Test design input request: does Pink Slime/LFTB affect hamburger texture?

[Skeptic Ginger]

This thread is strictly about test design. Any attempt to drag the debate (see this thread and this thread for the debate and some background respectively) over to this thread, unless it is relative to the test design, will be ridiculed. Please don't make work for the mods reading my requests to move off topic posts. Thanks in advance.

I will be doing a double blinded randomized test of the texture of hamburger with and without the controversial additive, Lean Finely Textured Beef aka Pink Slime. The test will be subject to the limitations of doing this at our Skeptics at the Pub meeting next week.

Test subject numbers will be limited by who is willing and how much hamburger I can afford. We usually have about 30-40 members in attendance.

I'll be buying 3 hamburger samples. Two that match in %fat, one with and one without LFTB. The third sample I'm debating. I can either have a control that doesn't have LFTB, a control that is randomly half of each, or a control that doesn't have LFTB but is a different % of fat.

I'll have to decide based on what I see at the market. I don't know yet what they have. Apparently LFTB was added to make the lower 4% fat hamburger. LFTB is a product that has had the fat melted and centrifuged out. The resulting low fat product can then be added up to about 15% to hamburger to make the burger lower fat.

I'm hoping I can find samples of the same %fat, preferably 7%, that do and don't have LFTB. If not, it'll be tricky to try to rule out other variables.

The staff at the pub are hopefully going to cook the samples. If not I'll have to adjust the methodology. The samples will look as identical as we can make then and be served on paper plates with the identifying code on the back, sample A, B, and C. No one will know which is which and people are not supposed to even look at the back until they've tasted the burger and replied to the questions. But even if people inadvertently see the code, they won't know which is which.

I'm working out randomizing. Everyone can get an A, B and C in random order. Or I can randomize the whole thing with some people getting 3 As and some getting 2 Bs etc.

What do people think? Getting an ABC will test people's comparisons of the samples, different or not. Randomizing the whole thing we'll get a collective report, weird texture or not. The trouble with the latter is we have no measure of people's subjective opinion on texture. OTOH, with samples of 2 without and 1 with, there should be a trend if there is a difference and random results if not.

Re the questions the test subjects will be asked, they need to be short and simple. Rate sample 1,2, &3. After the rating we will match the 1,2 & 3 to A,B & C and then when all the data is collected we'll reveal which is which.

I need to use multiple choice to make the answers consistent but people can add comments if they want.

The questions will depend on whether all the samples are randomized or whether people all get one of each.

I'm interested in texture. Someone else suggested they'd also like to know preference.

I'll stop here and see what people think.

[jasonpatterson]

I'm wondering about the 'control.' What is your purpose in including it? It seems like an unnecessary additional variable in the experiment, particularly if it's one of a differing fat content. A control is a sample/specimen/group to which nothing is done or a variable that is held constant, it's not an additional third choice thrown into the experiment.

Suppose it turns out that people cannot tell the difference between regular and amended beef of the same fat content, what would you expect to see in the results with respect to the third sample? What if they can tell the difference in texture?

Additionally, if you wind up having to blend two meat products, I would be concerned that the blending process itself would affect the texture of the final product, or possibly its appearance. The act of smooshing up the little meat noodles that hamburger normally comes in makes a burger feel different when you eat it. It breaks apart differently, and I'd not be surprised if it cooked differently as well, having had a not insubstantial amount of air removed from the mix.

[Beerina]

Texture would be separate from preference. So, too, would with and without cheese.

I wouldn't call it a "pink slime" test as that could poison the well -- I can conceive the texture is different enough someone might detect it, then decide one is the pink slime one, and therefore gross, while a truly blind description might not fall prey to that. "Here are two different kinds of hamburger," and leave it at that.

[Skeptic Ginger]

double post

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by jasonpatterson

I'm wondering about the 'control.' What is your purpose in including it? It seems like an unnecessary additional variable in the experiment, particularly if it's one of a differing fat content. A control is a sample/specimen/group to which nothing is done or a variable that is held constant, it's not an additional third choice thrown into the experiment.

Suppose it turns out that people cannot tell the difference between regular and amended beef of the same fat content, what would you expect to see in the results with respect to the third sample? What if they can tell the difference in texture?

Additionally, if you wind up having to blend two meat products, I would be concerned that the blending process itself would affect the texture of the final product, or possibly its appearance. The act of smooshing up the little meat noodles that hamburger normally comes in makes a burger feel different when you eat it. It breaks apart differently, and I'd not be surprised if it cooked differently as well, having had a not insubstantial amount of air removed from the mix.

If I just want to know if the texture is noticeably different, I thought that having 2 the same and one different was less subjective than just saying yes or no. If people just perceive a difference how will we know it isn't imagined. If they OTOH correct match the 2 that are the same and the one that is different it seems more reliable.

By adding a different % fat then all three might differ but the LBT stuff should differ qualitatively from the other 2.

Or I can I try for all the same % fat but 3 different brands.

I'm trying to control for other variables.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Beerina

Texture would be separate from preference. So, too, would with and without cheese.

I wouldn't call it a "pink slime" test as that could poison the well -- I can conceive the texture is different enough someone might detect it, then decide one is the pink slime one, and therefore gross, while a truly blind description might not fall prey to that. "Here are two different kinds of hamburger," and leave it at that.

I wasn't intending to but it was announced that way already. Still that should be controlled for by having 3 samples or also if the difference is non-existent, then the outcome measures will indicate that.

I am planning on making the texture question equal to flavor, smell, and moisture so it doesn't stand out what I'm most looking for.

Here's what's already been announced:

Quote:

Can you tell the difference between a hamburger with the controversial beef additive LBT (aka 'pink slime') and not? While the science largely proves that LBT is safe, there is an open question on if there's a difference in taste. Our very own Ginger will be conducting a live double-blind taste test and will reveal the results.

[phunk]

Will all of the beef be from the same source with the only difference being the LFTB?

[Beelzebuddy]

Can you buy pink slime directly, without the hamburger filler? I find myself intrigued by the culinary possibilities of a texture-less meat.

[phunk]

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Can you buy pink slime directly, without the hamburger filler? I find myself intrigued by the culinary possibilities of a texture-less meat.

Just put regular ground beef through the grinder a few more times, and you'll have something similar.

[rustypouch]

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Can you buy pink slime directly, without the hamburger filler? I find myself intrigued by the culinary possibilities of a texture-less meat.

Wouldn't it be like an all-beef hotdog? Texture-wise, at least, as the 'dogs have seasonings added and probably a bit of smoke.

[Beelzebuddy]

Okay, let me rephrase: I'd enjoy taking something that, while being perfectly safe and nutritious, horrifies people at the thought of eating it, and turning it into something so damned delicious it just about shatters their worldview right there.

Reground beef will no doubt be both pinker and slimier than pink slime. But it won't be pink slime.

Originally Posted by rustypouch

Wouldn't it be like an all-beef hotdog? Texture-wise, at least, as the 'dogs have seasonings added and probably a bit of smoke.

All-beef hotdogs generally have a fair bit of texture to them, I've found. Maybe it's the 'whatever we could pressure wash out out of the grinder' dogs that you're thinking of?

[Cainkane1]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

This thread is strictly about test design. Any attempt to drag the debate (see this thread and this thread for the debate and some background respectively) over to this thread, unless it is relative to the test design, will be ridiculed. Please don't make work for the mods reading my requests to move off topic posts. Thanks in advance.

I will be doing a double blinded randomized test of the texture of hamburger with and without the controversial additive, Lean Finely Textured Beef aka Pink Slime. The test will be subject to the limitations of doing this at our Skeptics at the Pub meeting next week.

Test subject numbers will be limited by who is willing and how much hamburger I can afford. We usually have about 30-40 members in attendance.

I'll be buying 3 hamburger samples. Two that match in %fat, one with and one without LFTB. The third sample I'm debating. I can either have a control that doesn't have LFTB, a control that is randomly half of each, or a control that doesn't have LFTB but is a different % of fat.

I'll have to decide based on what I see at the market. I don't know yet what they have. Apparently LFTB was added to make the lower 4% fat hamburger. LFTB is a product that has had the fat melted and centrifuged out. The resulting low fat product can then be added up to about 15% to hamburger to make the burger lower fat.

I'm hoping I can find samples of the same %fat, preferably 7%, that do and don't have LFTB. If not, it'll be tricky to try to rule out other variables.

The staff at the pub are hopefully going to cook the samples. If not I'll have to adjust the methodology. The samples will look as identical as we can make then and be served on paper plates with the identifying code on the back, sample A, B, and C. No one will know which is which and people are not supposed to even look at the back until they've tasted the burger and replied to the questions. But even if people inadvertently see the code, they won't know which is which.

I'm working out randomizing. Everyone can get an A, B and C in random order. Or I can randomize the whole thing with some people getting 3 As and some getting 2 Bs etc.

What do people think? Getting an ABC will test people's comparisons of the samples, different or not. Randomizing the whole thing we'll get a collective report, weird texture or not. The trouble with the latter is we have no measure of people's subjective opinion on texture. OTOH, with samples of 2 without and 1 with, there should be a trend if there is a difference and random results if not.

Re the questions the test subjects will be asked, they need to be short and simple. Rate sample 1,2, &3. After the rating we will match the 1,2 & 3 to A,B & C and then when all the data is collected we'll reveal which is which.

I need to use multiple choice to make the answers consistent but people can add comments if they want.

The questions will depend on whether all the samples are randomized or whether people all get one of each.

I'm interested in texture. Someone else suggested they'd also like to know preference.

I'll stop here and see what people think.

People who go to europe and eat at McDonalds often report how good the burgers there are. Europe does not use pink slime.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by phunk

Will all of the beef be from the same source with the only difference being the LFTB?

With all the stores quitting selling any burger with LBT in it, I've been reduced to one store and different brands. Haggen is the only store left in the area that is stating they have both burger with and without. I was going with Walmart but it turns out the nearest "superstore" is much too far away and the nearby Walmart doesn't carry the same food selection.

It will definitely be different brands. There's no way around that. That's one reason for the third sample.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Can you buy pink slime directly, without the hamburger filler? I find myself intrigued by the culinary possibilities of a texture-less meat.

Can't buy it retail, only wholesale.

Folks are going to have to remember this is not a formal university master's thesis research project here. But I see no reason the test won't be good enough to confirm my hypothesis that LBT significantly changes the texture of hamburger.

Why does "different" texture mean "textureless" to you? Nothing solid is textureless.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by phunk

Just put regular ground beef through the grinder a few more times, and you'll have something similar.

No you will not, and please take the debate to the appropriate thread. Thank you.

[rustypouch]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

No you will not, and please take the debate to the appropriate thread. Thank you.

Why not test this too?

I'd also suggest you only observe the test, because of your clear bias.

[phunk]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

No you will not, and please take the debate to the appropriate thread. Thank you.

It has nothing to do with the debate. He asked about textureless meat, grinding it to a paste will reduce the texture.

[phunk]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

With all the stores quitting selling any burger with LBT in it, I've been reduced to one store and different brands. Haggen is the only store left in the area that is stating they have both burger with and without. I was going with Walmart but it turns out the nearest "superstore" is much too far away and the nearby Walmart doesn't carry the same food selection.

It will definitely be different brands. There's no way around that. That's one reason for the third sample.

It may add to the cost, but how about several brands with and without.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Okay, let me rephrase: I'd enjoy taking something that, while being perfectly safe and nutritious, horrifies people at the thought of eating it, and turning it into something so damned delicious it just about shatters their worldview right there.

This belongs in the other thread.

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Reground beef will no doubt be both pinker and slimier than pink slime. But it won't be pink slime.

THIS THREAD IS ONLY ABOUT METHODOLOGY.

Go away if you have nothing to contribute to the discussion on methodology.

[rustypouch]

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Okay, let me rephrase: I'd enjoy taking something that, while being perfectly safe and nutritious, horrifies people at the thought of eating it, and turning it into something so damned delicious it just about shatters their worldview right there.

Reground beef will no doubt be both pinker and slimier than pink slime. But it won't be pink slime.


All-beef hotdogs generally have a fair bit of texture to them, I've found. Maybe it's the 'whatever we could pressure wash out out of the grinder' dogs that you're thinking of?

I like the idea of expanding peoples' ideas of what can be food.

Maybe it was, but I'm thinking that hot dogs can be firm, but the texture is rather uniform...

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by phunk

It may add to the cost, but how about several brands with and without.

I'd love to but it's not feasible. There is a pub/tavern that will probably be cooking the stuff for us. We can't exactly ask them to shut the kitchen down and spend a couple hours using the grill just for this project.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by phunk

It has nothing to do with the debate. He asked about textureless meat, grinding it to a paste will reduce the texture.

It has not been established that this claim actually creates the LBT in question. It's an unsupported claim saying LBT is nothing more than burger ground up extra times. A discussion about what LBT is belongs in the other thread as does discussing people's reactions to LBT unless it has to do with the methodology.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by rustypouch

Why not test this too?

I'd also suggest you only observe the test, because of your clear bias.

The samples will be blinded to me, I buy them someone else is cooking them.

Why not test what? Regular burger ground up extra times? Who cares? The issue is LBT vs no LBT, not what products resemble LBT.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by rustypouch

Wouldn't it be like an all-beef hotdog? Texture-wise, at least, as the 'dogs have seasonings added and probably a bit of smoke.

LBT is nothing like hot dog ingredients. I think some people are confused about that because some of the processing sounds similar. Actually, the two products, LBT and hot dog components are not similar in texture. The difference is hot dogs are cooked until all the protein breaks down making it soft. LBT is merely heated to melt the fat off and then centrifuged. The solids then make up the LBT. It's not cooked.

[Marcus]

You can't just ask if there is a texture difference, they have to be able to identify the LFTB sample for it to prove anything. So you will have to pick some sort of description which you think will be most likely to result in this identification. You might ask, for example, " Which burger is gristly and mealy compared to the other?". If 35 out of 40 people pick the LFTB, that would make your claim very plausible. You can make the description a whole paragraph if you want to, the important thing is if they can pick the LFTB burger based on texture.

It would also be interesting to know the results of "which burger tastes better?"

I know you won't have time to test everything, but I think an interesting control(unblinded) question would be " Do you think this Pink Slime burger tastes as good as a regular burger?"

In the event that a strong majority of participants are not able to pick out the LFTB sample, I anticipate that you might theorize that the texture difference is subtle enough that many people don't detect it. I suggest that you test yourself a number of times, to determine definitively if you yourself can detect the difference in the samples you will be using.

[phunk]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

It has not been established that this claim actually creates the LBT in question. It's an unsupported claim saying LBT is nothing more than burger ground up extra times. A discussion about what LBT is belongs in the other thread as does discussing people's reactions to LBT unless it has to do with the methodology.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply anything about LFTB. I was literally only responding to his last sentence "I find myself intrigued by the culinary possibilities of a texture-less meat."

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Marcus

You can't just ask if there is a texture difference, they have to be able to identify the LFTB sample for it to prove anything. So you will have to pick some sort of description which you think will be most likely to result in this identification. You might ask, for example, " Which burger is gristly and mealy compared to the other?". If 35 out of 40 people pick the LFTB, that would make your claim very plausible. You can make the description a whole paragraph if you want to, the important thing is if they can pick the LFTB burger based on texture.

It would also be interesting to know the results of "which burger tastes better?"

I know you won't have time to test everything, but I think an interesting control(unblinded) question would be " Do you think this Pink Slime burger tastes as good as a regular burger?"

In the event that a strong majority of participants are not able to pick out the LFTB sample, I anticipate that you might theorize that the texture difference is subtle enough that many people don't detect it. I suggest that you test yourself a number of times, to determine definitively if you yourself can detect the difference in the samples you will be using.

You seem to be forgetting the test is double blinded. When we pass out the burgers no one will know which is which. They'll be randomized within groups of 3. I think I've settled on that being the best design.

The plates will have a 1,2 & 3 ID on the top and a hidden A,B & C on the bottom of the plate. You score burger 1, later we reveal burger 1 was A,B, or C and only later do we reveal A was with, B without and C was the control or maybe it won't be in that order.

OK, help me out here. Write me up a very short question list that can be easily scored and uniformly answered like a multiple choice or true/false question.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Marcus

...

In the event that a strong majority of participants are not able to pick out the LFTB sample, I anticipate that you might theorize that the texture difference is subtle enough that many people don't detect it. I suggest that you test yourself a number of times, to determine definitively if you yourself can detect the difference in the samples you will be using.

The texture I've experienced is not subtle.

I got the burger with LBT just now. The only stuff that had it in any of the local stores seems to be the frozen stuff. I got Moran's frozen 15% fat ground beef patties and confirmed they have LBT (the company that produces the patties is going out of business because of it).

So now I'll have to find frozen burger that looks as awful as these () but doesn't have LBT.

I will continue to look for unfrozen stuff with LBT. There's one company that might have it but they don't have a web page and nothing says one way or the other on the package. If I can't confirm it has LBT but I try some and think it does, I may use it as the control. If the fresh burger I think has LBT because I tasted it is IDed as having the same texture as the frozen patties I know have LBT in them, that would confirm the case, with a fresh no LBT control of course.


What say you forumites?

[Weak Kitten]

Instead of having three burgers why don't you just have two but mix up what combination people might have. Thus you would have some people getting two Bs and some getting two As. It would allow you to filter slightly for whether people respond poorly to the first or second burger regardless of the actual taste.

Unless there are actual differences in how they need to be cooked you should definitely have the cooking be double-blind as well. You wouldn't want people overcooking one or the other because of some sort of personal concern or bias, that would really mess with the texture.

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

You seem to be forgetting the test is double blinded. When we pass out the burgers no one will know which is which. They'll be randomized within groups of 3. I think I've settled on that being the best design.

The plates will have a 1,2 & 3 ID on the top and a hidden A,B & C on the bottom of the plate. You score burger 1, later we reveal burger 1 was A,B, or C and only later do we reveal A was with, B without and C was the control or maybe it won't be in that order.

OK, help me out here. Write me up a very short question list that can be easily scored and uniformly answered like a multiple choice or true/false question.

I was suggesting a second, unblinded test, like the open test of an MDC (asking if they liked the Pink Slime burger better than regular burger) while acknowledging that you may not have time for this.

Here are some questions. Participants should be instructed not to answer any question they don't know the answer to. All multiple choice.

1) Which burger is more gristly and rubbery?(Am I recalling your description correctly?)

2) Which burger do you like better?

3) Which burger contains Lean Finely Textured Beef (pink slime)?

The questions are not redundant because participants may answer 1,2,or 3 of them.

Your primary interest would be in 1) so for you to be proved right they would have to answer this question correctly. Exactly how many is a matter for debate.

One further suggestion, in one of the earlier studies they controlled for possible visual differences, perhaps you could turn the lights down low.

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The texture I've experienced is not subtle.

In that case an overwhelming majority of participants should have no trouble identifying it.

Quote:

I got the burger with LBT just now. The only stuff that had it in any of the local stores seems to be the frozen stuff. I got Moran's frozen 15% fat ground beef patties and confirmed they have LBT (the company that produces the patties is going out of business because of it).

So now I'll have to find frozen burger that looks as awful as these () but doesn't have LBT.

I will continue to look for unfrozen stuff with LBT. There's one company that might have it but they don't have a web page and nothing says one way or the other on the package. If I can't confirm it has LBT but I try some and think it does, I may use it as the control. If the fresh burger I think has LBT because I tasted it is IDed as having the same texture as the frozen patties I know have LBT in them, that would confirm the case, with a fresh no LBT control of course.


What say you forumites?

I know we've discussed this, but the fat level does have to be close, even a few percent makes a big taste difference.

Originally Posted by Weak Kitten

Instead of having three burgers why don't you just have two but mix up what combination people might have. Thus you would have some people getting two Bs and some getting two As. It would allow you to filter slightly for whether people respond poorly to the first or second burger regardless of the actual taste.

Unless there are actual differences in how they need to be cooked you should definitely have the cooking be double-blind as well. You wouldn't want people overcooking one or the other because of some sort of personal concern or bias, that would really mess with the texture.

Good point, we don't want the cooks knowing which is which.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Weak Kitten

Instead of having three burgers why don't you just have two but mix up what combination people might have. Thus you would have some people getting two Bs and some getting two As. It would allow you to filter slightly for whether people respond poorly to the first or second burger regardless of the actual taste.

Unless there are actual differences in how they need to be cooked you should definitely have the cooking be double-blind as well. You wouldn't want people overcooking one or the other because of some sort of personal concern or bias, that would really mess with the texture.

The kitchen staff are tavern employees, not involved in our group except we fill the place up once a month and they like us.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Marcus

I was suggesting a second, unblinded test, like the open test of an MDC (asking if they liked the Pink Slime burger better than regular burger) while acknowledging that you may not have time for this.

Here are some questions. Participants should be instructed not to answer any question they don't know the answer to. All multiple choice.

1) Which burger is more gristly and rubbery?(Am I recalling your description correctly?)

2) Which burger do you like better?

3) Which burger contains Lean Finely Textured Beef (pink slime)?

The questions are not redundant because participants may answer 1,2,or 3 of them.

Your primary interest would be in 1) so for you to be proved right they would have to answer this question correctly. Exactly how many is a matter for debate.

One further suggestion, in one of the earlier studies they controlled for possible visual differences, perhaps you could turn the lights down low.

What's the goal of #3?

I plan on the specimens looking the same. None of the burgers will be pink, they need to be cooked. I'll cook some up as a test batch to make sure the burgers will be as similar looking as possible. The lights are not bright in the tavern.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Marcus

....I know we've discussed this, but the fat level does have to be close, even a few percent makes a big taste difference.

I decided all 3 samples will be the same fat %.

Originally Posted by Marcus

...Good point, we don't want the cooks knowing which is which.

They're not going to care. Like I said, the cook is the tavern's cook unless Case can't get them to do it. I'll change the procedure if they can't do it.

The burgers will not be in their original packaging.

It can't be too complicated though because the cook is not a scientist.

[Dipayan]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

If the fresh burger I think has LBT because I tasted it is IDed as having the same texture as the frozen patties I know have LBT in them, that would confirm the case, with a fresh no LBT control of course.

Hi SG, good to see that your experiment is well on schedule

Could you possibly clarify the quoted text? I am having some parsing difficulty.

[xtifr]

Instead of having a letter on the bottom of each plate, why not assign each burger a unique number, and keep the master list matching numbers to your three categories hidden from everyone but the cooks?

A little more record-keeping will be required, but I think the results will be much more reliable.

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

What's the goal of #3?

Perhaps people are able to detect the stuff, but not in a way that matches the adjectives you use in #1. They may leave #1 blank and answer #3 instead.

[calebprime]

Originally Posted by Dipayan

Hi SG, good to see that your experiment is well on schedule

Could you possibly clarify the quoted text? I am having some parsing difficulty.

Allow me.

If the fresh burger -- (which) I think has LBT, because I tasted it -- is ID'ed as having the same texture as the frozen patties I know have LBT in them, that would confirm the case. (This would include, of course, a fresh no-LBT control.)

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Dipayan

Hi SG, good to see that your experiment is well on schedule

Could you possibly clarify the quoted text? I am having some parsing difficulty.

To rule out the variable of the freezing if I cannot find frozen non-LBT burger and I can only find fresh burger that probably has LBT but there is no confirmation (not on the label and no company website) then the only option I can see is to use the probable LBT fresh against the known LBT free fresh and the known LBT frozen.

I'm open to other suggestions.

And I'm still trying to find frozen patties without LBT.

If anyone has any web pages that list frozen patties without LBT I'd like to see them. (I don't have a Costco membership.)

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by calebprime

Allow me.

If the fresh burger -- (which) I think has LBT, because I tasted it -- is ID'ed as having the same texture as the frozen patties I know have LBT in them, that would confirm the case. (This would include, of course, a fresh no-LBT control.)

Thank you. That is correct. If the naysayers in the discussion thread want to cry foul here then they need to offer a feasible replacement plan.

Or they could do some of the leg work tracking down a frozen non-LBT beef patty brand.

I also have the option of calling the company that makes the brand I think LBT is in and asking them. They might lie that their product doesn't have LBT but they aren't likely to lie that it is in their ground beef.