Is it wrong to tell a child that god doesn't exist?

[xjx388]

I fall on the side of this being a decision that should be made mutually. I think it was wrong for you to make such a provocative statement without first consulting your wife. You are raising this kid together so each side should get a say in what the kid learns.

Doing whatever you want (especially in regards to your children) against the wishes of your spouse is not conducive to long relationships. Besides that, it's disrespectful to the woman you (presumably) still love despite the difference in belief.

You guys should have a long conversation about what's important to you and your family. Come to a decision based on what's best for making your family stronger -not what a bunch of skeptics think should be best.

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by xjx388

I fall on the side of this being a decision that should be made mutually. I think it was wrong for you to make such a provocative statement without first consulting your wife.

Pardon?

He only said, essentially "well, I do not belive in God". How is that a provocative statement?

And how do you put that together with the fact that mommy is praying with the child - how is that not at least as provocative?

Quote:

You are raising this kid together so each side should get a say in what the kid learns.

Yes. How does that work, though, if openly stating one's own beliefs is considered "provocative"?

Quote:

Doing whatever you want (especially in regards to your children) against the wishes of your spouse is not conducive to long relationships. Besides that, it's disrespectful to the woman you (presumably) still love despite the difference in belief.

Which thread have you been reading? It certainly wasn't this one!

Quote:

You guys should have a long conversation about what's important to you and your family. Come to a decision based on what's best for making your family stronger -not what a bunch of skeptics think should be best.

Oh yes, don't go ask the rational people for advise ...

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by xjx388

I fall on the side of this being a decision that should be made mutually. I think it was wrong for you to make such a provocative statement without first consulting your wife. You are raising this kid together so each side should get a say in what the kid learns.

Doing whatever you want (especially in regards to your children) against the wishes of your spouse is not conducive to long relationships. Besides that, it's disrespectful to the woman you (presumably) still love despite the difference in belief.

You guys should have a long conversation about what's important to you and your family. Come to a decision based on what's best for making your family stronger -not what a bunch of skeptics think should be best.

I think you may have read the OP too quickly. I never said that my wife should not teach my son religion. I have never protested when she took him to Sunday school while I was deployed, or that she prays with him at night. I merely stated that "Daddy does not believe in god." She was actually the one who was incredibly intolerant of my beliefs. Just re-read the OP and it will make more sense.

[Baloney]

Originally Posted by Morrigan

I could never, ever, ever date a religious person let alone marry one, and having kids with one is just.... gah. Total dealbreaker for me. I get that I'm probably alone in this, though.

You are not alone.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Pardon?

He only said, essentially "well, I do not belive in God". How is that a provocative statement?

And how do you put that together with the fact that mommy is praying with the child - how is that not at least as provocative?

It's all about the context. As the OP has stated, he was Christian when he got married but changed his mind at some point. His wife is still Christian. To tell their child that he doesn't believe in God is the very definition of provocative in this context. To wit: his wife's reaction.

You are looking at it as an outsider to the family. In that case the statement is not provocative at all. But context is everything.

Quote:

Yes. How does that work, though, if openly stating one's own beliefs is considered "provocative"?

It works by talking about how they will approach the subject before they actually do approach the subject. They can come to an agreement and proceed accordingly. They might decide that it's best for Daddy to talk about his beliefs and Mommy to talk about hers. Or they might decide that Daddy should just keep quiet until the kid is older. Or they might decide something else entirely. Whatever they decide, it should be decided together and implemented together.

Quote:

Which thread have you been reading? It certainly wasn't this one!

Not sure what I said that provoked this response. . .

Quote:

Oh yes, don't go ask the rational people for advise ...

He's married to a Christian. What skeptics think about religion is irrelevant.

[Tatyana]

Originally Posted by Rasmus

That's not the issue here, though - or which of these gods would you tell your child were real? Which ones would you pray to with your child?

You don't tell them anything, you let them make up their own mind.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

I think you may have read the OP too quickly. I never said that my wife should not teach my son religion. I have never protested when she took him to Sunday school while I was deployed, or that she prays with him at night. I merely stated that "Daddy does not believe in god." She was actually the one who was incredibly intolerant of my beliefs. Just re-read the OP and it will make more sense.

I get that. My only point is that before you stated your beliefs to your kid, you should have consulted with your wife as to how you both decide would be the best way to proceed. The default in your marriage was Christianity; you were Christian when you married. I just think it's a little unfair to change the game on your wife mid-stream.

Just my opinion though, based on my own "mistake" in my marriage. My wife and I divorced briefly because of a very similar circumstance. As it turned out, we reunited a year and a half later with the understanding that the kids would go to Church until they decided not to and that, while I wasn't going to be antagonistic about it, I would be open and honest if the kids asked what my beliefs were and why I didn't go to church. They are 23 and 18 now and neither one of them has been to church in a few years. My wife persists in her belief but has since lapsed in her practice.

That's what worked for us, but I would never presume that it would work for you. That's why I encouraged a good long conversation about the subject.

[Jon.]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

I was not an atheist before I married her. I was a Christian.

This does make a difference, in my opinion. You have changed and are not (sorry to trot out an old cliche) the man she married. You need to sit down with her ASAP and work out how you can parent the child with respect to religious matters without disrespecting the beliefs of either parent. As I said in my earlier post, I believe it can be done, if both parties truly respect each other and want to make it work. If, on the other hand, she resents the fact that you became an atheist (I'm not saying that she does, but I don't know), it might be harder to find a mutually respectful and acceptable solution.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by xjx388

I get that. My only point is that before you stated your beliefs to your kid, you should have consulted with your wife as to how you both decide would be the best way to proceed. The default in your marriage was Christianity; you were Christian when you married. I just think it's a little unfair to change the game on your wife mid-stream.

Just my opinion though, based on my own "mistake" in my marriage. My wife and I divorced briefly because of a very similar circumstance. As it turned out, we reunited a year and a half later with the understanding that the kids would go to Church until they decided not to and that, while I wasn't going to be antagonistic about it, I would be open and honest if the kids asked what my beliefs were and why I didn't go to church. They are 23 and 18 now and neither one of them has been to church in a few years. My wife persists in her belief but has since lapsed in her practice.

That's what worked for us, but I would never presume that it would work for you. That's why I encouraged a good long conversation about the subject.

She has known that I have not been christian for a long time. There is no default, and she knows my beliefs. I do not need permission from any individual on this planet to state my beliefs to anyone. While yes, we need to sit down and have a conversation, the topic of the conversation will never be whether or not I can voice my "lack" of beliefs.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by Jon.

This does make a difference, in my opinion. You have changed and are not (sorry to trot out an old cliche) the man she married. You need to sit down with her ASAP and work out how you can parent the child with respect to religious matters without disrespecting the beliefs of either parent. As I said in my earlier post, I believe it can be done, if both parties truly respect each other and want to make it work. If, on the other hand, she resents the fact that you became an atheist (I'm not saying that she does, but I don't know), it might be harder to find a mutually respectful and acceptable solution.

If there are issues, they are all on her end. I do not prohibit my son from believing in any religions. I simply tell him MY beliefs. He can go to church all he wants.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

She has known that I have not been christian for a long time. There is no default, and she knows my beliefs. I do not need permission from any individual on this planet to state my beliefs to anyone. While yes, we need to sit down and have a conversation, the topic of the conversation will never be whether or not I can voice my "lack" of beliefs.

Understood. You are, of course, correct. But sometimes there are more important considerations than being correct. It is admittedly a delicate situation which took a pretty radical solution in my case. Hopefully, yours won't come to that.

Good luck!

[Dunstan]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Understood. You are, of course, correct. But sometimes there are more important considerations than being correct. It is admittedly a delicate situation which took a pretty radical solution in my case. Hopefully, yours won't come to that.

Good luck!

I think it's very dismissive to bring this down to the OP's supposed desire to be "correct," as if he was arguing over the right way the toilet paper should hang from the holder, or proposing to tell his wife that she really does look fat in that dress.

Being told that you should act like your personal beliefs, on an important subject that your child asked you about, are some filthy little secret that Shall Not Be Mentioned In Front of the Children is a quite different matter altogether.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by xjx388

But sometimes there are more important considerations than being correct.

Like, for example, having a say in how your child is raised, whether you are obliged to lie to your child, and whether you have a right to voice your opinion. Those kinds of things are more important considerations than being correct.

[sgtbaker]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Understood. You are, of course, correct. But sometimes there are more important considerations than being correct. It is admittedly a delicate situation which took a pretty radical solution in my case. Hopefully, yours won't come to that.

Good luck!

This very much sounds like the undue politeness that people of the Christian faith tend to expect. There are two parents in that relationship. Is there any reason why one should hide his/her beliefs, over another?

[Minoosh]

Others have pointed out the difference between telling the kid "I don't belief in God" and "there is no God." The thread title says one thing and the actual post another. I don't see any problem telling the kid you don't believe in God.

I haven't seen anyone point out that being away from the family for a year is bound to skew the kid toward the view of his caretakers. But not inevitably, and not forever, for reasons touched on: I think the tendency toward belief, and a particular style of belief, is at least partly genetic. I got behavioral cues as a kid - Mom went to church, Dad didn't but she didn't seem worried about him going to hell. (The Church of Christ thought just about everyone was going to hell). It didn't compute for me, ever. It just seemed self-evident that God wouldn't go to all this trouble to create us just to toss us in the flames. I didn't reason myself into this position, not consciously, but I probably held it before I was 5. I can remember pretty far back and I don't remember believing in anything.

If I'd been exposed to a more liberal Christian tradition maybe I would have found it more compelling.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Understood. You are, of course, correct. But sometimes there are more important considerations than being correct. It is admittedly a delicate situation which took a pretty radical solution in my case. Hopefully, yours won't come to that.

Good luck!

Like others have said, it's not about being right, it's about respect. I have respect for her beliefs, she needs to have the same respect for mine.

[Quad4_72]

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Others have pointed out the difference between telling the kid "I don't belief in God" and "there is no God." The thread title says one thing and the actual post another. I don't see any problem telling the kid you don't believe in God.

I haven't seen anyone point out that being away from the family for a year is bound to skew the kid toward the view of his caretakers. But not inevitably, and not forever, for reasons touched on: I think the tendency toward belief, and a particular style of belief, is at least partly genetic. I got behavioral cues as a kid - Mom went to church, Dad didn't but she didn't seem worried about him going to hell. (The Church of Christ thought just about everyone was going to hell). It didn't compute for me, ever. It just seemed self-evident that God wouldn't go to all this trouble to create us just to toss us in the flames. I didn't reason myself into this position, not consciously, but I probably held it before I was 5. I can remember pretty far back and I don't remember believing in anything.

If I'd been exposed to a more liberal Christian tradition maybe I would have found it more compelling.

The year my son spent with my parents while I was deployed is what has him completely brainwashed. Even when I try and break the world down in the simplest form, telling him how not everything teachers tell him are correct, he won't have any of it. He likes to say "Well god is invisible which is why no one can see him". I mean how do you get in a rational discussion with a five year old?

[Paulhoff]

Originally Posted by edge

In yellow: Try to keep this in mind about those who have taught you the opposite. In the eyes of a child you will see, do you know why?

The eyes of a child are given way to much credit by some.

Paul

[Paulhoff]

One should show a child how to ask the right questions, this isn't easy, but telling a child to question EVERYTHING and not to except Answers that are not to be Questioned is good start.

Paul

[Baloney]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

He likes to say "Well god is invisible which is why no one can see him". I mean how do you get in a rational discussion with a five year old?

Easy! Are fairies real? Are pink invisible unicorns real? They're there, you just can't see them. Just like Thor.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by Quad4_72

The year my son spent with my parents while I was deployed is what has him completely brainwashed. Even when I try and break the world down in the simplest form, telling him how not everything teachers tell him are correct, he won't have any of it. He likes to say "Well god is invisible which is why no one can see him". I mean how do you get in a rational discussion with a five year old?

You need to brush up on the cognitive abilities of a five year old. They are inclined towards believing in imaginary things at this age. And he will grow out of it.

Still don't get what the big deal is except the fact that nearly every time you post about your wife the level of disrespect dripping in the posts is potent.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0308101309.htm


It's actually beneficial in other ways for small children to "Believe in God" so if you could just put aside the "beliefs" cock block mentality you might actually get over all the angst.

Many atheists were raised as believers, if we had had a parent calmly telling us along the way that it wasn't true it would have been better. But I can't at all see how a father of a child denigrating the mother for her beliefs constantly will do anything but cause harm in the future of the child.

As a the mother of two sons from a previous marriage, my kids respect a diversity of beliefs and I have never treated their father and his beliefs with anything but respect while at the same time expressing my own beliefs and giving my kids exposure to facts. My kids are 18 and 16 now and are decent human beings in this regard. I have watched over the years many selfish parents treat their child's other parent with disrespect and it has always created young adults who are disrespectful of beliefs that are different than their own. All of this is always based on the parents EGO in wanting to put down the other parent. It's pure selfishness and has nothing to do with ethics or morals or teaching their kid the right thing no matter how much said parent tries to cloak it as such.

[Baloney]

Originally Posted by truethat

You need to brush up on the cognitive abilities of a five year old. They are inclined towards believing in imaginary things at this age. And he will grow out of it.

Personal experience has shown me that engendering critical thinking in children at a very early age inclines them towards a DISbelief in imaginary things. Five year olds are also inclined towards starving to death if you don't provide them with food -- the same reason applies towards imaginary beliefs, it seems. In other words, why force them to "grow out of it" when you can correct their inclinations with education? Young kids (i.e., under six) are much more cognitively capable than that, and relying on their inclinations is a cop-out, I think.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by Baloney

Personal experience has shown me that engendering critical thinking in children at a very early age inclines them towards a DISbelief in imaginary things. Five year olds are also inclined towards starving to death if you don't provide them with food -- the same reason applies towards imaginary beliefs, it seems. In other words, why force them to "grow out of it" when you can correct their inclinations with education? Young kids (i.e., under six) are much more cognitively capable than that, and relying on their inclinations is a cop-out, I think.

One of my kids is atheist though being raised as a Muslim, the other one is culturally into Islam more than spiritually. I've always told them the reality that there is no God and showed them the different religious beliefs of people around the world including those that don't believe in gods and even Scientology. Educating your child about religion is just part of showing them the reality of the way people believe in the world.

When someone is a new atheist they tend to lash out at the people that brainwashed them which is understandable, but also lash out at others who are still brainwashed. It's an unfair position in my mind. If you are an atheist you are ahead of the game in educating your child. It's one thing to teach kids the truth and quite another to teach kids that believers are deserving of disrespect.

I consider how I felt when I believed. I sometimes have to use that to remind myself because the longer I've been an atheist the more shocked I am that people actually truly do believe in total BS.


As to the cognitive abilities of a five year old, I tend to go along with Piaget. It doesn't mean you don't expose them to more sophisticated ideas, but most young children are not precocious and all they will learn from sneering at someone's beliefs is that this is acceptable behavior.

In fact I find it no accident that newly aware atheists that come from Fundy families tend to treat others with such disrespect for having "different beliefs" because that is exactly what they were taught as children. Only then it was sneering at non Christians. All they've done is take that ugliness and turn it back around at believers.

[slingblade]

Originally Posted by truethat

One of my kids is atheist though being raised as a Muslim, the other one is culturally into Islam more than spiritually. I've always told them the reality that there is no God and showed them the different religious beliefs of people around the world including those that don't believe in gods and even Scientology. Educating your child about religion is just part of showing them the reality of the way people believe in the world.

When someone is a new atheist they tend to lash out at the people that brainwashed them which is understandable, but also lash out at others who are still brainwashed. It's an unfair position in my mind. If you are an atheist you are ahead of the game in educating your child. It's one thing to teach kids the truth and quite another to teach kids that believers are deserving of disrespect.

I consider how I felt when I believed. I sometimes have to use that to remind myself because the longer I've been an atheist the more shocked I am that people actually truly do believe in total BS.


As to the cognitive abilities of a five year old, I tend to go along with Piaget. It doesn't mean you don't expose them to more sophisticated ideas, but most young children are not precocious and all they will learn from sneering at someone's beliefs is that this is acceptable behavior.

In fact I find it no accident that newly aware atheists that come from Fundy families tend to treat others with such disrespect for having "different beliefs" because that is exactly what they were taught as children. Only then it was sneering at non Christians. All they've done is take that ugliness and turn it back around at believers.

These words do not reflect Quad's point of view nor his actions.

These words are antagonistic towards Quad, disguised as "just trying to help"

These words are indicative of a deep level of misunderstanding the issue.



And all of my words above will do no good, advance no point, provide no understanding whatsoever. Previous experience bears this out.

[godless dave]

Truethat, how about actually reading the OP before posting a response?

[truethat]

The first words in describe his wife as a "lazy Christian" and if I'm mistaken I apologize but I do remember another thread of his where he basically spent the entire thread trashing his wife.

[slingblade]

Originally Posted by truethat

The first words in describe his wife as a "lazy Christian" and if I'm mistaken I apologize but I do remember another thread of his where he basically spent the entire thread trashing his wife.

So how about you stop trying to be his marriage counselor?

[truethat]

So I'm not mistaken?

[godless dave]

Originally Posted by truethat

The first words in describe his wife as a "lazy Christian"

So what?

He means she claims to be a Christian but doesn't actually go to church or spend much time on it.

[godless dave]

Originally Posted by truethat

So I'm not mistaken?

You seem mistaken to me. And also just making stuff up.

[slingblade]

Originally Posted by truethat

So I'm not mistaken?

So strawman miss the point entirely unable to admit when you're wrong much?

His marriage or the state thereof is not the issue and none of your business.

[truethat]

Slingblade you know damn well when I'm wrong I admit it. And pretty quickly btw, unlike you waiting over a year to apologize to me.

He put this out there and a previous example that I spoke of and to me, my widdle opinion, he seems to speak of his wife with a lot of disrespect.

The question is how two different religious views can co parent. I have done so with my kids and it's worked out fine.

I do believe that sharing my perspective is helpful. And I do believe that the palpable disrespect with which he speaks of his wife is going to be much more damaging on his son's future that sharing two different religious views in the same house.

I know many families with differing religious views in the same house, Christian and Jewish, Catholic and Jewish, Baptist and Catholic, Atheist and Jewish, Muslim and Christian, Muslim and Atheist, Atheist and Buddhist, Buddhist and Muslim etc etc etc.

It's very rare in fact these days not to know someone with different religious views in the same house.

And that usually is not that big of a deal to children. What is a problem is when parents treat the other parent's views with derision and disrespect.

So get off my back.

[slingblade]

Done. Ignored.

[godless dave]

Originally Posted by truethat

And that usually is not that big of a deal to children. What is a problem is when parents treat the other parent's views with derision and disrespect.

So get off my back.

Derision and disrespect is how the OP's wife treats the OP's beliefs.

How he speaks about his wife here (which isn't all that disrespectful) is not going to have any effect on his son, unless his son is reading comments on the JREF forum, which I kind of doubt.

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by truethat

Slingblade you know damn well when I'm wrong I admit it. And pretty quickly btw, unlike you waiting over a year to apologize to me.

He put this out there and a previous example that I spoke of and to me, my widdle opinion, he seems to speak of his wife with a lot of disrespect.

The question is how two different religious views can co parent. I have done so with my kids and it's worked out fine.

I do believe that sharing my perspective is helpful. And I do believe that the palpable disrespect with which he speaks of his wife is going to be much more damaging on his son's future that sharing two different religious views in the same house.

I know many families with differing religious views in the same house, Christian and Jewish, Catholic and Jewish, Baptist and Catholic, Atheist and Jewish, Muslim and Christian, Muslim and Atheist, Atheist and Buddhist, Buddhist and Muslim etc etc etc.

It's very rare in fact these days not to know someone with different religious views in the same house.

And that usually is not that big of a deal to children. What is a problem is when parents treat the other parent's views with derision and disrespect.

So get off my back.

You seem to have read a different OP than the rest of us. I read that a father was afraid to be honest about his own thoughts and feelings with his child because of his wife's anger. You saw something different.

I agree that animosity between parents is potentially much more damaging than any squabble over religion, but I never saw the attitude you say the OP exhibits towards his wife.

[truethat]

Like I said, it's based on the other thread where he basically treated her like an idiot through the entire thread because he became atheist after they were married. IF it's the same thread I'm thinking about. Perhaps it's a bit knee jerk on my behavior, but seeing several threads about how she's a crap Christian stomping on his view, well call me a cynic but there seems to be something deeper in all of this. That is he woke up to atheism after being married and is often stationed over seas and away from his child so he's not in the same position as a typical parent and at the mercy of his family and wife honoring his views.

They don't seem to. But his hostility seems to be what's the hingepin in all this. There's another post in this thread where another poster pointed out that one of his children felt he tried to push atheism on him even though the poster didn't mean it that way.

So it's a tricky subject. Bottom line is that both sides have to respect each other.

Perhaps I took "lazy Christian" as more disrespectful than he intended it but it was a red flag to me.


and godless dave you must not have kids if you don't think kids will pick up on this kind of thing without "reading about it on a message board."

Obviously this is going to be a sensitive issue to deal with. But lack of respect on her part doesn't justify lack of respect on his.

[TheGoldcountry]

I think the fact that he came here asking for help does him a lot of credit. Obviously he is seeking the best solution, I don't think attacking him is helping anyone.

(and I think "lazy Christian" is a common term that we all understand, I don't consider that an attack on his spouse.)

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by truethat

The question is how two different religious views can co parent. I have done so with my kids and it's worked out fine.

If and when one of your children asked you about your personal views on God and religion, did you feel coerced to respond contrary to your own beliefs because you feared the reaction of their father?

[truethat]

Ok found the thread and it's funny it's basically the exact same thread as this one with people commenting about his tone towards his wife.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...=Quad4_72+wife

The Goldcountry I do not treat my ex husband as if he is "brainwashed" and trying to "brainwash" my kid.

That to me is very disrespectful. I understand that Quad feels brainwashed but it's hugely disrespectful to tell a parent that they are doing this. And it's clear he feels this way. If he does she's going to pick up on it.

It's same issue that he talked about last year. So obviously it's not to do with the religious beliefs.

I told my kids about all religious beliefs etc. But actually at such a young age it's not that big of a deal. The child has plenty of time to learn. This is not about the child or the religious beliefs IMO. It's about a new atheist being disrespectful to his believer wife.

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by truethat

Ok found the thread and it's funny it's basically the exact same thread as this one with people commenting about his tone towards his wife.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...=Quad4_72+wife

The Goldcountry I do not treat my ex husband as if he is "brainwashed" and trying to "brainwash" my kid.

That to me is very disrespectful. I understand that Quad feels brainwashed but it's hugely disrespectful to tell a parent that they are doing this. And it's clear he feels this way. If he does she's going to pick up on it.

It's same issue that he talked about last year. So obviously it's not to do with the religious beliefs.

I told my kids about all religious beliefs etc. But actually at such a young age it's not that big of a deal. The child has plenty of time to learn. This is not about the child or the religious beliefs IMO. It's about a new atheist being disrespectful to his believer wife.

OK, you defeated your strawman and ignored the main question I was asking. I'll just quit. Neither you nor I is contributing at this point.

ETA: Sorry, but I had to address this point. It IS a big deal. I was raised as a believer, and it took years of deprogramming myself. Why should belief be the default position?