Founder of Sea Shepherd Arrested in Germany

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by Marduk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_diet

And? The Inuit are perfectly able to patronize supermarkets. It would not be "traditional" food, but it is available; which is the point: the Inuit don't have to take whales and seals; they just want to, because of "tradition" - the same reason cited by the Japanese.

[Stacko]

Originally Posted by Travis

What about seal clubbing? I find that repulsive but I would never support an organization that tries to ram vehicles carrying the pelts of clubbed seals with another truck.

It'd also horribly inefficient. If you want your quota and preserve pelts, you have to shoot.

Quote:

In the Canadian commercial seal hunt, the majority of the hunters initiate the kill using a firearm. Ninety percent of sealers on the ice floes of the Front (east of Newfoundland), where the majority of the hunt occurs, use firearms.

Clubbing each one to death would be very exhausting if you're not doing it out of tradition.

[halides1]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

And what does that have to do with the Steve Irwin's frequent and deliberate collisions with other vessels and fishing structures, also discussed upthread?

If it is wrong for the Sea Shephards to ram vessels, then it is wrong for the Japanese ship to ram another vessel. They put the lives of the crew of the Ady Gil at risk, IMO.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by halides1

If it is wrong for the Sea Shephards to ram vessels, then it is wrong for the Japanese ship to ram another vessel. They put the lives of the crew of the Ady Gil at risk, IMO.

They absolutely did. It could have been an awful tragedy. Awful tragedies are always a risk when an aggressive vessel rams another vessel that's not actually doing anything wrong.

[NoahFence]

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

I had no idea who he was so I read the wiki article:


These organizations get along about as well as the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea.



I'm genuinely curious: What do you see as such a huge distinction between what the Inuit do and what the Japanese do? One you respect and the other you abhor. Is it just the guise of "research"?

The guise of "research" has a lot to do with it, yes. If the Japanese could somehow convince me that their whaling is in any way akin to what the Inuit do, I may even change my mind.

But seeing as though they enjoy slaughtering (See Taiji) I'm not gonna hold my breath. They are contemptable.

[NoahFence]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

I'd also like to see Sea Shepherd come up with some numbers as far as whales actually saved and so forth. Is there an actual dollars-to-results conservation plan in place, or is it closer to the truth to say that all the concerned fans are unwittingly just paying the fuel tab so this guy can yacht around the world and throw stink bombs at the occasional "whaling" ship/run over the occasional tuna fisherman?

I mean this guy gets his boat and rams a Japanese whaler and it's claimed that this is "doing something"; but what really happened? Did the whaler stop and turn around and say "okay, we quit"?

HA HA HA HA!!!!!!

He's taking our money and fueling a pleasure cruise with our money....


IN THE ANTARCTIC

Okee doke. Hellova spot. Me? I'd have chosen Bermuda but I'm goofy like that.

[NoahFence]

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

Do you truly feel this is the kind of cause that's worth killing people for?

Nobody's ever died.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by NoahFence

They are contemptable.

Wow. I think it's time to take a break from this thread when you slander an entire nation.

[Macgyver1968]

Originally Posted by NoahFence

Nobody's ever died.

Only by pure luck. So far, everyone has "made their saving throws" to use a D&D term. It's only a matter of time before someone rolls snake-eyes and is in the wrong place at the wrong time, and ends up getting killed.
Whether its one of their own crew, or someone else's...eventually their luck will run out.

Here's a partial list of some of the potentially fatal activities the crew of Sea Shepherd has engaged in:

- The intentional ramming of other vessels.

- Attempting to start fires on other vessels using flares.

- Charging through an ice field in a ship that's not rated for ice.

- Launching their zodiac small boats while traveling at top speed.

- Recovering their zodiac small boats while traveling at top speed.

- Charging headlong into a dangerous storm rather than go around it, just to save time.

- Leaving the crew of their zodiac small boats 50 miles from their ship, so they almost die of hypothermia.

If they continue to take such risks...eventually it will come back to bite them in the ass, and they will kill one of their own or someone on another boat.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

And? The Inuit are perfectly able to patronize supermarkets. It would not be "traditional" food, but it is available; which is the point: the Inuit don't have to take whales and seals; they just want to, because of "tradition" - the same reason cited by the Japanese.

I don't see your point here, I don't agree with whaling, period. You asked what the difference was, I told you, if you don't like my answer take it up with them, there's very little point arguing the toss with me

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Kind of like how supporting the IRA is american

Wait, what?

You lost me.

[Macgyver1968]

Originally Posted by Marduk

I don't see your point here, I don't agree with whaling, period. You asked what the difference was, I told you, if you don't like my answer take it up with them, there's very little point arguing the toss with me

I'm confused too...maybe you can explain your position. What makes whales so special? I'm not talking about the one's that are on the endangered species list. I'm talking about species like the Menke whales the Japaneses are hunting...they aren't endangered. Why is it wrong to kill a whale vs. a tuna? or a crab...or a lobster...or a trout...or a salmon?

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Macgyver1968

I'm confused too...maybe you can explain your position. What makes whales so special? I'm not talking about the one's that are on the endangered species list. I'm talking about species like the Menke whales the Japaneses are hunting...they aren't endangered. Why is it wrong to kill a whale vs. a tuna? or a crab...or a lobster...or a trout...or a salmon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

It'd be great in a few years when we can finally communicate with them and the first thing they say is "you murdered my family"

I guess for me, the only reason is that its unnecessary. Its primitive thinking too, kill because we can. not because we need to, I hate primitive thinking, it goes hand in hand with bigotry and organised religion imho
that and Star Trek 4


not really relevant, but a factor to me is that I like dragons, whales originated that mythology, so I'd hate to see the creatures responsible hunted

[Macgyver1968]

Originally Posted by Marduk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

It'd be great in a few years when we can finally communicate with them and the first thing they say is "you murdered my family"

I guess for me, the only reason is that its unnecessary. Its primitive thinking too, kill because we can. not because we need to, I hate primitive thinking, it goes hand in hand with bigotry and organised religion imho
that and Star Trek 4


not really relevant, but a factor to me is that I like dragons, whales originated that mythology, so I'd hate to see the creatures responsible hunted

So...basically it's an emotional response. You like whales, and don't want to see them killed, but you could care less about lesser sea creatures. How is killing a whale for it's meat and blubber any different than killing a cow for its meat and leather?

Please explain why killing this guy is wrong:


but it's perfectly ok to kill this guy:



Or these guys:

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Macgyver1968

So...basically it's an emotional response. You like whales, and don't want to see them killed, but you could care less about lesser sea creatures. How is killing a whale for it's meat and blubber any different than killing a cow for its meat and leather?

none of my post contained an emotional response

I gave you three reasons
1. because they are sentient
2. because its wasteful
3. because our culture is already endebted to them

for the record, I don't eat any seafood, for emotional reasons

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by NoahFence

HA HA HA HA!!!!!!

He's taking our money and fueling a pleasure cruise with our money....


IN THE ANTARCTIC

Okee doke. Hellova spot. Me? I'd have chosen Bermuda but I'm goofy like that.

Yeah, hey - that video where the big Sea Shepherd ship is repeatedly ramming that offshore fishing rig? Not quite the Antarctic. That thing he just got arrested for? The place where that incident happened? Not quite the Antarctic. That incident that got him expelled from Iceland? Not quite the Antarctic. And et cetera.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by Macgyver1968

So...basically it's an emotional response. You like whales, and don't want to see them killed, but you could care less about lesser sea creatures. How is killing a whale for it's meat and blubber any different than killing a cow for its meat and leather?

Please explain why killing this guy is wrong:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/46946106/minkewhale.jpg

but it's perfectly ok to kill this guy:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i4...nksgiving7.jpg

Or these guys:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i4...nksgiving6.jpg

I don't have a concrete opinion on the subject. However, whales have measurable cognitive abilities that cows do not. While it is still somewhat controversial there is strong evidence to favor the proposition that they demonstrate self awareness. They have brain structures that are relatively larger than all other great apes save be it for humans and the brain structures have a complexity second only to humans.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally Posted by Macgyver1968

So...basically it's an emotional response. You like whales, and don't want to see them killed, but you could care less about lesser sea creatures. How is killing a whale for it's meat and blubber any different than killing a cow for its meat and leather?

In my view this is an attempt at foisting the burden of proof on to the other side. It should be your job to demonstrate why it's ethical to kill a whale when there is no economic or scientific need to do so, and while whale populations are far below their pre-whaling level (there's some clever sophistry involved in focusing discussion whether the population is "sustainable", meaning it's not quite on the threshold of extinction, and acting as if this is the optimal level).

Maybe if you thought about it for a while you might be able to figure some differences between harpooning large, intelligent, social mammals with a long lifespan and a dangerously low population in the wild and killing relatively unintelligent crustaceans, say, or humanely killing domesticated mammals from a vast population that would not exist except for human agriculture in a specially designed slaughterhouse. Maybe. I'll let you mull over the two situations for a while and see if you can figure out just one or two ways in which it just might be different.

If they'e going to kill whales (and there's no justification for it, morally, scientifically or economically) they should be killing minkes. They're a relatively dumb, solitary predator. Killing the large, social whales in the wild just for the benefit of the Japanese whaling industry is utterly indefensible.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by Marduk

none of my post contained an emotional response

I gave you three reasons
1. because they are sentient
2. because its wasteful
3. because our culture is already endebted to them

Where is the evidence whales are sentient? And don't cite Sea Shepherd.

[Macgyver1968]

Originally Posted by Marduk

none of my post contained an emotional response

I gave you three reasons
1. because they are sentient
2. because its wasteful
3. because our culture is already endebted to them

for the record, I don't eat any seafood, for emotional reasons

How do you know they are sentient? How was this determined? Do whales exhibit problem solving skills like great apes?

How is it wasteful?...ever part of the whale is used...the meat is eaten...the blubber is used for fuel, the guts are used for animal feed, no part goes to waste.

How are we indebted to whales? Other than being majestic...what have they done for us? Aside from providing food and fuel for generations of people?

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Macgyver1968

How are we indebted to whales? Other than being majestic...what have they done for us? Aside from providing food and fuel for generations of people?

They taught us how to sing.

[Macgyver1968]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

They taught us how to sing.

No...that was Barry Manilow.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Wait, what?

You lost me.

I am just thinking of a good old fashion Boston st Patricks day parade.

See US Representative Peter King

Or this link and link

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by lionking

Where is the evidence whales are sentient?

Originally Posted by Macgyver1968

How do you know they are sentient? How was this determined? Do whales exhibit problem solving skills like great apes?

Please see my post #137.

FWIW: I'm not a Sea Shepherd fan nor do I hold the position that killing whales is per se immoral (I think it is about as defensible/indefensible as killing human babies under the age of 2).

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by RandFan

Please see my post #137.

FWIW: I'm not a Sea Shepherd fan nor do I hold the position that killing whales is per se immoral (I think it is about as defensible/indefensible as killing human babies under the age of 2).

How about dogs?

[lionking]

Originally Posted by RandFan

Please see my post #137.

Cross posted. Happens in a fast moving thread.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Mikemcc

The professional whalers provide no useful service that can be defended by anyone

Sure they do, if you like whale meat and/or blubber.

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

How about dogs?

Dogs don't pass the mirror test and the complexity and relative brain size are small. However, there is at least one scientist who believes that there is empirical evidence using dog urine (dogs rely on smell more than sight).

[Macgyver1968]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

How about dogs?

Good question...while dog may not recognize their own image in a mirror...they do express great amounts of emotion and intelligence. Some cultures have no problem eating dog. Are they evil?

ETA: I missed Rand's posting.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by RandFan

Dogs don't pass the mirror test and the complexity and relative brain size are small. However, there is at least one scientist who believes that there is empirical evidence using dog urine (dogs rely on smell more than sight).

And yet if you point at something dogs understands what you mean, if you point at something a chimp does not care what you are doing. Dogs have much more social intelligence than chimps.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Mikemcc

Thankfully your opinion doesn't count for much. They are intelligent, they show distress for other species and act altruistically.

Oh BS. A sperm whale has a brain to body mass ratio of ~7,300:1. That's like a 200lb person with a half ounce brain.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Dessi

Beside the fact that the Sea Shepard is 100% correct in calling bull **** on "research" vessels?

So what? I'm perfectly fine with them hunting whales for food/oil/blubber.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by WildCat

Oh BS. A sperm whale has a brain to body mass ratio of ~7,300:1. That's like a 200lb person with a half ounce brain.

if intelligence were measured by brain size, shrews with 10% of its body mass in its brain would be masters of the planet

thats like a 200lb person with a 320 oz brain

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

And yet if you point at something dogs understands what you mean, if you point at something a chimp does not care what you are doing. Dogs have much more social intelligence than chimps.

The problem, and this is true for whales also, is that we don't quite know what that means as it relates to self awareness. It's just too easy to generalize from our own experiences. If you have seen the Terry Schivo pictures or videos you know that humans can appear to be aware and express some emotion when the medical and scientific community says that it is just not the case that they are truly aware or feeling complex emotions. The visual cues can be very misleading.

The difference with whales, I would argue, is in that there is greater potential given the relative brain size and perhaps even more important, degree of complexity.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Dessi

Seems a lot of people would argue that there would be a definite reason to ram vehicles if humans were treated in a similar manner to seals, or whales for that matter, would you agree?

Lots of things are different if they involve a fully self aware human as victim.

[Damien Evans]

Originally Posted by Psiload

They lost me when they started going after tuna fishermen.

Tuna? Really?

Tuna overfishing is a serious problem. In addition, longline fishing has been known to also get fish eating birds, including the Wandering Albatross. Longline fishing is estimated to kill 100,000 Albatross of all species every year. There's also the small matter of the Southern Bluefin Tuna being critically endangered


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_bluefin_tuna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longline_fishing

[Dessi]

Originally Posted by lionking

Where is the evidence whales are sentient?

Is it enough that whales have a first-person point of view, and not only react to pain and environmental stimuli but experience it?

[Checkmite]

I don't believe hunting whales is really necessary and I do consider myself averse to the practice in general.

However, I'm also averse to self-righteous blowhards raising money to buy themselves multi-ton ships so they can go out and deliberately play bumper-boats on the high seas in the name of "helping the whales". What if during one of his attacks Captain Dickbeard had knocked a hole in the aft hull of one of those whalers or damaged his own ship in a way that resulted in a couple thousand gallons of diesel being spilled all over the Antarctic Ocean? Our hero, ladies and gents! "Sea Shepherd" indeed.

[Damien Evans]

Originally Posted by NoahFence

Bethune and the Ady Gil weren't even moving. The Shonan Maru 2 changed course to deliberately attempt murder. That can't even be debated for crying out loud.

[Dessi]

Originally Posted by Travis

Originally Posted by Dessi

Seems a lot of people would argue that there would be a definite reason to ram vehicles if humans were treated in a similar manner to seals, or whales for that matter, would you agree?

Lots of things are different if they involve a fully self aware human as victim.

Suppose that we aren't talking about fully self-aware humans, but humans who are at a similar level of awareness as seals and whales, like infants or children?