Tsr2

Dcdrac · 4th May 2012, 06:12 AM

Still looks amazing even now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXdJxjvQZW4

The Don · 4th May 2012, 07:06 AM

The cancellation of the TSR2 project in order to (fail to) buy the F111 is IMO a failure of British aeronautical policy on a par with the Miles M.52 and the UK giving away research on the all-moving tailplane.

Huttosaurus · 5th May 2012, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

The cancellation of the TSR2 project in order to (fail to) buy the F111 is IMO a failure of British aeronautical policy on a par with the Miles M.52 and the UK giving away research on the all-moving tailplane.

Right up there with giving the Soviets the Nene Turbojet and the 1957 Sandys Defence White Paper. The post-war history of political meddling in the British aircraft industry is not happy reading. So much potential wasted for expediency.

SpitfireIX · 5th May 2012, 03:22 PM

Wow, I'd never even heard of this plane. Watched a great documentary about it on Youtube (part 1 here). What a sad state of affairs, not only that it wasn't built, but that the prototypes weren't preserved as museum pieces.

Huttosaurus · 5th May 2012, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

Wow, I'd never even heard of this plane. Watched a great documentary about it on Youtube (part 1 here). What a sad state of affairs, not only that it wasn't built, but that the prototypes weren't preserved as museum pieces.

The second and fourth protoypes are preserved at museums in the UK. The only one that ever flew wound up on a gunnery test range.

SpitfireIX · 5th May 2012, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Huttosaurus

The second and fourth protoypes are preserved at museums in the UK. The only one that ever flew wound up on a gunnery test range.

Okay, that makes me feel a little better.

Dcdrac · 8th May 2012, 07:11 AM

And most of the technology ended up in concord and the same engines were used.

|TSR2 was years ahead of its time, it went supersonic on one engine and left its Lightening chase plane behind on one engine once.

Aber · 8th May 2012, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Huttosaurus

the 1957 Sandys Defence White Paper

IIRC the first use of 'the era of the manned combat aircraft is over'

Dcdrac · 8th May 2012, 11:23 AM

One of the prototype airframes is at Duxford

Dcdrac · 8th May 2012, 11:29 AM

Britain even ahd a rocket programme once

http://www.britain-in-space.co.uk/1950/blackprince.html

Captain_Swoop · 8th May 2012, 12:08 PM

Even if they hadn't cancelled it I can bet it woul dhave been way over budget, years late and plagued by problems until it was withdrawn from service. That's usualy the fate of anything described as 'years ahead of it's time'

Huttosaurus · 9th May 2012, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Even if they hadn't cancelled it I can bet it woul dhave been way over budget, years late and plagued by problems until it was withdrawn from service. That's usualy the fate of anything described as 'years ahead of it's time'

Actually most of the technical hurdles had been sorted by the time it was cancelled, and it was getting great praise from it's test pilots and showing enormous potential. It was cancelled purely for political reasons after a change of government, not because of development problems (although such problems as there were had been magnified as an excuse). It was unfairly demonised by an uninformed press as well.

After it was cancelled the new government opted to spend more money on developing, then cancelling the F-111K to do the job of the TSR.2, before finally opting for the Blackburn Buccaneer for the role, an aircraft they could have had in service nearly a decade earlier but the RAF didn't like because it was a naval aircraft. Naturally they grew to love the thing.

Dcdrac · 9th May 2012, 06:47 AM

The Bucaneer was a fine plane for sure and alos a lot of TSR2s tech ended up in the Tornado another fine plane

GlennB · 9th May 2012, 07:15 AM

I recall getting up close to one at RAF Henlow in 1967(?) while on a gliding course there. Beautiful thing. I wasn't aware of the details of its history until reading this.

catsmate1 · 10th May 2012, 07:25 AM

The TSR2 appears quite a lot over in alternatehistory.com and whatifmodellers.com.

richardm · 14th May 2012, 08:07 AM

There's a tremendous writeup on the TSR-2 at Thunder and Lightnings for anyone interested.

In fact all the articles there are well worth a read; he covers quite a lot of types and is an engaging writer with an interesting subject.

Ove · 16th May 2012, 06:19 AM

Well Duncan Sandys was a first class J*** if there ever was one, no doubt about it but it's the story of British Aircraftproduction in a nutshell. De Havilland was allmost ordered to stop production of the Mosquito so that they could do the more usefull thing: Convert Tiger Moths to take bombs to repell an upcoming invasion. Avro was ordered to stop Lancaster development from the not so fine Manchester so that they could make Halifaxes. Whittle was stopped several times during the development of the Jet engine. The americans were given all details of the Miles M52 and then Miles was ordered to stop the production because Sandys believed that a straight wing plane couldn't exeed Mach 1. etc etc.
The Harrier was also hindered because it was a sub-sonic plane which "thoose who knew" thought would be obsolete (USMC think different

).

It seems that most progress in British aviation has been made DESPITE the goverment and it's civil service "Sir Humphrey's".

But actually it is a long and not-so-proud tradition. During WW1 Bristol made a monoplane *(MC1) that by all accounts flew well and would have made a good job. It was never used in larger numbers because the "powers to be" simply refused to accept a monoplane.

catsmate1 · 17th May 2012, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ove

Well Duncan Sandys was a first class J*** if there ever was one, no doubt about it but it's the story of British Aircraftproduction in a nutshell. De Havilland was allmost ordered to stop production of the Mosquito so that they could do the more usefull thing: Convert Tiger Moths to take bombs to repell an upcoming invasion. Avro was ordered to stop Lancaster development from the not so fine Manchester so that they could make Halifaxes. Whittle was stopped several times during the development of the Jet engine. The americans were given all details of the Miles M52 and then Miles was ordered to stop the production because Sandys believed that a straight wing plane couldn't exeed Mach 1. etc etc.
The Harrier was also hindered because it was a sub-sonic plane which "thoose who knew" thought would be obsolete (USMC think different

).

It seems that most progress in British aviation has been made DESPITE the goverment and it's civil service "Sir Humphrey's".

But actually it is a long and not-so-proud tradition. During WW1 Bristol made a monoplane *(MC1) that by all accounts flew well and would have made a good job. It was never used in larger numbers because the "powers to be" simply refused to accept a monoplane.

There is a school of thought that Britain would have performed far better in the early part of WW2 without Nuffield and the Air Ministry.

Dcdrac · 20th May 2012, 09:22 AM

http://www.bisbos.com/rocketscience/...ges/tsr2a4.pdf

Cut out of TSR2

4th May 2012, 06:12 AM	#1
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,667	Tsr2 Still looks amazing even now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXdJxjvQZW4
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,667

5th May 2012, 01:44 AM	#3
Huttosaurus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 67	Originally Posted by The Don The cancellation of the TSR2 project in order to (fail to) buy the F111 is IMO a failure of British aeronautical policy on a par with the Miles M.52 and the UK giving away research on the all-moving tailplane. Right up there with giving the Soviets the Nene Turbojet and the 1957 Sandys Defence White Paper. The post-war history of political meddling in the British aircraft industry is not happy reading. So much potential wasted for expediency.
Huttosaurus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 67

5th May 2012, 03:22 PM	#4
SpitfireIX Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA Posts: 2,830	Wow, I'd never even heard of this plane. Watched a great documentary about it on Youtube (part 1 here). What a sad state of affairs, not only that it wasn't built, but that the prototypes weren't preserved as museum pieces.
	__________________ Handy responses to conspiracy theorists' claims: 1) "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage 2) "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --Wolfgang Pauli 3) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya

5th May 2012, 06:37 PM	#5
Huttosaurus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 67	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX Wow, I'd never even heard of this plane. Watched a great documentary about it on Youtube (part 1 here). What a sad state of affairs, not only that it wasn't built, but that the prototypes weren't preserved as museum pieces. The second and fourth protoypes are preserved at museums in the UK. The only one that ever flew wound up on a gunnery test range.
Huttosaurus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 67

5th May 2012, 08:38 PM	#6
SpitfireIX Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA Posts: 2,830	Originally Posted by Huttosaurus The second and fourth protoypes are preserved at museums in the UK. The only one that ever flew wound up on a gunnery test range. Okay, that makes me feel a little better.
	__________________ Handy responses to conspiracy theorists' claims: 1) "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage 2) "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --Wolfgang Pauli 3) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya

4th May 2012, 07:06 AM	#2
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,233	The cancellation of the TSR2 project in order to (fail to) buy the F111 is IMO a failure of British aeronautical policy on a par with the Miles M.52 and the UK giving away research on the all-moving tailplane.

8th May 2012, 07:11 AM	#7
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,667	And most of the technology ended up in concord and the same engines were used. \|TSR2 was years ahead of its time, it went supersonic on one engine and left its Lightening chase plane behind on one engine once.
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,667

8th May 2012, 11:10 AM	#8
Aber Thinker Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 148	Originally Posted by Huttosaurus the 1957 Sandys Defence White Paper IIRC the first use of 'the era of the manned combat aircraft is over'
Aber Thinker Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 148

8th May 2012, 11:23 AM	#9
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,667	One of the prototype airframes is at Duxford
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,667

8th May 2012, 11:29 AM	#10
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,667	Britain even ahd a rocket programme once http://www.britain-in-space.co.uk/1950/blackprince.html
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,667

8th May 2012, 12:08 PM	#11
Captain_Swoop Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 3,915	Even if they hadn't cancelled it I can bet it woul dhave been way over budget, years late and plagued by problems until it was withdrawn from service. That's usualy the fate of anything described as 'years ahead of it's time'

9th May 2012, 03:51 AM	#12
Huttosaurus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 67	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Even if they hadn't cancelled it I can bet it woul dhave been way over budget, years late and plagued by problems until it was withdrawn from service. That's usualy the fate of anything described as 'years ahead of it's time' Actually most of the technical hurdles had been sorted by the time it was cancelled, and it was getting great praise from it's test pilots and showing enormous potential. It was cancelled purely for political reasons after a change of government, not because of development problems (although such problems as there were had been magnified as an excuse). It was unfairly demonised by an uninformed press as well. After it was cancelled the new government opted to spend more money on developing, then cancelling the F-111K to do the job of the TSR.2, before finally opting for the Blackburn Buccaneer for the role, an aircraft they could have had in service nearly a decade earlier but the RAF didn't like because it was a naval aircraft. Naturally they grew to love the thing.
Huttosaurus Scholar Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 67

9th May 2012, 06:47 AM	#13
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,667	The Bucaneer was a fine plane for sure and alos a lot of TSR2s tech ended up in the Tornado another fine plane
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,667

9th May 2012, 07:15 AM	#14
GlennB Jellied eel and offal fancier Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 8,932	I recall getting up close to one at RAF Henlow in 1967(?) while on a gliding course there. Beautiful thing. I wasn't aware of the details of its history until reading this.

10th May 2012, 07:25 AM	#15
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,109	The TSR2 appears quite a lot over in alternatehistory.com and whatifmodellers.com.

14th May 2012, 08:07 AM	#16
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	There's a tremendous writeup on the TSR-2 at Thunder and Lightnings for anyone interested. In fact all the articles there are well worth a read; he covers quite a lot of types and is an engaging writer with an interesting subject.
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

16th May 2012, 06:19 AM	#17
Ove Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,884	Well Duncan Sandys was a first class J*** if there ever was one, no doubt about it but it's the story of British Aircraftproduction in a nutshell. De Havilland was allmost ordered to stop production of the Mosquito so that they could do the more usefull thing: Convert Tiger Moths to take bombs to repell an upcoming invasion. Avro was ordered to stop Lancaster development from the not so fine Manchester so that they could make Halifaxes. Whittle was stopped several times during the development of the Jet engine. The americans were given all details of the Miles M52 and then Miles was ordered to stop the production because Sandys believed that a straight wing plane couldn't exeed Mach 1. etc etc. The Harrier was also hindered because it was a sub-sonic plane which "thoose who knew" thought would be obsolete (USMC think different ). It seems that most progress in British aviation has been made DESPITE the goverment and it's civil service "Sir Humphrey's". But actually it is a long and not-so-proud tradition. During WW1 Bristol made a monoplane *(MC1) that by all accounts flew well and would have made a good job. It was never used in larger numbers because the "powers to be" simply refused to accept a monoplane.
	__________________ I am sitting here, completely surrounded by NO BEER..... (Onslow) Last edited by Ove; 16th May 2012 at 06:21 AM.

17th May 2012, 03:31 PM	#18
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,109	Originally Posted by Ove Well Duncan Sandys was a first class J*** if there ever was one, no doubt about it but it's the story of British Aircraftproduction in a nutshell. De Havilland was allmost ordered to stop production of the Mosquito so that they could do the more usefull thing: Convert Tiger Moths to take bombs to repell an upcoming invasion. Avro was ordered to stop Lancaster development from the not so fine Manchester so that they could make Halifaxes. Whittle was stopped several times during the development of the Jet engine. The americans were given all details of the Miles M52 and then Miles was ordered to stop the production because Sandys believed that a straight wing plane couldn't exeed Mach 1. etc etc. The Harrier was also hindered because it was a sub-sonic plane which "thoose who knew" thought would be obsolete (USMC think different ). It seems that most progress in British aviation has been made DESPITE the goverment and it's civil service "Sir Humphrey's". But actually it is a long and not-so-proud tradition. During WW1 Bristol made a monoplane *(MC1) that by all accounts flew well and would have made a good job. It was never used in larger numbers because the "powers to be" simply refused to accept a monoplane. There is a school of thought that Britain would have performed far better in the early part of WW2 without Nuffield and the Air Ministry.

20th May 2012, 09:22 AM	#19
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,667	http://www.bisbos.com/rocketscience/...ges/tsr2a4.pdf Cut out of TSR2
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,667