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Old 8th May 2012, 06:06 PM   #281
JoeBentley
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
I did not say DNA IS a code. I said it CONTAINS codified information, similar to a computer code, or a book. How could it have a " natural " aka non intelligent origin ?
Argument from in-credulousness. You don't understand how DNA could have developed, ergo Woo.

And you still are refusing to address issues people have brought up with your base.

So the mythical "DNA Creating Intelligence" doesn't require a more complicated cause then the cause it's supposed to be the solution too? DNA is too complicated to have arisen on it's on, but the magical super power the created it could have. That... makes... no... sense.

Your entire argument hits the death spiral of infinite regression. It is self defeating. It is flawed on a base level.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:07 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
Where do you get the idea that we have 'knowledge of morals' ?
There is a common knowledge to all humans, which do not have to learn, that kill, steal, cheat, betray, torture etc. of others is a bad thing to do. Where does this knowledge come from ?
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:10 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Argument from in-credulousness. You don't understand how DNA could have developed, ergo Woo.
exacatly. In the same way, i do not believe, a computer code , or a book, could have as origin chance or physical necessity, so i don't believe, the codified information in DNA and RNA has chance or physical necessity as origin. Why do you believe, chance or physical necessity is a better explanation ?


Quote:
Your entire argument his the death spiral of infinite regression. It is self defeating. It is flawed on a base level.
I believe in a uncaused God. No infinite regression applies here.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:12 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
That "fine-tuning" doesn't exist.
tell it these guys.....

George Ellis
(British astrophysicist)
“Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word ‘miraculous’ without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word.”


Paul Davies
(British astrophysicist)
“There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all. It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe. The impression of design is overwhelming.”


Alan Sandage
(winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy)
“I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”

John O'Keefe
(NASA astronomer)
“We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures. If the universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in.”


George Greenstein
(astronomer)
“As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency—or, rather, Agency—must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”


Arthur Eddington
(astrophysicist)
“The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory.”


Arno Penzias
(Nobel prize in physics)
“Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say ‘supernatural’) plan.”


Roger Penrose
(mathematician and author)
“I would say the universe has a purpose. It’s not there just somehow by chance.”


Tony Rothman
(physicist)
“When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it’s very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it.”


Vera Kistiakowsky
(MIT physicist)
“The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine.”


Stephen Hawking
(British astrophysicist)
“What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? …

Up to now, most scientists have been too occupied with the development of new theories that describe what the universe is to ask the question why?”


Alexander Polyakov
(Soviet mathematician)
“We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it.”


Ed Harrison
(cosmologist)
“Here is the cosmological proof of the existence of God—the design argument of Paley—updated and refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one. Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the teleological or design argument.”


Edward Milne
(British cosmologist)
“As to the cause of the Universe, in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but our picture is incomplete without Him [God].”


Barry Parker
(cosmologist)
“Who created these laws? There is no question but that a God will always be needed.”


Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel
(cosmologists)
“This type of universe, however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial conditions that is in apparent conflict with ‘common wisdom’.”


Arthur L. Schawlow
(Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics)
“It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life.”


Henry "Fritz" Schaefer
(computational quantum chemist)
“The significance and joy in my science comes in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, ‘So that’s how God did it.’ My goal is to understand a little corner of God’s plan.”


Wernher von Braun
(Pioneer rocket engineer)
“I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science.”
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:14 PM   #285
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<<<<<

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
<<<<<

The world was made just for me!!! Whee!!!

I always knew I was special because my mom told me that and mom never lies so to have a random poster on the internet agree just proves it for me.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:15 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I'm an atheist, and I am drinking a cup of coffee. I made the coffee in a machine that runs hot water through ground coffee beans. I pour it into a cup and add a bit of milk and sugar. Then I stir it.

At no point in this process do I pray, or ask for God's intervention, or worry about whether God will continue to allow gravity to keep my coffee in the cup.

Tell me how this isn't naturalism of the sort even believers rely on every day? And if they are atheists at least to that extent, they might understand why I am even more atheist.

So I wonder... How does a believer get through their day while simultaneously denying naturalism? Do they hate coffee?
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/naturalism/


Quote:
The term ‘naturalism’ has no very precise meaning in contemporary philosophy. Its current usage derives from debates in America in the first half of the last century. The self-proclaimed ‘naturalists’ from that period included John Dewey, Ernest Nagel, Sidney Hook and Roy Wood Sellars. These philosophers aimed to ally philosophy more closely with science. They urged that reality is exhausted by nature, containing nothing ‘supernatural’,
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:15 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The God i believe in is uncaused, has no beginning , and no end. He just is.
Ah, just special pleading and bare assertion then.

Why don't you believe that The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe and was destroyed in making it?
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:16 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Lee Smolin (a world-class physicist and a leader in quantum gravity) estimates that if the physical constants of the universe were chosen randomly
Can you provide any kind of evidence that the physical constants could possibly have been any different than they are? Or that they were random? Or that if they were different, it would not have forbidden carbon chemistry but allowed some other, even better process?

Quote:
There is a common knowledge to all humans, which do not have to learn, that kill, steal, cheat, betray, torture etc. of others is a bad thing to do. Where does this knowledge come from ?
It is a common belief among most humans that those things are bad - and even then, most people will happily make all kinds of exceptions to those rules.

But in any case, these are rules we have created based on instincts that have evolved, to allow us to live in social groups. It is no different from the way insects will behave in a certain way within an insect colony, or wolves will behave a certain way within a wolf pack. Nothing about them indicates the presence of some knowledge implanted into us by a god.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:16 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Did it ever occur to any of you that perhaps GIBHOR, and others who make his sort of arguments just don't care about productivity in science?!

There are countless folks who can successfully go about their daily lives without worrying about which frameworks of thinking lead to the most effective and innovative ideas to fight disease, or predict asteroid collisions, or any of the assorted things science and engineering are good at doing.

Or, maybe they do care, but they are lucky enough to not be in a position of responsability to do anything about it. (Which means they, effectively, don't care that much.)

So, those sorts of folks can afford not to think in naturalistic terms.

Meanwhile, those of us who would rather not leave everything up to a supernatural power ARE going to use our sciences: "Big-Bang" Cosmology, "Old Earth" geology, and Evolutionary Biology, etc; to develop the solutions we need to solve any problems we might choose to confront. (Or, at the very least, cheer those who are doing so, by embracing the naturalistic understanding they require.)

Much of this bickering is pointless, once productivity becomes the focus.
if you would study where the scientific method comes from, you would not post what you did.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:18 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Twiler View Post
Why?

Why?

Why?
because from absolutely nothing, nothing arises. please prove me wrong.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:21 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by rocketdodger View Post
For me, the issue is that once the notion of "God" most people think of is evaluated critically, parts start to fall away, and what you have left isn't anything at all.

If there is a God, it is some unknowable unimaginable entity that is so far removed from any of the religious notions people hold that it might as well be some naturalistic phenomena anyway.

Here is a question to you, GIBHOR: If God isn't like anything you can imagine it is like, meaning if it is intelligent it is intelligent in a way you cannot understand, if it has form it is a form you cannot understand, etc., then what is the utility in ascribing the term "God" to it rather than any other term we use for stuff we don't really know anything about?

I think the notion of "atheism" is a bit skewed these days. In reality, an atheist has specific points that they hold a view on. It isn't like you can say "an atheist doesn't believe in God" because the term "God" isn't well defined anymore. For example, as an atheist I don't believe in:

1) A supreme being, because the notions of "supreme" and "being" are not consistent.
2) A being that is omniscient with regards to its own existence, because that is inconsistent.
3) A being that is not constrained to the rules of our universe, in particular what we observe as cause and effect.
4) A non-animal being that has a gender, because gender only applies to animals that reproduce via sexual reproduction.
5) A being that is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, because that is inconsistent.

... and there are more. The point is that what one considers "God" may be only a subset of these points, or all of them, or none of them. It is more accurate to address each point specifically rather than use a generalization.
well, i have a very defined way to understand who God is:

God is the supreme being of the universe. God is a unbodied mind, He is righteous and just, love, good, free from sin, he is perfect in his character and person, he is righteous in all His attitudes and actions, he is eternal, without a beginning, and without a end, he is omniscient, omnipresent, limitless in authority, immutable, he is the truth. Moreover, God is self-existent, nonspatial, nonmaterial, unimaginably powerful, and personal.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:21 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
because from absolutely nothing, nothing arises. please prove me wrong.
After you tell us where god came from.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:23 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
well, i have a very defined way to understand who God is:

God is the supreme being of the universe. God is a unbodied mind, He is righteous and just, love, good, free from sin, he is perfect in his character and person, he is righteous in all His attitudes and actions, he is eternal, without a beginning, and without a end, he is omniscient, omnipresent, limitless in authority, immutable, he is the truth. Moreover, God is self-existent, nonspatial, nonmaterial, unimaginably powerful, and personal.
It's fun and satisfying to some people to make up imaginary friends.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:26 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
I did not say DNA IS a code. I said it CONTAINS codified information, similar to a computer code, or a book. How could it have a " natural " aka non intelligent origin ?
Entropy... no really. No ID, no God, no engineer. Entropy. You're making this brutally easy, just read this:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:31 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The God i believe in is uncaused, has no beginning , and no end. He just is.
Ah then your God isn't the Christian God. All this you've said about God, about being an unimbodied mind and all such other nonsense...that's not the God of the Bible nor is it from Bronze Age scripture. That's a new God, one you made up. You better hope YWHW really doesn't exist, for his name is Jealous...
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:33 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
please explain to me how so-called 'scientific creationism' or 'intelligent design' can be used to create a modern vaccine and/or antibiotic. Evolutionary science does this all the time, so when is creationism going to get into the act?"
Who told you that is the goal of intelligent design arguments ?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...lligent-design

Quote:
Intelligent design arguments are those that confirm the existence of the Creator God (or at least a creator—not necessarily the biblical God). These arguments are based on the teleological argument for the existence of God. That is, living things appear to be designed for a function and with purpose and thus require a designer.
thats all.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:34 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Why do you believe the alternatives, like chance, or physical necessity, are compelling answers to explain these phenomenas?
As you said
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The God i believe in is uncaused, has no beginning , and no end. He just is.
If you can randomly decide to believe in an uncaused god, I can believe in an uncaused universe.
My belief has the added advantage of being simpler and still fitting with all observations.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:36 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
because from absolutely nothing, nothing arises. please prove me wrong.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
After you tell us where god came from.
But you don't understand God is special, because he says so.

You see because he doesn't understand where reality came from, he makes up a magical super being that somehow comes from nowhere to create the thing he doesn't understood how it came to be.

And this makes perfect sense.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:43 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Who told you that is the goal of intelligent design arguments ?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...lligent-design

Quote:
Intelligent design arguments are those that confirm the existence of the Creator God (or at least a creator—not necessarily the biblical God). These arguments are based on the teleological argument for the existence of God. That is, living things appear to be designed for a function and with purpose and thus require a designer.
thats all.
Oh, then you don't believe your god is the creator of the universe?
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:44 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Carbon chemistry

Wait wait wait....that's the same guy who said this?!:

Originally Posted by Lee Smolin
"there never was a God, no pilot who made the world by imposing order on chaos and who remains outside, watching and proscribing."
-.- your lack of standards are envious GIBHOR

Anyways, the odds are irrelevant as they do not prove impossibility. We have entropy to explain it, it's observed. God is not. God is a useless hypothesis and that's why naturalism is a better explanation. Your questions are answered, though I'm sure your doubts are not. Don't worry, oblivion isn't as bad as it seems.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:49 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
because from absolutely nothing, nothing arises. please prove me wrong.
You have a couple of problems with this argument:
1.) if we take your premise at face value, than regardless of mechanism, god can't explain the origin of the universe. Afterall, you state that from nothing nothing arises. Well, the universe came from nothing. So saying god made it happen (through unknown processes) still violates your premise. It violates the premise as much as saying the universe just happens spontaneously.

2.) we have evidence of things coming from nothing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

3.) As time started WITH the universe at the big bang, saying it "came" from nothing is a meaningless comment.
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Old 8th May 2012, 07:00 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
I hate it when I arrive to these threads late and all the good stuff is already said.
Just wait these GIBHOR threads have cycles, they will arrive and give you an opportunity.
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Old 8th May 2012, 07:01 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The God i believe in is uncaused, has no beginning , and no end. He just is.
He?

How unimaginative, how many 'hes' are uncreated?
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Old 8th May 2012, 07:03 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
This is idiocyfor obvious reasons, if you wish to educate your self as to why :

_Explain why the constants in the universe would have the variation Smolin postulates.

Then read
http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/v...o/FineTune.pdf
IS THE UNIVERSE FINE-TUNED FOR US?
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Old 8th May 2012, 07:08 PM   #305
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Gibhor,

This is just ridiculous! You don't understand evolution, or physics, but are just quote mining, often from scientists who are professed atheists. You are rejecting scientific arguments with no facts or rationale to do so, but then simply state your beliefs as if that settles the argument.

You state your god has no beginning, so no infinite regression is necessary. Okay, my universe has no beginning and/or no cause, so no infinite regression is necessary. See- it's easy!

I can detect and measure my reality in a thousand different ways- all of which are reproducible and anyone else can verify my observations. You, instead, have an invisible, undetectable god, the nature of which no two theologians agree on, and whose properties you make up as you go along.

Your argument is that "believing" in what we can actually see, smell, hear, and understand through our scientific instruments, and that always repeats when we repeat the experiment, is not the best explanation of our universe, but that an invisible, intelligent entity that behaves indistinguishably from chance is. And you think that is a higher level of logic?? Doesn't that sometimes seem at least a little silly to you?

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Old 8th May 2012, 07:08 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
absolutely. Why do you believe the alternatives, like chance, or physical necessity, are compelling answers to explain these phenomenas?
Lets me get this,

-if a god created the universe: it behaves consistently, right?
-if a god did not create the universe it behaves consistently, right?
-if the universe is a science fair project it behaves consistently, right?
- if the universe if the result of a committee of gods it still behaves consistently, right?

So naturalism works.

Unless you have evidence of the inconsistency of the universe. And want to pretend to know things you can't know.
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Old 8th May 2012, 07:10 PM   #307
Dancing David
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
There is a common knowledge to all humans, which do not have to learn, that kill, steal, cheat, betray, torture etc. of others is a bad thing to do. Where does this knowledge come from ?
Social conditioning, certainly the bible says it is okay to rape and kill the enemy , enslave them, persecute them, destroy their cities and rape their daughters. So no morals there.

In fact the god of the old testament is rather a psychotic maniac with bloodlust.
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Old 8th May 2012, 07:12 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
tell it these guys.....

George Ellis
(British astrophysicist)
“Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word ‘miraculous’ without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word.”


Paul Davies
(British astrophysicist)
“There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all. It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe. The impression of design is overwhelming.”


Alan Sandage
(winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy)
“I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”

John O'Keefe
(NASA astronomer)
“We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures. If the universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in.”


George Greenstein
(astronomer)
“As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency—or, rather, Agency—must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?”


Arthur Eddington
(astrophysicist)
“The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory.”


Arno Penzias
(Nobel prize in physics)
“Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say ‘supernatural’) plan.”


Roger Penrose
(mathematician and author)
“I would say the universe has a purpose. It’s not there just somehow by chance.”


Tony Rothman
(physicist)
“When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it’s very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it.”


Vera Kistiakowsky
(MIT physicist)
“The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine.”


Stephen Hawking
(British astrophysicist)
“What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? …

Up to now, most scientists have been too occupied with the development of new theories that describe what the universe is to ask the question why?”


Alexander Polyakov
(Soviet mathematician)
“We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it.”


Ed Harrison
(cosmologist)
“Here is the cosmological proof of the existence of God—the design argument of Paley—updated and refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one. Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the teleological or design argument.”


Edward Milne
(British cosmologist)
“As to the cause of the Universe, in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but our picture is incomplete without Him [God].”


Barry Parker
(cosmologist)
“Who created these laws? There is no question but that a God will always be needed.”


Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel
(cosmologists)
“This type of universe, however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial conditions that is in apparent conflict with ‘common wisdom’.”


Arthur L. Schawlow
(Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics)
“It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life.”


Henry "Fritz" Schaefer
(computational quantum chemist)
“The significance and joy in my science comes in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, ‘So that’s how God did it.’ My goal is to understand a little corner of God’s plan.”


Wernher von Braun
(Pioneer rocket engineer)
“I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science.”
Funny how you did not present an argument, just a bunch of unsubstantiated opinions.

Try reading Stenger's paper.
http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/v...o/FineTune.pdf
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Old 8th May 2012, 07:14 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
because from absolutely nothing, nothing arises. please prove me wrong.
I don't know, is not nothing.

You lack moral courage to face ignorance of events and instead insert some imaginary creature with imaginary attributes.
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Old 8th May 2012, 07:15 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
well, i have a very defined way to understand who God is:

God is the supreme being of the universe. God is a unbodied mind, He is righteous and just, love, good, free from sin, he is perfect in his character and person, he is righteous in all His attitudes and actions, he is eternal, without a beginning, and without a end, he is omniscient, omnipresent, limitless in authority, immutable, he is the truth. Moreover, God is self-existent, nonspatial, nonmaterial, unimaginably powerful, and personal.
In other words you ignore pain, suffering ,cancer, rape and then make up a stew of traits.

Incoherent at best, imaginary at worst.
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Old 8th May 2012, 07:18 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
In other words you ignore pain, suffering ,cancer, rape and then make up a stew of traits.

Incoherent at best, imaginary at worst.
It's how the sausage of faith is made...
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Old 8th May 2012, 07:20 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Gibhor,

This is just ridiculous! You don't understand evolution, or physics, but are just quote mining, often from scientists who are professed atheists.
No. He is simply trolling. He's hitting every "how to annoy a skeptic" argument.

What I find amusing is that instead of providing positive support for his position, he must attempt to tear down another. That's not the most convincing belief position to hold.
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Old 8th May 2012, 07:22 PM   #313
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Gibhor,
Just two more points about biology:

1. We and all other living creatures are fine tuned to the conditions on the Earth by natural selection; this is an inherent prediction of evolution. The Earth is not fine tuned to us. Puddles of water fit the depression in the road, not the opposite.

2. Similarly, the code in our DNA was not generated at random: it was generated by random mutation followed by natural selection. Over evolutionary time the code expands due to mutation, and then narrows down to the code that works well biologically. There are computer programs that show this happening in front of your eyes. Easy example for you to understand: imagine a random mix of big and small marbles that roll into a sieve under the effects of gravity. You come by latter and notice only the big marbles are on top of the sieve, and only the small ones under it. That's a form of code- must you deduce an intelligent designer created it? Similarly, sand travels further in a stream than pebbles; pebbles further than gold nuggets. Coming on this pattern later, you see a code- small and light deposits are downstream further than large and heavy ones-did an intelligent designer do the sorting?
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Old 8th May 2012, 08:53 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
absolutely. Why do you believe the alternatives, like chance, or physical necessity, are compelling answers to explain these phenomenas?
"Chance" and "physical necessity" are NOT compelling answers to me.

I prefer "predictive aspects" and "productive considerations" to be much more compelling.

"Chance" implies it can't be predicted. Naturalism strives to do better than that, whenever possible. It might not always be possible, but we get better at this, all the time.

"Physical necessity" means nothing. That would be arguing: "It is that way because it is that way".
We can do much better. How about: "We might not know why this physical process is 'necessary', but by studying it, we can put it to good use." Naturalism leads into that sort of innovation-driven in thinking.


Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
if you would study where the scientific method comes from, you would not post what you did.
It doesn't matter where it came from. It matters more where it is going.

Some people just choose explanations for existence that are helpful for getting interesting or important things done. That's all.

Can you give us some examples of how non-naturalistic thinking can be productive in any important way? Can it help us gain new empirical knowledge? Can we develop better ways to fight or manage diseases? Can we predict or manage natural disasters in any better manner? Can it help us fly to Mars (whether or not you think that's important)? Anything?
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Old 8th May 2012, 09:28 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The God i believe in is uncaused, has no beginning , and no end. He just is.
So that IS possible for something as infinitely complex as a moral reasoning intelligent ultra powerful being, but impossible for a dense amount of energy without any extra super powers?

Now if there were any evidence of such a being ever intervening in the universe that would be different, but that has never been found.

Again, please tell me how religion can be used to research medication.
Or proof of prayer working.

Biochemistry using the theory of evolution HAS produced hundreds of active medicines, some of which even you've probably used.
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Old 8th May 2012, 11:51 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
because from absolutely nothing, nothing arises. please prove me wrong.
Why do you think there must have been nothing to begin with?
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Old 9th May 2012, 12:01 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
because from absolutely nothing, nothing arises. please prove me wrong.

OK!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

You are wrong.
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Old 9th May 2012, 12:02 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
well, i have a very defined way to understand who God is:

God is the supreme being of the universe. God is a unbodied mind, He is righteous and just, love, good, free from sin, he is perfect in his character and person, he is righteous in all His attitudes and actions, he is eternal, without a beginning, and without a end, he is omniscient, omnipresent, limitless in authority, immutable, he is the truth. Moreover, God is self-existent, nonspatial, nonmaterial, unimaginably powerful, and personal.

Wait, unbodied minds have gender?

Um...
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Old 9th May 2012, 12:05 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
There is a common knowledge to all humans, which do not have to learn, that kill, steal, cheat, betray, torture etc. of others is a bad thing to do. Where does this knowledge come from ?
Where did you get this idea? Not from the bible.

Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
...http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/v...o/FineTune.pdf
IS THE UNIVERSE FINE-TUNED FOR US?
Thanks for the links!
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Old 9th May 2012, 12:31 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
well, i have a very defined way to understand who God is:

God is the supreme being of the universe. God is a unbodied mind, He is righteous and just, love, good, free from sin, he is perfect in his character and person, he is righteous in all His attitudes and actions, he is eternal, without a beginning, and without a end, he is omniscient, omnipresent, limitless in authority, immutable, he is the truth. Moreover, God is self-existent, nonspatial, nonmaterial, unimaginably powerful, and personal.
I bet he's fun at parties.
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