Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

Puppycow · 6th May 2012, 07:28 PM

Greek Vote Delivers Rejection Of Incumbents, Austerity

Quote:

ATHENS (Dow Jones)--Greek voters Sunday delivered a stinging rejection of Greece's incumbent Socialist and Conservative parties and the austerity program they support, raising the specter of political instability that could ultimately challenge the country's future in the euro zone.

More than 60% of the popular vote went to smaller left- and right-wing parties that have campaigned against the austerity program Greece must implement in exchange for continued financing from its European partners and the International Monetary Fund.

With the country's political landscape dramatically recast, difficult talks for a multi-party coalition were set to follow the election of Greece's most fragmented Parliament since the restoration of democracy and the fall of the military junta in 1974.

But the prospect of a viable government emerging from these talks looked dim, raising the possibility of fresh elections before too long.

The Greek voters' resounding rejection of austerity came on the same day that French voters elected Francois Hollande as president, giving the country a Socialist leader who has pledged to shift the burden of hardship onto the rich and resolve the protracted euro sovereign-debt crisis by softening the current prescription of fiscal stringency.

Interesting times.

MG1962 · 6th May 2012, 07:37 PM

Without knowing what exactly the austerity measures encompass it is hard to be too judgmental of what the Greeks have decided

BravesFan · 6th May 2012, 07:38 PM

I read today that the neo nazi party called Golden Dawn (i think...) has won seats in their parliament. This isn't good.

Tsukasa Buddha · 6th May 2012, 08:11 PM

This is a fun time for a politics junkie like me, but this seems to be the second anti-austerity election in the past few days. Since the recession there has been a trend for more rightist, nationalist parties in Europe (True Finns and National Front are the first to come to mind on the minor party front). But the Labour and Socialist victories this week might to be a change of things. I'm waiting for the breakdown of the vote to see what's what in Greece.

geni · 6th May 2012, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by BravesFan

I read today that the neo nazi party called Golden Dawn (i think...) has won seats in their parliament. This isn't good.

Not very new though. The Popular Orthodox Rally had some interesting people (okey Makis Voridis) elected.

WildCat · 6th May 2012, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Without knowing what exactly the austerity measures encompass it is hard to be too judgmental of what the Greeks have decided

They've decided they still want to live off of other people's money.

They haven't yet figured out who those "other people" are yet though. Say, would you like to buy some Greek government bonds?

MG1962 · 6th May 2012, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

They've decided they still want to live off of other people's money.

They haven't yet figured out who those "other people" are yet though. Say, would you like to buy some Greek government bonds?

Link?

WildCat · 6th May 2012, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Link?

Link to what?

MG1962 · 6th May 2012, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Link to what?

Something supporting your opinion. Maybe they have a similar mind set to many Americans and don't want tax increases despite the level of debt the country currently carries

geni · 6th May 2012, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

They've decided they still want to live off of other people's money.

They haven't yet figured out who those "other people" are yet though. Say, would you like to buy some Greek government bonds?

The largest purchaser was greek banks (which is another problem people don't want to think about).

I think there are some theories that rich greeks should actualy pay some taxes or something (an interesting concept and one supported by the european centeral bank which should give you some idea how clueless they are).

geni · 6th May 2012, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Something supporting your opinion. Maybe they have a similar mind set to many Americans and don't want tax increases despite the level of debt the country currently carries

Tax increases would imply that they pay tax. In practice greece's defict is such that it is not really viable to deal with it through increasing revinue.

Puppycow · 6th May 2012, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by BravesFan

I read today that the neo nazi party called Golden Dawn (i think...) has won seats in their parliament. This isn't good.

Apparently so. They've only won a few seats, but Neo-Nazis? C'mon Greeks.

Some big talk from a small party:
Be afraid, exultant Greek neo-Nazis warn rivals

Quote:

ATHENS — Greek neo-Nazi party Golden Dawn warned rivals and reformers Sunday that "the time for fear has come" after exit polls showed them securing their entry in parliament for the first time in nearly 40 years.

"The time for fear has come for those who betrayed this homeland," Golden Dawn leader Nikos Michaloliakos told a news conference at an Athens hotel, flanked by menacing shaven-headed young men.

"We are coming," the 55-year-old said as supporters threw firecrackers outside.

According to updated exit polls, the once-marginal party will end up winning over six percent of the vote and sending 19 deputies to the 300-seat parliament on a wave of immigration and crime fears, as well as anti-austerity anger.

Exulting in the apparent breakthrough, Michaloliakos quoted Julius Caesar: "Veni, Vidi, Vici" -- I came, I saw, I conquered.

Michaloliakos said his party would fight against "world usurers" and the "slavery" of an EU-IMF loan agreement which he likened to a "dictatorship".

"Greece is only the beginning," he shouted at reporters as he walked to the news conference, accusing foreign media of spreading lies about his movement.

At the last general election in 2009, the virulently anti-immigrant group had scored just 0.29 percent.

WildCat · 6th May 2012, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Something supporting your opinion.

It's right there in the OP - "Greeks reject austerity".

Originally Posted by MG1962

Maybe they have a similar mind set to many Americans and don't want tax increases despite the level of debt the country currently carries

Link?

Puppycow · 6th May 2012, 08:43 PM

Here's the wiki article on Golden Dawn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_%28Greece%29

Their flag very much resembles the Nazi swastika flag.

Quote:

Golden Dawn described itself as a "People's Nationalist Movement" and "uncompromising Nationalists."[3] Michaloliakos described Golden Dawn as opposing the "so-called Enlightenment" and the Industrial Revolution.[3][4] According to the Party's charter, "only Aryans in blood and Greeks in descent can be candidate members of Golden Dawn".[4] Religiously, they currently support the Eastern Orthodox Church.

"Only Aryans". So it is not just hyperbole to call them "neo-Nazis."

geni · 6th May 2012, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Here's the wiki article on Golden Dawn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_%28Greece%29

Their flag very much resembles the Nazi swastika flag.

"Only Aryans". So it is not just hyperbole to call them "neo-Nazis."

As I understand it the far right have had a presence in greek politics for quite a while. I belive the junta found them useful.

MG1962 · 6th May 2012, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

It's right there in the OP - "Greeks reject austerity".

Link?

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_new...ax-debate?lite

See how I did that? Googled "US tax debate" chose the first link and posted on this forum. Now that you have an example try it for yourself and see how you go - just remember opinion does not equal fact

MattusMaximus · 6th May 2012, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by BravesFan

I read today that the neo nazi party called Golden Dawn (i think...) has won seats in their parliament. This isn't good.

You are correct about Golden Dawn.

Yikes. I'm starting to get concerned that this sort of thing might catch on in other European countries as well. If so, that is going to be a very disturbing trend.

Puppycow · 6th May 2012, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

You are correct about Golden Dawn.

Yikes. I'm starting to get concerned that this sort of thing might catch on in other European countries as well. If so, that is going to be a very disturbing trend.

Quote:

Referring to immigrants, Golden Dawn's campaign slogan in TV ads was: "Let's rid this country of the stench."

Charming.

tomwaits · 6th May 2012, 10:16 PM

Maybe they thought they were voting for the Aleister Crowley party?

Howie Felterbush · 6th May 2012, 10:20 PM

Are Greek Nazis worse than Illinois Nazis?

timhau · 6th May 2012, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

This is a fun time for a politics junkie like me, but this seems to be the second anti-austerity election in the past few days. Since the recession there has been a trend for more rightist, nationalist parties in Europe (True Finns and National Front are the first to come to mind on the minor party front). But the Labour and Socialist victories this week might to be a change of things.

Is it? I don't know what the National Front stands for in economics, but the economic policy of True Finns is somewhere way left of our Social Democrats. They have clear nationalist tendencies, but I don't see how they could be characterized as a 'rightist' party.

BravesFan · 6th May 2012, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by howie felterbush

are greek nazis worse than illinois nazis?

Έλληνες Ναζί, μισώ αυτούς τους τύπους

timhau · 6th May 2012, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Apparently so. They've only won a few seats, but Neo-Nazis? C'mon Greeks.

Some big talk from a small party:
Be afraid, exultant Greek neo-Nazis warn rivals

Greek Neo-Nazi leaders quoting a Roman emperor? That's about as silly as having slavic nationalists quoting Hitler.

Oh, wait...

ddt · 7th May 2012, 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by geni

I think there are some theories that rich greeks should actualy pay some taxes or something (an interesting concept and one supported by the european centeral bank which should give you some idea how clueless they are).

Originally Posted by geni

Tax increases would imply that they pay tax. In practice greece's defict is such that it is not really viable to deal with it through increasing revinue.

Do I sense a false dichotomy? Solving the state deficit isn't a question of either budget cuts or increasing government revenue (= increasing taxes). You can also do both. And having the rich pay increased taxes too seems only fair - or in the Greek case, having them pay taxes at all.

a_unique_person · 7th May 2012, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by Howie Felterbush

Are Greek Nazis worse than Illinois Nazis?

I don't think Illinois Nazis ever got elected to Congress.

Childlike Empress · 7th May 2012, 04:25 AM

Detailed results are up on wikipedia.

Apparently they have a rule that the strongest party gets 50 (of 300!) extra seats - that means that the leading ND has 108 seats with 18,9% votes while the second party and big winner Syriza has only 52 seats with 16,8% of votes -, so even if all the winning smaller parties from far-left to far-right would form a coalition excluding the Nazis, they wouldn't technically have enough seats. And ND and PASOK lack two seats on their own to form a coalition. So either they manage to find an additional coalition partner in three days, or Greece has to vote again and the technocrats stay in power for the time being.

Childlike Empress · 7th May 2012, 05:39 AM

Noteworthy from a WSWS analysis:

Quote:

In a further indication of public disgust with the political system, the abstention rate was a record-breaking high of nearly 40 percent, according to estimates from the interior ministry. This is much higher than in the three previous elections, where abstention rates ranged from 25 to 30 percent.

WildCat · 7th May 2012, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_new...ax-debate?lite

See how I did that? Googled "US tax debate" chose the first link and posted on this forum. Now that you have an example try it for yourself and see how you go - just remember opinion does not equal fact

Did you post the wrong article? Nothing in that about Greece or Greeks rejecting austerity because they didn't want tax increases.

MG1962 · 7th May 2012, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Did you post the wrong article? Nothing in that about Greece or Greeks rejecting austerity because they didn't want tax increases.

Playing the old "I am confused card" funny how that always comes out when you get caught out. My link is correct and in context with the post of yours I replied too.

WildCat · 7th May 2012, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Playing the old "I am confused card" funny how that always comes out when you get caught out. My link is correct and in context with the post of yours I replied too.

Your link is completely irelevant to the topic at hand. We're talking about the Greeks rejection of austerity, remember? Read the OP again if you're confused.

So, who are the "other people" whose money the Greeks will tap in order to maintain their lifestyle now that they rejected austerity? I think they'll find foreigners unwilling to throw good money after bad.

MG1962 · 7th May 2012, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Your link is completely irelevant to the topic at hand. We're talking about the Greeks rejection of austerity, remember? Read the OP again if you're confused.

So, who are the "other people" whose money the Greeks will tap in order to maintain their lifestyle now that they rejected austerity? I think they'll find foreigners unwilling to throw good money after bad.

And we are still waiting for you to support your claims about the Greek people and why they rejected the measures

Childlike Empress · 7th May 2012, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Playing the old "I am confused card" funny how that always comes out when you get caught out. My link is correct and in context with the post of yours I replied too.

Yup. Same old, same old. Take it elsewhere, kitten, it's boring.

GreyArea · 7th May 2012, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

I'm waiting for the breakdown of the vote to see what's what in Greece.

This infographic from the Guardian might have the maps and voting details you're looking for.

Childlike Empress · 7th May 2012, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

So either they manage to find an additional coalition partner in three days, or Greece has to vote again and the technocrats stay in power for the time being.

ND has already given up on the coalition-building so now Syriza has the theoretical chance for three days - only possibility is something like "everybody but ND and Nazis". Looks like new elections before mid June.

Mycroft · 7th May 2012, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Did you post the wrong article? Nothing in that about Greece or Greeks rejecting austerity because they didn't want tax increases.

He means it to prove just "...many Americans <snip> don't want tax increases despite the level of debt the country currently carries" and not the complete "Maybe they have a similar mind set to many Americans and don't want tax increases despite the level of debt the country currently carries".

stilicho · 7th May 2012, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Greek Vote Delivers Rejection Of Incumbents, Austerity

Interesting times.

The investment community will make their decisions for them if they don't want to work it out on their own. The worst-case scenario will be punishing bond yields combined with a plunging euro.

WildCat · 7th May 2012, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by MG1962

And we are still waiting for you to support your claims about the Greek people and why they rejected the measures

We know why they rejected the measure - they think that somehow they can continue with the way things were. That's why they rejected austerity.

And as I pointed out, they will find that foreign money is unavailable to fund thier largesse.

Laeke · 7th May 2012, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by timhau

Is it? I don't know what the National Front stands for in economics

In short, and quoting from an article in March (so maybe some more precisions are missing):
- Getting out of the Euro, re-establishing national currency and a national bank.
- France would then borrow money at no interest to French Central Bank to reduce debt to 50% of current level by 2025.
- Lifting minimal wage, paid for through a 3% tax on all importations.
- Freezing oil prices of reducing the VAT tax on it to decrease it.
- A special subsidy for parents once they have two childs or more.

As expected their economic policy ties in with their political ideologies: Exiting UE to regain control at the national level on all matters, protectionism, pandering to the worker classes hugely dependent on their car, favoring natalism. Probably some Vichy France undertones here, I would expect ("work, family and fatherland").
And of course, even if unsaid, you can pretty much expect that their unemployement policy is to get "illegals" and "foreigners" "stealing jobs" out of the country. That was one of the famous posters of the party one or two decades back.

Beware though that in France, a centralized strong state is part of the tradition, even on the right (although the gaullist tradition has pretty much faded away as of today). I am saying this because too often, presence of the state at the economic level is equated with "leftism".

GlennB · 7th May 2012, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

We know why they rejected the measure - they think that somehow they can continue with the way things were. That's why they rejected austerity.

And as I pointed out, they will find that foreign money is unavailable to fund thier largesse.

My bolding.

Um, perhaps not? Perhaps they reject the way things are and would prefer to take their chances outside the Euro? Many have expressed that sentiment in this country.

Just a thought.

timhau · 7th May 2012, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

Um, perhaps not? Perhaps they reject the way things are and would prefer to take their chances outside the Euro?

At least in late december, over 75% of Greeks want to keep the Euro. Only 16% wanted the Drachma back.

Other polls have given similar results, this is just the first one I found when googling.

6th May 2012, 07:28 PM	#1
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,767	Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity Greek Vote Delivers Rejection Of Incumbents, Austerity Quote: ATHENS (Dow Jones)--Greek voters Sunday delivered a stinging rejection of Greece's incumbent Socialist and Conservative parties and the austerity program they support, raising the specter of political instability that could ultimately challenge the country's future in the euro zone. More than 60% of the popular vote went to smaller left- and right-wing parties that have campaigned against the austerity program Greece must implement in exchange for continued financing from its European partners and the International Monetary Fund. With the country's political landscape dramatically recast, difficult talks for a multi-party coalition were set to follow the election of Greece's most fragmented Parliament since the restoration of democracy and the fall of the military junta in 1974. But the prospect of a viable government emerging from these talks looked dim, raising the possibility of fresh elections before too long. The Greek voters' resounding rejection of austerity came on the same day that French voters elected Francois Hollande as president, giving the country a Socialist leader who has pledged to shift the burden of hardship onto the rich and resolve the protracted euro sovereign-debt crisis by softening the current prescription of fiscal stringency. Interesting times.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

6th May 2012, 08:11 PM	#4
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,914	This is a fun time for a politics junkie like me, but this seems to be the second anti-austerity election in the past few days. Since the recession there has been a trend for more rightist, nationalist parties in Europe (True Finns and National Front are the first to come to mind on the minor party front). But the Labour and Socialist victories this week might to be a change of things. I'm waiting for the breakdown of the vote to see what's what in Greece.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

6th May 2012, 08:36 PM	#12
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,767	Originally Posted by BravesFan I read today that the neo nazi party called Golden Dawn (i think...) has won seats in their parliament. This isn't good. Apparently so. They've only won a few seats, but Neo-Nazis? C'mon Greeks. Some big talk from a small party: Be afraid, exultant Greek neo-Nazis warn rivals Quote: ATHENS — Greek neo-Nazi party Golden Dawn warned rivals and reformers Sunday that "the time for fear has come" after exit polls showed them securing their entry in parliament for the first time in nearly 40 years. "The time for fear has come for those who betrayed this homeland," Golden Dawn leader Nikos Michaloliakos told a news conference at an Athens hotel, flanked by menacing shaven-headed young men. "We are coming," the 55-year-old said as supporters threw firecrackers outside. According to updated exit polls, the once-marginal party will end up winning over six percent of the vote and sending 19 deputies to the 300-seat parliament on a wave of immigration and crime fears, as well as anti-austerity anger. Exulting in the apparent breakthrough, Michaloliakos quoted Julius Caesar: "Veni, Vidi, Vici" -- I came, I saw, I conquered. Michaloliakos said his party would fight against "world usurers" and the "slavery" of an EU-IMF loan agreement which he likened to a "dictatorship". "Greece is only the beginning," he shouted at reporters as he walked to the news conference, accusing foreign media of spreading lies about his movement. At the last general election in 2009, the virulently anti-immigrant group had scored just 0.29 percent.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

6th May 2012, 08:43 PM	#14
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,767	Here's the wiki article on Golden Dawn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_%28Greece%29 Their flag very much resembles the Nazi swastika flag. Quote: Golden Dawn described itself as a "People's Nationalist Movement" and "uncompromising Nationalists."[3] Michaloliakos described Golden Dawn as opposing the "so-called Enlightenment" and the Industrial Revolution.[3][4] According to the Party's charter, "only Aryans in blood and Greeks in descent can be candidate members of Golden Dawn".[4] Religiously, they currently support the Eastern Orthodox Church. "Only Aryans". So it is not just hyperbole to call them "neo-Nazis."
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

6th May 2012, 09:47 PM	#17
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,175	Originally Posted by BravesFan I read today that the neo nazi party called Golden Dawn (i think...) has won seats in their parliament. This isn't good. You are correct about Golden Dawn. Yikes. I'm starting to get concerned that this sort of thing might catch on in other European countries as well. If so, that is going to be a very disturbing trend.
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher The Times They Are A-Changin'

6th May 2012, 07:37 PM	#2
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Without knowing what exactly the austerity measures encompass it is hard to be too judgmental of what the Greeks have decided

6th May 2012, 07:38 PM	#3
BravesFan Banned Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Ocean Springs, Ms Posts: 1,784	I read today that the neo nazi party called Golden Dawn (i think...) has won seats in their parliament. This isn't good.

6th May 2012, 08:20 PM	#5
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,570	Originally Posted by BravesFan I read today that the neo nazi party called Golden Dawn (i think...) has won seats in their parliament. This isn't good. Not very new though. The Popular Orthodox Rally had some interesting people (okey Makis Voridis) elected.

6th May 2012, 08:26 PM	#6
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,066	Originally Posted by MG1962 Without knowing what exactly the austerity measures encompass it is hard to be too judgmental of what the Greeks have decided They've decided they still want to live off of other people's money. They haven't yet figured out who those "other people" are yet though. Say, would you like to buy some Greek government bonds?

6th May 2012, 08:26 PM	#7
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by WildCat They've decided they still want to live off of other people's money. They haven't yet figured out who those "other people" are yet though. Say, would you like to buy some Greek government bonds? Link?

6th May 2012, 08:27 PM	#8
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,066	Originally Posted by MG1962 Link? Link to what?

6th May 2012, 08:31 PM	#9
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by WildCat Link to what? Something supporting your opinion. Maybe they have a similar mind set to many Americans and don't want tax increases despite the level of debt the country currently carries

6th May 2012, 08:36 PM	#11
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,570	Originally Posted by MG1962 Something supporting your opinion. Maybe they have a similar mind set to many Americans and don't want tax increases despite the level of debt the country currently carries Tax increases would imply that they pay tax. In practice greece's defict is such that it is not really viable to deal with it through increasing revinue.

6th May 2012, 08:41 PM	#13
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,066	Originally Posted by MG1962 Something supporting your opinion. It's right there in the OP - "Greeks reject austerity". Originally Posted by MG1962 Maybe they have a similar mind set to many Americans and don't want tax increases despite the level of debt the country currently carries Link?

6th May 2012, 08:55 PM	#15
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,570	Originally Posted by Puppycow Here's the wiki article on Golden Dawn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_%28Greece%29 Their flag very much resembles the Nazi swastika flag. "Only Aryans". So it is not just hyperbole to call them "neo-Nazis." As I understand it the far right have had a presence in greek politics for quite a while. I belive the junta found them useful.

6th May 2012, 09:02 PM	#16
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by WildCat It's right there in the OP - "Greeks reject austerity". Link? http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_new...ax-debate?lite See how I did that? Googled "US tax debate" chose the first link and posted on this forum. Now that you have an example try it for yourself and see how you go - just remember opinion does not equal fact

6th May 2012, 09:58 PM	#18
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,767	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus You are correct about Golden Dawn. Yikes. I'm starting to get concerned that this sort of thing might catch on in other European countries as well. If so, that is going to be a very disturbing trend. Quote: Referring to immigrants, Golden Dawn's campaign slogan in TV ads was: "Let's rid this country of the stench." Charming.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

6th May 2012, 10:16 PM	#19
tomwaits Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chicago, IL, USA Posts: 2,288	Maybe they thought they were voting for the Aleister Crowley party?

6th May 2012, 10:20 PM	#20
Howie Felterbush Bow Tie Daddy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In the twilight, singing all the old lullabies Posts: 5,333	Are Greek Nazis worse than Illinois Nazis?
	__________________ "Don't be too offended by the likes of him - I hear he doesn't even own ascots." -JoeyDonuts "I must be more tired than I thought. Howie, you are starting to make sense." -MG1962 "You're a mean old evil cynic. And mean." Halfcentaur

6th May 2012, 10:28 PM	#21
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,674	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha This is a fun time for a politics junkie like me, but this seems to be the second anti-austerity election in the past few days. Since the recession there has been a trend for more rightist, nationalist parties in Europe (True Finns and National Front are the first to come to mind on the minor party front). But the Labour and Socialist victories this week might to be a change of things. Is it? I don't know what the National Front stands for in economics, but the economic policy of True Finns is somewhere way left of our Social Democrats. They have clear nationalist tendencies, but I don't see how they could be characterized as a 'rightist' party.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

6th May 2012, 10:29 PM	#22
BravesFan Banned Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Ocean Springs, Ms Posts: 1,784	Originally Posted by howie felterbush are greek nazis worse than illinois nazis? Έλληνες Ναζί, μισώ αυτούς τους τύπους

6th May 2012, 10:36 PM	#23
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,674	Originally Posted by Puppycow Apparently so. They've only won a few seats, but Neo-Nazis? C'mon Greeks. Some big talk from a small party: Be afraid, exultant Greek neo-Nazis warn rivals Greek Neo-Nazi leaders quoting a Roman emperor? That's about as silly as having slavic nationalists quoting Hitler. Oh, wait...
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

7th May 2012, 02:56 AM	#24
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,324	Originally Posted by geni I think there are some theories that rich greeks should actualy pay some taxes or something (an interesting concept and one supported by the european centeral bank which should give you some idea how clueless they are). Originally Posted by geni Tax increases would imply that they pay tax. In practice greece's defict is such that it is not really viable to deal with it through increasing revinue. Do I sense a false dichotomy? Solving the state deficit isn't a question of either budget cuts or increasing government revenue (= increasing taxes). You can also do both. And having the rich pay increased taxes too seems only fair - or in the Greek case, having them pay taxes at all.
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7th May 2012, 04:24 AM	#25
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,328	Originally Posted by Howie Felterbush Are Greek Nazis worse than Illinois Nazis? I don't think Illinois Nazis ever got elected to Congress.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

7th May 2012, 04:25 AM	#26
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,835	Detailed results are up on wikipedia. Apparently they have a rule that the strongest party gets 50 (of 300!) extra seats - that means that the leading ND has 108 seats with 18,9% votes while the second party and big winner Syriza has only 52 seats with 16,8% of votes -, so even if all the winning smaller parties from far-left to far-right would form a coalition excluding the Nazis, they wouldn't technically have enough seats. And ND and PASOK lack two seats on their own to form a coalition. So either they manage to find an additional coalition partner in three days, or Greece has to vote again and the technocrats stay in power for the time being.
	__________________ Breaking The Set Last edited by Childlike Empress; 7th May 2012 at 04:35 AM.

7th May 2012, 05:39 AM	#27
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,835	Noteworthy from a WSWS analysis: Quote: In a further indication of public disgust with the political system, the abstention rate was a record-breaking high of nearly 40 percent, according to estimates from the interior ministry. This is much higher than in the three previous elections, where abstention rates ranged from 25 to 30 percent.
	__________________ Breaking The Set

7th May 2012, 05:56 AM	#28
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,066	Originally Posted by MG1962 http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_new...ax-debate?lite See how I did that? Googled "US tax debate" chose the first link and posted on this forum. Now that you have an example try it for yourself and see how you go - just remember opinion does not equal fact Did you post the wrong article? Nothing in that about Greece or Greeks rejecting austerity because they didn't want tax increases.

7th May 2012, 06:23 AM	#29
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by WildCat Did you post the wrong article? Nothing in that about Greece or Greeks rejecting austerity because they didn't want tax increases. Playing the old "I am confused card" funny how that always comes out when you get caught out. My link is correct and in context with the post of yours I replied too.

7th May 2012, 06:28 AM	#30
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,066	Originally Posted by MG1962 Playing the old "I am confused card" funny how that always comes out when you get caught out. My link is correct and in context with the post of yours I replied too. Your link is completely irelevant to the topic at hand. We're talking about the Greeks rejection of austerity, remember? Read the OP again if you're confused. So, who are the "other people" whose money the Greeks will tap in order to maintain their lifestyle now that they rejected austerity? I think they'll find foreigners unwilling to throw good money after bad.

7th May 2012, 06:41 AM	#31
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by WildCat Your link is completely irelevant to the topic at hand. We're talking about the Greeks rejection of austerity, remember? Read the OP again if you're confused. So, who are the "other people" whose money the Greeks will tap in order to maintain their lifestyle now that they rejected austerity? I think they'll find foreigners unwilling to throw good money after bad. And we are still waiting for you to support your claims about the Greek people and why they rejected the measures

7th May 2012, 06:55 AM	#32
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,835	Originally Posted by MG1962 Playing the old "I am confused card" funny how that always comes out when you get caught out. My link is correct and in context with the post of yours I replied too. Yup. Same old, same old. Take it elsewhere, kitten, it's boring.
	__________________ Breaking The Set

7th May 2012, 08:57 AM	#33
GreyArea Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,000	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha I'm waiting for the breakdown of the vote to see what's what in Greece. This infographic from the Guardian might have the maps and voting details you're looking for.
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7th May 2012, 11:49 AM	#34
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,835	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress So either they manage to find an additional coalition partner in three days, or Greece has to vote again and the technocrats stay in power for the time being. ND has already given up on the coalition-building so now Syriza has the theoretical chance for three days - only possibility is something like "everybody but ND and Nazis". Looks like new elections before mid June.
	__________________ Breaking The Set Last edited by Childlike Empress; 7th May 2012 at 11:50 AM.

7th May 2012, 11:51 AM	#35
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Originally Posted by WildCat Did you post the wrong article? Nothing in that about Greece or Greeks rejecting austerity because they didn't want tax increases. He means it to prove just "...many Americans <snip> don't want tax increases despite the level of debt the country currently carries" and not the complete "Maybe they have a similar mind set to many Americans and don't want tax increases despite the level of debt the country currently carries".
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7th May 2012, 11:58 AM	#36
stilicho Trurl's Electronic Bard Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 4,714	Originally Posted by Puppycow Greek Vote Delivers Rejection Of Incumbents, Austerity Interesting times. The investment community will make their decisions for them if they don't want to work it out on their own. The worst-case scenario will be punishing bond yields combined with a plunging euro.
	__________________ "Suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. Suddenly someone will say, 'Plate' or 'Shrimp' or 'Plate of shrimp,' out of the blue. No explanation and there's no point in looking for one either. It's all part of the cosmic unconsciousness." -- REPO MAN LondonJohn: "I don't need to cite."