Is it wrong to tell a child that god doesn't exist?

[Quad4_72]

So my wife, the lazy Christian, prays with my son whenever she puts him to bed (He is 5). While that is the extent of her practice of religion, my son got a hefty dose of religion when I deployed to Iraq and my wife and kids moved in with my parents for the 12 months I was gone. They made sure he made it to Sunday school and his little kids class every Thursday.

To be honest I didn't really care that much, because that's how I was raised and I eventually learned that religion was all made up anyways.

The thing is, one time I went to put my son to bed and he asked why we were not going to pray. I told him that Daddy doesn't believe in god. He looked confused and laughed at me like I was stupid (Very strange being laughed at by a five year old). I tried to explain to him that not everything a teacher tells him is always right, but he is already completely brainwashed his Sunday school classes.

I told my wife of the encounter, and she became furious at what I told him. She said it's not right to tell a kid at that age that god doesn't exist. My argument of was why is it alright that she teaches him her beliefs and I can't teach him mine?

I now just leave it alone, and my son understands that I am not going to pray with him at night. I will wait till he is older to really talk with him in depth about my beliefs (Or lack there of). So, what are your thoughts on telling children that god doesn't exist? Either with regards to my situation or a situation of your own.

[superfreddy]

The way I see it, the issue is not about your son but about your relationship with your wife. Whenever I deal with my wife, I ask myself "do I want to be right or do I want to be happy?" I always chose happy - keeps me sane

[Denver]

It seems almost impossible to comment on such an intimate family issue. If I were to suggest anything, it would be to just give your son good critical thinking skills as he develops, and let him come to his own conclusions.

[jiggeryqua]

My thought on seeing the thread title was "Are you the mother?". At least you're the father, but alas, despite umpteen decades of fighting for equality your view still doesn't count at all. So the answer is yes, you're wrong.

Besides, your wife is Christian, you manage to tolerate that. Would your attitude be different if your child was a girl?

[edge]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

So my wife, the lazy Christian, prays with my son whenever she puts him to bed (He is 5). While that is the extent of her practice of religion, my son got a hefty dose of religion when I deployed to Iraq and my wife and kids moved in with my parents for the 12 months I was gone. They made sure he made it to Sunday school and his little kids class every Thursday.

To be honest I didn't really care that much, because that's how I was raised and I eventually learned that religion was all made up anyways.

The thing is, one time I went to put my son to bed and he asked why we were not going to pray. I told him that Daddy doesn't believe in god. He looked confused and laughed at me like I was stupid (Very strange being laughed at by a five year old). I tried to explain to him that not everything a teacher tells him is always right, but he is already completely brainwashed his Sunday school classes.

I told my wife of the encounter, and she became furious at what I told him. She said it's not right to tell a kid at that age that god doesn't exist. My argument of was why is it alright that she teaches him her beliefs and I can't teach him mine?

I now just leave it alone, and my son understands that I am not going to pray with him at night. I will wait till he is older to really talk with him in depth about my beliefs (Or lack there of). So, what are your thoughts on telling children that god doesn't exist? Either with regards to my situation or a situation of your own.

In yellow: Try to keep this in mind about those who have taught you the opposite. In the eyes of a child you will see, do you know why?

[Cayvmann]

My daughter told me that she didn't believe in God or gods, and I said that I didn't either. I was raised in a church going family, she had been to church quite a bit ( my wife is a church goer ), it never really stuck with me, and she is following suite. I've never been good at lying to myself or others, so when I questioned religion and got the usual circular arguments, I quit trying to believe. I still went to church when the others did, I just didn't participate.

I don't argue religion with my wife. I usually know more about the whole bible than she does, but she has followed the leadership of her churches to focus on the subset that they feel comfortable with. I have no problem with her practicing, but I've told her not to preach to me. We'll see how that works out.

I also told my daughter that if she chooses to be religious that I am fine with that, but I doubt she will.

[madurobob]

I'm in a similar situation, just few years later. I didn't say "god doesn't exist" and didnt press the issue. But, whenever he (very rarely) brought it up my response was "I choose not to believe in things that are not real".

That, and as Denver said, a lot of pushing of critical thinking skills. My now 12yr old son is entirely areligious. But, he has been exposed to a wide variety of religious traditions, so he can better make up his own mind as an adult.

[Buckaroo]

As someone who came to atheism as an older teen, I can tell you that I would have saved myself numerous almost crippling existential crises had I shed the belief earlier in life. The transition becomes much more difficult the older one is when it occurs. I think you'd save your son much later pain if you nip religion in the bud now.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

My thought on seeing the thread title was "Are you the mother?". At least you're the father, but alas, despite umpteen decades of fighting for equality your view still doesn't count at all. So the answer is yes, you're wrong.

Besides, your wife is Christian, you manage to tolerate that. Would your attitude be different if your child was a girl?

I don't think my attitude would be different. Why would it matter?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Teach your son about experimentation. Offer to pray with him, and say, "Dear Jesus, if you are real, strike me dead." Then clutch your chest and fall to the floor, motionless.

That memory will last a lifetime.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by edge

In yellow: Try to keep this in mind about those who have taught you the opposite. In the eyes of a child you will see, do you know why?

I am not entirely sure what you are asking here.

[C_Felix]

If you are stating your opinion and backing up why you believe the way you do, what true harm are you doing?

Maybe a sit down with the three of you and each gets to say his/her piece.

[godless dave]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

The thing is, one time I went to put my son to bed and he asked why we were not going to pray. I told him that Daddy doesn't believe in god.

...

I told my wife of the encounter, and she became furious at what I told him. She said it's not right to tell a kid at that age that god doesn't exist.

You didn't tell him God doesn't exist. You told him you don't believe God exists. Those are two different statements.

Your wife is being ridiculous. You have just as much right to share your beliefs as she does to share hers.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo

As someone who came to atheism as an older teen, I can tell you that I would have saved myself numerous almost crippling existential crises had I shed the belief earlier in life. The transition becomes much more difficult the older one is when it occurs. I think you'd save your son much later pain if you nip religion in the bud now.

My plan is to insert various bits of critical thinking when it comes to religion the older he gets. I don't think I will be successful with a full blown logic session with my five year old at this point. Also, I am not sure if it warrants the fallout that would happen between my wife and I.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

Teach your son about experimentation. Offer to pray with him, and say, "Dear Jesus, if you are real, strike me dead." Then clutch your chest and fall to the floor, motionless.

That memory will last a lifetime.

Haha that seems a bit extreme. I like the concept though.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by C_Felix

If you are stating your opinion and backing up why you believe the way you do, what true harm are you doing?

Maybe a sit down with the three of you and each gets to say his/her piece.

This sounds like the worst idea ever haha. If you know religious types, you know this would most likely not end well (Even though my wife is a lazy Christian, she is still very confident god exists). I think perhaps using critical thinking over time may be the better approach.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by godless dave

You didn't tell him God doesn't exist. You told him you don't believe God exists. Those are two different statements.

Your wife is being ridiculous. You have just as much right to share your beliefs as she does to share hers.

Agreed. One thing I also struggle with is every time I hear my son talk about how Jesus loves him and how god is everywhere and blah blah. It's like nails on a chalkboard to me.

[Madalch]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

I am not entirely sure what you are asking here.

He's claiming that you only refuse to believe in God because you've been brainwashed, whereas your son Knows the Truth because he hasn't been brainwashed by Evil Atheists.

[corbin]

If you're kid is already that brainwashed about ANYTHING I think it's time to go into overdrive with the other side of the argument.

[Craig4]

Has he asked yet why you don't pray? At some point (I'm guessing not while he's five) you're going to have to tell him that there are lots of people in the world and they believe a lot of different things. I would say right now it's not a great idea to tell him there is no god. Depending on the packaging it might be okay to tell him when he asks why you don't pray with him though. There's a difference between "there is no god" and "not everyone believes in god".

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by Madalch

He's claiming that you only refuse to believe in God because you've been brainwashed, whereas your son Knows the Truth because he hasn't been brainwashed by Evil Atheists.

Oh damn, I just now got it lol. I have not been brainwashed by anyone EXCEPT religious types. Me realizing that religion was all made up came from my own doing. Granted it started in these forums, but not because I was brainwashed. It actually started with me countering the 9/11 Twoof idiots, which led me to critically think about other aspects of my life.

[Daald]

I would suggest introducing another religion. Make it clear that it is just a story and not true. At the very least it will create a comparison point.


*edit* When he gets older read the bible with him.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by Craig4

Has he asked yet why you don't pray? At some point (I'm guessing not while he's five) you're going to have to tell him that there are lots of people in the world and they believe a lot of different things. I would say right now it's not a great idea to tell him there is no god. Depending on the packaging it might be okay to tell him when he asks why you don't pray with him though. There's a difference between "there is no god" and "not everyone believes in god".

I actually covered this in the OP

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

The thing is, one time I went to put my son to bed and he asked why we were not going to pray. I told him that Daddy doesn't believe in god. He looked confused and laughed at me like I was stupid (Very strange being laughed at by a five year old). I tried to explain to him that not everything a teacher tells him is always right, but he is already completely brainwashed his Sunday school classes.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by Daald

I would suggest introducing another religion. Make it clear that it is just a story and not true. At the very least it will create a comparison point.


*edit* When he gets older read the bible with him.

Reading the Bible with him would indeed be an experience for him. I think he would be quite surprised at some of the craziness in that thing (When he gets older of course). I actually read a good bit of the Bible word for word, and I highlighted some of the crazy. My wife took a look at it when we were moving and asked what the deal was. I told her to read some of the highlighted portions. She was a little taken back by what was in it, but would not discuss it further.

[Antiquehunter]

As someone who is in a relationship with another who is not as strong an atheist as myself, I just would say - tread carefully.

You need first of all to bash this out with your wife (gently) and figure out a common ground that works for the two of you. While I personally don't see anything wrong with sharing your (lack of) beliefs with your son, while he hears another side of the story from your wife, this is something the two of you need to figure out, or it could seriously harm your relationship.

As regards what other people (Grandparents etc...) tell your kid, I think you are well within your rights to set ground rules around this - provided they are ground rules you have established between you and your wife together.

As you mentioned earlier, you (as did many of us) come to atheism after a religious upbringing. At the age of 5, probably not a lot of harm there, although by the ages of 8-12 I would think that being a sponge for learning, this is a very important time to make sure there is a healthy level of critical thinking skills being developed, and showing that there is no reason to not apply such skills to the idea of whether or not there is a god.

But more importantly, you need to have an open and frank discussion with your wife about this. On the one hand, there is no need to be so 'right' about something that you cannot sway somewhat, on the other, there is no need to roll over and play dead. Talking about it is absolutely critical in my opinion, or this could play out very poorly.

Best wishes!

[marplots]

"Is it wrong to tell a child that god doesn't exist?"

I'm pretty sure it's a sin of some sort or other.

[slingblade]

Originally Posted by marplots

"Is it wrong to tell a child that god doesn't exist?"

I'm pretty sure it's a sin of some sort or other.

Everything is.


I'd stress the critical thought, as others have said.

You started that when you told him teachers aren't always right. You were teaching him the "argument from authority" fallacy. Stay on that track, and compile some simple examples for him to think about.

Now that he's been introduced to indoctrination, the only way you're going to combat it is sidelong, not head-on. Emotionality and love/obedience to mother are now in play. So don't teach him what to think as she is doing.

Teach him how.

[Jack by the hedge]

Is it wrong to tell a child that ghosts don't exist?

Seriously, when they were about the same age as your son, I told our two (when they asked) that God was just pretend, but a lot of people thought he was really real, so they should be thoughtful as it might upset those people if you told them He wasn't real.

Little kids can grasp that.

[JoeBentley]

On any moral sense? Absolutely not. We are under no obligations to go along with falsehoods people foist upon their chidren.

In the practical sense it's just never a battle worth wading into.

[George152]

No.

[slingblade]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Is it wrong to tell a child that ghosts don't exist?

Seriously, when they were about the same age as your son, I told our two (when they asked) that God was just pretend, but a lot of people thought he was really real, so they should be thoughtful as it might upset those people if you told them He wasn't real.

Little kids can grasp that.

That's just too simplistic, though, Jack.

Religion comes with a LOT MORE baggage than many/most other woo/supernatural beliefs. You don't drive past churches to ghosts every 3 or 4 city blocks; you don't see public shrines to the tooth fairy; and you only have to worry about Santa-worship one month in 12.

Religion's just harder, more personal, too pervasive, too socially acceptable to treat the same way you'd treat the other childhood-common woo.

Needs heavy doses of crit thinking skills.


ETA: I emphasize this in the case of a child whose indoctrination is already well-advanced. You can't just tell him now that it's bunk. He bleeeeeves, and he's got Mom's support and continuing indoctrination.

[JoeBentley]

//Slight funny hijack//

I get crap for my atheism constantly, but I have never gotten such absolute vitriol over it as I did over the time on a message board that I just sorta suggested that maybe perhaps the rest of society isn't under any obligation to play along with the whole Santa thing and I as a rational adult shouldn't have to speak of a fictional character as if he was literally real in any scenario in which there is the slightest possibility that a child my overhear me.

My metaphorical non-existent God you would have thought I beat the Pope to death with a litter of Kittens in a sack made out of a burning American flag.

[Hecubas]

Sit down with the Brick Testament website with your son. That'll really get the wheels turning.

[Baloney]

I recommend this book: Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide for Young Skeptics by Dan Barker. I bought it for my son when he turned four years old. It subsequently became his favorite bedtime story. Help him to build his critical thinking skills and understand the requirements for evidence when making claims, and the results will be satisfactory.

Also, when he was younger and didn't want to sleep in his own bed, I made it a condition that he could go to sleep in my bed (later transferred to his own bed after falling asleep) by watching an episode of Carl Sagan's Cosmos with me (available on Netflix).

It should be said though, I'm of the opinion that being raised as a skeptic is much more valuable than being raised without religious beliefs. Without critical reasoning and skepticism, children are equally susceptible to bogus beliefs (such as homeopathy, magic, unicorns, etc.) beyond the ones found in religion.

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

I am not entirely sure what you are asking here.

Oh, that's easy. God exists. Even if he doesn't it's okay to lie to a kid. Lovely logic.

[jiggeryqua]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

I don't think my attitude would be different. Why would it matter?

I merely noted that you accepted faith in your wife, but not in your son. The obvious question was whether there was a gender distinction in operation. Hypothetically, no. Taking that, what is the difference?

[Jon.]

Originally Posted by Antiquehunter

You need first of all to bash this out with your wife (gently) and figure out a common ground that works for the two of you. While I personally don't see anything wrong with sharing your (lack of) beliefs with your son, while he hears another side of the story from your wife, this is something the two of you need to figure out, or it could seriously harm your relationship.

[snip]

But more importantly, you need to have an open and frank discussion with your wife about this. On the one hand, there is no need to be so 'right' about something that you cannot sway somewhat, on the other, there is no need to roll over and play dead. Talking about it is absolutely critical in my opinion, or this could play out very poorly.

Best wishes!

I agree 100%. Ideally, this conversation would have taken place before the son was even conceived, or before the marriage occurred, but better to deal with it now than later.

You obviously want to ensure that your son has at least equal exposure to your point of view, and that is understandable and fair. But if you feel like you have to hide it when you expose him to atheism, or critical thinking, then it will become a major source of friction in your marriage.

You need to get an agreement from your wife that, now that your son has been thoroughly exposed to Christian beliefs, it is time to ensure that he understands that other people have other beliefs, and that people's beliefs do not determine whether they are good people or bad people. After all, you are an atheist, and your wife (presumably) loves you; you wouldn't want your son growing up thinking that anyone who doesn't love Jesus is a bad person, and (I hope) your wife wouldn't either. The best way for him to understand is to show him that people he knows to be good (mommy and daddy) believe different things, but they are both good people and they love each other and respect each other's beliefs.

This is how my wife and I have proceeded in our marriage (coming up on our 15th anniversary). We have two kids, and they go to church with my wife when she goes (which is about one week out of three, on average), but it's a very liberal church. They also get exposed to lots of science (my wife has a PhD in a scientific field) and lots of mythology from other cultures as well as discussions about other religions. The result? My son, about to turn 9, is pretty skeptical generally and I'm pretty sure he'll be an atheist. My daughter, 6, is a big fan of Bible stories and church, but then again, she's also a big fan of Disney princesses and stories about fairies. I'm not sure she won't end up religious, but I won't love her any less if she does.

[MattusMaximus]

[devnull]

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

I merely noted that you accepted faith in your wife, but not in your son. The obvious question was whether there was a gender distinction in operation. Hypothetically, no. Taking that, what is the difference?

His wife is already indoctrinated, and an adult?


OP: My wife is catholic, Im an atheist. I pull no punches with my kids and reality. My wife has gotten used to it.

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by Daald

I would suggest introducing another religion. Make it clear that it is just a story and not true. At the very least it will create a comparison point.


*edit* When he gets older read the bible with him.

Convert to a religion that utterly incompatible with your wife's!

Actual Catholicism seems like a good choice, but you might want to go form seomething a little more entertaining and bizzare.