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Tags Costa Rica incidents , environmental activists , paul watson , protest incidents

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Old 15th May 2012, 08:31 PM   #201
Macgyver1968
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No...Pain is pain...just because you recognize your image in a mirror doesn't mean you feel anything different from other creatures that don't. If something tears you apart....the pain is the same...whether you are sentient or not.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:33 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
No...Pain is pain...just because you recognize your image in a mirror doesn't mean you feel anything different from other creatures that don't. If something tears you apart....the pain is the same...whether you are sentient or not.
Are you being obtuse? You are arguing by assertion and that's a fallacy. You are not making an argument based on empirical facts. I am.

Ad hominem deleted. Sorry.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:38 PM   #203
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BTW: I eat meat and I'm against the sea shepherd. I don't claim that whales should not be hunted. I've no dog in the fight. I'm just trying to tell you what the science is. Refusing to acknowledge science and empirical facts is just bad form.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:38 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
I am. I'm just curious, are you a creationist or a 9/11 truther?
Aww...dude..that's a low blow...I am an atheist and firm believer that 19 terrorists caused the destruction at the trade centers.

Is your argument so weak, you have to accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist?
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:42 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Aww...dude..that's a low blow...I am an atheist and firm believer that 19 terrorists caused the destruction at the trade centers.

Is your argument so weak, you have to accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist?
I deleted it. It was wrong and I apologize. It's just that I rarely get someone so intransigent and refusing to accept facts unless they are a creationist or truther.

Look, I don't care what you think. I really don't. It's very frustrating when someone simply argues by assertion and refuses to acknowledge the science though. Stating over and over that "pain is pain" when cognitive neuroscientists have demonstrated empirically that it is wrong is just bad form.

Quote:
Is your argument so weak...
My argument is not weak. Again with the argument by assertion.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:55 PM   #206
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Guys, if we were all to agree that hunting any kind of whale is 100% wrong, Paul Watson is still an aged, barnacle-encrusted scrote. If you support him, you support old testicles. That's just the bottom line.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:55 PM   #207
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FRankly, it is not about being wrong/moral/sentience, it is about whaling being legal. It is legal. PERIOD.

What does sea Shepherd is ilelgal and dangerous.

You want to decide it is right ? Fine. But as said upthread, a lot of people sees legal activity as wrong which others sees as right. Who is then to judge which activity can be "vigilanted" upon and is really wrong , and which are right and should not be "vigilanted" upon ? You don't see where this lead ? Again, some might see letting , say, atheist live in the neighborhood as wrong and an affront to god. Or some might see meat eating as morally wrong and act upon ramming truck trasnporting meat. That is why vigilantism is terrible.

Change the rules of law if you wish. Thru legal means. If you choose an illegal means and vigilantism, I hope you get reamed as it should be.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:55 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
No...Pain is pain...just because you recognize your image in a mirror doesn't mean you feel anything different from other creatures that don't. If something tears you apart....the pain is the same...whether you are sentient or not.
ok try this
go find a bull and hold a knife to its testicles,
now do the same to a human
see the difference, for most animals pain causes a motor response, it makes them move away from the thing causing the pain, when the pain stops, so does the distress
for the sentient, its emotional torture as well, knowing that you'll die, knowing that you won't see your loved ones again, knowing that you won't be around to watch your children grow, knowing that someone is deliberately doing that to you, thats the difference

but we're way off topic here, which if I'm not mistaken is how much of a Dick Paul Watson is

Last edited by Marduk; 15th May 2012 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:56 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
They're just sightseeing boats now, but the whales keep comin' right at 'em!
So the harpoons are just for defense, makes perfect sense.

I don't have a problem with whaling per se, but the I think the Japanese quota includes protected species. That doesn't seem right. The fact that other countries protect the whales for the benefit of those that don't kind of irks me. Especially in this industry where the capacity to hunt them seems much greater than the supply. If every country did research like the Japanese there wouldn't be much to research in a decade.
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Old 15th May 2012, 08:59 PM   #210
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Go **** yourself for associating me the truther vermin. I have nothing else to say to you. Just because I believe something different than you doesn't make a nutjob.
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Old 15th May 2012, 09:01 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Go **** yourself for associating me the truther vermin. I have nothing else to say to you. Just because I believe something different than you doesn't make a nutjob.
Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
So...basically it's an emotional response.
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Old 15th May 2012, 09:05 PM   #212
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**** this ****. I'm outta here.
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Old 15th May 2012, 09:14 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Go **** yourself for associating me the truther vermin. I have nothing else to say to you. Just because I believe something different than you doesn't make a nutjob.
Jeez. I deleted it and apologized. Wow. Whatever dude. I think you doth protest a bit too much.
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Old 15th May 2012, 09:17 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
**** this ****. I'm outta here.
wait come back, I need to tell you about sentience
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Old 15th May 2012, 09:31 PM   #215
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Your terrorist hero is in jail where he belongs. As with all thugs, the measure of success is not positive achievement in conservation, but how much harm you can do to those you hate.

Following the example of your hero, you're really pleased with yourself for being enough of an a**hole to get someone angry. You don't see how obvious you are in conservation not even being relevant to you. The important thing is hurting someone else.

See how I "won?" I got him angry.
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Old 15th May 2012, 09:35 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
Your terrorist hero is in jail where he belongs. As with all thugs, the measure of success is not positive achievement in conservation, but how much harm you can do to those you hate.

Following the example of your hero, you're really pleased with yourself for being enough of an a**hole to get someone angry. You don't see how obvious you are in conservation not even being relevant to you. The important thing is hurting someone else.

See how I "won?" I got him angry.
I'm glad Watson is in jail. He was never a hero of mine. I don't support their cause.

As for Macgyver1968, ignoring an argument and repeating the same silly assertion in spite of facts isn't a a friendly form of argument. The difference is that I had the decency to apologize. All he could do was post epithets and skulk off.

Keep your guilt trip.
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Old 15th May 2012, 09:55 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
I'm glad Watson is in jail. He was never a hero of mine. I don't support their cause.

As for Macgyver1968, ignoring an argument and arguing repeating the same silly assertion in spite of facts isn't a a friendly form of argument. The difference is that I had the decency to apologize. All he could do was post epithets and skulk off.

Keep your guilt trip.
Hey RandFan. Not speaking to you.

But since you have my attention, let me say that you have seemed a very level headed and fair fellow wherever I have seen you, including here.

Kudos especially for apologizing, and deleting your own ad-hom. As far as I am concerened you gained even more respect than I already had for you.

Take care.
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Old 15th May 2012, 09:56 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
Hey RandFan. Not speaking to you.

But since you have my attention, let me say that you have seemed a very level headed and fair fellow wherever I have seen you, including here.

Kudos especially for apologizing, and deleting your own ad-hom. As far as I am concerened you gained even more respect than I already had for you.

Take care.
Fair enough. Thanks.
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Old 15th May 2012, 10:00 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Fair enough. Thanks.
You're welcome. I admire people that have integrity.
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Old 15th May 2012, 10:16 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
Hey RandFan. Not speaking to you.
.
who were you speaking to ?
Macgyver1968 clearly was only angry at Randfan

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Old 15th May 2012, 10:19 PM   #221
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I think no matter how you feel about whaling in general, I think its fair to say that Japanese whaling has as much to do with research as the Sea Shepard does with whale conservation.
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Old 15th May 2012, 10:30 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
The guise of "research" has a lot to do with it, yes. If the Japanese could somehow convince me that their whaling is in any way akin to what the Inuit do, I may even change my mind.

But seeing as though they enjoy slaughtering (See Taiji) I'm not gonna hold my breath. They are contemptable.
Your position is confusing to me in that I really don't see much of a distinction between what the Inuit do and the Japanese. I understand that some think whaling is always bad, a view I've held the majority of my life, but these two cultures are both trying to hold on to something they see as their respective heritage, perhaps a bad culture practice and I understand that argument but cultural nonetheless and they use similar excuses, I really don't see much difference.
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Old 15th May 2012, 10:31 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
HA HA HA HA!!!!!!

He's taking our money and fueling a pleasure cruise with our money....


IN THE ANTARCTIC

Okee doke. Hellova spot. Me? I'd have chosen Bermuda but I'm goofy like that.
I would actually love to take a vacation to Antarctica. I've applied (unsuccessfully) to get work at McMurdo and I have a few friends who've taken a cruise there. I'd take it over the tropics any day.
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Old 15th May 2012, 10:38 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
If you all had tasted whale meat, you would all cheer the whalers on.

Mmm, whale meat.
I disagree. I think that Muk Tuk is disgusting and the meat itself is OK but nothing to write home about. Its tender for sure but very marbled with fat as well. Of course, the meat I had was only boiled in water without any flavoring or spices at all so I don't know what it would be like if properly prepared. The Inuit insisted that the photos were not free and that I had to participate in the work, the food, and the festivities. Cultural immersion I suppose.
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Old 15th May 2012, 10:45 PM   #225
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In point of fact Antarctica is visited by hundreds of tourists every year on cruise ships and private yachts. And that's not counting the however many visitors like this tool who declare that they will not be following any country's laws about visiting Antarctica (but still expect Southern Ocean nations to respond when they need assistance) and never check in with anyone.
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Old 15th May 2012, 10:46 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I disagree. I think that Muk Tuk is disgusting and the meat itself is OK but nothing to write home about. Its tender for sure but very marbled with fat as well. Of course, the meat I had was only boiled in water without any flavoring or spices at all so I don't know what it would be like if properly prepared. The Inuit insisted that the photos were not free and that I had to participate in the work, the food, and the festivities. Cultural immersion I suppose.
Boiled? Sounds horrible.. Treat it like a steak and it turns out delicious.

Whale meat isn't every day food in Norway. I eat it less than once a year, and mostly only when grandma makes it. But it sure is a treat. I see the word 'heritage' thrown around, and I'm sure that's part of why the Inuits and Faroese do it. But when it comes to Japan, I suspect they do it for the same reason we Norwegians do it: We see it as a great tasting meat and a real treat.
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Old 15th May 2012, 10:48 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
In point of fact Antarctica is visited by hundreds of tourists every year on cruise ships and private yachts. And that's not counting the however many visitors like this tool who declare that they will not be following any country's laws about visiting Antarctica (but still expect Southern Ocean nations to respond when they need assistance) and never check in with anyone.
Nice tie in to the thread topic, as Sea Shepherd assisted in the search for Berserk..
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Old 15th May 2012, 10:51 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
who were you speaking to ?
Macgyver1968 clearly was only angry at Randfan
I saw him reacting to a personal insult the way most people do: personal insults make people angry.

Sure, Randfan apologized but you then very quickly took the opportunity to make fun of him in a pretty dirty fashion - advancing the fallacy that getting angry at a personal insult is the same thing as a bankrupt emotional argument. He got angry and left at that dirty tactic of yours, which was on top of a previously dirty tactic by someone else. And you followed with another one too. Human nature dictates that once anger is provoked, the apology does not instantly vacate that anger so it is an especially vulnerable time for the person provoked.

But I do withdraw any statement about Watson being your terrorist hero. I actually did think a previous comment with an ad hom in it was yours, and it wasn't. You were just having a lot of fun making him angry, basically accusing him of being a hypocrite which was not true and a cheap shot. So I apologize for that confusion but it remains true you took a cheap shot at a guy who was already provoked, and you thought that was funny.
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Old 15th May 2012, 10:56 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
I saw him reacting to a personal insult the way most people do: personal insults make people angry.

Sure, Randfan apologized but you then very quickly took the opportunity to make fun of him in a pretty dirty fashion - advancing the fallacy that getting angry at a personal insult is the same thing as a bankrupt emotional argument. He got angry and left at that dirty tactic of yours, which was on top of a previously dirty tactic by someone else. And you followed with another one too. Human nature dictates that once anger is provoked, the apology does not instantly vacate that anger so it is an especially vulnerable time for the person provoked.

But I do withdraw any statement about Watson being your terrorist hero. I actually did think a previous comment with an ad hom in it was yours, and it wasn't. You were just having a lot of fun making him angry, basically accusing him of being a hypocrite which was not true and a cheap shot. So I apologize for that confusion but it remains true you took a cheap shot at a guy who was already provoked, and you thought that was funny.
you are confusing humour with dirty tactics, there has been no anomosity between Magyver and me in this thread at all and at no time have I accused anyone of being a hypocrite, maybe you should go back and re read it,

admit it, you went off on one with no reason apart from that which you have already admitted you misread which I didn't post, your accusation of enmity on my part therefore was made under a misunderstanding and is unfounded. You have yet to withdraw that like you did your claim Watson is my hero

Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
I admire people that have integrity.
show me yours !
Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
See how I "won?" .
This wasn't a contest
Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
I got him angry.
that was Randfan, your post was all over the shop wasn't it

Last edited by Marduk; 15th May 2012 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 15th May 2012, 10:57 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Boiled? Sounds horrible.. Treat it like a steak and it turns out delicious.

Whale meat isn't every day food in Norway. I eat it less than once a year, and mostly only when grandma makes it. But it sure is a treat. I see the word 'heritage' thrown around, and I'm sure that's part of why the Inuits and Faroese do it. But when it comes to Japan, I suspect they do it for the same reason we Norwegians do it: We see it as a great tasting meat and a real treat.
we were a mile offshore on the ice with limited supplies. I have tons of photos
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Old 15th May 2012, 11:31 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am just thinking of a good old fashion Boston st Patricks day parade.

See US Representative Peter King

Or this link and link
I'm still lost. Are you seriously implying that support for the IRA is either a policy of the US government, or an important part of America's national identity (or both)?
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:00 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
Suppose that we aren't talking about fully self-aware humans, but humans who are at a similar level of awareness as seals and whales, like infants or children?
Sounds like an argument for legalizing abortion through the 24th trimester to me.

Or are you arguing that--whales and humans being roughly equal--it's in our best interest to prohibit the killing of whales, in order to justify prohibiting the killing of humans. Is that what you're arguing?
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:22 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
I have no idea what you just said...what the **** does AIDS and the middle east have anything do with the justification of killing whales?
You totally missed the point. He was responding to an argument that went along the lines of "Why would they try to prevent whaling when there are worse things out there?" The point is that there is always "worse stuff" out there, and at any rate what issue is worse than another is open for debate. If there's a problem, then it's perfectly ok that someone spends time trying to solve it or at least get people to pay attention to it, regardless of whether there are worse problems out there.
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:27 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Your position is confusing to me in that I really don't see much of a distinction between what the Inuit do and the Japanese.
I don't see the distinction either.

I think the difference is that there are more Japanese people or something and letting them hunt whales will take whales away from the Inuit, Norwegians, Faroese, Icelanders, people in Chukotka Autonomous Oblast (Russia), people from Lamalera and Lamakera (Indonesia), and people from various Caribbean countries and do you want all those people to starve?

Quote:
I understand that some think whaling is always bad, a view I've held the majority of my life, but these two cultures are both trying to hold on to something they see as their respective heritage, perhaps a bad culture practice and I understand that argument but cultural nonetheless and they use similar excuses, I really don't see much difference.
The only difference seems to be scale. If the Japanese only took 100 whales people wouldn't be so up in arms about their hunts either because they aren't killing as many whales or because the numbers are in the range of aboriginal quotas.
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Old 16th May 2012, 02:15 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I don't see the distinction either.
Me either. I suspect some fuzzy-headed Rousseau-esque "noble savage" rubbish or equally foolish cultural relativist ideas influenced the decision to let tribal people kill whales. My view is that they should be made to knock it off just as the Japanese should be made to knock it off. It's 2012, they don't need to kill whales and we shouldn't tolerate them killing whales for fun or for profit.
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Old 16th May 2012, 02:25 AM   #236
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What's with the 'don't need to' argument? If we're only going to eat food we really need, we'd all have a very bland diet. There's a lot of stuff out there that we don't need to eat.
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Old 16th May 2012, 02:58 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
1.) Not all animals experience pain the same (that's a scientific fact). 2.) Not all animals are self aware. So, IMO, there is a substantive difference based on empirical evidence. Repeating the same argument over and over isn't advancing the discussion.
So dogs are not self aware, so their pain does not matter. They why is dog fighting an issue?
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Old 16th May 2012, 03:06 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Are you being obtuse? You are arguing by assertion and that's a fallacy. You are not making an argument based on empirical facts. I am.

Ad hominem deleted. Sorry.
And what facts are those? Studies in dolphins and generalizing them to all whales is like a study in chimps and generalizing it to all primates. Show your work.
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Old 16th May 2012, 03:18 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm still lost. Are you seriously implying that support for the IRA is either a policy of the US government, or an important part of America's national identity (or both)?
My point is that people broadly don't care about what a group does but if they agree with that groups stated goals.
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Old 16th May 2012, 03:47 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
Do you truly feel this is the kind of cause that's worth killing people for?
who got killed?

Do you truly feel whaling is the kind of cause that's worth killing endangered species for?
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