The mythology of dismissive skeptics and the JREF

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Careyp74

ETA: I still think you are a little lax though in backing up your assessment of others, like the aspergers comment.

I don't have aspergers but I do have trigger items I go berserk over.

[RSLancastr]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth I

Nobody would kick me in the balls.

They might,if you were both in a McDonald's Playland!

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by BravesFan

If I had one criticism of this forum, it's that sometimes people here go a little "evidence" overboard in areas that don't require evidence.

If I say "I can turn my head 360 degrees like The exorcist movie" for you to buy this, I would be required to provide evidence. I have made a statement of fact.

If i say " I'm not a big fan of women in the infantry" I have stated an opinion, but then I get bombarded with claims of evidence. When the only evidence is ,"I'm not a fan"....

I also think that plenty of members seem to forget critical thinking when it comes to their political beliefs and go into "support the party at all costs" mode. (like when discussing election stuff and political methods like only one side is guilty of doing it....when we all know this stuff is older than Caesar)

Hopefully, a good number of us know the fact/opinion thing (though some people cannot get over trying to force opinion givers into defending their opinion with facts) !!!

[BravesFan]

Originally Posted by fuelair

Hopefully, a good number of us know the fact/opinion thing (though some people cannot get over trying to force opinion givers into defending their opinion with facts) !!!

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not....... lol I think I need to go to bed

[AttorneyTom]

Originally Posted by BravesFan

I see it all the time on here where noobs pop in with their latest take on woo (bleevers in said woo or not ) and then when they receive the usual"yeah that's just a load of crap" response we so often give, they get defensive and angry and say we aren't being proper skeptics.

Let me tell you who think this, you are wrong.


i understand, however, how it might seem this way to you though. You have just arrived fresh and clean to this new and exciting forum where there's discussion of all these weird and interesting things and you have some beliefs and/or information you are ready to share and!...... you kinda get the hand wave. So you think that we just do that to everyone. We don't.

The difference is that many of us have been here for a long time (i myself only a a member for a few months but I lurked here for 2 years) others have been here for a reallly long time, so they have seen and heard it all before.

What seems as a new and interesting subject to you (say demons ) to the board regulars may seem like so old hat as to not be really worthy of discussion. They have debunked it, gone through the "evidence" and squashed it flat. now if you have something NEW to share, well by all means put it out there! But don't expect everyone to buy into your theories if you can't back them up with a bit of science.

So, I would suggest to not make a bunch of new threads about these sorts of things but rather do a search and bring an old dead thread on the topic back to life. It will pop up on the old posters page and remind them, might get you more responses too.

Unless you are here peddling more 9/11 nonsense, then I reckon it's free reign... sorry

Just me. But sometimes what happens is that you can only follow a thread for so long.. or so many and perhaps the new person doesnt know what has gone on .. or who have posted or what they have posted ?

My problem is that some of the "elders" seem to think they own this Board.. Topic.. Forum.. a Thread.

They may be skeptics but sometimes they immediately jump on someone new without really listening or trying to understand and also putting themselves in the shoes of what someone is posting. I find this non logical and unintellectual.

Obviously, the wacky folks are pretty easy to spot after a few questions. (Really they are ).

But when we have folks come on board and they add things and then.. well you know there are negative attacks.. . and they are not wacky ? It doesnt bode well for the Forum ? By negative attacks I simply mean by calling them out as "non skeptics". I think we all can figure that out on our own.
Finally, the other thing that I have seen is that even if someone posts something that is pertinent to a topic... it is ignored and treated like it does not matter ? Sure, maybe that has already been covered but in MHOP please let the poster know the same in a polite manner ?

I dont know.. just my thoughts. I am sure there are others with their own which I will respect.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by BravesFan

No I get that (I have a friend who is a believer that psychic activity exists, so I always ask him for proof). But sometimes it seems we can't just have a normal conversation on here without somebody freaking out and asking for evidence.

BTW, I'm not referring to a normal debate on an issue, but sometimes we just want to be able to discuss something without googling it .

What drives me nuts about this is that half the time someone JUST googled it, so they have no frame of reference and can't actually vouch for the credibility. I mean when some smartass comes on and posts a LMGTFY post about a question I've asked I know right there they are a moron because that is the most BS way to try to back up a statement.

I'd much rather just read what a person's ideas are all about and then take the time to look into it later. As well, some ideas are new and unfounded and so could benefit from the direction of other more well versed posters as to what to study or examine.

Originally Posted by BravesFan

Number one, I am not going to start a war with someone by listing their posts here as evidence for someone being a bit ...excessive. I hope you can understand that.

Number two, sweet Jesus i had no intention of this turning into a discussion like this. This was intended to point out to noobs who come here that when people casually dismiss their woo it isn't because they aren't proper skeptics, it's because they've seen it all before.

Number three, my above scenario happens very infrequently, but it has happened. I have also been attacked by the "mob" as it were for having an OPINION on a moral issue that differed from theirs, when asked why, I gave sufficient reasons, but instead of agreeing to disagree It turned into a torches and pitchforks session, with made up conclusions based on my posts (which weren't true) and it got nasty. (if you are interested enough you can PM me and i will discuss it there, it's not right to discuss other's posts in a negative light in a different thread IMO)


I have a lot of fun here, i learn a lot of stuff here, I have seen the craziest ideas created in the world in the CT threads here. That doesn't mean that sometimes folks shouldn't lighten up a bit.

I see that it has already been done to you in this thread. This site seems to have a whole lot of skeptics and page citers but few actual critical thinkers and I do think that's a downfall. When a new person comes on they are often treated with derision and scorn as if they are pretending to be critical of an idea when, as you say, they have just come to a conclusion. They are new to the idea.

[AttorneyTom]

Originally Posted by truethat

What drives me nuts about this is that half the time someone JUST googled it, so they have no frame of reference and can't actually vouch for the credibility. I mean when some smartass comes on and posts a LMGTFY post about a question I've asked I know right there they are a moron because that is the most BS way to try to back up a statement.

I'd much rather just here what a person's ideas are all about and then take the time to look into it later. As well, some ideas are new and unfounded and so could benefit from the direction of other more well versed posters as to what to study or examine.




I see that it has already been done to you in this thread. This site seems to have a whole like of skeptics and page citers but few actual critical thinkers and I do think that's a downfall. When a new person comes on they are often treated with derision and scorn as if they are pretending to be critical of an idea when, as you say, they have just come to a conclusion. They are new to the idea.

Just give a new person the benefit of the doubt. Then go off on them. Whatever it is... Be kind.

[AttorneyTom]

Originally Posted by AttorneyTom

Just give a new person the benefit of the doubt. Then go off on them. Whatever it is... Be kind.

It is not a "very friendly site" that is for sure ! I was hoping when I joined it would be a bit different. What I have seen and experienced is a bit of arrogance and certainly not a welcoming group of older (Forum Member date of joining )folks. That is okay... but it could be so different so easily.

Hey dont know anything.. and I surely am not on this site to prove that I know things or to impress anyone with my knowledge. I have been here since Feb. of this year and I think that only one person actually said hello to me. That was ABF, I think. Thank You for that.

This thing is fun.. but man.. no manners !

Edit: If anything those that have been here longer should be ambassadeurs to the site.

[truethat]

Originally Posted by AttorneyTom

It is not a "very friendly site" that is for sure ! I was hoping when I joined it would be a bit different. What I have seen and experienced is a bit of arrogance and certainly not a welcoming group of older (Forum Member date of joining )folks. That is okay... but it could be so different so easily.

Hey dont know anything.. and I surely am not on this site to prove that I know things or to impress anyone with my knowledge. I have been here since Feb. of this year and I think that only one person actually said hello to me. That was ABF, I think. Thank You for that.

This thing is fun.. but man.. no manners !

Edit: If anything those that have been here longer should be ambassadeurs to the site.

Well no, and I have to tell you it doesn't get much better as time goes on. As you can see I've been here a while. However this site is hands down more intelligent than pretty much any other site out there. And there are a lot of very intelligent people on this site. The ignore feature is amazing. It completely removes the post, you won't even know it is there and it's wonderful.

I would recommend not worrying about manners and just accepting that there are a bunch of introverts on here that may struggle with social skills. I btw will likely come across as patronizing and rude when it's just fatigue at having to explain myself.

Also keep in mind there are very many teenagers on here who don't necessarily reveal themselves that way, so be a bit patient.

[AttorneyTom]

Originally Posted by truethat

Well no, and I have to tell you it doesn't get much better as time goes on. As you can see I've been here a while. However this site is hands down more intelligent than pretty much any other site out there. And there are a lot of very intelligent people on this site. The ignore feature is amazing. It completely removes the post, you won't even know it is there and it's wonderful.

I would recommend not worrying about manners and just accepting that there are a bunch of introverts on here that may struggle with social skills. I btw will likely come across as patronizing and rude when it's just fatigue at having to explain myself.

Also keep in mind there are very many teenagers on here who don't necessarily reveal themselves that way, so be a bit patient.

That is a sad state of affairs ! Introverts with bad social skills... teenagers.. acne.. sigh.. post removal. Thanks for the heads up ! I just wish they would be nice to each other ?

[truethat]

Never gonna happen. But one day some other newbie will come on board and start trying to trounce you and will gleefully sit back and watch one of us wipe the floor with them and it will all be worth it. I promise.

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by truethat

... just accepting that there are a bunch of introverts on here that may struggle with social skills...

Just because someone is an introvert does not mean they have problems with social skills.

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by BravesFan

I see it all the time on here where noobs <snip>

tl;dr version: GET OFFA MY DAMN LAWN!!

[truethat]

Originally Posted by SezMe

Just because someone is an introvert does not mean they have problems with social skills.

On this site?

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by truethat

On this site?

I do not understand the question nor do I understand the sarcasm smilie. Maybe you could be less cryptic.

[River]

Originally Posted by SezMe

I do not understand the question nor do I understand the sarcasm smilie. Maybe you could be less cryptic.

[truethat]

It means I think a lot of people on this site have problems with social skills.

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by AttorneyTom

Hey dont know anything.. and I surely am not on this site to prove that I know things or to impress anyone with my knowledge.

Good for you, but there are quite a few posters who arrive here certain of some woo for which they have not a shred of evidence, and wanting to teach us how wrong we all are not to believe it too. Not only have they never bothered to learn how to evaluate claims critically they have no intention of learning, and want instead to teach us how to think (if you can even call it that) like them. Those are the ones that get the kind of treatment you're complaining about.

I prefer to at least try to reason with them at first and if they prove unreceptive eventually stop responding to them, but I can understand why some of the long time posters lose patience with them so quickly. Being talked down to and lectured about subjects which you usually know at least ten times as much about as the lecturer is annoying the first time it happens, let alone the twentieth.

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by River

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/...5641sfgsfg.gif

Speaking of cryptic .....

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by truethat

It means I think a lot of people on this site have problems with social skills.

We disagree but that's not new. The question is not about people on this site having problems with social skills, the question is what does being an introvert have to do with the matter?

[Careyp74]

Originally Posted by truethat

Never gonna happen. But one day some other newbie will come on board and start trying to trounce you and will gleefully sit back and watch one of us wipe the floor with them and it will all be worth it. I promise.

You can't have your cake and eat it too!

The problem here is identifying the newbies and their intentions. sometimes their intentions are misunderstood, and once the trouncing happens, it is too late.

As far as the LMGTFY, I have seen some pretty dumb questions being asked, and the LMGTFY response is pretty tame compared to the responses it would get on other boards.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by AttorneyTom

It is not a "very friendly site" that is for sure ! I was hoping when I joined it would be a bit different. What I have seen and experienced is a bit of arrogance and certainly not a welcoming group of older (Forum Member date of joining )folks. That is okay... but it could be so different so easily.

Hey dont know anything.. and I surely am not on this site to prove that I know things or to impress anyone with my knowledge. I have been here since Feb. of this year and I think that only one person actually said hello to me. That was ABF, I think. Thank You for that.

This thing is fun.. but man.. no manners !

Edit: If anything those that have been here longer should be ambassadeurs to the site.

It's great fun to decide how others should act.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by truethat

It means I think a lot of people on this site have problems with social skills.

Projection.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by truethat

What drives me nuts about this is that half the time someone JUST googled it, so they have no frame of reference and can't actually vouch for the credibility. I mean when some smartass comes on and posts a LMGTFY post about a question I've asked I know right there they are a moron because that is the most BS way to try to back up a statement.

*shrug* We wouldn't need it, if people just used Google on their own before coming up with some silliness.

Originally Posted by truethat

I'd much rather just read what a person's ideas are all about and then take the time to look into it later. As well, some ideas are new and unfounded and so could benefit from the direction of other more well versed posters as to what to study or examine.

The problem is that not all opinions or ideas are created equal. If I asked a factual question, I'd actually be more interested in answers that can be backed up by facts or peer-reviewed study, than on someone's uninformed navel gazing. If they can google such a well supported answer better than me, why would I prefer the ignorant speculation instead?

In fact, I can't even imagine why someone would be annoyed by getting the facts instead of provoking some ignorant speculation, unless their actual goal is to troll or play what Cracked called "Secret Socrates." You know, actually peddling some hare-brained CT under the guise of just asking questions about it.

Originally Posted by truethat

I see that it has already been done to you in this thread. This site seems to have a whole lot of skeptics and page citers but few actual critical thinkers and I do think that's a downfall. When a new person comes on they are often treated with derision and scorn as if they are pretending to be critical of an idea when, as you say, they have just come to a conclusion. They are new to the idea.

I'd say it depends on how they go about it.

[quarky]

Not all woo is created equally. Some is speculative, however unlikely. R&P is a good place to speculate. Stuff like perpetual motion machines being defended in the Science forum isn't going to end well.
Yet even those embarrassing 'debates' can be quite educational.

[truethat]

The Secret Socrates is my pet peeve on all websites. Because I guess I'm the kind of person that will ask tons of questions and put up the alternate view that makes sense to me even if I don't agree with it personally.

IOW I can understand how some creationists get annoyed with the way ID is dismissed but it's mainly because they don't understand science and the way it works. After having it explained to me many times I was finally able to wrap my mind around it.

Although I know that ID is total BS I could understand the confusion and I wanted to have it explained to me in a way that made it easy to discuss with Creationists in order to explain it to them.

I of course was treated like a Closet Christian. There are still morons on this site that think it's all a ruse after all the years I've been on here. Very annoying.

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by BravesFan

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not....... lol I think I need to go to bed

No sarcasm* intended - at worst, noting that some here (and no, not referring to you) do have a "defend your opinion" posture. I do not defend opinions, I have them. I happily defend facts and interpretation of facts if asked nicely or reasonably challenged on them (where, by reasonably, I mean the other person may have newer facts or new data about things that were "facts" but that turned out to be errors and I missed the update.





*I tend to use when I am being sarcastic!!

[AttorneyTom]

Yes.. not a fan of the " Defend Your Opinion" mindset.

I have learned some things since I have been here and certainly there are some very clever and intelligent folks that regularly post on the Boards.. which is fun !

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by fuelair

No sarcasm* intended - at worst, noting that some here (and no, not referring to you) do have a "defend your opinion" posture. I do not defend opinions, I have them. I happily defend facts and interpretation of facts if asked nicely or reasonably challenged on them (where, by reasonably, I mean the other person may have newer facts or new data about things that were "facts" but that turned out to be errors and I missed the update.

You do have the right to your own opinion, as long as it's, basically a red herring for the thread, and nothing depends on it being true or correct. If its truth is fully irrelevant to anything whatsoever, then, yes, you don't have to defend it.

But that's not how it's usually used. Almost invariably when you hear something defended as "well, X is just my opinion", there was or is some "X, therefore Y" involved.

The only sane construct where that can fly, logically speaking, is something of the form of "I believe X, and for that reason _I_ think/believe/do Y". Then that self-knowledge explains one's own decisions. But even then it can express only causality, not state or imply that therefore believing or doing Y is correct or right or anything. At which point, again, unless the topic is specifically "why do you do Y?" or "why does Fuelair believe Y?", it's a red herring.

But at any rate, there is this difference between just stating a personal opinion or personal knowing the cause for one's doing something, and actually justifying the conclusion. The former is silly to try to refute, but the latter can't be supported just on personal opinions.

E.g., imagine I said, for example:

Well, I don't beat my kid, because I believe the Bible is inerrant truth. And Proverbs 13:24 says, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." while in Luke 14:26, Jesus says "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple." So basically I have to hate the little squirt to go to Heavens, and if I hate him, I can't beat him.

(Hey, it's no more stupid than other arguments based on the bible, and at least it's original)

What is silly to debunk is whether I hold that belief, or whether that's really the cause. But if the implication is that that logic is valid, or maybe even sound, or the conclusion actually justified by it, then you'd be right to ask me to support my premises. Like, ok, how do I know that the Bible is inerrant?

And the latter really what happens usually. What is usually implied isn't just "and here's why, without any semblance of logic or normality, I do Y", but that there is some "X => Y" that can be handwaved by just asserting a personal belief or opinion about X.

And I can't talk for everyone on this board, but that's when _I_ will ask someone to support the claim.

And sometimes it gets even stupider. Like you see people do actually roll everything into a "well, Y is just a personal opinion too. I don't have to base it on sound logic." But then

A) I'm not interested in it. If the thread is about whether proposition Y can be justified, if there is some good premise X that can be used in an "X => Y", that is NOT the same thing as "let's see why poster John Doe personally believes Y". The question is whether it can be objectively supported, not what unsupported superstitions one particular poster has about it. Anyone who backs into "no, no, no, that's just why _I_ believe it, and I don't have to justify my opinions" in such a context, just told me they've just wasted my time with something fully irrelevant.

B) they better not continue unfazed with an "and then Y => Z".

[Barber Shop]

One of the most frustrating things I see is when someone pops in and accuses everyone of being pseudo-skeptics for dismissing their cherished theory.

Often times, the rely on the (mis)use of 'open-mindedness'. These folks confuse being 'open-minded' with 'blindly accepting whatever I propose'.

These folks never seem to realize that they should also be 'open-minded' to the fact that their theory could be WRONG.

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by Barber Shop

One of the most frustrating things I see is when someone pops in and accuses everyone of being pseudo-skeptics for dismissing their cherished theory.

Meh, that's just "instant fail" stuff. Not even worth challenging most of the time. They should practice some more at ATS before they come over here.

[Cayvmann]

Originally Posted by BravesFan

i get that to an extent, but sometimes, I would like to have a discussion on here that is just about ideas and opinions rather than a bloody peer reviewed paper. In real life we don't run around asking our friends for evidence everytime they bring up an opinion or POV. (or our friends would kick us in the balls or wouldn't be our friends for very long). But one here, some people seem to be able to have normal conversations.

I almost always ask my friends "Why?" when they give me opinion. If they don't offer supporting evidence or some logical thought, I feel free to dismiss their opinion, and I usually do. If someone is going to offer their opinion to me, they are usually trying to change my mind. Without a compelling reason to do so, it's just empty blather.

I don't have many friends. True story.

[Baloney]

I think it's silly when a question is asked, and some people assume that the sole reason you are asking the question is to posit a belief (or justification) opposite to the beliefs or opinions they hold. It couldn't possibly be just asking a question or looking for other's opinions!


Of course, sometimes, it is just that!

[AttorneyTom]

In my humble opinion this topic is worthy of discussion and apparently long over due ! Accolades to its author.

[BravesFan]

Shucks........

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by Baloney

I think it's silly when a question is asked, and some people assume that the sole reason you are asking the question is to posit a belief (or justification) opposite to the beliefs or opinions they hold. It couldn't possibly be just asking a question or looking for other's opinions!


Of course, sometimes, it is just that!

As I was saying, it depends on how one goes about it. Sometimes it does become obvious that something doesn't add up. Like after they asked the twentieth time some version of "but how can you be sure that the Zyklon B wasn't bought for de-lousing clothes?" and "but how can you be so sure there were any Jews killed, when historians don't agree on the exact number?" and "but why would someone make a whole photo album of their wiping out the Warsaw ghetto?", or for that matter started the same thread asking the same questions all over again, that one can at least start suspecting that if they were actually asking, they'd at least listen to the answers

But really, Cracked explains it the best: http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-7-mo...ndas-internet/

Now mind you, personally I do try to apply Hanlon's Razor first and not jump to accusations of hidden agendas -- especially since they're irrelevant to being right or wrong anyway -- but occasionally one does have to realize that yes there is a belief that is being defended, and it's not going to change no matter what you say.

[Johnny Brant]

Originally Posted by BravesFan

..What seems as a new and interesting subject to you (say demons ) to the board regulars may seem like so old hat as to not be really worthy of discussion...

If they want to stay locked in the past, that's their problem.
New ideas and theories and stuff on all sorts of subjects are coming out all the time and are worthy of open-minded discussion in the light of current thinking.
For example we could say they're afraid to entertain the notion that demons may exist which is why they don't want to talk about the subject..

[AttorneyTom]

Originally Posted by Johnny Brant

If they want to stay locked in the past, that's their problem.
New ideas and theories and stuff on all sorts of subjects are coming out all the time and are worthy of open-minded discussion in the light of current thinking.
For example we could say they're afraid to entertain the notion that demons may exist which is why they don't want to talk about the subject..

Good point ! On the other hand there sure alot of dead horses being beaten to death.. well you know what I mean ?


Edit: Disclaimer.. I am not endorsing the existence of " Demons" or their relatives .. bleevers.. or any evidence thereof.

[Yuri Nalyssus]

Originally Posted by Barber Shop

One of the most frustrating things I see is when someone pops in and accuses everyone of being pseudo-skeptics for dismissing their cherished theory.

Often times, the rely on the (mis)use of 'open-mindedness'. These folks confuse being 'open-minded' with 'blindly accepting whatever I propose'.

These folks never seem to realize that they should also be 'open-minded' to the fact that their theory could be WRONG.

and...

Originally Posted by Baloney

I think it's silly when a question is asked, and some people assume that the sole reason you are asking the question is to posit a belief (or justification) opposite to the beliefs or opinions they hold. It couldn't possibly be just asking a question or looking for other's opinions!

There's the rub - it's telling the difference between these two opening positions. Usually it's impossible to distinguish them from the first post so the best stance is neutral, helpful - cautiously give the benefit of the doubt.

I've seen genuine posters taken apart as 'anti-vaxx' when they have plainly said, and it was obvious from their posts, that they were not - the momentum of the thread carries on regardless and before you know it we're in a JREF feeding frenzy.

I've also felt stupid trying to help what appears at first sight to be someone posting genuine questions but it turns out to be just a front for their own crack-pot theories and they're not interested in my or anyone else's input if it contradicts their preconceptions.

Difficult to tell the difference sometimes but no excuse to assume that everyone who askes a question in their first ever post is a disingenuous woo-monger causing trouble. Then again we're all human and have the occasional off day!

I certainly agree that this is an interesting subject, there are a couple of similar threads around at the moment which have got me thinking - so my thanks also to the OP'er.

Also, welcome to the forum AttorneyTom - and hello

Yuri

[truethat]

I am often sucked down in the anti vaxx feeding frenzy. I think if you've been a poster for a long time or have many posts that should be an indication of something.

Yes newer posters tend to be all glossy and innocentlike but they will soon reveal themselves, there's no need to attack just yet.