If we ever meet aliens from another planet will we be surprised by what we see? - Page 4

Dinwar · 14th May 2012, 03:46 PM

Quote:

There are lots of species that communicate in frequencies that escape our normal sensing apparatus. Cetaceans, according to some reports, can stun their prey with a blast of sound. This is not a violation of forces we understand, nor is the tricks of electric eels and other fish. On board lighting (bio-luminescence) is common place now...yet, all of this is relatively new to our understanding.

It's all also well within the realm of the known laws of physics and chemistry. It's NOT paranormal--it's merely ABnormal.

Quote:

So, no more surprises?

When I was a kid, I once played chess against my sister in the living room. I did an en passant move, which I considered to be pretty commonplace. My father and uncle, both of whom have played chess for longer than I'd been alive (multiple times longer, in fact), got....well, frankly extremely cheesed off at me. It took me finding references to the move in three different sources, including an encyclopedia and two books on chess, for me to convince them that I wasn't cheating.

The rules of chess are centuries old. This rule certainly wasn't a novel invention--it was older than any two of us put together. Yet it was still such a shock to my relatives that they refused to believe it possible until no reasonable doubt remained (and continued until I demonstrated that their doubt was unreasonable).

That's a relatively simple game. Care to imagine all the fun new things we'll discover when we deal with a system with as many different components as an ecosystem?

Then there's fractals to consider. The math behind nonlinear equations isn't that terribly difficult--it's stuff that any competant math student could figure out. But fractals, chaos, and nonlinear dynamics were a paradigm-shifting discovery, something science is still trying to figure out how to work with.

My point is that just because things have to follow the rules of physics, doesn't mean that there won't be any surprises. We're almost certainly going to discover extremely weird things--but they're also almost certainly not going to reveal any new laws of physics, and certainly won't be psychic phenomena.

CapelDodger · 14th May 2012, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Natural elements/objects exist that are radio receivers. I wonder what it would take for a biological transmitter?

What kind of environment might it evolve in? It would have to be one in which perceiving radio waves would be useful, and I'm not coming up with one off the top of my head. There are more things in the Universe than I can dream up, though.

When it comes to the development of speech in humans, we already had hearing, and production of sounds is powered by an already-existing breathing system. These are very common capabilities across multi-cellular life because they're so useful. What might be the equivalents for radio?

Halfcentaur · 14th May 2012, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Dinwar

When I was a kid, I once played chess against my sister in the living room. I did an en passant move, which I considered to be pretty commonplace.

omg omg omg. My uncle showed me this when I was a child and he was teaching me chess. He said it meant "in passing". I've never met another human being who knew what the heck I was talking about. I've been meaning to Google it for years just to find out if what I remembered really happened.

CapelDodger · 14th May 2012, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

omg omg omg. My uncle showed me this when I was a child and he was teaching me chess. He said it meant "in passing". I've never met another human being who knew what the heck I was talking about. I've been meaning to Google it for years just to find out if what I remembered really happened.

En passant followed a little while after the two-square first pawn move became established, because that could create a passed-pawn too easily.

Dinwar · 14th May 2012, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

omg omg omg. My uncle showed me this when I was a child and he was teaching me chess. He said it meant "in passing". I've never met another human being who knew what the heck I was talking about.

It was in my first chess book, so I'm always surprised at how few people know if it. Makes sense, too--in a shield wall, when the enemy breaks through, you club them in the side of the head as you pass by.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

What kind of environment might it evolve in? It would have to be one in which perceiving radio waves would be useful,

Not necessarily. To be retained, maybe. To be selected for, definitely. But evolution is far more complex than "This trait exists, therefore there's some purpose to it". It's entirely plausible that the aliens view the world in radio waves because, well, that's just how their light-sensitive cells happened to work. It's not a very satisfying answer, but it's entirely sufficient. And if they had a star that emitted more radio waves, or an atmosphere that absorbed fewer, it would be useful. I mean, humans can in a small way detect UV waves: it hurts if we're exposed to too many.

xterra · 14th May 2012, 08:10 PM

Does anyone remember a very old science fiction story (can't remember if it's a book or a novella) called "To Serve Man"?

The aliens eliminate war, disease, crime, etc.

Finally on their gigantic space ship, our protagonist, now a passenger along with a huge number of other Earthlings, learns enough of their writing system to translate their book....

ETA: This responds to the original post, not to the chess discussion.

Marduk · 14th May 2012, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by xterra

Does anyone remember a very old science fiction story (can't remember if it's a book or a novella) called "To Serve Man"?

The aliens eliminate war, disease, crime, etc.

Finally on their gigantic space ship, our protagonist, now a passenger along with a huge number of other Earthlings, learns enough of their writing system to translate their book....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serv...Twilight_Zone)

quarky · 14th May 2012, 08:15 PM

Pawn en passant was a feature of my youth. No one in my family would have ever argued its validity. I used it at four years old, with the coaxing of my dad, who explained that the two-step of that first pawn move was something of an illusory priveldge.
We played some "fairy chess", as he called it, creating the Maharaj like queen, for instance, with the Knight's powers.

I'd expect the queen of the aliens to have the Knight's power as well, but I guess that's silly. My bias would like to encounter something beyond us, by our own reckoning.
That would be more exciting than a novel type of platyhelmenthes or radiolarians, though, admittedly, less likely.

xterra · 14th May 2012, 08:17 PM

Marduk.

Thank you.

Are you old enough to remember the original story (I am) or did you see the episode, or did you just search the Internet?

Inquiring minds....

Marduk · 14th May 2012, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by xterra

Marduk.

Thank you.

Are you old enough to remember the original story (I am) or did you see the episode, or did you just search the Internet?

Inquiring minds....

originally saw it on a twilight zone rerun, it gets mentioned quite a lot at this forum, it and the other famous one.
"There's some....thing....on....the...wing...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightmare_at_20,000_Feet

rjh01 · 15th May 2012, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The radio wave discussion made me think there could be aliens that communicate in wavelengths humans don't hear. Elephants do that, I believe. I wonder why/how our hearing range evolved?

And there would likely be creatures that had different visual light range differences since many exist on Earth.

Natural elements/objects exist that are radio receivers. I wonder what it would take for a biological transmitter? And would language be the radio waves or would something else be broadcast like speech that the animals used closer up?

Do not think anyone has said much on this. Aliens might have an ear that hears at a higher or lower frequency range. Or even a bigger or smaller range. Each frequency has its own issues. For example a low frequency sound wave can travel a long distance, however you need a big ear to hear it. Plus a big mouth to make one. It would also be hard to work out where the sound was coming from.

It is also reasonable for an alien eye to be able to see the ultra violet or infra red. Though if it could see both then it might suffer from blurred vision as it would be unable to focus at all frequencies.

To receive radio waves would probably need some metal like iron. If it is more than centimetre wavelength then you would need something as big as the wavelength to detect the waves.

Correa Neto · 15th May 2012, 04:14 AM

Well, if you people want to go wild on especulation and the stuff sci-fi is made of, a Fred Hoyle's black cloud-type space borne lifeform would take advantages of radio communication. It could harvest metals from asteroids and use them to build organs to emmit and receive radio waves. Just like some critters do with magnetite and silica, not unlike what we do with hydroxylapatite.

BTW, I think when especulating about aliens, unless we are limiting ourselves to non sentient or low-tech beings, technology must not be forgotten. I believe engineering (be it biological or not) is unavoidable (actually a natural evolutionary path), just like building a termite mound is natural for termites. So, yes, I can envisage aliens with telepathy-like (note the word "like") skills. It would be an online species, sharing data through wireless networks. Its not exactly a new concept for sci-fi.

rjh01 · 15th May 2012, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by Correa Neto

Well, if you people want to go wild on especulation and the stuff sci-fi is made of, a Fred Hoyle's black cloud-type space borne lifeform would take advantages of radio communication. It could harvest metals from asteroids and use them to build organs to emmit and receive radio waves. Just like some critters do with magnetite and silica, not unlike what we do with hydroxylapatite.
<snip>

Remember reading that book (or a similar one) as a child. Such a monster would have to be huge. It would also face huge problems, like deadly radiation in space.

Correa Neto · 15th May 2012, 04:46 AM

Pure especulation, ifs and sci-fi follows:

IF it evolved (or was engineered) to live in space, radiation would not be a hazzard. Sure, maybe coming too close to a star would not be a good idea for it, but hey, Earth is not free of dangerous deadly places. IF its a silicon-based lifeform, radiation may not be such a problem. One could even imagine a being that used it as a source of energy, like plants do to sunlight. Or to move around, a giant space sail. Micrometeoroids wou perhaps be the biggest problem. Imagine a huge radial sail-like being. Maybe it could even use it to collect some cosmic dust to eat.

Akhenaten · 15th May 2012, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

To receive radio waves would probably need some metal like iron.

Because, as everyone knows, non-metals such as silicon could never be utilised as radio frequency detectors.

Reivax · 15th May 2012, 05:22 AM

Well considering cells evolved first, I think it's important to speculate how they will evolve or at least how their equivalent will evolve. I think it is pretty much guaranteed that some building block of life will arise which joins together to create organ systems etc. It's interesting to think about how mitochondria was endosymbiotically 'used' by larger organisms to ultimately make cells and allow for us to use energy today and if that has happened or will happen somewhere else on another planet...

Great thread. Interesting discussion.

Dinwar · 15th May 2012, 07:59 AM

Cells actually didn't evolve first. Protocells came before cells, and DNA/RNA came before that. The concept of living vs. nonliving things breaks down past the 3.9 ga mark.

Originally Posted by Correa Neto

So, yes, I can envisage aliens with telepathy-like (note the word "like") skills. It would be an online species, sharing data through wireless networks. Its not exactly a new concept for sci-fi.

Considering I'm sending this via radio waves in Middle-of-Nowhere California, I'd argue it's hardly a new concept for US.

Craig B · 15th May 2012, 08:22 AM

Would space faring aliens not most likely be "descended" from machines originated by a precursor organic species? Self replicated and self improved equivalents of our computers. These alone could be supposed to have the capacity (and patience) to indulge in interstellar travel.

They need not be evolved through natural selection, but at least initially be the products of Intelligent Design by the precursor species. They could be linked to, and communicate through, any imaginable devices, and they could possess any capabilities and attributes that might be proposed as physically achievable.

They might be autonomous in that the precursor species could have become extinct without affecting them at all.

Correa Neto · 15th May 2012, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Dinwar

Considering I'm sending this via radio waves in Middle-of-Nowhere California, I'd argue it's hardly a new concept for US.

(my bolding)
Oh, you Americans, its always all about you, you must always be the first ones... <-that was a joke.

I guess the interfaces we use still have to evolve a lot... They are rather clumsy to use and walk around. But I believe one day we'll be able to share sensations, thoughts, emotions, etc. Wireless.

Reminds me of an old ST:TNG episode, where there was this connected race, the Bynars (yep, they came before the Borg) in times when the www was infant or just a bit above a concept. I belive Twilight Zone may have had a similar concept of interconnected beings, about the same time or earlier.

Skeptic Ginger · 15th May 2012, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Do not think anyone has said much on this. Aliens might have an ear that hears at a higher or lower frequency range. Or even a bigger or smaller range. Each frequency has its own issues. For example a low frequency sound wave can travel a long distance, however you need a big ear to hear it. Plus a big mouth to make one. It would also be hard to work out where the sound was coming from.

It is also reasonable for an alien eye to be able to see the ultra violet or infra red. Though if it could see both then it might suffer from blurred vision as it would be unable to focus at all frequencies.

Those are some interesting points I wouldn't have thought of.

Originally Posted by rjh01

To receive radio waves would probably need some metal like iron. If it is more than centimetre wavelength then you would need something as big as the wavelength to detect the waves.

Crystals make radio receivers and how could one make a radio out of a crystal that is pretty small in those common little science kits if one needed something as big as a radio wavelength. I thought radio was on the very long wavelength end of the spectrum?

Skeptic Ginger · 15th May 2012, 10:56 AM

Thinking of ants, they use smell to communicate and going further with this, pheromones and territory marking scents come to mind.

Skeptic Ginger · 15th May 2012, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by xterra

Does anyone remember a very old science fiction story (can't remember if it's a book or a novella) called "To Serve Man"?....

Yes.

WhatRoughBeast · 15th May 2012, 11:14 AM

And for an alternative take on perspectives of this question, see Terry Bisson's classic short, "Meat" http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-st...TheyMade.shtml

dasmiller · 15th May 2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Crystals make radio receivers and how could one make a radio out of a crystal that is pretty small in those common little science kits if one needed something as big as a radio wavelength. I thought radio was on the very long wavelength end of the spectrum?

Even a crystal radio needs an antenna, though that antenna can be a simple piece of wire. Antenna theory is a complex, messy topic, but a simple whip antenna is typically 1/4 the wavelength of interest. There are tricks you can do to get decent performance from somewhat shorter antennas.

RF covers wavelengths from a fraction of a centimeter to several meters.

Skeptic Ginger · 15th May 2012, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by dasmiller

Even a crystal radio needs an antenna, though that antenna can be a simple piece of wire. Antenna theory is a complex, messy topic, but a simple whip antenna is typically 1/4 the wavelength of interest. There are tricks you can do to get decent performance from somewhat shorter antennas.

RF covers wavelengths from a fraction of a centimeter to several meters.

I'm pretty sure a person's body acts as an antenna. It used to boost reception to put my hand on one of those old rabbit ears antenna.

The point is radio waves can be picked up by a crystal.

I'm contemplating the environment where such a system would evolve, however.

Akhenaten · 15th May 2012, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I'm pretty sure a person's body acts as an antenna.

Or as one plate of a capacitor, which is close enough.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

It used to boost reception to put my hand on one of those old rabbit ears antenna.

Or control a theremin.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The point is radio waves can be picked up by a crystal.

They certainly can.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I'm contemplating the environment where such a system would evolve, however.

Where else . . .

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I AGREE

Merton · 15th May 2012, 02:15 PM

I honestly don't see how it wouldn't be surprising to meet an alien race. It really depends on how this encounter occurs, but I cannot think of an unsurprising scenario. If you mean that Earth is visited by beings who have some mastery of space travel, you're certainly going to be in awe at the technology they've invented and the information they have obtained. Morphologically, it could be just about anything. Giant spacebugs? Amorphous blobs? Humanoids? All would be mind-boggling... but especially the last one.

Even were it a less dramatic scene, say if we voyaged to another planet and found bacteria, those would still be some damned interesting microbes! Do they use DNA for inheritance? Are they carbon-based life forms? What tolerances do they have to temperature, pressure, salinity, etc.? How do they maintain their metabolism? This scenario may not be surprising to those who want to speak to an intelligent species, but it will excite many of us nonetheless.

punshhh · 15th May 2012, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

Would space faring aliens not most likely be "descended" from machines originated by a precursor organic species? Self replicated and self improved equivalents of our computers. These alone could be supposed to have the capacity (and patience) to indulge in interstellar travel.

They need not be evolved through natural selection, but at least initially be the products of Intelligent Design by the precursor species. They could be linked to, and communicate through, any imaginable devices, and they could possess any capabilities and attributes that might be proposed as physically achievable.

They might be autonomous in that the precursor species could have become extinct without affecting them at all.

Yes and further still they may have reached the point of manipulating matter and spacetime. Indeed they might dispense with cumbersome physical matter as we know it and retreat into a realm of thought or mind.

Perhaps such a realm of mind is the greater existence of which our physical universe is a dense or concretized reflection, or primitive version.

Craig B · 15th May 2012, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by punshhh

Yes and further still they may have reached the point of manipulating matter and spacetime. Indeed they might dispense with cumbersome physical matter as we know it and retreat into a realm of thought or mind.

Perhaps such a realm of mind is the greater existence of which our physical universe is a dense or concretized reflection, or primitive version.

That goes beyond anything I might "propose as physically achievable". I don't know how to envisage a realm of mind not associated with a material structure. It's the issue of "mind-brain dependence" which seems to me to militate against the existence of disembodied spirits.

Correa Neto · 15th May 2012, 03:41 PM

Oh, just mumble something like "they write themselves in to the very quantum fabric of space". I bet some people will agree and consider it as insightful and inteligent.

Dinwar · 15th May 2012, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Correa Neto

Oh, just mumble something like "they write themselves in to the very quantum fabric of space". I bet some people will agree and consider it as insightful and inteligent.

"And now we're leaving for no explicable raisin!"

Originally Posted by Merton

Even were it a less dramatic scene, say if we voyaged to another planet and found bacteria, those would still be some damned interesting microbes! Do they use DNA for inheritance? Are they carbon-based life forms? What tolerances do they have to temperature, pressure, salinity, etc.? How do they maintain their metabolism? This scenario may not be surprising to those who want to speak to an intelligent species, but it will excite many of us nonetheless.

Very true. Even finding a fossilized virus on Mars would be the biggest news in science that decade.

rjh01 · 15th May 2012, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Those are some interesting points I wouldn't have thought of.

Crystals make radio receivers and how could one make a radio out of a crystal that is pretty small in those common little science kits if one needed something as big as a radio wavelength. I thought radio was on the very long wavelength end of the spectrum?

Thanks for your comments. If you are interested in the subject here are a few Wikipedia articles to start you off

Radio_waves^WP This is a very brief article

Quote:

Radio waves have frequencies from 300 GHz to as low as 3 Hz, and corresponding wavelengths from 1 millimeter to 100 kilometers.

Antenna (radio)^WP This is a very long article and contains heaps of information. Gets a bit complex at times.

Radio_spectrum^WP Very brief. It has several interesting tables that says what the different radio bands are.

Electromagnetic spectrum^WP. Says what all the different electromagnetic waves are from radio to high energy Gamma rays.

quarky · 15th May 2012, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

Would space faring aliens not most likely be "descended" from machines originated by a precursor organic species? Self replicated and self improved equivalents of our computers. These alone could be supposed to have the capacity (and patience) to indulge in interstellar travel.

They need not be evolved through natural selection, but at least initially be the products of Intelligent Design by the precursor species. They could be linked to, and communicate through, any imaginable devices, and they could possess any capabilities and attributes that might be proposed as physically achievable.

They might be autonomous in that the precursor species could have become extinct without affecting them at all.

Pretty cool point.
I love the intelligent design aspect.
I wonder if the more fundamentalist type thinkers have thought of this angle on I.D.?
Kudos on your thinking.

Craig B · 15th May 2012, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by quarky

Pretty cool point.
I love the intelligent design aspect.
I wonder if the more fundamentalist type thinkers have thought of this angle on I.D.?
Kudos on your thinking.

In a sense, it's been thought of. One of the proponents of ID, William Dembski is quoted by wiki thus

Quote:

He has suggested that the "intelligent designer" was not necessarily synonymous with God: "It could be space aliens. There are many possibilities" but has on several occasions been explicit in labelling the designer the Christian God and linking ID with a Christian revival through which Christianity can be restored to its formerly pre-eminent place in society, supplanting "materialist" science. In his book Intelligent Design; the Bridge Between Science and Theology he states "The conceptual soundings of the [intelligent design] theory can in the end only be located in Christ". On the pro-intelligent design website designinference.com Dembski said that intelligent design enables materialism to be replaced with Christianity.

He has been accused of being "inconsistent", but in fact he's not. When he is confronted by the separation of church and state, he consistently asserts that the Intelligent Designer could, for all he knows, be a non-supernatural entity. So it falls within the realm of scientific hypotheses, and might for example be taught in schools. But when he's appealing to believers, he stresses that ID is strictly and purely Christian. I leave it to you to discern from this what his real opinions are.

Halfcentaur · 15th May 2012, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Correa Neto

Well, if you people want to go wild on especulation and the stuff sci-fi is made of, a Fred Hoyle's black cloud-type space borne lifeform would take advantages of radio communication. It could harvest metals from asteroids and use them to build organs to emmit and receive radio waves. Just like some critters do with magnetite and silica, not unlike what we do with hydroxylapatite.

BTW, I think when especulating about aliens, unless we are limiting ourselves to non sentient or low-tech beings, technology must not be forgotten. I believe engineering (be it biological or not) is unavoidable (actually a natural evolutionary path), just like building a termite mound is natural for termites. So, yes, I can envisage aliens with telepathy-like (note the word "like") skills. It would be an online species, sharing data through wireless networks. Its not exactly a new concept for sci-fi.

In essence texting is technologically enabled telepathy for us. Although we have to use our eyes, we're basically encoding thoughts to each other across the world in instantaneous time, merely having to wiggle our fingers a for a few moments while our inner opinions are received by someone thousands of miles away.

quarky · 16th May 2012, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

In essence texting is technologically enabled telepathy for us. Although we have to use our eyes, we're basically encoding thoughts to each other across the world in instantaneous time, merely having to wiggle our fingers a for a few moments while our inner opinions are received by someone thousands of miles away.

Yes, and the devices required get smaller and smaller.
Eventually, they will be invisible.

Of course, its possible that we are the advanced guard, or at least the scouts...sent forth from the wreckage of our fore-fathers...not exactly Matrix-style, but similar.

I can't recall the specifics of my genetic modification, though I suspect I are one.

Craig B · 16th May 2012, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

In essence texting is technologically enabled telepathy for us. Although we have to use our eyes, we're basically encoding thoughts to each other across the world in instantaneous time, merely having to wiggle our fingers a for a few moments while our inner opinions are received by someone thousands of miles away.

Telepathy? I would call it technologically enabled letter writing. God forbid that my "inner opinions" should be revealed. My outer opinions are bad enough!

punshhh · 16th May 2012, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

Telepathy? I would call it technologically enabled letter writing. God forbid that my "inner opinions" should be revealed. My outer opinions are bad enough!

Yes its very fortunate that our embryonic minds are restricted by having to interact via physical bodies. Without this limiting system all hell would be let loose. We are in a kindergarten.

punshhh · 16th May 2012, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

That goes beyond anything I might "propose as physically achievable". I don't know how to envisage a realm of mind not associated with a material structure. It's the issue of "mind-brain dependence" which seems to me to militate against the existence of disembodied spirits.

If one feels a physical substrate is required, some kind of crystalline chip which could be embedded in a discrete spacetime perhaps.

Personally I consider a subtle material of some kind, even subtle electricity of some kind. Given intelligent design such things may already be embedded in physical material.

Akhenaten · 16th May 2012, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by punshhh

Yes its very fortunate that our embryonic minds are restricted by having to interact via physical bodies. Without this limiting system all hell would be let loose. We are in a kindergarten.

In what way would "all hell be let loose" exactly"

Originally Posted by punshhh

If one feels a physical substrate is required, some kind of crystalline chip which could be embedded in a discrete spacetime perhaps.

You forgot to mention 'quantum'.

Originally Posted by punshhh

Personally I consider a subtle material of some kind, even subtle electricity of some kind. Given intelligent design such things may already be embedded in physical material.

Given?

14th May 2012, 03:46 PM	#121
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,970	Quote: There are lots of species that communicate in frequencies that escape our normal sensing apparatus. Cetaceans, according to some reports, can stun their prey with a blast of sound. This is not a violation of forces we understand, nor is the tricks of electric eels and other fish. On board lighting (bio-luminescence) is common place now...yet, all of this is relatively new to our understanding. It's all also well within the realm of the known laws of physics and chemistry. It's NOT paranormal--it's merely ABnormal. Quote: So, no more surprises? When I was a kid, I once played chess against my sister in the living room. I did an en passant move, which I considered to be pretty commonplace. My father and uncle, both of whom have played chess for longer than I'd been alive (multiple times longer, in fact), got....well, frankly extremely cheesed off at me. It took me finding references to the move in three different sources, including an encyclopedia and two books on chess, for me to convince them that I wasn't cheating. The rules of chess are centuries old. This rule certainly wasn't a novel invention--it was older than any two of us put together. Yet it was still such a shock to my relatives that they refused to believe it possible until no reasonable doubt remained (and continued until I demonstrated that their doubt was unreasonable). That's a relatively simple game. Care to imagine all the fun new things we'll discover when we deal with a system with as many different components as an ecosystem? Then there's fractals to consider. The math behind nonlinear equations isn't that terribly difficult--it's stuff that any competant math student could figure out. But fractals, chaos, and nonlinear dynamics were a paradigm-shifting discovery, something science is still trying to figure out how to work with. My point is that just because things have to follow the rules of physics, doesn't mean that there won't be any surprises. We're almost certainly going to discover extremely weird things--but they're also almost certainly not going to reveal any new laws of physics, and certainly won't be psychic phenomena.
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,970	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

14th May 2012, 04:07 PM	#122
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,744	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Natural elements/objects exist that are radio receivers. I wonder what it would take for a biological transmitter? What kind of environment might it evolve in? It would have to be one in which perceiving radio waves would be useful, and I'm not coming up with one off the top of my head. There are more things in the Universe than I can dream up, though. When it comes to the development of speech in humans, we already had hearing, and production of sounds is powered by an already-existing breathing system. These are very common capabilities across multi-cellular life because they're so useful. What might be the equivalents for radio?
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

14th May 2012, 04:56 PM	#123
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,965	Originally Posted by Dinwar When I was a kid, I once played chess against my sister in the living room. I did an en passant move, which I considered to be pretty commonplace. omg omg omg. My uncle showed me this when I was a child and he was teaching me chess. He said it meant "in passing". I've never met another human being who knew what the heck I was talking about. I've been meaning to Google it for years just to find out if what I remembered really happened.
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,965

14th May 2012, 05:43 PM	#124
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,744	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur omg omg omg. My uncle showed me this when I was a child and he was teaching me chess. He said it meant "in passing". I've never met another human being who knew what the heck I was talking about. I've been meaning to Google it for years just to find out if what I remembered really happened. En passant followed a little while after the two-square first pawn move became established, because that could create a passed-pawn too easily.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

14th May 2012, 07:44 PM	#125
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,970	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur omg omg omg. My uncle showed me this when I was a child and he was teaching me chess. He said it meant "in passing". I've never met another human being who knew what the heck I was talking about. It was in my first chess book, so I'm always surprised at how few people know if it. Makes sense, too--in a shield wall, when the enemy breaks through, you club them in the side of the head as you pass by. Originally Posted by CapelDodger What kind of environment might it evolve in? It would have to be one in which perceiving radio waves would be useful, Not necessarily. To be retained, maybe. To be selected for, definitely. But evolution is far more complex than "This trait exists, therefore there's some purpose to it". It's entirely plausible that the aliens view the world in radio waves because, well, that's just how their light-sensitive cells happened to work. It's not a very satisfying answer, but it's entirely sufficient. And if they had a star that emitted more radio waves, or an atmosphere that absorbed fewer, it would be useful. I mean, humans can in a small way detect UV waves: it hurts if we're exposed to too many.
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14th May 2012, 08:10 PM	#126
xterra Muse Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: On the outskirts of Nowhere; the middle was too crowded Posts: 626	Does anyone remember a very old science fiction story (can't remember if it's a book or a novella) called "To Serve Man"? The aliens eliminate war, disease, crime, etc. Finally on their gigantic space ship, our protagonist, now a passenger along with a huge number of other Earthlings, learns enough of their writing system to translate their book.... ETA: This responds to the original post, not to the chess discussion.
	Last edited by xterra; 14th May 2012 at 08:12 PM.

14th May 2012, 08:12 PM	#127
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by xterra Does anyone remember a very old science fiction story (can't remember if it's a book or a novella) called "To Serve Man"? The aliens eliminate war, disease, crime, etc. Finally on their gigantic space ship, our protagonist, now a passenger along with a huge number of other Earthlings, learns enough of their writing system to translate their book.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serv...Twilight_Zone)

14th May 2012, 08:15 PM	#128
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Pawn en passant was a feature of my youth. No one in my family would have ever argued its validity. I used it at four years old, with the coaxing of my dad, who explained that the two-step of that first pawn move was something of an illusory priveldge. We played some "fairy chess", as he called it, creating the Maharaj like queen, for instance, with the Knight's powers. I'd expect the queen of the aliens to have the Knight's power as well, but I guess that's silly. My bias would like to encounter something beyond us, by our own reckoning. That would be more exciting than a novel type of platyhelmenthes or radiolarians, though, admittedly, less likely.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

14th May 2012, 08:17 PM	#129
xterra Muse Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: On the outskirts of Nowhere; the middle was too crowded Posts: 626	Marduk. Thank you. Are you old enough to remember the original story (I am) or did you see the episode, or did you just search the Internet? Inquiring minds....
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14th May 2012, 08:29 PM	#130
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by xterra Marduk. Thank you. Are you old enough to remember the original story (I am) or did you see the episode, or did you just search the Internet? Inquiring minds.... originally saw it on a twilight zone rerun, it gets mentioned quite a lot at this forum, it and the other famous one. "There's some....thing....on....the...wing...." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightmare_at_20,000_Feet

15th May 2012, 02:09 AM	#131
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,198	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger The radio wave discussion made me think there could be aliens that communicate in wavelengths humans don't hear. Elephants do that, I believe. I wonder why/how our hearing range evolved? And there would likely be creatures that had different visual light range differences since many exist on Earth. Natural elements/objects exist that are radio receivers. I wonder what it would take for a biological transmitter? And would language be the radio waves or would something else be broadcast like speech that the animals used closer up? Do not think anyone has said much on this. Aliens might have an ear that hears at a higher or lower frequency range. Or even a bigger or smaller range. Each frequency has its own issues. For example a low frequency sound wave can travel a long distance, however you need a big ear to hear it. Plus a big mouth to make one. It would also be hard to work out where the sound was coming from. It is also reasonable for an alien eye to be able to see the ultra violet or infra red. Though if it could see both then it might suffer from blurred vision as it would be unable to focus at all frequencies. To receive radio waves would probably need some metal like iron. If it is more than centimetre wavelength then you would need something as big as the wavelength to detect the waves.
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15th May 2012, 04:14 AM	#132
Correa Neto Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hunting rocks somewhere in Brazil Posts: 7,185	Well, if you people want to go wild on especulation and the stuff sci-fi is made of, a Fred Hoyle's black cloud-type space borne lifeform would take advantages of radio communication. It could harvest metals from asteroids and use them to build organs to emmit and receive radio waves. Just like some critters do with magnetite and silica, not unlike what we do with hydroxylapatite. BTW, I think when especulating about aliens, unless we are limiting ourselves to non sentient or low-tech beings, technology must not be forgotten. I believe engineering (be it biological or not) is unavoidable (actually a natural evolutionary path), just like building a termite mound is natural for termites. So, yes, I can envisage aliens with telepathy-like (note the word "like") skills. It would be an online species, sharing data through wireless networks. Its not exactly a new concept for sci-fi.
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15th May 2012, 04:28 AM	#133
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,198	Originally Posted by Correa Neto Well, if you people want to go wild on especulation and the stuff sci-fi is made of, a Fred Hoyle's black cloud-type space borne lifeform would take advantages of radio communication. It could harvest metals from asteroids and use them to build organs to emmit and receive radio waves. Just like some critters do with magnetite and silica, not unlike what we do with hydroxylapatite. <snip> Remember reading that book (or a similar one) as a child. Such a monster would have to be huge. It would also face huge problems, like deadly radiation in space.
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15th May 2012, 04:46 AM	#134
Correa Neto Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hunting rocks somewhere in Brazil Posts: 7,185	Pure especulation, ifs and sci-fi follows: IF it evolved (or was engineered) to live in space, radiation would not be a hazzard. Sure, maybe coming too close to a star would not be a good idea for it, but hey, Earth is not free of dangerous deadly places. IF its a silicon-based lifeform, radiation may not be such a problem. One could even imagine a being that used it as a source of energy, like plants do to sunlight. Or to move around, a giant space sail. Micrometeoroids wou perhaps be the biggest problem. Imagine a huge radial sail-like being. Maybe it could even use it to collect some cosmic dust to eat.
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15th May 2012, 04:54 AM	#135
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Pither Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,682	Originally Posted by rjh01 To receive radio waves would probably need some metal like iron. Because, as everyone knows, non-metals such as silicon could never be utilised as radio frequency detectors.
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15th May 2012, 05:22 AM	#136
Reivax Thinker Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Australia Posts: 194	Well considering cells evolved first, I think it's important to speculate how they will evolve or at least how their equivalent will evolve. I think it is pretty much guaranteed that some building block of life will arise which joins together to create organ systems etc. It's interesting to think about how mitochondria was endosymbiotically 'used' by larger organisms to ultimately make cells and allow for us to use energy today and if that has happened or will happen somewhere else on another planet... Great thread. Interesting discussion.
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15th May 2012, 07:59 AM	#137
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,970	Cells actually didn't evolve first. Protocells came before cells, and DNA/RNA came before that. The concept of living vs. nonliving things breaks down past the 3.9 ga mark. Originally Posted by Correa Neto So, yes, I can envisage aliens with telepathy-like (note the word "like") skills. It would be an online species, sharing data through wireless networks. Its not exactly a new concept for sci-fi. Considering I'm sending this via radio waves in Middle-of-Nowhere California, I'd argue it's hardly a new concept for US.
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15th May 2012, 08:22 AM	#138
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,984	Would space faring aliens not most likely be "descended" from machines originated by a precursor organic species? Self replicated and self improved equivalents of our computers. These alone could be supposed to have the capacity (and patience) to indulge in interstellar travel. They need not be evolved through natural selection, but at least initially be the products of Intelligent Design by the precursor species. They could be linked to, and communicate through, any imaginable devices, and they could possess any capabilities and attributes that might be proposed as physically achievable. They might be autonomous in that the precursor species could have become extinct without affecting them at all.
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15th May 2012, 09:19 AM	#139
Correa Neto Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hunting rocks somewhere in Brazil Posts: 7,185	Originally Posted by Dinwar Considering I'm sending this via radio waves in Middle-of-Nowhere California, I'd argue it's hardly a new concept for US. (my bolding) Oh, you Americans, its always all about you, you must always be the first ones... <-that was a joke. I guess the interfaces we use still have to evolve a lot... They are rather clumsy to use and walk around. But I believe one day we'll be able to share sensations, thoughts, emotions, etc. Wireless. Reminds me of an old ST:TNG episode, where there was this connected race, the Bynars (yep, they came before the Borg) in times when the www was infant or just a bit above a concept. I belive Twilight Zone may have had a similar concept of interconnected beings, about the same time or earlier.
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15th May 2012, 10:54 AM	#140
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,628	Originally Posted by rjh01 Do not think anyone has said much on this. Aliens might have an ear that hears at a higher or lower frequency range. Or even a bigger or smaller range. Each frequency has its own issues. For example a low frequency sound wave can travel a long distance, however you need a big ear to hear it. Plus a big mouth to make one. It would also be hard to work out where the sound was coming from. It is also reasonable for an alien eye to be able to see the ultra violet or infra red. Though if it could see both then it might suffer from blurred vision as it would be unable to focus at all frequencies. Those are some interesting points I wouldn't have thought of. Originally Posted by rjh01 To receive radio waves would probably need some metal like iron. If it is more than centimetre wavelength then you would need something as big as the wavelength to detect the waves. Crystals make radio receivers and how could one make a radio out of a crystal that is pretty small in those common little science kits if one needed something as big as a radio wavelength. I thought radio was on the very long wavelength end of the spectrum?
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15th May 2012, 10:56 AM	#141
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,628	Thinking of ants, they use smell to communicate and going further with this, pheromones and territory marking scents come to mind.
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15th May 2012, 10:58 AM	#142
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,628	Originally Posted by xterra Does anyone remember a very old science fiction story (can't remember if it's a book or a novella) called "To Serve Man"?.... Yes.
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15th May 2012, 11:14 AM	#143
WhatRoughBeast Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 819	And for an alternative take on perspectives of this question, see Terry Bisson's classic short, "Meat" http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-st...TheyMade.shtml
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15th May 2012, 11:28 AM	#144
dasmiller Just the right amount of cowbell Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon Posts: 3,465	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Crystals make radio receivers and how could one make a radio out of a crystal that is pretty small in those common little science kits if one needed something as big as a radio wavelength. I thought radio was on the very long wavelength end of the spectrum? Even a crystal radio needs an antenna, though that antenna can be a simple piece of wire. Antenna theory is a complex, messy topic, but a simple whip antenna is typically 1/4 the wavelength of interest. There are tricks you can do to get decent performance from somewhat shorter antennas. RF covers wavelengths from a fraction of a centimeter to several meters.
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15th May 2012, 01:05 PM	#145
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,628	Originally Posted by dasmiller Even a crystal radio needs an antenna, though that antenna can be a simple piece of wire. Antenna theory is a complex, messy topic, but a simple whip antenna is typically 1/4 the wavelength of interest. There are tricks you can do to get decent performance from somewhat shorter antennas. RF covers wavelengths from a fraction of a centimeter to several meters. I'm pretty sure a person's body acts as an antenna. It used to boost reception to put my hand on one of those old rabbit ears antenna. The point is radio waves can be picked up by a crystal. I'm contemplating the environment where such a system would evolve, however.
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15th May 2012, 02:15 PM	#147
Merton Muse Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Montana, USA Posts: 576	I honestly don't see how it wouldn't be surprising to meet an alien race. It really depends on how this encounter occurs, but I cannot think of an unsurprising scenario. If you mean that Earth is visited by beings who have some mastery of space travel, you're certainly going to be in awe at the technology they've invented and the information they have obtained. Morphologically, it could be just about anything. Giant spacebugs? Amorphous blobs? Humanoids? All would be mind-boggling... but especially the last one. Even were it a less dramatic scene, say if we voyaged to another planet and found bacteria, those would still be some damned interesting microbes! Do they use DNA for inheritance? Are they carbon-based life forms? What tolerances do they have to temperature, pressure, salinity, etc.? How do they maintain their metabolism? This scenario may not be surprising to those who want to speak to an intelligent species, but it will excite many of us nonetheless.

15th May 2012, 02:31 PM	#148
punshhh Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Rural England Posts: 4,165	Originally Posted by Craig B Would space faring aliens not most likely be "descended" from machines originated by a precursor organic species? Self replicated and self improved equivalents of our computers. These alone could be supposed to have the capacity (and patience) to indulge in interstellar travel. They need not be evolved through natural selection, but at least initially be the products of Intelligent Design by the precursor species. They could be linked to, and communicate through, any imaginable devices, and they could possess any capabilities and attributes that might be proposed as physically achievable. They might be autonomous in that the precursor species could have become extinct without affecting them at all. Yes and further still they may have reached the point of manipulating matter and spacetime. Indeed they might dispense with cumbersome physical matter as we know it and retreat into a realm of thought or mind. Perhaps such a realm of mind is the greater existence of which our physical universe is a dense or concretized reflection, or primitive version.

15th May 2012, 02:47 PM	#149
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,984	Originally Posted by punshhh Yes and further still they may have reached the point of manipulating matter and spacetime. Indeed they might dispense with cumbersome physical matter as we know it and retreat into a realm of thought or mind. Perhaps such a realm of mind is the greater existence of which our physical universe is a dense or concretized reflection, or primitive version. That goes beyond anything I might "propose as physically achievable". I don't know how to envisage a realm of mind not associated with a material structure. It's the issue of "mind-brain dependence" which seems to me to militate against the existence of disembodied spirits.
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15th May 2012, 03:41 PM	#150
Correa Neto Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hunting rocks somewhere in Brazil Posts: 7,185	Oh, just mumble something like "they write themselves in to the very quantum fabric of space". I bet some people will agree and consider it as insightful and inteligent.
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15th May 2012, 04:03 PM	#151
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,970	Originally Posted by Correa Neto Oh, just mumble something like "they write themselves in to the very quantum fabric of space". I bet some people will agree and consider it as insightful and inteligent. "And now we're leaving for no explicable raisin!" Originally Posted by Merton Even were it a less dramatic scene, say if we voyaged to another planet and found bacteria, those would still be some damned interesting microbes! Do they use DNA for inheritance? Are they carbon-based life forms? What tolerances do they have to temperature, pressure, salinity, etc.? How do they maintain their metabolism? This scenario may not be surprising to those who want to speak to an intelligent species, but it will excite many of us nonetheless. Very true. Even finding a fossilized virus on Mars would be the biggest news in science that decade.
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15th May 2012, 08:38 PM	#152
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,198	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Those are some interesting points I wouldn't have thought of. Crystals make radio receivers and how could one make a radio out of a crystal that is pretty small in those common little science kits if one needed something as big as a radio wavelength. I thought radio was on the very long wavelength end of the spectrum? Thanks for your comments. If you are interested in the subject here are a few Wikipedia articles to start you off Radio_waves^WP This is a very brief article Quote: Radio waves have frequencies from 300 GHz to as low as 3 Hz, and corresponding wavelengths from 1 millimeter to 100 kilometers. Antenna (radio)^WP This is a very long article and contains heaps of information. Gets a bit complex at times. Radio_spectrum^WP Very brief. It has several interesting tables that says what the different radio bands are. Electromagnetic spectrum^WP. Says what all the different electromagnetic waves are from radio to high energy Gamma rays.
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15th May 2012, 08:44 PM	#153
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Originally Posted by Craig B Would space faring aliens not most likely be "descended" from machines originated by a precursor organic species? Self replicated and self improved equivalents of our computers. These alone could be supposed to have the capacity (and patience) to indulge in interstellar travel. They need not be evolved through natural selection, but at least initially be the products of Intelligent Design by the precursor species. They could be linked to, and communicate through, any imaginable devices, and they could possess any capabilities and attributes that might be proposed as physically achievable. They might be autonomous in that the precursor species could have become extinct without affecting them at all. Pretty cool point. I love the intelligent design aspect. I wonder if the more fundamentalist type thinkers have thought of this angle on I.D.? Kudos on your thinking.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

15th May 2012, 11:04 PM	#154
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,984	Originally Posted by quarky Pretty cool point. I love the intelligent design aspect. I wonder if the more fundamentalist type thinkers have thought of this angle on I.D.? Kudos on your thinking. In a sense, it's been thought of. One of the proponents of ID, William Dembski is quoted by wiki thus Quote: He has suggested that the "intelligent designer" was not necessarily synonymous with God: "It could be space aliens. There are many possibilities" but has on several occasions been explicit in labelling the designer the Christian God and linking ID with a Christian revival through which Christianity can be restored to its formerly pre-eminent place in society, supplanting "materialist" science. In his book Intelligent Design; the Bridge Between Science and Theology he states "The conceptual soundings of the [intelligent design] theory can in the end only be located in Christ". On the pro-intelligent design website designinference.com Dembski said that intelligent design enables materialism to be replaced with Christianity. He has been accused of being "inconsistent", but in fact he's not. When he is confronted by the separation of church and state, he consistently asserts that the Intelligent Designer could, for all he knows, be a non-supernatural entity. So it falls within the realm of scientific hypotheses, and might for example be taught in schools. But when he's appealing to believers, he stresses that ID is strictly and purely Christian. I leave it to you to discern from this what his real opinions are.
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15th May 2012, 11:39 PM	#155
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,965	Originally Posted by Correa Neto Well, if you people want to go wild on especulation and the stuff sci-fi is made of, a Fred Hoyle's black cloud-type space borne lifeform would take advantages of radio communication. It could harvest metals from asteroids and use them to build organs to emmit and receive radio waves. Just like some critters do with magnetite and silica, not unlike what we do with hydroxylapatite. BTW, I think when especulating about aliens, unless we are limiting ourselves to non sentient or low-tech beings, technology must not be forgotten. I believe engineering (be it biological or not) is unavoidable (actually a natural evolutionary path), just like building a termite mound is natural for termites. So, yes, I can envisage aliens with telepathy-like (note the word "like") skills. It would be an online species, sharing data through wireless networks. Its not exactly a new concept for sci-fi. In essence texting is technologically enabled telepathy for us. Although we have to use our eyes, we're basically encoding thoughts to each other across the world in instantaneous time, merely having to wiggle our fingers a for a few moments while our inner opinions are received by someone thousands of miles away.
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16th May 2012, 12:38 AM	#156
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur In essence texting is technologically enabled telepathy for us. Although we have to use our eyes, we're basically encoding thoughts to each other across the world in instantaneous time, merely having to wiggle our fingers a for a few moments while our inner opinions are received by someone thousands of miles away. Yes, and the devices required get smaller and smaller. Eventually, they will be invisible. Of course, its possible that we are the advanced guard, or at least the scouts...sent forth from the wreckage of our fore-fathers...not exactly Matrix-style, but similar. I can't recall the specifics of my genetic modification, though I suspect I are one.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454