FREE TAPATALK APP

therival58 · 6th May 2012, 09:06 PM

Hey all,

I was wondering - can anyone name a documented case where someone who experienced a NDE recall events that occurred during the time they were pronounced "dead" and confirmed by witnesses?

(For example: a patient is pronounced "dead", and during that time lets say a doctor/witness writes something on a board or performs an action and then when the patient is revived, recalls what was written or what action was done.)

The reason I bring this up is because NDEs are a very puzzling concept for me who no longer believes in an afterlife, and I recall hearing/watching a video in which the above occurred but the name escapes me.

I'm not sure if I articulated the question in the clearest way so if anyone needs a clarification on what I'm asking please let me know.

Thanks!

marplots · 6th May 2012, 09:52 PM

Does it have to be a live person?

I only ask because there are probably a lot more that didn't survive -- just statistically, you'd expect more of the dead to have had visions like that.

Pixel42 · 6th May 2012, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by therival58

I was wondering - can anyone name a documented case where someone who experienced a NDE recall events that occurred during the time they were pronounced "dead" and confirmed by witnesses?

The evidence, such as it is, is anecdotal. There have been a couple of attempts to gather scientific evidence which have so far shown nothing.

Here's a good summary: http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html

Rasmus · 7th May 2012, 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by marplots

Does it have to be a live person?

No.

In fact, if you could get a reliable statement from a dead person, that would pretty much answer the question, wouldn't it?

ExMinister · 7th May 2012, 07:11 AM

You might find this interesting:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ine/HNDEs.html

Very thorough and addresses several well-known NDE cases.

therival58 · 7th May 2012, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by marplots

Does it have to be a live person?

I only ask because there are probably a lot more that didn't survive -- just statistically, you'd expect more of the dead to have had visions like that.

But see, those people who didn't survive would not have had a "near death" experience would they?

marplots · 7th May 2012, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by therival58

But see, those people who didn't survive would not have had a "near death" experience would they?

Well, they were probably near death before they died. On the other hand, I drive on the expressway, so I'm near death all the time. Sometimes, I'm just inches away. From my experience, "near death" includes a huge dose of adrenalin and some colorful language.

But while we are on the subject, has anyone had a "near birth" experience? I can't recall any.

marplots · 7th May 2012, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

No.

In fact, if you could get a reliable statement from a dead person, that would pretty much answer the question, wouldn't it?

It's tough. From what I understand, you can use torture, but then you can't rely on the info you get. I suspect there's some kind of non-disclosure statement in effect -- "They tell no tales."

Jomante · 7th May 2012, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

No.

In fact, if you could get a reliable statement from a dead person, that would pretty much answer the question, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by marplots

It's tough. From what I understand, you can use torture, but then you can't rely on the info you get. I suspect there's some kind of non-disclosure statement in effect -- "They tell no tales."

Don't try. It's like beating a....dead horse.

Stomatopoda · 7th May 2012, 06:00 PM

If you want to study "near-death" experiences, just smoke some DMT. The trip reports are practically identical to NDE reports.

Rasmus · 8th May 2012, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by Jomante

Don't try. It's like beating a....dead horse.

If you have a horse that's dead anyway, you could make your dead person an offer they can't refuse...

George152 · 8th May 2012, 01:59 PM

Don't undertakers and grave diggers have constant near death experiences all the time??
Why hasn't any-one interviewed them ?

wheunis · 8th May 2012, 02:15 PM

Humor apart.

I wouldn't exactly categorize my own experience as near death; Nor would I advocate this as even proof of consciousness during coma.

I had a really bad motorcycle accident when I was young. I broke nearly every bone in the left side of my body.
I do not recall the accident, nor do I recall anything from that day at all.

I was comatose for 3 days. I had never been in that hospital, or any other medical facilty of any sort in that area.
When I woke up, the nurse was there. She was tending to the patient in the bed next to mine.
I asked as loud as I could, which hurt as hell as dry as my mouth was, for her to call Doctor Seebold.
She did exactly that.

I have always wondered how I knew the doctor's name at all. I never bothered to find out if he was my surgeon, attending doctor, or what exactly his involvement was with me during that time.
For all I know, during me awakening, I very well may have simply heard his name being called over the intercom/PA system. Did I hear the name in surgery or while comatose? Did I read his nameplate when he did his rounds?

/shrug.
No way of knowing.
And it doesn't bother me very much at all tbh.

Hellbound · 9th May 2012, 05:52 AM

Well, coma is pretty far different from NDE. There's pretty good evidence that people can still be aware, on some level, even in a coma (depending on how deep the coma is, etc). Most likely you heard the Doctor's name several times while you were out.

NDEs are said to occur not during coma, but during an actual death. Of course, it's always a bit fuzzy just what is meant by "dead"...as far as I know there is no clear definition. Most of these stories refer to cardiac arrest: a stopping of the heart. But that won't kill you for a bit. I don't know of any NDE that has been shown to occur during a time of brain death, for example. Plus, there's no reliable way to determine if, for example, a person's experience actually occurred during the "dead" time frame, or if it occurred before or after as the body was shuttinndown/starting up.

Arouet · 9th May 2012, 11:44 AM

I believe up to 30% of NDEs have been found to occur when the person was actually not in danger of dying but may have thought they were.

I'm not sure the studies comparing various drugs to NDEs are saying that they are exactly the same, but rather that they share certain elements and may involve similar brain functions. Certainly more study is needed.

The AWARE study currently going on by Dr. Sam Parnia purports to be the largest and most comprehensive study of NDEs to date - will be interesting to see what the findings are.

truethat · 9th May 2012, 11:56 AM

Curious about something. I don't see why people would try to assume that NDE require a physical reality, obviously something is going on in the brain. Often there is this sense of "return" or revival, sometimes with a choice. I'm curious if this unusual reaction has to do with the brain choosing to shut down. Can the brain kill itself?

I'm curious if the brain can continue to "think" after the physical death of the body. How long does it exactly take for the brain to die.

Perhaps this NDE sensation is really the brain trying to figure out what to do?

marplots · 9th May 2012, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Arouet

I believe up to 30% of NDEs have been found to occur when the person was actually not in danger of dying but may have thought they were.

This is an important point. This is why I think you should only trust NDE's from those who died and remained dead. Barring that, it's just medical conjecture.

Arouet · 9th May 2012, 01:09 PM

haha, sure, but there clearly is something interesting going on that's worth studyng. Parnia's study should add to our understanding of them, one way or another! Remember, its more than just seeing if people report seeing the signs he's placed over the hospital bed, he's also monitoring what is going on in the brain during the NDE- should be interesting, whatever he finds!

6th May 2012, 09:06 PM	#1
therival58 Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 324	Near Death Experiences - Seeing the present while pronounced "dead" Hey all, I was wondering - can anyone name a documented case where someone who experienced a NDE recall events that occurred during the time they were pronounced "dead" and confirmed by witnesses? (For example: a patient is pronounced "dead", and during that time lets say a doctor/witness writes something on a board or performs an action and then when the patient is revived, recalls what was written or what action was done.) The reason I bring this up is because NDEs are a very puzzling concept for me who no longer believes in an afterlife, and I recall hearing/watching a video in which the above occurred but the name escapes me. I'm not sure if I articulated the question in the clearest way so if anyone needs a clarification on what I'm asking please let me know. Thanks!
	Last edited by therival58; 6th May 2012 at 09:13 PM.

6th May 2012, 09:52 PM	#2
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,643	Does it have to be a live person? I only ask because there are probably a lot more that didn't survive -- just statistically, you'd expect more of the dead to have had visions like that.
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,643

6th May 2012, 11:30 PM	#3
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,458	Originally Posted by therival58 I was wondering - can anyone name a documented case where someone who experienced a NDE recall events that occurred during the time they were pronounced "dead" and confirmed by witnesses? The evidence, such as it is, is anecdotal. There have been a couple of attempts to gather scientific evidence which have so far shown nothing. Here's a good summary: http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html
	__________________ "The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause". David Attenborough.

7th May 2012, 12:03 AM	#4
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,139	Originally Posted by marplots Does it have to be a live person? No. In fact, if you could get a reliable statement from a dead person, that would pretty much answer the question, wouldn't it?
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,139	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

7th May 2012, 07:11 AM	#5
ExMinister RSL Acolyte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,759	You might find this interesting: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ine/HNDEs.html Very thorough and addresses several well-known NDE cases.
ExMinister RSL Acolyte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,759	__________________ www.stopsylvia.com

7th May 2012, 08:27 AM	#6
therival58 Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 324	Originally Posted by marplots Does it have to be a live person? I only ask because there are probably a lot more that didn't survive -- just statistically, you'd expect more of the dead to have had visions like that. But see, those people who didn't survive would not have had a "near death" experience would they?
	Last edited by therival58; 7th May 2012 at 08:32 AM.

7th May 2012, 08:39 AM	#7
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,643	Originally Posted by therival58 But see, those people who didn't survive would not have had a "near death" experience would they? Well, they were probably near death before they died. On the other hand, I drive on the expressway, so I'm near death all the time. Sometimes, I'm just inches away. From my experience, "near death" includes a huge dose of adrenalin and some colorful language. But while we are on the subject, has anyone had a "near birth" experience? I can't recall any.
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,643

7th May 2012, 08:41 AM	#8
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,643	Originally Posted by Rasmus No. In fact, if you could get a reliable statement from a dead person, that would pretty much answer the question, wouldn't it? It's tough. From what I understand, you can use torture, but then you can't rely on the info you get. I suspect there's some kind of non-disclosure statement in effect -- "They tell no tales."
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,643

7th May 2012, 03:05 PM	#9
Jomante Thinker Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 221	Originally Posted by Rasmus No. In fact, if you could get a reliable statement from a dead person, that would pretty much answer the question, wouldn't it? Originally Posted by marplots It's tough. From what I understand, you can use torture, but then you can't rely on the info you get. I suspect there's some kind of non-disclosure statement in effect -- "They tell no tales." Don't try. It's like beating a....dead horse.
Jomante Thinker Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 221

7th May 2012, 06:00 PM	#10
Stomatopoda Muse Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 892	If you want to study "near-death" experiences, just smoke some DMT. The trip reports are practically identical to NDE reports.
Stomatopoda Muse Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 892

8th May 2012, 02:55 AM	#11
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,139	Originally Posted by Jomante Don't try. It's like beating a....dead horse. If you have a horse that's dead anyway, you could make your dead person an offer they can't refuse...
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,139	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

8th May 2012, 01:59 PM	#12
George152 Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hamilton New Zealand Posts: 2,054	Don't undertakers and grave diggers have constant near death experiences all the time?? Why hasn't any-one interviewed them ?
	__________________ Unemployment isn't working

8th May 2012, 02:15 PM	#13
wheunis Thinker Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 157	Humor apart. I wouldn't exactly categorize my own experience as near death; Nor would I advocate this as even proof of consciousness during coma. I had a really bad motorcycle accident when I was young. I broke nearly every bone in the left side of my body. I do not recall the accident, nor do I recall anything from that day at all. I was comatose for 3 days. I had never been in that hospital, or any other medical facilty of any sort in that area. When I woke up, the nurse was there. She was tending to the patient in the bed next to mine. I asked as loud as I could, which hurt as hell as dry as my mouth was, for her to call Doctor Seebold. She did exactly that. I have always wondered how I knew the doctor's name at all. I never bothered to find out if he was my surgeon, attending doctor, or what exactly his involvement was with me during that time. For all I know, during me awakening, I very well may have simply heard his name being called over the intercom/PA system. Did I hear the name in surgery or while comatose? Did I read his nameplate when he did his rounds? /shrug. No way of knowing. And it doesn't bother me very much at all tbh.
wheunis Thinker Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 157

9th May 2012, 05:52 AM	#14
Hellbound Abiogenic Spongiform Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a handbasket Posts: 9,030	Well, coma is pretty far different from NDE. There's pretty good evidence that people can still be aware, on some level, even in a coma (depending on how deep the coma is, etc). Most likely you heard the Doctor's name several times while you were out. NDEs are said to occur not during coma, but during an actual death. Of course, it's always a bit fuzzy just what is meant by "dead"...as far as I know there is no clear definition. Most of these stories refer to cardiac arrest: a stopping of the heart. But that won't kill you for a bit. I don't know of any NDE that has been shown to occur during a time of brain death, for example. Plus, there's no reliable way to determine if, for example, a person's experience actually occurred during the "dead" time frame, or if it occurred before or after as the body was shuttinndown/starting up.

9th May 2012, 11:44 AM	#15
Arouet Thinker Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Toronto Posts: 165	I believe up to 30% of NDEs have been found to occur when the person was actually not in danger of dying but may have thought they were. I'm not sure the studies comparing various drugs to NDEs are saying that they are exactly the same, but rather that they share certain elements and may involve similar brain functions. Certainly more study is needed. The AWARE study currently going on by Dr. Sam Parnia purports to be the largest and most comprehensive study of NDEs to date - will be interesting to see what the findings are.
	__________________ _{Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd - Voltaire}

9th May 2012, 11:56 AM	#16
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,005	Curious about something. I don't see why people would try to assume that NDE require a physical reality, obviously something is going on in the brain. Often there is this sense of "return" or revival, sometimes with a choice. I'm curious if this unusual reaction has to do with the brain choosing to shut down. Can the brain kill itself? I'm curious if the brain can continue to "think" after the physical death of the body. How long does it exactly take for the brain to die. Perhaps this NDE sensation is really the brain trying to figure out what to do?
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 9,005	__________________ “Now I understand what is so intriguing about Zombie themed movies. When the pile on of stupid begins it's like being trapped in a Zombie movie. Seemingly normal people have suddenly turned into brainless gobs of hostility” ― Dan

9th May 2012, 12:10 PM	#17
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,643	Originally Posted by Arouet I believe up to 30% of NDEs have been found to occur when the person was actually not in danger of dying but may have thought they were. This is an important point. This is why I think you should only trust NDE's from those who died and remained dead. Barring that, it's just medical conjecture.
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,643

9th May 2012, 01:09 PM	#18
Arouet Thinker Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Toronto Posts: 165	haha, sure, but there clearly is something interesting going on that's worth studyng. Parnia's study should add to our understanding of them, one way or another! Remember, its more than just seeing if people report seeing the signs he's placed over the hospital bed, he's also monitoring what is going on in the brain during the NDE- should be interesting, whatever he finds!
	__________________ _{Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd - Voltaire}