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Tags Costa Rica incidents , environmental activists , paul watson , protest incidents

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Old 15th May 2012, 01:49 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
Hilarious delusion. He's explained clearly that lying is perfectly acceptable to him, so dupes who believe what he says are fools.
I'm not as much a wordsmith as I'd like. I get killed in Words with Friends.



What I should have said is they'll never tell you they're something they're not. They don't pretend to be anything other than what they are. Everything they do is to protect the whales. Everything. They never pretend otherwise.
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Old 15th May 2012, 01:51 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Is commercial whaling banned in Barrow?

......
Commercial whaling is illegal and subsistence hunting is legal. Your mileage may vary on whether subsistence hunting is a loop hole or not.
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Old 15th May 2012, 01:51 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
So what gives them the right to take action, and place the lives of the Japanese sailors in danger but purposefully ramming their ship? If a Japanese sailor had been crushed to death by the bow of the Steve Irwin...would that have been murder?
Of course it would have been murder. I'd call it involuntary manslaughter.
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Old 15th May 2012, 01:52 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Is commercial whaling banned in Barrow?

Look at the documentation from either side in this fight. Japan isn't even hiding the fact they're commercially whaling. Not with any serious effort at least. You should see the documents they pass off as "research". It's a friggin joke.

JARPA was supposed to last 16 years. And it did. Then what happened? JARPA II of course! They gave themselves permits to do this commercial whaling, in the Southern Ocean sanctuary that each and every country in the International Whaling Commission created. Well, all but one country. Betcha can't figure out who didn't vote for it!

http://www.whaling.jp/english/qa.html

Apparently that's the website if the "Bad Guys" if you will. Read it. It's a friggin joke.
It doesn't matter. In international water, outside of the basic guidelines set by the UN's Law of the Sea, vessels are governed solely by the laws of the nation whose flag they're registered under.

In other words, if Argentina signs an accord banning whaling in the Southern Ocean, that makes it illegal for Argentine vessels to whale there. It does not make it illegal for Peruvian vessels to whale there; only Peru signing the accord can do that.

If Japan makes a law saying that Japanese vessels can take 1,000 whales a year for research purposes, guess what? Yep.

And nobody can legally do anything about it, except lean on Japan to change their laws.

If you feel engaging in criminal activity is a legitimate countermeasure that's your business. But criminals can expect to be treated like criminals, that's all there is to it. Japan is not breaking any laws; calling what they're doing "illegal" is just simply a lie.
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Old 15th May 2012, 01:53 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Commercial whaling is illegal and subsistence hunting is legal. Your mileage may vary on whether subsistence hunting is a loop hole or not.
I don't think the hunters in Barrow are pretending to be "collecting samples for research" though.

I do know there's a difference and I respect what they do.

Japan isn't happy unless they're involved in some sort of slaughter though.
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Old 15th May 2012, 01:55 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
~~~
SSCS has never and will never tell you one thing and do another.
~~~~
That's not what Peter Bethune says about them
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Old 15th May 2012, 01:59 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
That's not what Peter Bethune says about them
I'm not very happy at the way he was treated. As far as I'm concerned Pete Bethune is the definition of a hero.
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Old 15th May 2012, 02:03 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I'm not very happy at the way he was treated. As far as I'm concerned Pete Bethune is the definition of a hero.
Well the Captain has declared him a Suppressive Person, so he's now Fair Game for the Sea Org.
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Old 15th May 2012, 02:05 PM   #89
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I often have fantasies that the Sea Shepherd crew gets taken by real pirates. We then get leaked videos of all the pathetic whiny ass activists on board begging for their lives before the pirates shoot them and dump their worthless carcasses overboard to be recycled by the very ocean they acted like morons to ostensibly "protect."

At the very least these commercial fishing ships should start arming themselves. They have the right to protect their lives and a .50 cal machine gun peppering those eco-freaks would probably go a long way towards doing that.
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Old 15th May 2012, 02:19 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I'm not very happy at the way he was treated. As far as I'm concerned Pete Bethune is the definition of a hero.
I had no idea who he was so I read the wiki article:
Quote:
Bethune disassociated himself from Sea Shepherd by posting an open letter on his Facebook page on 4 October 2010, condemning the organisation and its leader Paul Watson as "dishonest" and "morally bankrupt". According to his letter, he was directed by Paul Watson to sink the Ady Gil deliberately for PR purposes after the collision with the Japanese whaling ship. He insists that the senior members of Sea Shepherd regularly lie and conspire over the serious matters, detailing many cases in his letter.[56][57] Pete Bethune has since founded his own conservation organisation, Earthrace Conservation
These organizations get along about as well as the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea.

Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I don't think the hunters in Barrow are pretending to be "collecting samples for research" though.

I do know there's a difference and I respect what they do.

Japan isn't happy unless they're involved in some sort of slaughter though.
I'm genuinely curious: What do you see as such a huge distinction between what the Inuit do and what the Japanese do? One you respect and the other you abhor. Is it just the guise of "research"?
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Old 15th May 2012, 02:54 PM   #91
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I for one would love to see them go up against the Deadliest Catch guys.

Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Japan isn't happy unless they're involved in some sort of slaughter though.
Wow. How nice to condemn an entire country.
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Old 15th May 2012, 02:56 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I'm not as much a wordsmith as I'd like. I get killed in Words with Friends.



What I should have said is they'll never tell you they're something they're not. They don't pretend to be anything other than what they are. Everything they do is to protect the whales. Everything. They never pretend otherwise.
How foolish can one be? All this lying pirate has to do is say he is protecting whales and all the eco-nuts with no brains write him checks.

He can't legitimately claim to have established any conservation of whales whatsoever. But there are a number of non-terrorist groups that can, like the International Whaling Commission. There are over 200 whale biologists working for the IWC, and there are zero whale biologists working for Sea Shepherd. Violent criminals with no science backing them - wow, that's going to be really effective.

There are a number of societies like the Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society, and they work through promotion of reserves and scientific conservation principles instead of sabotage and self-aggrandizing stunts. This man does not care for whales. He cares only for himself.


The claim about subsistence hunting is pretty hilarious too. Because subsistence is not a "welfare" concept. It means taking for the purpose of both consumption and trade. They can't export because the law prohibits that. But trading whale meat/muktuk etc. for cash, gas, or grass is exactly what they do with it. They sell the baleen on the streets of Fairbanks and elsewhere for cash. I see them most often on the East side on College Road and Old Steese.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:05 PM   #93
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I'd also like to see Sea Shepherd come up with some numbers as far as whales actually saved and so forth. Is there an actual dollars-to-results conservation plan in place, or is it closer to the truth to say that all the concerned fans are unwittingly just paying the fuel tab so this guy can yacht around the world and throw stink bombs at the occasional "whaling" ship/run over the occasional tuna fisherman?

I mean this guy gets his boat and rams a Japanese whaler and it's claimed that this is "doing something"; but what really happened? Did the whaler stop and turn around and say "okay, we quit"?
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:06 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
He can't legitimately claim to have established any conservation of whales whatsoever.
apart from being a founder member of Greenpeace you mean

Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I'm genuinely curious: What do you see as such a huge distinction between what the Inuit do and what the Japanese do? One you respect and the other you abhor. Is it just the guise of "research"?
only two countries still use factory whaling ships, powered harpoons and a legal loophole, neither of them is Inuit, what the Japanese do is actually not for research purposes, they haven't produced any cetology research papers, despite claiming thats what they are doing, whale products always end up on the open market, consider
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7099720.stm

Quote:
Japanese whalers hunt humpbacks
A Japanese whaling fleet has set sail aiming to harpoon humpback whales for the first time in decades.
The fleet is conducting its largest hunt in the South Pacific - it has instructions to kill up to 1,000 whales, including 50 humpbacks.
the reason
Quote:
killing whales allowed marine biologists to study their internal organs
if that were the case, why 50, not 1 ?
why 1000 Minke whales ?
why not 2 ?
dead whales wash up on beaches all the time, every other country in the world carries out research on those carcasses, the only reason the Japanese require fresh ones is because:-
Quote:
Meat from Japan's scientific catch is sold commercially
despite what you may think of Paul Watson, the Japanese are not carrying out research, they are using the pretext of research to carry on whaling, something which every other country on earth (with one other exception)doesn't do because
1. its unnecessary
2. its inhumane

the Japanese only excuse
Quote:
Tokyo argues that whaling is an ancient Japanese tradition
is pretty weak

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Old 15th May 2012, 03:08 PM   #95
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Really, what's the difference between what the Sea Shepherd does and abortion clinic bombers?
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:15 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Really, what's the difference between what the Sea Shepherd does and abortion clinic bombers?
Competence.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:15 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Really, what's the difference between what the Sea Shepherd does and abortion clinic bombers?
If the person agrees with them. Kind of like how supporting the IRA is american but we are so against all international terrorism.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:17 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It doesn't matter. In international water, outside of the basic guidelines set by the UN's Law of the Sea, vessels are governed solely by the laws of the nation whose flag they're registered under.

In other words, if Argentina signs an accord banning whaling in the Southern Ocean, that makes it illegal for Argentine vessels to whale there. It does not make it illegal for Peruvian vessels to whale there; only Peru signing the accord can do that.

If Japan makes a law saying that Japanese vessels can take 1,000 whales a year for research purposes, guess what? Yep.

And nobody can legally do anything about it, except lean on Japan to change their laws.
They can always go to war over disputed resources. That is a traditional activity.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:23 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Heh, this guy singlehanded turned me into a supporter of the whaling business **** with his TV show.
My bold and corrected for you. There is never any good reason to hunt cetaceans.

Edited by Locknar:  Edited, breach of rule 0; name calling is never civil or polite.

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Old 15th May 2012, 03:28 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Really, what's the difference between what the Sea Shepherd does and abortion clinic bombers?
An unbelieveably stupid comparison. Clinics provide an (argueably) useful service and (IMHO) only stupid, bigotted ******** would have an arguement with it. The professional whalers provide no useful service that can be defended by anyone, folks like Inuit have a reasonable claim given their living conditions, traditions and hunting methods.


Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rule 10

Last edited by Loss Leader; 16th May 2012 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:29 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
My bold and corrected for you. There is never any good reason to hunt cetaceans.
Why? They are a resource just like tuna or cows in my opinion.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:30 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
im proud to have donated money to them. I hope they get bigger ships that can sink whale hunter boats.
Do you truly feel this is the kind of cause that's worth killing people for?
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:31 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Primus View Post
He is an interesting case. I am strongly against whale hunting, I think it's abhorrant and serves no useful purpose.

However I always root for the whalers against this guy. I found it hilarious when they sunk his ship.
It just goes to show if you're loony enough, having a good cause in principal isn't enough if you're going to behave like a complete helmet all the time.

Reminds me of PETA a bit as they're another group people despise despite fundamentally being against animal cruelty.
My thoughts exactly. I'm having difficulty soothing the dissonance though. Especially in light of the fact that I've been defending OWS. Still, my defense of OWS is a bit more practical.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:32 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Why? They are a resource just like tuna or cows in my opinion.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:32 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Why? They are a resource just like tuna or cows in my opinion.
It's chicken and cow. Know your South Park.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:36 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Why? They are a resource just like tuna or cows in my opinion.
Thankfully your opinion doesn't count for much. They are intelligent, they show distress for other species and act altruistically.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:36 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
It's chicken and cow. Know your South Park.
Missed that episode. It looks hilarious.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:40 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Missed that episode. It looks hilarious.
OMG! You've got to see it...it's one of the best episodes of South Park ever.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full...1-whale-whores
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:50 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Really, what's the difference between what the Sea Shepherd does and abortion clinic bombers?
Beside the fact that the Sea Shepard is 100% correct in calling bull **** on "research" vessels? That they're 100% correct that "research" is just a label on top of commercial whaling? Besides that they kill far, far more whales than necessary to carry out whatever "research" into stomach contents they're looking at? Besides that every other country in the world studies stomach contents from whales which wash up on shore?

How about operational philosophy, where animal rights activists adhere to a mandate to avoid intentional harm to any human or non-human, in contrast to abortion clinic bombers who operate with the intention to harm and kill as many people as possible?

How about the sheer priority of concerns, that whales have a first-person point of view and suffer in the extreme for being non-consenting "research" participants, whereas fetuses have neither?
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:51 PM   #110
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Why do we pretend this is just about whales? Sea Shepherd is against all commercial fishing and ram vessels that bring in things ranging from prawns, crab and tuna. They only focus on whaling for the TV show because the producers knew it would turn viewers off to see them harassing a guy hauling in lobster. But when the TV cameras aren't there all bets are off.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:52 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
apart from being a founder member of Greenpeace you mean



only two countries still use factory whaling ships, powered harpoons and a legal loophole, neither of them is Inuit, what the Japanese do is actually not for research purposes, they haven't produced any cetology research papers, despite claiming thats what they are doing, whale products always end up on the open market, consider
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7099720.stm

ETA:
Inuit Whale Hunting regulations:
http://www.uark.edu/misc/jcdixon/His...plan_final.pdf

the reason

if that were the case, why 50, not 1 ?
why 1000 Minke whales ?
why not 2 ?
dead whales wash up on beaches all the time, every other country in the world carries out research on those carcasses, the only reason the Japanese require fresh ones is because:-

despite what you may think of Paul Watson, the Japanese are not carrying out research, they are using the pretext of research to carry on whaling, something which every other country on earth (with one other exception)doesn't do because
1. its unnecessary
2. its inhumane

the Japanese only excuse

is pretty weak
From what I understand, the hunting protocol for the Inuit is to go out in traditional seal skin boats and traditional harpoons and tag a Bowhead whale, once the harpoon so much as touches the whale, it is finished off with a motor boat with a powered explosive tipped harpoon. They use a combination of traditional and modern hunting practices.
They, like the Japanese, claim cultural heritage and their catch ends up on the commercial market as Alaskabushpilot mentioned. Its on a much smaller scale than what the Japanese do but I don't see such a major distinction between the two practices.

Last edited by portlandatheist; 15th May 2012 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:56 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I don't see such a major distinction between the two practices.

The Japanese aren't doing it because they have to,
the Japanese kill considerably more for no reason.

Last edited by Marduk; 15th May 2012 at 05:04 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:58 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
My bold and corrected for you. There is never any good reason to hunt cetaceans.
There's never any good reason for one vessel to deliberately ram another in the middle of the ocean, either. Certainly no good reason for a ship to deliberately ram a tuna fishing structure while people are walking on it.
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Old 15th May 2012, 04:01 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Missed that episode. It looks hilarious.
It's a must see IMO.
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Old 15th May 2012, 04:01 PM   #115
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What about seal clubbing? I find that repulsive but I would never support an organization that tries to ram vehicles carrying the pelts of clubbed seals with another truck.
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Old 15th May 2012, 04:02 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
The Japanese aren't doing it because they have to,
The Inuit are perfectly able to patronize supermarkets.
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Old 15th May 2012, 04:09 PM   #117
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Ady Gil

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
There's never any good reason for one vessel to deliberately ram another in the middle of the ocean, either. Certainly no good reason for a ship to deliberately ram a tuna fishing structure while people are walking on it.
IMO, the Japanese vessel that ran into the Ady Gil (discussed upthread) was more probably than not trying to ram it.
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Old 15th May 2012, 04:09 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The Inuit are perfectly able to patronize supermarkets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_diet
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Old 15th May 2012, 04:13 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
What about seal clubbing? I find that repulsive but I would never support an organization that tries to ram vehicles carrying the pelts of clubbed seals with another truck.
Seems a lot of people would argue that there would be a definite reason to ram vehicles if humans were treated in a similar manner to seals, or whales for that matter, would you agree?
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Old 15th May 2012, 04:17 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
IMO, the Japanese vessel that ran into the Ady Gil (discussed upthread) was more probably than not trying to ram it.
And what does that have to do with the Steve Irwin's frequent and deliberate collisions with other vessels and fishing structures, also discussed upthread?
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