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Tags Costa Rica incidents , environmental activists , paul watson , protest incidents

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Old 16th May 2012, 04:14 AM   #241
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Just because one opposes whaling doesn't mean that one has to approve of the actions of every jerk who also opposes it.
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Old 16th May 2012, 04:29 AM   #242
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I've crewed on boats...


I consider myself careless...

That guy is RECKLESS.

It's OK to put yourself in harm's way - it is not OK to risk other people's lives (and some of the people on his boat are downright naive).
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Old 16th May 2012, 04:54 AM   #243
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So this is where the Usual Suspects have been instead of the other animal thread.

Personally, I think there are more effective/meaningful ways of making progress on this issue.
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Old 16th May 2012, 05:21 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Nice tie in to the thread topic, as Sea Shepherd assisted in the search for Berserk..
Glad to see they observe the obligations of a ship at sea every once in a while at least.
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Old 16th May 2012, 05:33 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
What's with the 'don't need to' argument? If we're only going to eat food we really need, we'd all have a very bland diet. There's a lot of stuff out there that we don't need to eat.
See my previous post if you are having trouble thinking of ways in which harpooning humpbacks might be meaningfully different to slaughtering cows.
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Old 16th May 2012, 05:55 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Your position is confusing to me in that I really don't see much of a distinction between what the Inuit do and the Japanese. I understand that some think whaling is always bad, a view I've held the majority of my life, but these two cultures are both trying to hold on to something they see as their respective heritage, perhaps a bad culture practice and I understand that argument but cultural nonetheless and they use similar excuses, I really don't see much difference.
One is commercial and one isn't. One is in international waters and one isn't. One is for personal use and one is for sale to the highest bidder.

If the Japanese want to commercially fish their own waters that's their right I suppose, but if they want to harvest marine mammals in international waters they should get 'international' permission. It just seems right.
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Old 16th May 2012, 06:18 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
It took me a couple of years to go through sixty pounds of whale meat. It is VERY strong, and you definitely know this thing came from the ocean. Bowhead.

Thus far not one of these shrill emotional defenders has been able to demonstrate any verifiable achievement by their superhero in actual conservation. It is pretty clear to me that he's doing what they want - not conservation, but just attacking people they hate.

They hate whalers, so anyone killing a whaler is their hero. I'm glad this thread has given them the opportunity to showcase their base, malicious character.
The Japanese quota is roughly 1,000 whales. The last two years, they have gone home well under that, and early to boot.

It's working.
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Old 16th May 2012, 06:21 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checkmite
I mean this guy gets his boat and rams a Japanese whaler and it's claimed that this is "doing something"; but what really happened? Did the whaler stop and turn around and say "okay, we quit"?
Actually, yes. Two years in a row.
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Old 16th May 2012, 06:26 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I think no matter how you feel about whaling in general, I think its fair to say that Japanese whaling has as much to do with research as the Sea Shepard does with whale conservation.
???

Help me here.

If the quota is 1,000 whales, and Sea Shepherd intervenes to the point where the culling is ended at say, 275 whales, did they not 'conserve' 725 whales?
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Old 16th May 2012, 06:28 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I would actually love to take a vacation to Antarctica. I've applied (unsuccessfully) to get work at McMurdo and I have a few friends who've taken a cruise there. I'd take it over the tropics any day.
As would I - but I wouldn't spend my time on a ship in some of the worst seas on the planet and call it a vacation.
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Old 16th May 2012, 06:38 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
So this is where the Usual Suspects have been instead of the other animal thread.

Personally, I think there are more effective/meaningful ways of making progress on this issue.
Do tell.
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Old 16th May 2012, 08:05 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So dogs are not self aware, so their pain does not matter.
That's not my argument. You are conflating to separate premises but I admit that I have not been clear. I have argued for the position of *Temple Grandin that suffering is on a gradient. While I believe self-awareness is very likely important for how an animals experiences pain I do not hold that only self-aware animals suffer.

Originally Posted by Grandin
source When the structure of the brain and nervous system is studied, there is no black and white line between people and higher mammals such as chimps, dogs or cows. The genome project has shown that humans and mice share many genes (Gunter and Dhand, 2002). In mammals 30 to 40% of all genes are involved in nervous system development and function. The basic design of the nervous system and the neural mechanisms that process fear and pain are similar in humans and other mammals (Rogan and LeDoux, 1996). Colpaert et al. (2001) reported that rats will self medicate themselves with pain killers to relieve pain in arthritic joints.. Pain and fear both cause suffering. As nervous system and brain complexity increases the welfare needs of the animal increase and become more complex, but all animals that have sufficient nervous systems complexity to suffer from either pain or fear need basic welfare protections. Animals with complex brains also have greater social needs and a need for greater environmental enrichment.
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Old 16th May 2012, 08:30 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And what facts are those? Studies in dolphins and generalizing them to all whales is like a study in chimps and generalizing it to all primates. Show your work.
You are laboring under a misconception. I am countering the argument that "pain-is-pain". I posit that not all people experience pain similarly. I note that humans on average have both a sensory and emotional component to pain. The emotional component significantly increases the severity of the pain and the suffering. For some people pain is just an annoying sensation and they can endure pain more easily.

To the extent that inferences from dolphins are made for whales in general, it's not a hasty generalization because much study has been done on both whales and dolphins and they share many things in common including relative brain size, brain complexity, complex social behavior and communication. Scientists must often make these kinds of inferences because studying every species in depth is not possible. The inferences are not unreasonable. Your criticism is more typical of the anti-evolution crowd who seek only to make negative claims. In any event,
  • I've not made any categorical claims about what whales feel or experience as it relates to pain.
  • I do not claim that whales are entitled to rights or that it is immoral to kill them.
  • I'm only arguing that there is a substantive difference between whales and other animals as it relates to cognitive capabilities.
The evidence I've posted is sufficient to establish my point. I've shown my work.
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Old 16th May 2012, 08:35 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Really? Let's look at the video:

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I AGREE


Look at the back of the Ady Gill from the beginning of the video to around 07 second mark. Virtually no prop wash, and the Japanese boat is well to the left of their vessel. Then look what happens around the 14-15 second mark. The prop wash dramatically increases, and the boat begins to move forward...right into the path of the Japanese vessel.
Oh yes, it's very clear in the footage. They deliberately rammed the whaling ship - and, as it turns out, later deliberately sank their own boat rather than saving it, so they could talk the incident up to the media.
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Old 16th May 2012, 08:36 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Furcifer View Post
One is commercial and one isn't. One is in international waters and one isn't. One is for personal use and one is for sale to the highest bidder.
No, the Inuit absolutely sell the meat. These aren't individuals going out and hunting whales expressly to feed their own families.
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Old 16th May 2012, 08:40 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Actually, yes. Two years in a row.
Proof?

Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
???

Help me here.

If the quota is 1,000 whales, and Sea Shepherd intervenes to the point where the culling is ended at say, 275 whales, did they not 'conserve' 725 whales?
Have the ships historically always taken exactly 1,000 whales? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing the number varies widely year by year.
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Old 16th May 2012, 08:40 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Oh yes, it's very clear in the footage. They deliberately rammed the whaling ship - and, as it turns out, later deliberately sank their own boat rather than saving it, so they could talk the incident up to the media.
I'm sorry, but if you can't see the Shonan Maru turning HARD towards the Ady Gil, you really need glasses. The captain of the Ady Gil wasn't even piloting the ship. They were idling for chrissake.

I can understand you people not liking them, but to interpret this as anything other than the Japanese ship turning toward the Ady Gil and intentionally ramming it is beyond insane.
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Old 16th May 2012, 08:42 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Proof?



Have the ships historically always taken exactly 1,000 whales? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing the number varies widely year by year.
Don't pretend the SSCS isn't doing anything. The Japanese themselves catagorically stated that they cut their culling short due to the actions of the Sea Shepherds. They've been taking fewer and fewer whales as the SSCS presence increases.

It's simple math.
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Old 16th May 2012, 08:55 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Don't pretend the SSCS isn't doing anything. The Japanese themselves catagorically stated that they cut their culling short due to the actions of the Sea Shepherds.
Links?
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Old 16th May 2012, 09:11 AM   #260
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OWS could learn something from the whaling wars. They need some butyric acid.
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Old 16th May 2012, 09:30 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I'm sorry, but if you can't see the Shonan Maru turning HARD towards the Ady Gil, you really need glasses.
Actually I do need glasses, and indeed wear them. And was wearing them when I looked at the footage. Which is how I could see that the Ady Gil accelerated into the side of the whaling ship.

In a broader sense, as the far faster and far more manoeuvrable ship the Ady Gil is responsible for not putting itself into that position in the first place.

And of course in an even broader sense the Sea Shepherds are a terrorist organisation that exists to break the law, and they should even have been there in the first place.

Any way you look at it, it was their fault.

Personally I honestly wish that the Japanese government would send one of those nice little Hayabusa class patrol boats along to protect their ships. Would love to see what one of those 76mm cannon would do. It'll never happen, the Japanese are far too civilised to treat the Clowns of the Sea the way they deserve to be treated. But a man can dream, dammit. A man can dream!
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Old 16th May 2012, 09:55 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Links?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17312460

Quote:
The whaling ships headed home from the Antarctic Ocean this week with 266 minke whales and one fin whale, falling short of its quota of about 900.

The agency blamed "sabotage" by anti-whaling activists for the shortfall.
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Old 16th May 2012, 09:58 AM   #263
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The quota is a limit, not a goal, you know.
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Old 16th May 2012, 10:10 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Actually I do need glasses, and indeed wear them. And was wearing them when I looked at the footage. Which is how I could see that the Ady Gil accelerated into the side of the whaling ship.

In a broader sense, as the far faster and far more manoeuvrable ship the Ady Gil is responsible for not putting itself into that position in the first place.

And of course in an even broader sense the Sea Shepherds are a terrorist organisation that exists to break the law, and they should even have been there in the first place.

Any way you look at it, it was their fault.

Personally I honestly wish that the Japanese government would send one of those nice little Hayabusa class patrol boats along to protect their ships. Would love to see what one of those 76mm cannon would do. It'll never happen, the Japanese are far too civilised to treat the Clowns of the Sea the way they deserve to be treated. But a man can dream, dammit. A man can dream!
Oh.
my.
GOD.

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Look how far away the Shonan Maru was. There is no way the captain of that ship should have closed to the Ady Gil from that distance. At the beginning, the Ady Gil is underway, at a very slow speed. Then Captain Bethune tells the helmsman to slow down. Around 2:00 it is painfully clear that they are barely even moving. You can also see the Shonan Maru turn hard toward the Ady Gil.

There simply is no other way to intepret this. I would think by now I've shown that I can be reasonable, and that I do my research. I'm not a "throw it against the wall and hope it sticks" storyteller like our truthers are.

The Shonan Maru intentionally rammed the Ady Gil. That is what happened. Any other interpretation is flat-out false. The only reason you see the Ady Gil increase speed from (from the view of the Japanese ship) is to get out of the way. You can't see this from the Ady Gil view because the cameraman was too busy trying to not be murdered.
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Old 16th May 2012, 10:13 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Quote:
Japan's whaling activities are contrary to international law. That is why Australia commenced and will continue legal action in the International Court of Justice. New Zealand has announced its intention to intervene in support of Australia's case. Our efforts are aimed at ending Southern Ocean whaling for good.

The Australian Government has and will continue to call on all parties to exercise restraint and to ensure that safety of human life at sea is the highest priority. With the Japanese fleet returning home, Australia will continue its efforts to achieve a permanent end to whaling in a calm and measured manner, through the International Court of Justice.
Hey, look - there's anti-whaling folks in the southern ocean who aren't acting like penises or wrecklessly assaulting people with deadly weapons like multiton ships. Imagine that! I thought "nobody else was doing anything"?
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Old 16th May 2012, 10:20 AM   #266
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Quote:
Hey, look - there's anti-whaling folks in the southern ocean who aren't acting like penises or wrecklessly assaulting people with deadly weapons like multiton ships. Imagine that! I thought "nobody else was doing anything"?
No there arne't. There's a ton of suits trying to placate the Japanese because their economy depends on Japan. They're afraid of Japan. Who else is IN the Southern Ocean doing anything about it? I see no names in that quote of yours.

Again, SSCS never said they were anything but an action-oriented organization. They're not pretending to be nice guys.
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Old 16th May 2012, 10:21 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Oh.
my.
GOD.

***Some potty-mouth language and I would recommend turning your volume down due to the LRAD at about 2:00.

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I AGREE
Nothing in that changes what I saw happening; the Ady Gil rammed into the side of the whaling ship.

Did the whaling ship manoeuvre up close to them in the first place? Sure. So what? That has nothing to do with anything. In the last ten seconds or so up to the impact, the Ady Gil accelerates forward and into the side of the whaling ship.

Quote:
The only reason you see the Ady Gil increase speed from (from the view of the Japanese ship) is to get out of the way.
They accelerated their boat towards the side of a ship... to try and get out of the way? I know these people certainly come across as frequently incompetent, but I'd have thought even they would know that backing up would be the way to go on that one.

Still, I do concede that the collision might be a result of their utter incompetence rather than a deliberate attempt at martyrdom.
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Old 16th May 2012, 10:52 AM   #268
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Quote:
Did the whaling ship manoeuvre up close to them in the first place? Sure. So what? That has nothing to do with anything.

Um...what?



I'm no mariner, but I think that if your ship is hardly moving, it's difficult to ram a larger ship almost a mile away. Tell me, how do you ram a ship coming at you when you're not moving? The full report makes this quite clear that the Shonan Maru #2 is the ship that was overtaking the Ady Gil, and as such was the ship responsible for safety.



Yea, yea, I know....

LINK! (This is a direct link to a PDF. I can't it on a normal website)


Quote:
They accelerated their boat towards the side of a ship... to try and get out of the way?
The Ady Gil was about as maneuverable as a life jacket unless it's got speed on its side. How do you get speed? I dunno. Maybe speed up? They only accelerated after Shonan was almost literally on top of them! They were reacting to the situation.
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Old 16th May 2012, 10:52 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Actually I do need glasses, and indeed wear them. And was wearing them when I looked at the footage. Which is how I could see that the Ady Gil accelerated into the side of the whaling ship.

In a broader sense, as the far faster and far more manoeuvrable ship the Ady Gil is responsible for not putting itself into that position in the first place.

And of course in an even broader sense the Sea Shepherds are a terrorist organisation that exists to break the law, and they should even have been there in the first place.

Any way you look at it, it was their fault.

Personally I honestly wish that the Japanese government would send one of those nice little Hayabusa class patrol boats along to protect their ships. Would love to see what one of those 76mm cannon would do. It'll never happen, the Japanese are far too civilised to treat the Clowns of the Sea the way they deserve to be treated. But a man can dream, dammit. A man can dream!
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Old 16th May 2012, 11:33 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Furcifer View Post
One is commercial and one isn't. One is in international waters and one isn't. One is for personal use and one is for sale to the highest bidder.
So what about the people of Lamalera and Lamakera in Indonesia? They hunt whales for "personal use", and are legally permitted to do so, but they also trade the meat for other goods. Are they acting in a commercial or non-commercial fashion?

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If the Japanese want to commercially fish their own waters that's their right I suppose, but if they want to harvest marine mammals in international waters they should get 'international' permission. It just seems right.
Which they technically have done with the research permits. The problem is that there is nothing in the regulations that says that Japan isn't allowed to sell the meat afterwards.
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Old 16th May 2012, 11:56 AM   #271
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As someone who has spent a few years at sea I have to say that the SS are at best irresponsible seamen. What's worse is that they know it and are doing it on purpose. They regularly take on a substantial number of crew members who have never been to sea and it shows in some of the boneheaded things that they do (and that's just what we see on a one hour show so you know that there's a lot more boneheaded stuff that we don't see).

Then there's the danger that they seemingly have no problem placing others in. Prop fouling for example. Intentionally causing another ship to lose power in the middle of a notoriously rough ocean is, in my opinion, attempted murder. What's really funny is that in the latest iteration of Whale Wars (in the islands northwest of Scotland) one of their small boats was prop fouled by the "Whalers" and they were crying about that tactic being illegal (and they were in nowhere near as dangerous waters as the Southern Ocean).

In the case of the Ady Gil they intentionally created a situation where they stood a good chance of causing a collision (much like how someone looking to collect on car insurance might slam on the brakes in the middle of a highway in order to get rear ended because the other car was following "Too closely"). While they may have been borderline correct in their actions as per the international rules of the road they were still clearly held at least half of the blame in that incident and I believe that's what a few different international courts found as well.

I used to listen to whales at sea (in the sonar shack and sometimes I could hear them in my bunk through the pressure hull) and I don't think that they should be hunted yet I too couldn't help but start to root for the whalers only because of the SS actions. I read some of the Animal Planet forums a few years back when Whale Wars was first airing and the overwhelming response was pro whalers (not pro whaling, there is a difference). The following seasons they cut back on the boneheaded stuff being shown but I have no doubt that it was still going on. Idiots like that don't just stop being idiots all of a sudden.

In my opinion they are eco-terrorists and I'm not alone in that conclusion. They have a very hard time getting their vessels flagged (several nations have pulled their previously granted flagged status from the Sea Shepards solely due to their illegal actions).
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Old 16th May 2012, 12:00 PM   #272
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So what about the people of Lamalera and Lamakera in Indonesia? They hunt whales for "personal use", and are legally permitted to do so, but they also trade the meat for other goods. Are they acting in a commercial or non-commercial fashion?
Are they doing it in a protected sanctuary under the guise of "research"?

(AKA Lying their asses off about it?)
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Old 16th May 2012, 12:05 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I'm no mariner, but I think that if your ship is hardly moving, it's difficult to ram a larger ship almost a mile away.
At the point the Ady Gil accelerates towards it the ship is only about 20 yards away. I think it's quite easy to do it from that distance myself.

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Tell me, how do you ram a ship coming at you when you're not moving?
You don't. You do it by moving, which the Ady Gil did.

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The full report makes this quite clear that the Shonan Maru #2 is the ship that was overtaking the Ady Gil, and as such was the ship responsible for safety.
I agree that the Shonan Maru 2 was overtaking and disagree that this means they are responsible. If I'm overtaking somebody and he suddenly veers into me as I go past, it's his fault.

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The Ady Gil was about as maneuverable as a life jacket unless it's got speed on its side. How do you get speed? I dunno. Maybe speed up? They only accelerated after Shonan was almost literally on top of them! They were reacting to the situation.
So gee, ya think maybe it would have been a good idea to speed up earlier? And maybe in a direction that wasn't straight at the nearby ship? Like a crew that were not incompetent morons might have done?

These lunatics openly admit that they want to be out there to get in close and get in the way. What happens as a result is their fault.
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Old 16th May 2012, 12:12 PM   #274
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Collision from the Shonan Maru's perspective

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Old 16th May 2012, 12:24 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
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I AGREE
Yup. The Ady Gil CLEARLY runs into the side of the ship.
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Old 16th May 2012, 12:27 PM   #276
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I like how water cannon guy keeps spraying the Andy Gibb even after his ship performs a radical rhinoplasty on it.
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Old 16th May 2012, 12:27 PM   #277
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Quote:
I agree that the Shonan Maru 2 was overtaking and disagree that this means they are responsible. If I'm overtaking somebody and he suddenly veers into me as I go past, it's his fault.
You don't get to "disagree" I wasn't offering an opinion. I was stating a fact.

The Shonan Maru was overtaking the Ady Gil, it was their responisibility to steer clear.
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Old 16th May 2012, 12:30 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Yup. The Ady Gil CLEARLY runs into the side of the ship.
In the very beginning of that video, the Ady Gil is not moving. AT ALL. It's in idle. It was that way more than a minute. Each and every second of that minute the Shonan Maru was turning hard to intercept and ram the Ady Gil. It was the Shonan that closed onto the Ady Gil, not the other way around. Only when it was too late did the helmsman of the Ady Gil figure out what the hell was going on, and that's when you see the propwash of the Ady Gil as they attempt to get out of dodge.

I'd also like to find where Pete Bethune orders the helmsman to ram the Shonan Maru. Where's the order? He's outside the ship, as a matter of fact, all you can hear him say in the video taken from the Ady Gil is an order to slow down.
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Old 16th May 2012, 12:30 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
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I AGREE
And you can clearly see the prop wash from the Ady Gil increase from idle (almost imperceptible) to ahead speed (white foam) just as the bow of the Maru approached them. If they hadn't had done that then they wouldn't have been hit. Like I said, both were held at fault for the collision. The Maru for being so close and the Gil for crossing the path of an approaching ship. The Gil was there to harass and cause problems to the whalers and that's what they did until they forgot that fifty tons of steel will always win over 3 tons of carbon fiber and fiberglass.

There was some speculation at the time by others that the Ady was near the end of her operational cycle due to cracks in her framing and so on and that the repairs were going to cost more than what the ship was originally built for and that's why they took so many risks with her. She was expendable.
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Old 16th May 2012, 12:36 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Howie Felterbush View Post
I like how water cannon guy keeps spraying the Andy Gibb even after his ship performs a radical rhinoplasty on it.
I think that it was unmanned at the time. It's easier to keep a pump running than to prime it up and start it several times a day (which can take a few minutes or more). The SS are doing the same thing in their latest show.
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