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Tags Costa Rica incidents , environmental activists , paul watson , protest incidents

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Old 15th May 2012, 06:32 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
Is it enough that whales have a first-person point of view, and not only react to pain and environmental stimuli but experience it?
Dessi...you know I love you...but seriously, how is that different than other animal's pain? Lobsters are dropped into boiling water while they are still alive! Dude...you know that's gotta suck.. How is that different than any other animal that is killed to be eaten? At least whales are dead when they are cooked...unlike crabs, crayfish, and lobsters.
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Old 15th May 2012, 06:36 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
Is it enough that whales have a first-person point of view, and not only react to pain and environmental stimuli but experience it?
What I would be interested to know is if the whales have an emotional component to pain. There are people who suffer a disconnect between pain centers in the brain and the centers for emotion. Similar to Capgras Syndrome this results in the individual being able to experience pain but not suffer severely for it. Often it is no more than a sensation. But, if that were the determining factor I would have to err on the side of the whale having an emotional component.
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Old 15th May 2012, 06:38 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Heh, this guy singlehanded turned me into a supporter of the whaling business with his TV show.
x2
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Old 15th May 2012, 06:38 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Dessi...you know I love you...but seriously, how is that different than other animal's pain? Lobsters are dropped into boiling water while they are still alive! Dude...you know that's gotta suck.. How is that different than any other animal that is killed to be eaten? At least whales are dead when they are cooked...unlike crabs, crayfish, and lobsters.
how many times is someone going to answer your posts with "sentience" before you look it up ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentien..._and_sentience

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Old 15th May 2012, 06:40 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Dessi...you know I love you...but seriously, how is that different than other animal's pain? Lobsters are dropped into boiling water while they are still alive! Dude...you know that's gotta suck.. How is that different than any other animal that is killed to be eaten? At least whales are dead when they are cooked...unlike crabs, crayfish, and lobsters.
Temple Grandin makes the case that lower form animals lack the necessary neurological equipment to appreciate pain (see nervous system complexity). I agree with her. FWIW: Temple modernized many of the slaughtering facilities for cows so as to reduce stress ans suffering (cows have the neurological equipment to suffer from pain and stress).
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Old 15th May 2012, 06:43 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
The problem, and this is true for whales also, is that we don't quite know what that means as it relates to self awareness. It's just too easy to generalize from our own experiences. If you have seen the Terry Schivo pictures or videos you know that humans can appear to be aware and express some emotion when the medical and scientific community says that it is just not the case that they are truly aware or feeling complex emotions. The visual cues can be very misleading.

The difference with whales, I would argue, is in that there is greater potential given the relative brain size and perhaps even more important, degree of complexity.
And how many of the whales that are hunted are in species that have been tested to meet this criteria?
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Old 15th May 2012, 06:44 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And how many of the whales that are hunted are in species that have been tested to meet this criteria?
I don't know. Sorry.
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Old 15th May 2012, 06:50 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
how many times is someone going to answer your posts with "sentience" before you look it up ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentien..._and_sentience
Dude...I know what sentience is. But I don't see it in the behavior of Minke or Pilot whales... Which is the main species being hunted by the Japanese in the Antarctic, and the villagers in the Faeroe Islands.

Species like the Blue whale, the Sperm Whale, and the Humpback whale should be protected because their numbers are few, and they take a long time to reproduce. But species of whale that are plentiful and not endangered should be game for cultures that depend on their bounty.
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Old 15th May 2012, 06:54 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
But species of whale that are plentiful and not endangered should be game for cultures that depend on their bounty.
do the Japanese depend on their bounty ?

thats kind of admitting that theyre not hunting for research purposes isn't it

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Old 15th May 2012, 06:59 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Dude...I know what sentience is. But I don't see it in the behavior of Minke or Pilot whales... Which is the main species being hunted by the Japanese in the Antarctic, and the villagers in the Faeroe Islands.

Species like the Blue whale, the Sperm Whale, and the Humpback whale should be protected because their numbers are few, and they take a long time to reproduce. But species of whale that are plentiful and not endangered should be game for cultures that depend on their bounty.

Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
do the Japanese depend on their bounty ?
thats kind of admitting that theyre not hunting for research purposes isn't it
I kinda think that Japan ought to follow international law. JMO. But I'm guessing that no one really buys into the notion that this is for research. I think it has to do with a market for whale and people wanting money. Last I looked the Japanese were not suffering a famine.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:18 PM   #171
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If you all had tasted whale meat, you would all cheer the whalers on.

Mmm, whale meat.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:25 PM   #172
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I'm still wondering why it's ok to kill one animal because it has lesser intelligence than another? If a whale is in fact more intelligent than a cow...does a whale feel more pain when it is slaughtered?

What about a lobster that's dropped in a pot of boiling water? Is the lobster's pain less significant than a whales? Who determines which animals are ok to kill...and which animals are not?
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:28 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Dessi...you know I love you...but seriously, how is that different than other animal's pain?
I don't think there's a credible distinction between any animals pain and another's, whether those animals belong to my species or another. I generally believe that that purposefully harming animals should be permitted only in the areas where it would be acceptable to inflict the same amount of harm on mentally similar humans.

Quote:
Lobsters are dropped into boiling water while they are still alive! Dude...you know that's gotta suck.. How is that different than any other animal that is killed to be eaten? At least whales are dead when they are cooked...unlike crabs, crayfish, and lobsters.
I don't know what the scientific consensus is on lobster mental life, but I'm happy being a vegan for the rest of my life anyway
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:30 PM   #174
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It took me a couple of years to go through sixty pounds of whale meat. It is VERY strong, and you definitely know this thing came from the ocean. Bowhead.

Thus far not one of these shrill emotional defenders has been able to demonstrate any verifiable achievement by their superhero in actual conservation. It is pretty clear to me that he's doing what they want - not conservation, but just attacking people they hate.

They hate whalers, so anyone killing a whaler is their hero. I'm glad this thread has given them the opportunity to showcase their base, malicious character.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:30 PM   #175
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My experiences with whale oil have been pretty stupid. Did you know they put it on the bearings of Phoropters? Like "is it better here, or here?" needs some heavy duty lubricant for plastic bearings.

I wouldn't mind eating a whale, but I mean the market for oil is at least partially artificial.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:34 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
I wouldn't mind eating a whale, but I mean the market for oil is at least partially artificial.
If you're ever in Norway, I'll treat you. It tastes a lot like beef, just much more tender.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:35 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
I don't think there's a credible distinction between any animals pain and another's, whether those animals belong to my species or another. I generally believe that that purposefully harming animals should be permitted only in the areas where it would be acceptable to inflict the same amount of harm on mentally similar humans.


I don't know what the scientific consensus is on lobster mental life, but I'm happy being a vegan for the rest of my life anyway
Well...Dessi..would you agree that slitting your throat and letting you bleed to death would be less painful than plunging you in boiling water why you are still alive?

Boiling alive is a really suck ass way to go...but lobsters, crab and crayfish suffer this fate everyday. Why aren't Sea Shepherd trying to stop this atrocity?
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:36 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
I'm still wondering why it's ok to kill one animal because it has lesser intelligence than another? If a whale is in fact more intelligent than a cow...does a whale feel more pain when it is slaughtered?
I don't know that it is okay for one and not the other. I understand the arguments though. I don't mean to argue via link (I'm not a proponent anyway) but if you are sincerly interested see Practical Ethics. It's explained in 4 paragraphs.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:42 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
I don't know that it is okay for one and not the other. I understand the arguments though. I don't mean to argue via link (I'm not a proponent anyway) but if you are sincerly interested see Practical Ethics. It's explained in 4 paragraphs.
The point I'm trying to make Rand, is that all animals feel pain when they are killed. Whales feel pain...Cows feel pain...Goats feel pain...Sheep feel pain. Pain is universal to almost all species. For Sea Shepherd to claim that the pain of whales is somehow greater and more significant...and their death is more significant...does not sit well with me.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:43 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Well...Dessi..would you agree that slitting your throat and letting you bleed to death would be less painful than plunging you in boiling water why you are still alive?

Boiling alive is a really suck ass way to go...but lobsters, crab and crayfish suffer this fate everyday. Why aren't Sea Shepherd trying to stop this atrocity?
I guess I'm on your ignore list. I responded to this. I'm not an advocate of the Sea Shepherd but there is scientific evidence to explain the difference.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:45 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
The point I'm trying to make Rand, is that all animals feel pain when they are killed. Whales feel pain...Cows feel pain...Goats feel pain...Sheep feel pain. Pain is universal to almost all species. For Sea Shepherd to claim that the pain of whales is somehow greater and more significant...does not sit well with me.
1.) Not all animals experience pain the same (that's a scientific fact). 2.) Not all animals are self aware. So, IMO, there is a substantive difference based on empirical evidence. Repeating the same argument over and over isn't advancing the discussion.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:47 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Well...Dessi..would you agree that slitting your throat and letting you bleed to death would be less painful than plunging you in boiling water why you are still alive?

Boiling alive is a really suck ass way to go...but lobsters, crab and crayfish suffer this fate everyday. Why aren't Sea Shepherd trying to stop this atrocity?
I don't think crustaceans have the necessary equipment to feel pain.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:48 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
I'm still wondering why it's ok to kill one animal because it has lesser intelligence than another? If a whale is in fact more intelligent than a cow...does a whale feel more pain when it is slaughtered?

What about a lobster that's dropped in a pot of boiling water? Is the lobster's pain less significant than a whales? Who determines which animals are ok to kill...and which animals are not?
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:49 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I mean this guy gets his boat and rams a Japanese whaler and it's claimed that this is "doing something"; but what really happened? Did the whaler stop and turn around and say "okay, we quit"?
Didn't they? I seem to recall their 'research' ended early last year.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:50 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Furcifer View Post
Didn't they? I seem to recall their 'research' ended early last year.
They're just sightseeing boats now, but the whales keep comin' right at 'em!
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:50 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
1.) Not all animals experience pain the same (that's a scientific fact).
From the link I posted earlier.

Originally Posted by Temple Grandin
Animals are not things, but there is probably a point where legally protecting an organism from pain and fear should cease. From my knowledge of neuroscience, I can be reasonably sure that oysters, flu viruses and bacteria do not need legal protection to prevent people from being cruel by inflicting pain and fear. Advocating for the rights of oysters is something I think is silly.


The key is, does the animal have sufficient nervous system complexity to experience pain and fear and actually suffer? Simple reflexes are not reliable indications of suffering. Removing the cortex of the brain leaves reflexes intact and the decerebrate animal will not feel pain (Woolf, 1983). To suffer, the animal must have sufficient associative circuits in the brain to process pain or fear. This is discussed in a review by Grandin (2002).
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:51 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
1.) Not all animals experience pain the same (that's a scientific fact). 2.) Not all animals are self aware. So, IMO, there is a substantive difference based on empirical evidence. Repeating the same argument over and over isn't advancing the discussion.
How do self-aware animals experience pain that is different from non-self aware animals? Does being self-aware (which is in contention with Minke and Pilot whales) differ from being non-self aware?

Pain is pain...when something bites into your ass...it *********** hurts. and you run away.

Whether you can recognize you image in a mirror or not makes no difference.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:51 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Well...Dessi..would you agree that slitting your throat and letting you bleed to death would be less painful than plunging you in boiling water why you are still alive?

Boiling alive is a really suck ass way to go...but lobsters, crab and crayfish suffer this fate everyday. Why aren't Sea Shepherd trying to stop this atrocity?
This is a pretty stupid argument if you think about it.

Something has to be The Worst Thing In The World. For every issue other than that single one, someone can raise the stupid argument "Why do you care? You should be caring about The Worst Thing In The World! Ha ha, you are a hypocrite and I just caught you!".

The answer is simply that there are lots of bad things in the world, we can't all be working to fix all of them, and fixing the second-worst thing should not wait on fixing the first-worst thing. Trying to fix any problem is laudable, and you don't lose credit just because there is some other problem you could be fixing.

On the bright side, you've obviously solved the problems of AIDS, Middle East unrest the common cold because you have time to post here. That's good news at least. I'm glad the only problem left in the world for you to solve is someone being wrong right on the internet.
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:55 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
This is a pretty stupid argument if you think about it.

Something has to be The Worst Thing In The World. For every issue other than that single one, someone can raise the stupid argument "Why do you care? You should be caring about The Worst Thing In The World! Ha ha, you are a hypocrite and I just caught you!".

The answer is simply that there are lots of bad things in the world, we can't all be working to fix all of them, and fixing the second-worst thing should not wait on fixing the first-worst thing. Trying to fix any problem is laudable, and you don't lose credit just because there is some other problem you could be fixing.

On the bright side, you've obviously solved the problems of AIDS, Middle East unrest the common cold because you have time to post here. That's good news at least. I'm glad the only problem left in the world for you to solve is someone being wrong right on the internet.
I have no idea what you just said...what the **** does AIDS and the middle east have anything do with the justification of killing whales?
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Old 15th May 2012, 07:57 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
NoahFence++

I usually end up giving a few hundred dollars to Sea Shepard Society every year. I think, especially for what they're doing, direct action really helps, and it brings the issue of whale hunting into the mainstream, and puts huge amount of international pressure on nations which permit research commercial whaling.

I doubt it provides a net benefit to the anti-whaling argument.

I would venture to guess that Watson's idiotic antics have garnered the WHALERS a lot of sympathy and support from people who would've otherwise been neutral or even anti-whaling. Looking through the reactions in this thread provides a pretty good snapshot of this.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:01 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by mikedenk View Post
I doubt it provides a net benefit to the anti-whaling argument.

I would venture to guess that Watson's idiotic antics have garnered the WHALERS a lot of sympathy and support from people who would've otherwise been neutral or even anti-whaling. Looking through the reactions in this thread provides a pretty good snapshot of this.
If you believe that, I have a whole lot of "I was an Obama supporter but this has forced me to vote Republican!" to sell you.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:05 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
If you believe that, I have a whole lot of "I was an Obama supporter but this has forced me to vote Republican!" to sell you.
I'm sorry, but your responses make no sense. Please clarify.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:12 PM   #193
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Well...I have to go to bed...the simple fact is Paul Watson is a *********** liar and deserves to spend a watery death under the ocean.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:14 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
I'm sorry, but your responses make no sense. Please clarify.

He is just pointing out all the filthy liars in this thread, like these people from the first page:

Originally Posted by Primus View Post
He is an interesting case. I am strongly against whale hunting, I think it's abhorrant and serves no useful purpose.
However I always root for the whalers against this guy.
Originally Posted by Locknar View Post
That pretty much sums up how I feel re this.
Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Heh, this guy singlehanded turned me into a supporter of the whaling business with his TV show.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:18 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I don't think the hunters in Barrow are pretending to be "collecting samples for research" though.

I do know there's a difference and I respect what they do.

Japan isn't happy unless they're involved in some sort of slaughter though
Yeah, them Nips just ain't happy 'less they're killin' something. The Yellow Peril approaches.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:20 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
How do self-aware animals experience pain that is different from non-self aware animals? Does being self-aware (which is in contention with Minke and Pilot whales) differ from being non-self aware?
Self awareness is a benchmark we use for humans (see Terry Schivo).

Quote:
Pain is pain...when something bites into your ass...it *********** hurts. and you run away.
You poke at an ant and it scurries around. That fact doesn't mean that it comprehends your finger or that it comprehends fear. Frogs don't have an image of a fly in their brain when they seize a fly with their tongue. You have the same ability to react to things you can't consciously see. Also we know that there is an emotional component to pain that makes pain worse for those who have the ability to experience the emotional component than those who do not have the component. For those people pain is largely just another sensation. Lower form animals don't respond to pain based on an emotional component.
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I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.

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Old 15th May 2012, 08:21 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by mikedenk View Post
He is just pointing out all the filthy liars in this thread, like these people from the first page:
Am I a filthy liar? Please, by all means demonstrate where I have lied.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:23 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
Suppose that we aren't talking about fully self-aware humans, but humans who are at a similar level of awareness as seals and whales, like infants or children?
Euthanasia.

What? There's a horrible food shortage in Ireland I read about!



To get back to what we were talking about, if there were an operation where feeble minded humans were being clubbed to death (for reasons I can't put together but that is not the point) I sure wouldn't try to combat it with vehicle bump and run. And I sure as heck wouldn't let a commercial TV operation tag along while I put into practice what I would do about it.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:23 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Self awareness is a benchmark we use for humans (see Terry Schivo).

You poke at an ant and it scurries around. That fact doesn't mean that it comprehends your finger or that it comprehends fear. Frogs don't have an image of a fly in their brain when they seize a fly with their tongue. You have the same ability to react to things you can't consciously see. Also we know that their emotional component to pain that makes pain worse for those who have the ability to experience the emotional component than those who do not have the component. For those people pain is largely just another sensation. Lower form animals don't rely on the emotional component to respond to the pain.
Please explain how the pain of dieing for a whale is different from the pain of dieing for a cow..or a goat or any other animal. How is the death of a whale more tragic than the death of any other creature?
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:27 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Please explain how the pain of dieing for a whale is different from the pain of dieing for a cow..or a goat or any other animal.
Hold on, I've explained how it is different for lower form animals. Stimulation isn't comprehended or experienced the same. It's just a sensation. We have humans that we can talk to who lack an emotional component for pain and they explain pain as simply a sensation. Further, for other lower form animals the pain isn't part of a conscious experience, they cannot "feel" pain anymore than a computer can. You are anthropomorphizing, you are also engaging in a hasty generalization.

Can you acknowledge that much?
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I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.

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