed on the same street; since otherwise hot dog carts et al will ruin my point.) In Chicago the city busts hot dog carts all the time.
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26th April 2012, 07:42 AM	#339
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,417	Originally Posted by BenBurch In Chicago the city busts hot dog carts all the time. Chicago outlawed hotdog carts?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th April 2012, 07:46 AM	#340
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 31,996	Originally Posted by Abooga So if prostitution is just like any other job, why can´t a boss offer his secretary a raise in exchange for sex? Would it be sexual harassment? And if you offer money for sex to a prostitute it is not? Why, because the prostitute has already "declared" somehow that she does that kind of job? And a prostitute that in daytime works in an office, can her boss solicit sex from her? Wow, talk about trying to take this to the extreme absurd just to try to make the argument that prostitution is not like any other job. No, it wouldn't be sexual harassment. It would be simply unethical because, regardless of the fact that prostitution is just another job, you still can't go around having sex with your secretary without injuring the Company's image.
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan Last edited by Ron_Tomkins; 26th April 2012 at 07:49 AM.

26th April 2012, 07:46 AM	#341
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Chicago outlawed hotdog carts? Maybe unlicensed ones?
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26th April 2012, 07:49 AM	#342
Morrigan Crone of War Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,868	Originally Posted by Abooga So if prostitution is just like any other job, why can´t a boss offer his secretary a raise in exchange for sex? Would it be sexual harassment? And if you offer money for sex to a prostitute it is not? Why, because the prostitute has already "declared" somehow that she does that kind of job? And a prostitute that in daytime works in an office, can her boss solicit sex from her? If, as a programmer, my boss asked me to clean the toilets, I'd be pretty offended. Just saying.
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26th April 2012, 07:53 AM	#343
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,091	Originally Posted by crimresearch Maybe unlicensed ones? Yep. Health inspectors come and pour bleach on all the food and give the vendor a ticket.
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26th April 2012, 08:01 AM	#344
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins Wow, talk about trying to take this to the extreme absurd just to try to make the argument that prostitution is not like any other job. No, it wouldn't be sexual harassment. It would be simply unethical because, regardless of the fact that prostitution is just another job, you still can't go around having sex with your secretary without injuring the Company's image. "Reductio ad absurdum" is a valid type of argument. What wouldn´t be sexual harassment, which scenario of the ones I proposed?
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341

26th April 2012, 08:04 AM	#345
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 31,996	Originally Posted by Abooga "Reductio ad absurdum" is a valid type of argument. What wouldn´t be sexual harassment, which scenario of the ones I proposed? Did you bother reading my post? Apparently not, cause I never said anything about it being sexual harassment. In fact, I explicitly said it wouldn't be sexual harassment. Why don't you go read it again?
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan

26th April 2012, 08:14 AM	#346
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins Did you bother reading my post? Apparently not, cause I never said anything about it being sexual harassment. In fact, I explicitly said it wouldn't be sexual harassment. Why don't you go read it again? Take a chill pill dude. And read again.
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341

26th April 2012, 08:38 AM	#347
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 31,996	Originally Posted by Abooga Take a chill pill dude. And read again. For the umpteenth time, I never made the claim that the scenario of the sex worker secretary would be sexual harassment. So you asking "what wouldn't be sexual harassment" is irrelevant. No one made the claim that it would be sexual harassment. You're arguing with your own self. Again, take some time to actually read the post I made in response to you.
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan Last edited by Ron_Tomkins; 26th April 2012 at 08:40 AM.

26th April 2012, 08:41 AM	#348
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	SCENARIO 1: A boss offers his secretary a raise in exchange for sex? Would it be sexual harassment? SCENARIO 2: The boss leaves from work and offer money for sex to a street prostitute. Is it sexual harassment? SCENARIO 3: A prostitute that in daytime works in an office. If her boss in the office solicits sex from her, is it sexual harassment? If her pimp does it?
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341

26th April 2012, 08:48 AM	#349
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins For the umpteenth time, I never made the claim that the scenario of the sex worker secretary would be sexual harassment. So you asking "what wouldn't be sexual harassment" is irrelevant. No one made the claim that it would be sexual harassment. You're arguing with your own self. Again, take some time to actually read the post I made in response to you. Well, I thought that was understood that scenario 1 was the "ground scenario" (Is that how is it called? My english is not that good) Almost the very definition of sexual harassment. From wikipedia: "Sexual harassment is [...]the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors" So you´re saying that soliciting sex from an employee is not sexual harassment?
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Last edited by Abooga; 26th April 2012 at 08:49 AM.

26th April 2012, 08:58 AM	#350
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by Morrigan If, as a programmer, my boss asked me to clean the toilets, I'd be pretty offended. Just saying. But do you think if you went to court over it, it would do you any good in the end? Compensation? Punishment for your boss or anything of the sort? Me and my colleages were recently asked to take over some light cleaning in the office - the usual person was on vacation and there wasn't a replacement. Nobody seemed terribly offended.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

26th April 2012, 09:02 AM	#351
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 31,996	Originally Posted by Abooga SCENARIO 1: A boss offers his secretary a raise in exchange for sex? Would it be sexual harassment? SCENARIO 2: The boss leaves from work and offer money for sex to a street prostitute. Is it sexual harassment? SCENARIO 3: A prostitute that in daytime works in an office. If her boss in the office solicits sex from her, is it sexual harassment? If her pimp does it? So you seem to be arguing a completely different thing than you were before. One one hand, there's the argument that "prostitution is not like any other job" which was what you originally seemed to be implying. Then there's another, very different argument which is the one you're enforcing, and which goes like this "Can we even talk about sexual harassment when dealing with a prostitute?". In other words, since she is a prostitute, can we legally make insinuations and approaches on her at any time and any place we want, and always be able to get away with it without being accused of sexually harassing her on the grounds that she's a prostitute? The answer to that is no: Just because a woman is a prostitute doesn't mean you can't harass her sexually. She's still a human being and she still doesn't have to consent to sex with anyone who insinuates her. Besides, you're not your job. You're not defined as the job you do. There's this thing called "Context". A prostitute, like any other worker, has a schedule. Outside of her work schedule, she's just like any other woman, and yes, if you harass her in an elevator, you are sexually harassing a woman, regardless of the fact that she happens to work as a prostitute.
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan

26th April 2012, 09:10 AM	#352
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins So you seem to be arguing a completely different thing than you were before. One one hand, there's the argument that "prostitution is not like any other job" which was what you originally seemed to be implying. Then there's another, very different argument which is the one you're enforcing, and which goes like this "Can we even talk about sexual harassment when dealing with a prostitute?". In other words, since she is a prostitute, can we legally make insinuations and approaches on her at any time and any place we want, and always be able to get away with it without being accused of sexually harassing her on the grounds that she's a prostitute? The answer to that is no: Just because a woman is a prostitute doesn't mean you can't harass her sexually. She's still a human being and she still doesn't have to consent to sex with anyone who insinuates her. Besides, you're not your job. You're not defined as the job you do. There's this thing called "Context". A prostitute, like any other worker, has a schedule. Outside of her work schedule, she's just like any other woman, and yes, if you harass her in an elevator, you are sexually harassing a woman, regardless of the fact that she happens to work as a prostitute. Couldn´t you just play my game and answer the questions themseves? Well, I have to go now, I´ll see If I can come back later.
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341

26th April 2012, 09:19 AM	#353
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins Wow, talk about trying to take this to the extreme absurd just to try to make the argument that prostitution is not like any other job. No, it wouldn't be sexual harassment. It would be simply unethical because, regardless of the fact that prostitution is just another job, you still can't go around having sex with your secretary without injuring the Company's image. . Or yours, when your wife walks in on you banging away... Shouldn't dip your wick in the company inkwell... Especially if the Mrs. works there too.

26th April 2012, 09:32 AM	#354
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,417	Originally Posted by BenBurch Yep. Health inspectors come and pour bleach on all the food and give the vendor a ticket. And it is still completely irrelevant point to the one being made.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

26th April 2012, 09:44 AM	#355
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Originally Posted by epepke Whatever. I'm snarky toward a lot of people these days for reasons I consider good, and if you think I'm picking on @Bookitty, you should pay attention to what I say to Norwegians, pepper-spray advocates, johnny-come-latelies to object to Rush Limbaugh, and Christians these days. You may (and probably do) make whatever armchair psychoanalysis makes you happy, and if you are anything like most people, you will never question whether any of those analyses have anything to do with you. I had to tell some other wag this same thing once. Maybe you were that wag; I have a hard time remembering insignificant ~~people~~ events: Boo's a friend of mine. That makes it have something "to do with" me. Quote: But that's relatively boring, because there is no meaningful response beyond "it takes one to know one." In the mean time, would you like to take a stab at addressing the question? It's a serious one. What is it about sex workers that makes them particularly deserving of respect? They're people. I know, that's an alien concept to some. But there we are. They're not auto-scum; they don't, and shouldn't have to, take their concept of self from our opinion-bases; and because I happen to know one, and am going to have dinner with her tonight. Quote: I know that there are people who think that they automatically deserve disrespect, and I don't agree with such people. I do think that there are jobs that automatically deserve disrespect, Republican candidacy for President a fairly obvious example, but I don't have any reason to believe that prostitution is one of these. It doesn't appeal that much to me, but it is something that isn't much skin off my nose. Then there's one thing, at least, on which we can agree. Now, if you could back down from the playground taunting of Boo, then all would be right with the world.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642