Was Romney a high school bully? - Page 8

Tsukasa Buddha · 11th May 2012, 12:36 AM

I'm going to plug the new documentary Bully, since this seems like a proper place for it.

Upchurch · 11th May 2012, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura

Source fail.

Source fail aside (and indeed, it is), did you actually read the "article" you linked, Sword_of_truth? It was pure rationalization. There is ZERO support provided that Romney's attack and humiliation of another student was "school sanctioned". The article just made stuff up.

In other words, it's a breitbart.com piece.

TragicMonkey · 11th May 2012, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Source fail aside (and indeed, it is), did you actually read the "article" you linked, Sword_of_truth? It was pure rationalization. There is ZERO support provided that Romney's attack and humiliation of another student was "school sanctioned". The article just made stuff up.

In other words, it's a breitbart.com piece.

What amuses me the most about it is that even if it were true, it only makes it even worse because instead of being a bully on his own initiative, it would make Romney a thug acting for the approval of those in authority. Does the author even know any Americans? If there's one thing that's truly against American values it's being a bastard in order to prop up authority, delighting in bullying that's sanctioned by those in power. The whole reason we have this country is because we hated that sort of thing!

I am amazed that some people haven't realized that there is simply no way to spin this positively. The only chance to recover face would have been an admission of guilt, error, and apology. When did it become unmanly, unstatesmanlike to admit error? Is grace not a virtue any more?

ponderingturtle · 11th May 2012, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, was the kid really targeted because he was gay? Or was he targeted because his appearance was different and then called a gay pejorative because that's what high-school kids do?

Why does this matter? If I go out and murder a Copt thinking he was a muslim does that make it not a hate crime for some reason?

ponderingturtle · 11th May 2012, 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

The "Attagirl" thing kind of indicates otherwise, though.

Strictly speaking that could be harassing someone for being perceived as effeminate. It is possible to be effeminate and not be gay.

Upchurch · 11th May 2012, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

What amuses me the most about it is that even if it were true, it only makes it even worse because instead of being a bully on his own initiative, it would make Romney a thug acting for the approval of those in authority.

I was having a flash of Romney as Malfoy and the Inquisitorial Squad from The Order Of The Pheonix.

So, good argument there.

ponderingturtle · 11th May 2012, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Er..uh, Paul would let people who can't pay for health care die if someone didn't step up with charity for the person.

Yep, like his 08 campaign manager.

ponderingturtle · 11th May 2012, 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by epepke

No. That's a rather bizarre thing to suggest.

I suppose that I should no longer be surprised at how uninterested "skeptics" are in factual judgments.

Then why on earth does it matter if he was or was not a homosexual, if he was attacked because they thought he was?

ANTPogo · 11th May 2012, 04:18 AM

So, which is it, Sword of Truth? Did this attack never happen in the first place, or was it merely an officially-school-sanctioned effort to enforce the dress code?

Or is this some kind of Schroedinger's Bullying?

iknownothing · 11th May 2012, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

So, which is it, Sword of Truth? Did this attack never happen in the first place, or was it merely an officially-school-sanctioned effort to enforce the dress code?

Or is this some kind of Schroedinger's Bullying?

And why is the latter more acceptable than the former?

stokes234 · 11th May 2012, 05:11 AM

Whole thing kinda vaguely reminds me of Past Mortem by Ben Elton, especially the bit where he said he couldn't remember.

Spindrift · 11th May 2012, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by iknownothing

And why is the latter more acceptable than the former?

Why wouldn't the incident not occurring be better?

ANTPogo · 11th May 2012, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

Why wouldn't the incident not occurring be better?

I think iknownothing means the school-sanctioned attack.

Sword_Of_Truth · 11th May 2012, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

I don't give a damn why he did it. It was bullying. If the administration wanted to discipline Lauber that was their job and not Romney's. I'm sorry but that is a really disgusting piece of apologetics.

The Washington Post

*Used a dead man who can't speak for himself in a cynical political ploy
*Questioned his sexuality (again, without him being able to respond)
*They did so over the objections of his family
*Misrepresented a non-witness as having been there
*Stealth edited their article rather than print a formal correction notice when this was pointed out

Your moral outrage, selective as it is, is not worth taking seriously.

Upchurch · 11th May 2012, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

Your moral outrage, selective as it is, is not worth taking seriously.

Why is your selective moral outrage (and intellectual dishonesty) worth being taken seriously?

ANTPogo · 11th May 2012, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

The Washington Post

*Used a dead man who can't speak for himself in a cynical political ploy
*Questioned his sexuality (again, without him being able to respond)
*They did so over the objections of his family
*Misrepresented a non-witness as having been there
*Stealth edited their article rather than print a formal correction notice when this was pointed out

Your moral outrage, selective as it is, is not worth taking seriously.

Yes, all those things are just as bad as a gang of 17-year-old boys forcibly holding down a classmate and cutting his hair as he cried and screamed for help, and therefore deserving of equal (if not more) outrage.

Truly, your moral compass is unimpeachable.

Bill Thompson · 11th May 2012, 06:53 AM

Why can't Romney just cheat on exams; take and sell street drugs; and lie about being Magna Cum Whatever like good, decent Liberals?

Sword_Of_Truth · 11th May 2012, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Truly, your moral compass is unimpeachable.

I've already said what I think of Romneys morality 50 years after the events in question, only to be told that whatever good he has done doesn't count for various arbitrary reasons.

Mooseman · 11th May 2012, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

The Washington Post

*Used a dead man who can't speak for himself in a cynical political ploy
*Questioned his sexuality (again, without him being able to respond)
*They did so over the objections of his family
*Misrepresented a non-witness as having been there
*Stealth edited their article rather than print a formal correction notice when this was pointed out

Your moral outrage, selective as it is, is not worth taking seriously.

a
Not sure that this would stop me from voting for Mitt it's not good to hear this stuff, but on the other hand knee jerk attempts to spin it away aren't good either.

ANTPogo · 11th May 2012, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

I've already said what I think of Romneys morality 50 years after the events in question, only to be told that whatever good he has done doesn't count for various arbitrary reasons.

Like his contrite attempt to make up for his own anti-gay bullying by fighting and then trying to kill a state commission tasked with helping LGBT youth at risk for bullying and suicide, when he was governor of Massachussetts?

That "good he has done"?

BenBurch · 11th May 2012, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by AdMan

Breitbart?

Seriously?

They will tell any lie to make this go away, because if it does not, it is the election.

pgwenthold · 11th May 2012, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Like his contrite attempt to make up for his own anti-gay bullying by fighting and then trying to kill a state commission tasked with helping LGBT youth at risk for bullying and suicide, when he was governor of Massachussetts?

That "good he has done"?

Yeah, this is the part that gets me.

It would be one thing if he had done something to make up for his past mistakes. OK, it was youthful indiscretion. But since then he has been a champion for equality, and worked to protect others from the harm of bullying.

Now if that were the case, I'd be much more likely to excuse his youthful indiscretions. But aside from the fact that he no longer hunts down the weirdos and assaults them, has he really changed? Has the underlying attitude behind it changed? Does he work to stop others from doing it? Or does he shrug it off?

Oh no, he doesn't chase down the weirdos and chop their hair off. Now he uses more adult approaches of harming others. Real growth, there.

varwoche · 11th May 2012, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth;8275920 (numbers added)

The Washington Post

(1) Used a dead man who can't speak for himself in a cynical political ploy
(2) Questioned his sexuality (again, without him being able to respond)
(3) They did so over the objections of his family
(4) Misrepresented a non-witness as having been there
(5) Stealth edited their article rather than print a formal correction notice when this was pointed out

(1) empty arm waving; it's not the job of a news organization to suppress news because someone is dead
(2) ditto
(3) empty arm waving; it's not the job of a news organization to suppress news because a family member objects
(4) - (5) evidence?

Skeptic Ginger · 11th May 2012, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

This says more about your own biases than it does about Romney.

It's based on looking at more than one fact to draw my conclusion. Romney's privileged snobbery is not exactly hidden in his interactions during the campaign. Can you cite anytime he's done as much for someone besides a rich friend?

Skeptic Ginger · 11th May 2012, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by timhau

That's true. Romney [claims he] doesn't remember it, and millions of Americans weren't actually there.

ftfy

Skeptic Ginger · 11th May 2012, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Strictly speaking that could be harassing someone for being perceived as effeminate. It is possible to be effeminate and not be gay.

While I agree and have pointed out long hair on boys was frequently ridiculed as 'girl hair' in the 60s, both victimized boys involved came out as gay later in their lives. You can't rule out either possibility, IMO.

Bill Thompson · 11th May 2012, 08:03 AM

Whatever he did, if he just admits it, it will go away.

Obama did much worse things in college that he wrote about later. No one makes an issue of it now.

Or is it because he is a Dem and we let Dems get away with anything?

Skeptic Ginger · 11th May 2012, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

So, which is it, Sword of Truth? Did this attack never happen in the first place, or was it merely an officially-school-sanctioned effort to enforce the dress code?

Or is this some kind of Schroedinger's Bullying?

Best analogy nomination.

Skeptic Ginger · 11th May 2012, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

Whatever he did, if he just admits it, it will go away.

Obama did much worse things in college that he wrote about later. No one makes an issue of it now....

What "worse things" are those?

Upchurch · 11th May 2012, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

Whatever he did, if he just admits it, it will go away.

Obama did much worse things in college that he wrote about later. No one makes an issue of it now.

This is mostly true. (I don't know what Obama did that was worse.) "Forgetting" it happened is tripping people's BS detectors and that causes more scrutiny than might otherwise be warranted.

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

Or is it because he is a Dem and we let Dems get away with anything?

No, because we don't. See John Edwards.

timhau · 11th May 2012, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

It is possible to be effeminate and not be gay.

It would actually be interesting to see what the correlation is. Anecdotal stuff: I grew up in a small town, and at my age level in our high school (or gymnasium), there were two guys whom we would have described as effeminate, had we known the word. Both of them have come out as gay.

BTW, as far as I can remember, they weren't bullied because of it; one of the guys was actually popular because he had a great sense of humor, the other one was quieter but respected because he was a good athlete (so yes, he was both effeminate and buff). I don't think anyone ever suspected they actually were gay, because -- honestly -- it never really occurred to us that there could be gays in our little 1980s town. I'm sure it wasn't easy growing up as a gay youngster in that place.

ANTPogo · 11th May 2012, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

This is mostly true. (I don't know what Obama did that was worse.) "Forgetting" it happened is tripping people's BS detectors and that causes more scrutiny than might otherwise be warranted.

Yup. Romney's (and his campaign's) hamfisted responses to this story is what's giving it legs.

BenBurch · 11th May 2012, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Yup. Romney's (and his campaign's) hamfisted responses to this story is what's giving it legs.

If Romney cannot manage the spin on this, how can we trust him to act diplomatically as President?

Unabogie · 11th May 2012, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

What "worse things" are those?

I love how Obama's college years are both shrouded in mystery and examples of outrageous behavior. All at the same time!

Biscuit · 11th May 2012, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

This a a great commentary in the Atlantic. Some funny stuff there mostly noting the people who believe the incident to be kids as usual.

My personal reaction is more akin to this comment:

I don't know what your experience was as a teen but I don't think physically holding someone down and cutting their hair fits the category of usual teenager crap. I grew up in LA and we were really crazy when it came to a lot of things including (though I wasn't involved) some gang fights. Kids used drugs, broke plenty of laws and there were the usual cast of bullies. When my brother was in jr high he was 'pantsed' by some bigger kids. That was a fad for a while.

But there's something about cutting someone's hair that crosses a line IMO. It's maybe not quite as bad as the guy who tortured animals. That kind of behavior crosses a line suggesting borderline personality problems. But it's beyond the usual hitting, kicking, pinching, punching, scratching, or spitting. Cutting someone's hair has a different connotation in my mind.

The column ends withGreat stuff.

At the end of the day I am not going to buy into this story as much as others have. If it is true it is disgusting behavior but there is redemption. I know this to be true.

So long as this keeps the Romney campaign from controlling the story and puts them on the defensive than its a good day for my candidate. Cynical but honest.

AvalonXQ · 11th May 2012, 08:38 AM

This story significantly impairs my willingness to support Romney as a candidate.

I can't stand bullies.

BenBurch · 11th May 2012, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

At the end of the day I am not going to buy into this story as much as others have. If it is true it is disgusting behavior but there is redemption. I know this to be true.

So long as this keeps the Romney campaign from controlling the story and puts them on the defensive than its a good day for my candidate. Cynical but honest.

Is there redemption without acknowledgement and contrition?

ANTPogo · 11th May 2012, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

At the end of the day I am not going to buy into this story as much as others have. If it is true it is disgusting behavior but there is redemption. I know this to be true.

Yes, because the other boys who helped Romney carry out this attack have felt remorse and guilt, and even apologized in later years to their victim.

Romney, not so much. For him, it was Tuesday.

Biscuit · 11th May 2012, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

No, because we don't. See John Edwards.

Hell, see John Kerry!

BenBurch · 11th May 2012, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

Hell, see John Kerry!

Dan Rostenkowski

11th May 2012, 12:36 AM	#281
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 10,034	I'm going to plug the new documentary Bully, since this seems like a proper place for it.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

11th May 2012, 03:55 AM	#283
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,280	Originally Posted by Upchurch Source fail aside (and indeed, it is), did you actually read the "article" you linked, Sword_of_truth? It was pure rationalization. There is ZERO support provided that Romney's attack and humiliation of another student was "school sanctioned". The article just made stuff up. In other words, it's a breitbart.com piece. What amuses me the most about it is that even if it were true, it only makes it even worse because instead of being a bully on his own initiative, it would make Romney a thug acting for the approval of those in authority. Does the author even know any Americans? If there's one thing that's truly against American values it's being a bastard in order to prop up authority, delighting in bullying that's sanctioned by those in power. The whole reason we have this country is because we hated that sort of thing! I am amazed that some people haven't realized that there is simply no way to spin this positively. The only chance to recover face would have been an admission of guilt, error, and apology. When did it become unmanly, unstatesmanlike to admit error? Is grace not a virtue any more?
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

11th May 2012, 04:09 AM	#284
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,547	Originally Posted by Mycroft Playing devil's advocate for a minute, was the kid really targeted because he was gay? Or was he targeted because his appearance was different and then called a gay pejorative because that's what high-school kids do? Why does this matter? If I go out and murder a Copt thinking he was a muslim does that make it not a hate crime for some reason?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

11th May 2012, 04:11 AM	#285
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,547	Originally Posted by ANTPogo The "Attagirl" thing kind of indicates otherwise, though. Strictly speaking that could be harassing someone for being perceived as effeminate. It is possible to be effeminate and not be gay.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

11th May 2012, 04:12 AM	#286
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey What amuses me the most about it is that even if it were true, it only makes it even worse because instead of being a bully on his own initiative, it would make Romney a thug acting for the approval of those in authority. I was having a flash of Romney as Malfoy and the Inquisitorial Squad from The Order Of The Pheonix. So, good argument there.
	Last edited by Upchurch; 11th May 2012 at 04:14 AM.

11th May 2012, 03:48 AM	#282
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura Source fail. Source fail aside (and indeed, it is), did you actually read the "article" you linked, Sword_of_truth? It was pure rationalization. There is ZERO support provided that Romney's attack and humiliation of another student was "school sanctioned". The article just made stuff up. In other words, it's a breitbart.com piece.

11th May 2012, 04:13 AM	#287
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,547	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Er..uh, Paul would let people who can't pay for health care die if someone didn't step up with charity for the person. Yep, like his 08 campaign manager.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

11th May 2012, 04:16 AM	#288
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,547	Originally Posted by epepke No. That's a rather bizarre thing to suggest. I suppose that I should no longer be surprised at how uninterested "skeptics" are in factual judgments. Then why on earth does it matter if he was or was not a homosexual, if he was attacked because they thought he was?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

11th May 2012, 04:18 AM	#289
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,590	So, which is it, Sword of Truth? Did this attack never happen in the first place, or was it merely an officially-school-sanctioned effort to enforce the dress code? Or is this some kind of Schroedinger's Bullying?
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

11th May 2012, 05:07 AM	#290
iknownothing Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,179	Originally Posted by ANTPogo So, which is it, Sword of Truth? Did this attack never happen in the first place, or was it merely an officially-school-sanctioned effort to enforce the dress code? Or is this some kind of Schroedinger's Bullying? And why is the latter more acceptable than the former?

11th May 2012, 05:11 AM	#291
stokes234 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: UK Posts: 2,295	Whole thing kinda vaguely reminds me of Past Mortem by Ben Elton, especially the bit where he said he couldn't remember.
	__________________ "I offer the world my genius. All I ask in return is that the world cover my expenses." Hugo Rune

11th May 2012, 05:13 AM	#292
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,646	Originally Posted by iknownothing And why is the latter more acceptable than the former? Why wouldn't the incident not occurring be better?
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

11th May 2012, 05:22 AM	#293
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,590	Originally Posted by Spindrift Why wouldn't the incident not occurring be better? I think iknownothing means the school-sanctioned attack.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

11th May 2012, 06:40 AM	#294
Sword_Of_Truth Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 11,497	Originally Posted by RandFan I don't give a damn why he did it. It was bullying. If the administration wanted to discipline Lauber that was their job and not Romney's. I'm sorry but that is a really disgusting piece of apologetics. The Washington Post Used a dead man who can't speak for himself in a cynical political ploy Questioned his sexuality (again, without him being able to respond) They did so over the objections of his family Misrepresented a non-witness as having been there *Stealth edited their article rather than print a formal correction notice when this was pointed out Your moral outrage, selective as it is, is not worth taking seriously.

11th May 2012, 06:44 AM	#295
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth Your moral outrage, selective as it is, is not worth taking seriously. Why is your selective moral outrage (and intellectual dishonesty) worth being taken seriously?

11th May 2012, 06:50 AM	#296
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,590	Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth The Washington Post Used a dead man who can't speak for himself in a cynical political ploy Questioned his sexuality (again, without him being able to respond) They did so over the objections of his family Misrepresented a non-witness as having been there Stealth edited their article rather than print a formal correction notice when this was pointed out Your moral outrage, selective as it is, is not worth taking seriously. Yes, all those things are just as bad as a gang of 17-year-old boys forcibly holding down a classmate and cutting his hair as he cried and screamed for help, and therefore deserving of equal (if not more*) outrage. Truly, your moral compass is unimpeachable.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

11th May 2012, 06:53 AM	#297
Bill Thompson Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Redmond, Washington Posts: 6,176	Why can't Romney just cheat on exams; take and sell street drugs; and lie about being Magna Cum Whatever like good, decent Liberals?

11th May 2012, 06:57 AM	#298
Sword_Of_Truth Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 11,497	Originally Posted by ANTPogo Truly, your moral compass is unimpeachable. I've already said what I think of Romneys morality 50 years after the events in question, only to be told that whatever good he has done doesn't count for various arbitrary reasons.

11th May 2012, 07:02 AM	#299
Mooseman Thinker Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 172	Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth The Washington Post Used a dead man who can't speak for himself in a cynical political ploy Questioned his sexuality (again, without him being able to respond) They did so over the objections of his family Misrepresented a non-witness as having been there *Stealth edited their article rather than print a formal correction notice when this was pointed out Your moral outrage, selective as it is, is not worth taking seriously. a Not sure that this would stop me from voting for Mitt it's not good to hear this stuff, but on the other hand knee jerk attempts to spin it away aren't good either.
Mooseman Thinker Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 172

11th May 2012, 07:03 AM	#300
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,590	Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth I've already said what I think of Romneys morality 50 years after the events in question, only to be told that whatever good he has done doesn't count for various arbitrary reasons. Like his contrite attempt to make up for his own anti-gay bullying by fighting and then trying to kill a state commission tasked with helping LGBT youth at risk for bullying and suicide, when he was governor of Massachussetts? That "good he has done"?
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

11th May 2012, 07:20 AM	#301
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,488	Originally Posted by AdMan Breitbart? Seriously? They will tell any lie to make this go away, because if it does not, it is the election.
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11th May 2012, 07:33 AM	#302
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,117	Originally Posted by ANTPogo Like his contrite attempt to make up for his own anti-gay bullying by fighting and then trying to kill a state commission tasked with helping LGBT youth at risk for bullying and suicide, when he was governor of Massachussetts? That "good he has done"? Yeah, this is the part that gets me. It would be one thing if he had done something to make up for his past mistakes. OK, it was youthful indiscretion. But since then he has been a champion for equality, and worked to protect others from the harm of bullying. Now if that were the case, I'd be much more likely to excuse his youthful indiscretions. But aside from the fact that he no longer hunts down the weirdos and assaults them, has he really changed? Has the underlying attitude behind it changed? Does he work to stop others from doing it? Or does he shrug it off? Oh no, he doesn't chase down the weirdos and chop their hair off. Now he uses more adult approaches of harming others. Real growth, there.
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11th May 2012, 07:36 AM	#303
varwoche Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 7,261	Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth;8275920 (numbers added) The Washington Post (1) Used a dead man who can't speak for himself in a cynical political ploy (2) Questioned his sexuality (again, without him being able to respond) (3) They did so over the objections of his family (4) Misrepresented a non-witness as having been there (5) Stealth edited their article rather than print a formal correction notice when this was pointed out (1) empty arm waving; it's not the job of a news organization to suppress news because someone is dead (2) ditto (3) empty arm waving; it's not the job of a news organization to suppress news because a family member objects (4) - (5) evidence?
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11th May 2012, 07:54 AM	#304
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,798	Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth This says more about your own biases than it does about Romney. It's based on looking at more than one fact to draw my conclusion. Romney's privileged snobbery is not exactly hidden in his interactions during the campaign. Can you cite anytime he's done as much for someone besides a rich friend?
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

11th May 2012, 07:57 AM	#305
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,798	Originally Posted by timhau That's true. Romney [claims he] doesn't remember it, and millions of Americans weren't actually there. ftfy
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11th May 2012, 08:01 AM	#306
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,798	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Strictly speaking that could be harassing someone for being perceived as effeminate. It is possible to be effeminate and not be gay. While I agree and have pointed out long hair on boys was frequently ridiculed as 'girl hair' in the 60s, both victimized boys involved came out as gay later in their lives. You can't rule out either possibility, IMO.
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11th May 2012, 08:03 AM	#307
Bill Thompson Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Redmond, Washington Posts: 6,176	Whatever he did, if he just admits it, it will go away. Obama did much worse things in college that he wrote about later. No one makes an issue of it now. Or is it because he is a Dem and we let Dems get away with anything?

11th May 2012, 08:04 AM	#308
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,798	Originally Posted by ANTPogo So, which is it, Sword of Truth? Did this attack never happen in the first place, or was it merely an officially-school-sanctioned effort to enforce the dress code? Or is this some kind of Schroedinger's Bullying? Best analogy nomination.
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11th May 2012, 08:07 AM	#309
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,798	Originally Posted by Bill Thompson Whatever he did, if he just admits it, it will go away. Obama did much worse things in college that he wrote about later. No one makes an issue of it now.... What "worse things" are those?
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

11th May 2012, 08:10 AM	#310
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,472	Originally Posted by Bill Thompson Whatever he did, if he just admits it, it will go away. Obama did much worse things in college that he wrote about later. No one makes an issue of it now. This is mostly true. (I don't know what Obama did that was worse.) "Forgetting" it happened is tripping people's BS detectors and that causes more scrutiny than might otherwise be warranted. Originally Posted by Bill Thompson Or is it because he is a Dem and we let Dems get away with anything? No, because we don't. See John Edwards.

11th May 2012, 08:15 AM	#311
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,755	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle It is possible to be effeminate and not be gay. It would actually be interesting to see what the correlation is. Anecdotal stuff: I grew up in a small town, and at my age level in our high school (or gymnasium), there were two guys whom we would have described as effeminate, had we known the word. Both of them have come out as gay. BTW, as far as I can remember, they weren't bullied because of it; one of the guys was actually popular because he had a great sense of humor, the other one was quieter but respected because he was a good athlete (so yes, he was both effeminate and buff). I don't think anyone ever suspected they actually were gay, because -- honestly -- it never really occurred to us that there could be gays in our little 1980s town. I'm sure it wasn't easy growing up as a gay youngster in that place.
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11th May 2012, 08:20 AM	#312
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,590	Originally Posted by Upchurch This is mostly true. (I don't know what Obama did that was worse.) "Forgetting" it happened is tripping people's BS detectors and that causes more scrutiny than might otherwise be warranted. Yup. Romney's (and his campaign's) hamfisted responses to this story is what's giving it legs.
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11th May 2012, 08:24 AM	#313
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,488	Originally Posted by ANTPogo Yup. Romney's (and his campaign's) hamfisted responses to this story is what's giving it legs. If Romney cannot manage the spin on this, how can we trust him to act diplomatically as President?
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11th May 2012, 08:28 AM	#314
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,915	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger What "worse things" are those? I love how Obama's college years are both shrouded in mystery and examples of outrageous behavior. All at the same time!

11th May 2012, 08:31 AM	#315
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,907	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger This a a great commentary in the Atlantic. Some funny stuff there mostly noting the people who believe the incident to be kids as usual. My personal reaction is more akin to this comment: I don't know what your experience was as a teen but I don't think physically holding someone down and cutting their hair fits the category of usual teenager crap. I grew up in LA and we were really crazy when it came to a lot of things including (though I wasn't involved) some gang fights. Kids used drugs, broke plenty of laws and there were the usual cast of bullies. When my brother was in jr high he was 'pantsed' by some bigger kids. That was a fad for a while. But there's something about cutting someone's hair that crosses a line IMO. It's maybe not quite as bad as the guy who tortured animals. That kind of behavior crosses a line suggesting borderline personality problems. But it's beyond the usual hitting, kicking, pinching, punching, scratching, or spitting. Cutting someone's hair has a different connotation in my mind. The column ends withGreat stuff. At the end of the day I am not going to buy into this story as much as others have. If it is true it is disgusting behavior but there is redemption. I know this to be true. So long as this keeps the Romney campaign from controlling the story and puts them on the defensive than its a good day for my candidate. Cynical but honest.
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,907	__________________ “... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson