What does science think schizophrenia is?

[MNBrant]

while going to posts written by MNBrant I found this one in 2009 that seems insanely funny to me. I don't remember posting it but I know I did because I am against gun control. Could I be schizophrenic? It was the banning game.

MY name is Penguin too. I can do anything I want when the batman goes on vacation. And my henchmen all waddle like penguins just the the real one. And they don't carry guns.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

I can. I used to be not able to but now I can. Sometimes we can be sitting next to one another and have a chat. I get messages in chat forums, in person, in the media, and in my head. In an earlier post I, I posted that my sister was seen wearing an image of a black angel on her tee shirt and sometime later was disagnosed with advanced liver disease and is dying. Soon thereafter someone said in a chat room I was in that she will have wings. When I asked the person directly why he said that, he said I feel a little confused. I take 2, 4 mg doses of pherphenizine with 2, .5 mg doses of klonopin. I have another 8 mgs pherphenizine prn and a 10mg olanzapine prn that I can take if I hear voices. I manage my own meds, telling my doctor what I want to take and at what dose.

Just curious, why the perphenazine as the main medication, instead of the olanzapine? Usually teh consistent dosing with an ATP has fewer side effects.

[MNBrant]

Pherphenizine has fewer metabolic side effects like blood sugar and weight. I get akathasia which is controlled by the klonopin.

[Tatyana]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

while going to posts written by MNBrant I found this one in 2009 that seems insanely funny to me. I don't remember posting it but I know I did because I am against gun control. Could I be schizophrenic? It was the banning game.

MY name is Penguin too. I can do anything I want when the batman goes on vacation. And my henchmen all waddle like penguins just the the real one. And they don't carry guns.

I remember when you first started posting I thought you were really funny.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

Pherphenizine has fewer metabolic side effects like blood sugar and weight. I get akathasia which is controlled by the klonopin.

Fair enough, I am just suprized because of the other side effects. Did the olanzapine have you gaining weight?

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

What does science currently believe schizophrenia is?

Science doesn't believe anything. It's a thing.

[MNBrant]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Fair enough, I am just suprized because of the other side effects. Did the olanzapine have you gaining weight?

that, and diabetes. It is more effective than pherphenizine though.

[MNBrant]

Originally Posted by Tatyana

I remember when you first started posting I thought you were really funny.

I always wondered about the pig reference. Was that a reference to demon possession, my weight, or some sort of sacrifice? My wife refers to me as piggy too. I am guessing weight but how would forum posters know that? It could also mean that I am decended from animals and in fact my wife refers to me as animal at times too.

[Tatyana]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

I always wondered about the pig reference. Was that a reference to demon possession, my weight, or some sort of sacrifice? My wife refers to me as piggy too. I am guessing weight but how would forum posters know that? It could also mean that I am decended from animals and in fact my wife refers to me as animal at times too.

I would guess it is a term of endearment because she loves you.

You could always ask her.

Other than that, I may entirely be missing the point you are making.

[MNBrant]

Thats what it seems to be. She is foul mouthed in general. Since she got pregnant she is getting more mellow though.

[ExMinister]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

I can. I used to be not able to but now I can. Sometimes we can be sitting next to one another and have a chat. I get messages in chat forums, in person, in the media, and in my head. In an earlier post I, I posted that my sister was seen wearing an image of a black angel on her tee shirt and sometime later was disagnosed with advanced liver disease and is dying. Soon thereafter someone said in a chat room I was in that she will have wings. When I asked the person directly why he said that, he said I feel a little confused. I take 2, 4 mg doses of pherphenizine with 2, .5 mg doses of klonopin. I have another 8 mgs pherphenizine prn and a 10mg olanzapine prn that I can take if I hear voices. I manage my own meds, telling my doctor what I want to take and at what dose.

So at times like this, when you feel you are getting messages from the media, etc., do you still feel high-functioning or does it interfere in your life? Are you ever free of this, or do you choose to keep it this way by adjusting your medications?

At any rate, I know that is off your main topic, about what science thinks, and is probably none of my business.

I think a lot of people with SZ feel it can't possibly be a brain phenomenon because the voices/presences seem so completely "not them," and from what little I have learned about the actual experience of it, I think that is an understandable way to feel. But that is indeed what science thinks, and with all of the changes beginning to be discovered in the brains of people with SZ, not to mention the well-established genetic basis (twin studies, etc.), it seems there is good reason to think so.

[mijopaalmc]

There is some dispute over whether schizophrenia is a well-defined construct. Schizophrenia (the called dementia praecox) and bipolar disorder (then call manic-depressive insanity) were originally distinguished from one another based on some aspects of clinical presentation and pharmacological intervention that were apparently relatively arbitrary.

The existences of brief reactive psychoses, psychotic mood disorders, and schizoaffective disorder call the dichotomy between schizophrenia and mood disorders into question.

[Zeuzzz]

I think that endogenous production of psychoactive type neurochemicals is a major factor in schizophrenic type symptoms. Thus why a lot of people with schizophrenia like self medicating with recreational drugs, especially cannabis; which ironically usually makes the symptoms worse in the long run even if the person gets a short lived relief. Anti-psychotics tend to shut down such brain functions, probably stopping the production of the chemicals that produce the hallucinatory effects. In terms of what neurochemicals create this effect I don't think anyone really knows yet.

I know two people with schizophrenia and they are both extremely nice people that are able to function perfectly normally when not in an acute stage of their condition.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc

There is some dispute over whether schizophrenia is a well-defined construct. Schizophrenia (the called dementia praecox) and bipolar disorder (then call manic-depressive insanity) were originally distinguished from one another based on some aspects of clinical presentation and pharmacological intervention that were apparently relatively arbitrary.

The existences of brief reactive psychoses, psychotic mood disorders, and schizoaffective disorder call the dichotomy between schizophrenia and mood disorders into question.

The forms of schizophrenia would suggest this, which is why I mentioned the broad categories:

-disorganised, catatonic, paranoid, which really are good descriptors, because they don't really match with the words in the case of paranoid.

-disorganized is areal thing these are the people who show major thought disruption and thought disorders

-catatonia is a real thing as well, however not very commonly seen because of medication, it used to be considered to be associated with the degenerative schizophrenias as well

paranoid would be better characterized as 'primarily associated with delusions' and high functioning

the other two (not in the DSM)

-predominant negative symptoms

-affective features

And the other things to consider: there are currently over 300 chemicals implicated in neurotransmission, so there are going to be a huge potential of possible paths to schizophrenia

And as you rightly point out then there are the other forms of psychosis and affective components. I don't think it is a dichotomy in practice, too many clients/patients have mixed symptoms for that. And there are huge battles between psychiatrists over where those lines lie, some use schizophrenia, some use bipolar disorder.

One of my supervisors suggested that ideally the categories would really be spectrum. And you could use a pyramid with four points:

-psychosis
-depression
-mania
-anxiety

And categories people on those four scales, however it leaves out the negative symptoms.

Then there are the weird things like intrusive thoughts in OCD, which look a lot like delusions, but aren't

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

I think that endogenous production of psychoactive type neurochemicals is a major factor in schizophrenic type symptoms. Thus why a lot of people with schizophrenia like self medicating with recreational drugs, especially cannabis; which ironically usually makes the symptoms worse in the long run even if the person gets a short lived relief. Anti-psychotics tend to shut down such brain functions, probably stopping the production of the chemicals that produce the hallucinatory effects. In terms of what neurochemicals create this effect I don't think anyone really knows yet.

I know two people with schizophrenia and they are both extremely nice people that are able to function perfectly normally when not in an acute stage of their condition.

And the evidence of these high levels of endogeous psychoactive neurochemicals in people with schizophrenia?

[MNBrant]

I do not take illegal drugs, smoke, or drink. Most of what I have heard I am somewhat secretive about as from what I hear, as hallucinations supposedly can affect reality. I am not really sure how. Maybe sane people believe the hallucinations, or that they can really change reality.

[ExMinister]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

I do not take illegal drugs, smoke, or drink. Most of what I have heard I am somewhat secretive about as from what I hear, as hallucinations supposedly can affect reality. I am not really sure how. Maybe sane people believe the hallucinations, or that they can really change reality.

MNBrant, you don't have to be secretive for that reason. Sane people do not believe hallucinations can affect or change reality in any way. Just the opposite. Sane people believe hallucinations are produced by the brain.

That said, an internet forum may not necessarily the best place to share them anyway. A family member, good friend, counselor or someone you know personally might be better.

It's also possible an adjustment or increase in your medications could help you to get a little better perspective on the nature of the hallucinations.

[AdMan]

Originally Posted by ExMinister

If you're interested in schizophrenia and the experience of voices, this is one person's account that it is very interesting:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...ghlight=case46

What an amazing thread, which I had completely missed! One of the most interesting I've read in the forums.

Thanks for linking to it.

[Andrew Wiggin]

Originally Posted by Tatyana

I remember when you first started posting I thought you were really funny.

Yah. It doesn't last though.

[MNBrant]

Originally Posted by ExMinister

MNBrant, you don't have to be secretive for that reason. Sane people do not believe hallucinations can affect or change reality in any way. Just the opposite. Sane people believe hallucinations are produced by the brain.

That said, an internet forum may not necessarily the best place to share them anyway. A family member, good friend, counselor or someone you know personally might be better.

It's also possible an adjustment or increase in your medications could help you to get a little better perspective on the nature of the hallucinations.

Its pretty hard for you to make that assumption since I have given you very little information to support it. Thanks ok, thats what sane educated people do. That is why I am secretive about it. I am sure that upping my meds would give me a new perspective on things but, I am not prepared for the side effects.

[MNBrant]

Originally Posted by AdMan

What an amazing thread, which I had completely missed! One of the most interesting I've read in the forums.

Thanks for linking to it.

Why are you interested, he really isnt revealing anything. The title suggests fake. Lots of people diagnosed with schizophrenia are fakes. You know they pay money to people with this disease.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

Why are you interested, he really isnt revealing anything. The title suggests fake. Lots of people diagnosed with schizophrenia are fakes. You know they pay money to people with this disease.

This is just ignorant on your part, it is not an easy thing to get disability.

Thanks for promoting some stupid consipracy theory where people fake scizophrenia to get dsiability. It is disgusting that someone would say that given how difficult it is to get disability in the US.

I defy you to come up with anything about the prevalence of fake diagnosis. And not that one study where someone faked admission into the hospital. You should be ashamed of your self, what a way to add to the stigma, now people with a mental illness are fakes .

[MNBrant]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

This is just ignorant on your part, it is not an easy thing to get disability.

Thanks for promoting some stupid consipracy theory where people fake scizophrenia to get dsiability. It is disgusting that someone would say that given how difficult it is to get disability in the US.

I defy you to come up with anything about the prevalence of fake diagnosis. And not that one study where someone faked admission into the hospital. You should be ashamed of your self, what a way to add to the stigma, now people with a mental illness are fakes .

He, I didnt say there was anything wrong with them. Schizophrenia is one avenue to disability, people can say that they want to kill people or jump off of bridges, say it long enough and they get disability. The problem with this guy is that he seems to be fishing for information. He might have some slight hallucinations and is trying to get information to get a better diagnosis. To say that people don't scam disability is just silly. That is not to say that these people can function all that well in society anyway with or without disability. There is something called low functioning people out there.

[Zeuzzz]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

And the evidence of these high levels of endogeous psychoactive neurochemicals in people with schizophrenia?

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/doc/endogen...ytic%20DMT.pdf

Quote:

Soon after the discovery of endogenous DMT in
humans, psychiatric researchers began to report
correlations between increased levels of DMT in
human fluids and schizophrenia [11–15]. It was
suggested that excess DMT biosynthesis may promote psychotic symptoms. This proposal (which
is sometimes known as the ‘‘transmethylation
hypothesis,’’ because it involves methylated
amines) attracted interest in the 1960s and
1970s. In more recent years, the transmethylation
hypothesis has been eclipsed by the dopamine
hypothesis of schizophrenia, wherein psychotic
symptoms are related to excessive activity in certain dopaminergic circuits in the brain. Recent
biochemical and genetic characterization of a
new family of receptors, the trace amine (TA)
receptors, found in mammalian central and
peripheral nervous tissues, has renewed interest
in a potential role for trace amines in psychosis
[16].

[........]

[11] Murray RM, Oon MC, Rodnight R, Birley JL, Smith A.
Increased excretion of dimethyltryptamine and certain
features of psychosis: a possible association. Arch Gen
Psychiat 1979;36:644–9.
[12] Lipinski JF, Mandel LR, Ahn HS, Vanden Heuvel WJ, Walker
RW. Blood dimethyltryptamine concentrations in psychotic
disorders. Biol Psychiat 1974;9:89–91.
[13] Checkley SA, Murray RM, Oon MC, Rodnight R, Birley JL. A
longitudinal study of urinary excretion of N,N-dimethyltryptamine in psychotic patients. Br J Psychiat
1980;137:236–9.
[14] Rodnight R, Murray RM, Oon MC, Brockington IF, Nicholls P,
Birley JL. Urinary dimethyltryptamine and psychiatric
symptomatology and classification. Psychol Med
1976;6:649–57.
[15] Tanimukai H, Ginther R, Spaide J, Bueno JR, Himwich HE.
Detection of psychotomimetic N,N-dimethylated indoleamines in the urine of four schizophrenic patients. Br J
Psychiat 1970;117:421–30.

Some people think it may be more to do with the cannbinoid receptor system.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...91305796004261

Quote:

Abstract
Cognitive impairments during psychotic episodes are assumed to be caused not only by one single putative classical neurotransmitter dysfunction but also by an impaired equilibrium of the interaction between different neurobiological generators of cognitive processes. Herein, the perceptual abnormalities induced by psychotogenic agents play a major role as tools for the understanding of model psychoses. The recently discovered cannabinoid receptor system with its endogenous ligand anandamide can be regarded as an extremely relevant regulator system, a dysfunctionality of which may explain at least one subtype of endogenous psychoses. Neuropsychological results (three-dimensional inversion illusion) in Δ9-tetra-hydrocannabinol-intoxicated normal volunteers exhibit strong similarities with data acquired from patients suffering from productive schizophrenic psychoses, regarding disturbances in internal regulation of perceptual processes. The relevance of this finding to a general cognitive dysfunction concept of schizophrenic psychosis is discussed.

As I said we don't really know which endogenous psychedelics or brain systems are responsible yet, its all theories at this stage.

[money]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

And the evidence of these high levels of endogeous psychoactive neurochemicals in people with schizophrenia?

There's substantial evidence for excess dopamine levels playing a role in schizophrenia.

[Zeuzzz]

Originally Posted by money

There's substantial evidence for excess dopamine levels playing a role in schizophrenia.

To what extent is the dopamine in excess? Citations?

Very easy to come up with theories for all sorts of neurochemicals as they are all likely effected to a different degree in terms of achizophrenia.

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

...I think that some people get more or less valuable information from their voices at times. Its more than just misfiring.

Why do you think it's "more than just misfiring"?

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/doc/endogen...ytic%20DMT.pdf

Um, really, studies from that long ago?

Where is the follow up, seriously Zuezzz.

Quote:

Some people think it may be more to do with the cannbinoid receptor system.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...91305796004261



As I said we don't really know which endogenous psychedelics or brain systems are responsible yet, its all theories at this stage.

That really doesn't say endogenous psychedelic now does it? What is the actual neurochemical that binds at that receptor? And how is it classed as a psychedelic?

You do know that LSD binds to the serotonin receptor, that does not make serotonin an endogenous psychedelic.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by money

There's substantial evidence for excess dopamine levels playing a role in schizophrenia.

That does not make it an endogenous psychedelic. That makes it a neurotransmitter, which it is.

It is more strongly indicated in some forms of depression.

[ExMinister]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

Why are you interested, he really isnt revealing anything. The title suggests fake. Lots of people diagnosed with schizophrenia are fakes. You know they pay money to people with this disease.

There is obviously no way for any of us to know with 100% certainty about anyone posting on an internet forum, but I have kept in touch with Case through PMs for quite some time now about his life and what he has been going through since that thread, and he has my utmost respect. Everyone is left to draw their own conclusions, but he clearly, to me, continues to struggle to cope with a disease process that for him has been nothing but relentless and destructive.

[MNBrant]

Originally Posted by pakeha

Why do you think it's "more than just misfiring"?

Because for me reality can change more or less permanently. Either that means the reality I was living wasnt real in the first place or that reality itself changed. I really cant say more for fear of changing reality again. It tends not to change for the better.

[MNBrant]

One thing is the sibling study at NIMPH that I was supposedly in was a bust. There is not a few genetic markers for schizophrenia there are about 10,000 so basically there is no genetic reason for having schizophrenia though there is. I guess the study is still going on though.

[Zeuzzz]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Um, really, studies from that long ago?

Where is the follow up, seriously Zuezzz.

Not hard to find, heres a review of the literature on endogenous DMT published this year in 2012

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22371425

Quote:

A critical review of reports of endogenous psychedelic N, N-dimethyltryptamines in humans: 1955-2010.
Barker SA, McIlhenny EH, Strassman R.

Abstract

Three indole alkaloids that possess differing degrees of psychotropic/psychedelic activity have been reported as endogenous substances in humans; N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), 5-hydroxy-DMT (bufotenine, HDMT), and 5-methoxy-DMT (MDMT). We have undertaken a critical review of 69 published studies reporting the detection or detection and quantitation of these compounds in human body fluids. In reviewing this literature, we address the methods applied and the criteria used in the determination of the presence of DMT, MDMT, and HDMT. The review provides a historical perspective of the research conducted from 1955 to 2010, summarizing the findings for the individual compounds in blood, urine, and/or cerebrospinal fluid. A critique of the data is offered that addresses the strengths and weaknesses of the methods and approaches to date. The review also discusses the shortcomings of the existing data in light of more recent findings and how these may be overcome. Suggestions for the future directions of endogenous psychedelics research are offered.

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

Not hard to find, heres a review of the literature on endogenous DMT published this year in 2012

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22371425

The review also discusses the shortcomings of the existing data in light of more recent findings and how these may be overcome.

[Zeuzzz]

lol your always determined to argue about something aren't you david

Can you argue with that?

[Dancing David]

That is not true Zeuuzzz, that is not recent research about anything, it is a literature review. You did not address my question, so serotonin receptors are what LSD latches on to, does that make serotonin a hallucinogen?

Yes or no.

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by MNBrant

Because for me reality can change more or less permanently. Either that means the reality I was living wasnt real in the first place or that reality itself changed. I really cant say more for fear of changing reality again. It tends not to change for the better.

Thanks for your insights.
My own reality changes continually and I don't understand how it could be otherwise.

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

lol your always determined to argue about something aren't you david

Can you argue with that?

Originally Posted by Dancing David

That is not true Zeuuzzz,...

Nearly nommable...

[Dancing David]

Originally Posted by EHocking

Nearly nommable...

There are times I even agree with Zeuzzz, infrequent though they may be.

[MNBrant]

Originally Posted by pakeha

Thanks for your insights.
My own reality changes continually and I don't understand how it could be otherwise.

You have seen the guy with nothing behind him but the blue screen on the tv asking what he is supposed to be saying next?