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Tags Costa Rica incidents , environmental activists , paul watson , protest incidents

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Old 16th May 2012, 12:51 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
And you can clearly see the prop wash from the Ady Gil increase from idle (almost imperceptible) to ahead speed (white foam) just as the bow of the Maru approached them. If they hadn't had done that then they wouldn't have been hit. Like I said, both were held at fault for the collision. The Maru for being so close and the Gil for crossing the path of an approaching ship. The Gil was there to harass and cause problems to the whalers and that's what they did until they forgot that fifty tons of steel will always win over 3 tons of carbon fiber and fiberglass.

There was some speculation at the time by others that the Ady was near the end of her operational cycle due to cracks in her framing and so on and that the repairs were going to cost more than what the ship was originally built for and that's why they took so many risks with her. She was expendable.
Thanks for the info. If you don't mind and if you know, why was the Gil shaped as it was, speed? Aesthetics? Looks like something out of Batman.
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Old 16th May 2012, 12:55 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
My point is that people broadly don't care about what a group does but if they agree with that groups stated goals.
Ah, okay. I was able to follow you that far. Where you lost me was with the example you gave: "Kind of like how supporting the IRA is american."

I guess since we both agree on the point itself, you probably don't need to explain why your example makes sense to you (and should to me).
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Old 16th May 2012, 12:59 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Thanks for the info. If you don't mind and if you know, why was the Gil shaped as it was, speed? Aesthetics? Looks like something out of Batman.
The Gil was a trimaran, and originally designed to attempt a motorized around-the-world speed record (it failed). Captain Dickbeard later bought it. For saving whales it was useless in every sense; but when you've got enough "donations" pouring in, what else are you going to spend the money on but a tiny speedboat full of expensive high-tech gadgetry?
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:00 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Thanks for the info. If you don't mind and if you know, why was the Gil shaped as it was, speed? Aesthetics? Looks like something out of Batman.
The Ady Gil was originally named "Earthrace". It was purpose built to try to set the speed record for circumnavigating the earth by a powerboat.

It was built for pure speed, and long distance travel.
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:00 PM   #285
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Quote:
If they hadn't had done that then they wouldn't have been hit.
Well I disagree. I think if they hadn't done that, the Shonan Maru would have simply kept turning and rammed them anyway. Why else would they turn hard toward the Ady Gil in the first place?

Quote:
There was some speculation at the time by others that the Ady was near the end of her operational cycle due to cracks in her framing and so on and that the repairs were going to cost more than what the ship was originally built for and that's why they took so many risks with her. She was expendable.
The Captain of the Ady Gil, Pete Bethune, attempted the fastest circumnavigation using that ship. I find it unlikely that a man so financially and emotionally invested in his ship would intentionally skuttle it for ratings.
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Last edited by NoahFence; 16th May 2012 at 01:04 PM. Reason: whoopsie I thought he did it
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:03 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Thanks for the info. If you don't mind and if you know, why was the Gil shaped as it was, speed? Aesthetics? Looks like something out of Batman.
Hydrodynamics. Catamaran hulls have nearly half the drag of conventional hulls. That not only means more speed but also more distance for the same amount of fuel. It was purpose built for breaking the world record in circumnavigating the globe. From what I saw of her interior she was sorely lacking in crew amenities to help keep the weight down.

The stress on the hull was anticipated and they knew that it probably wouldn't be of much use after the world record attempt. If you watched the season where it was used they spent a lot of time at slower speeds and only sped up in calmer waters which I suspect was due to their knowing the true condition of the ship and how fragile it had become as well as the fact that even a small chunk of ice could easily sink her if struck at speed.
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:08 PM   #287
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The Gil was a trimaran, not a cat IIRC.
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:16 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Well I disagree. I think if they hadn't done that, the Shonan Maru would have simply kept turning and rammed them anyway. Why else would they turn hard toward the Ady Gil in the first place?
You can disagree all that you want. The New Zealand and Australian maritime courts found that both were at fault for the reasons that I gave. To be fair the Aussies went with inconclusive which is legal-speak for the evidence was against both captains so they couldn't decide who to blame but the NZ courts found both to be at blame.

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The Captain of the Ady Gil, Pete Bethune, attempted the fastest circumnavigation using that ship. I find it unlikely that a man so financially and emotionally invested in his ship would intentionally skuttle it for ratings.
Not television ratings but appeals to emotion. Which you seem to be falling for. By all reliable accounts that I can find the ship was nearing the end of its life cycle. It intentionally wasn't built to last for much longer than the voyage that it was originally built for. Extra strength means more weight which ran counter to its original mission of gaining the record for the fastest global circumnavigation.
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:19 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
You don't get to "disagree" I wasn't offering an opinion. I was stating a fact.
And yet here I am, disagreeing anyway.
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:19 PM   #290
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Thanks everyone for the info on the Andy Gil.
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:20 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The Gil was a trimaran, not a cat IIRC.
Yes it was but in my defense the same hydrodynamic principles still apply. Less wetted hull area means less drag and it's easier to plane up with a shallower draft spread out over a few hulls than it is to plane up on one deeper hull. See the Americas Cup for examples of this in action.
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:24 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
It intentionally wasn't built to last for much longer than the voyage that it was originally built for. Extra strength means more weight which ran counter to its original mission of gaining the record for the fastest global circumnavigation.
I'm trying to remember which race car driver said it....It was along the lines of "The best race car is one that crosses the finish line in first...then falls apart". In other words, 100% of it's usefulness was used to win the race.
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Old 16th May 2012, 01:24 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Thanks everyone for the info on the Andy Gil.
Did you see the one that replaced her?



Say what you want about the SSCS, but they get damn cool ships.....

Apparently naming it the Gojira (Godzilla) hurt the delicate sensibilities of some people so it was renamed the Bridget Bardot
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Old 16th May 2012, 02:17 PM   #294
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At least if they're starting to use fiberglass vessels they can't run into anyone again without sinking themselves (unless that's the plan).
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Old 16th May 2012, 02:37 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

My favorite part of that video is watching the Japanese whalers getting one last shot in with the stern water cannon as they pass (video at 0:33).
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Old 16th May 2012, 02:44 PM   #296
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Duplicate post
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Old 16th May 2012, 02:48 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
My favorite part of that video is watching the Japanese whalers getting one last shot in with the stern water cannon as they pass (video at 0:33).
..and if you listen closely, you hear them say "**** you, Whale!!!! and a **** you, dolphin!!"

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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Old 16th May 2012, 03:30 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
So what about the people of Lamalera and Lamakera in Indonesia? They hunt whales for "personal use", and are legally permitted to do so, but they also trade the meat for other goods. Are they acting in a commercial or non-commercial fashion?



Which they technically have done with the research permits. The problem is that there is nothing in the regulations that says that Japan isn't allowed to sell the meat afterwards.
I don't think there's any question the Japanese vessels are commercial fishing vessels. They even have commercial processing facilities if I'm not mistaken.

The fishing done in Canada, Norway and even in parts of Japan is done with recreational vessels. If that's what they use in Indonesia it's probably not what would typically be considered "commercial". The sale of fish isn't as much a determination as is the capacity to catch fish. If you fish all day with 2 poles and sell your fish you're not considered commercial. Use 3 poles, or a net you start getting into commercial fishing territory.

I think the fact the Japanese are fishing in intenational waters and not coastal waters, like all of the other whaling operations, is a defining point. It's not like they're wandering a few miles off shore, they're scouring the globe. That's a level of organization only available to commercial operations.

If it's "technically" OK to "research" whales with a harpoon, then it's "technically" OK to park your boat anywhere on the ocean. If chaos ensues because of this, well so be it. This is a political issue that isn't being addressed and maybe a little activism is in order. I mean "technically" Ms. Parks was breaking the law. "Technically" it would have done her some good to walk a few more feet to the back of the bus.

"Technically" isn't a good answer when it means turning a blind eye to the underlying condition.
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Old 16th May 2012, 03:44 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
..and if you listen closely, you hear them say "**** you, Whale!!!! and a **** you, dolphin!!"

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 16th May 2012, 04:15 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
And you can clearly see the prop wash from the Ady Gil increase from idle (almost imperceptible) to ahead speed (white foam) just as the bow of the Maru approached them. If they hadn't had done that then they wouldn't have been hit.
It was the Maru's legal duty to steer well clear. If the Gill had remained stationary we'd be hearing "Why didn't they move? They were teh awsum speedboat, they could have moved forward out of the way!". They tried to get out of the way so we're hearing "Why did they move? If only they'd held perfectly still the nice Japanese whalers would have just given them a scare! It's the hippies' fault!".

Quote:
There was some speculation at the time by others that the Ady was near the end of her operational cycle due to cracks in her framing and so on and that the repairs were going to cost more than what the ship was originally built for and that's why they took so many risks with her. She was expendable.
As I recall there was speculation that there was a fortune in gold in the WTC that was smuggled out just before 9/11 too. There has been some speculation that speculation might not be evidence, because it's speculated that people might speculate whatever nonsense props up the story they have an emotional need to believe.
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Old 16th May 2012, 04:24 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
So gee, ya think maybe it would have been a good idea to speed up earlier? And maybe in a direction that wasn't straight at the nearby ship? Like a crew that were not incompetent morons might have done?
And nobody is addressing the fact that all marine engines come with this wonderful component called a gearbox. It allows boats to move in reverse as well as ahead. A boat that is not moving has the ability to reverse immediately.

I suspect part of the reason that both vessels were found equally liable is because right-of-way rules dictate that if the stand-on vessel in any situation sees that the give-way vessel is not taking proper steps under the rules to avoid collision, the stand-on vessel then has a duty to maneuver as necessary to prevent the collision. Right-of-way is not a protected right to sit there and allow yourself to be hit if you can in fact prevent it. Even if we are to allow that the Ady really did remain completely still (even though it definitely did not), it was a performance vessel with a powerful engine and there was no single point at which it was not capable of easily backing out of the oncoming vessel's way.

If the pilot "did not realize what was going on" until the moment of the collision, that's just more damning, as all vessels are required to keep an active watch at all times. In rough seas surrounded by multiple moving vessels in extreme close proximity is not the time to duck below for a sandwich.
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Old 16th May 2012, 04:48 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
My favorite part of that video is watching the Japanese whalers getting one last shot in with the stern water cannon as they pass (video at 0:33).

No quarter given.

An appropriate attitude towards pirates.
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Old 16th May 2012, 04:48 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post



As I recall there was speculation that there was a fortune in gold in the WTC that was smuggled out just before 9/11 too. There has been some speculation that speculation might not be evidence, because it's speculated that people might speculate whatever nonsense props up the story they have an emotional need to believe.
Goes both ways.
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Old 16th May 2012, 05:08 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And nobody is addressing the fact that all marine engines come with this wonderful component called a gearbox. It allows boats to move in reverse as well as ahead. A boat that is not moving has the ability to reverse immediately.
About how fast do you think the Ady Gill can accelerate in reverse, as opposed to forwards? Fast enough to evade an oncoming ship that wants to ram them?
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Old 16th May 2012, 05:12 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And nobody is addressing the fact that all marine engines come with this wonderful component called a gearbox. It allows boats to move in reverse as well as ahead. A boat that is not moving has the ability to reverse immediately.
I actually did wonder earlier on whether the Ady Gil might not have a reverse. That seemed really unlikely to me, but what with it being built as this highly specialised one trick pony, just maybe...

I googled around and couldn't find out. But even if that were so it would just make them even more to blame for going out with the intention of doing close in manoeuvring to harass other ships, using a boat that is only minimally capable of properly manoeuvring.

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I suspect part of the reason that both vessels were found equally liable is because right-of-way rules dictate that if the stand-on vessel in any situation sees that the give-way vessel is not taking proper steps under the rules to avoid collision, the stand-on vessel then has a duty to maneuver as necessary to prevent the collision. Right-of-way is not a protected right to sit there and allow yourself to be hit if you can in fact prevent it. Even if we are to allow that the Ady really did remain completely still (even though it definitely did not), it was a performance vessel with a powerful engine and there was no single point at which it was not capable of easily backing out of the oncoming vessel's way.

If the pilot "did not realize what was going on" until the moment of the collision, that's just more damning, as all vessels are required to keep an active watch at all times. In rough seas surrounded by multiple moving vessels in extreme close proximity is not the time to duck below for a sandwich.
Exactly so. It's like a guy wandering around near a road who looks up to see a truck bearing down, about to pass him real close... so he jumps straight into the side of it as it reaches him. Then he bitches and moans because the driver hit him!

But ultimately, whatever the technicalities of that particular incident might be... if the whalers had everything exactly their way, none of these ships would ever go near one another. The whalers just want to go about their lawful business. It is the Clowns of the Sea that go out and deliberately try to get in as close as possible to other ships. It is they that push the confrontations. It is they that bear the responsibility for the entire situation.

I have absolutely no sympathy for them. I honestly don't see any problem with treating them any differently than Somali pirates or any other such scum.
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Old 16th May 2012, 05:14 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
About how fast do you think the Ady Gill can accelerate in reverse, as opposed to forwards? Fast enough to evade an oncoming ship that wants to ram them?
Evidence?
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Old 16th May 2012, 05:26 PM   #307
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It's pretty obvious the Japanese captain tried to ram the other ship. Proving it in court is another story. Arguing about it here is a lesson in futility. All I can suggest to anyone who thinks it was an accident is to watch the entire show, it might change your mind.
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Old 16th May 2012, 06:05 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
At least if they're starting to use fiberglass vessels they can't run into anyone again without sinking themselves (unless that's the plan).
You'll be pleased to know that it was struck by rogue wave and needed to limp away from the battle this winter.
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Old 16th May 2012, 06:10 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Evidence?
I posted it earlier. In the video, the shonan is very far away. The Ady Gil stops moving, then all of a sudden the Shonan is right on top of them. If one ship stops moving, isn't it just obvious who was doing the ramming?
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Old 16th May 2012, 06:52 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I
posted it earlier. In the video, the shonan is very far away. The Ady Gil stops moving, then all of a sudden the Shonan is right on top of them. If one ship stops moving, isn't it just obvious who was doing the ramming?
It is, but it's even more obvious we've been to the moon and there are people who question that. There's a slim chance the Japanese captain lost sight of them and veered the wrong way, but it's very slim. If it happened on day one of the hunt I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt, but this is something like the third week of them pestering the Japanese and the Japanese taking a run at them. You have to watch the entire season to get a feeling for the cat and mouse game that was going on.
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Old 16th May 2012, 06:53 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
I have absolutely no sympathy for them. I honestly don't see any problem with treating them any differently than Somali pirates or any other such scum.
In the end, it all comes down to whether you think whales count as moral entities.

If you don't, if your entire moral universe consists of people and what they want to do, your position makes perfect sense. The Sea Shepherd organisation is annoying humans, the only beings who matter, to protect whales, that don't matter at all. Thus the Sea Shepherd people deserve to be killed...

Oh hang on, that doesn't actually follow. You need some additional stupid ideas to make that argument work, including placing a very low value on human life. Oh well.

But anyway, they at least deserve something bad for annoying humans to save whales.

However if you think that whales actually matter, and that it actually matters whether they are killed inhumanely, then your position is clearly immoral.

You have a scientific problem on your hands here, which is that there's no good scientific reason to put humans on a pedestal as the only beings that matter. We're just another species of animal like chimpanzees, dolphins, gorillas and whales. Drawing an arbitrary line between humans and animals is no more intellectually defensible than drawing an arbitrary line between men and women, or white people and brown people. Beings should be judged by the qualities they have, not what arbitrary label you put on them.
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Old 16th May 2012, 06:59 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
I actually did wonder earlier on whether the Ady Gil might not have a reverse. That seemed really unlikely to me, but what with it being built as this highly specialised one trick pony, just maybe...

I googled around and couldn't find out. But even if that were so it would just make them even more to blame for going out with the intention of doing close in manoeuvring to harass other ships, using a boat that is only minimally capable of properly manoeuvring.
Think simpler, my friend.

Hull designers usually aren't engine designers; boatbuilders tend to use stock mechanical. The Ady Gil is no different in this regard...according to the Wikipedia entry, the boat uses twin 540hp engines fitted with ZF 305A gearboxes. These particular gearboxes can not only reverse, but are engineered to provide the same torque in reverse and ahead modes.

Now, the hull shape may easily prevent the boat from doing its alleged 32-knot top speed in reverse; but 1080 combined horses will be able to yank any 13-ton vessel back smartly, especially a multihull with such little wet surface. In fact, I'd wager the Ady Gil might've been able to outrun that fat whaler in reverse in a dead pursuit.
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Old 16th May 2012, 07:03 PM   #313
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Kevin, you're building an argument on straw.

First, it isn't 'annoying' humans, it's putting humans in real danger of injury and death.

Second, one need not assume anything about if you think whales are moral entities or not to oppose the tactics of the SS. The comparison to abortion clinic bombers is apt in that regard.

You place a lot of emphasis on the ends the SS claims to want, protecting the whales. It's an 'ends justify the means' argument. However, even people who agree with the ends have been very critical of the means.

It does not 'come down to whether you think whales count as moral entities'. It comes down to whether you believe the ends justify the means and that the means are actually reaching the ends.
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Old 16th May 2012, 07:06 PM   #314
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tyr 13, you're such a reasonable guy. Whether it's politics, religion or firearms, we can always count on you to post legitimate, well-reasoned ideas why one side or the other might be preferable.

I'm not sure you belong here.
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Old 16th May 2012, 07:44 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Think simpler, my friend.

Hull designers usually aren't engine designers; boatbuilders tend to use stock mechanical. The Ady Gil is no different in this regard...according to the Wikipedia entry, the boat uses twin 540hp engines fitted with ZF 305A gearboxes. These particular gearboxes can not only reverse, but are engineered to provide the same torque in reverse and ahead modes.

Now, the hull shape may easily prevent the boat from doing its alleged 32-knot top speed in reverse; but 1080 combined horses will be able to yank any 13-ton vessel back smartly, especially a multihull with such little wet surface. In fact, I'd wager the Ady Gil might've been able to outrun that fat whaler in reverse in a dead pursuit.
I'd have to take that wager. I've seen a lot of boats and I've never seen one go backwards anywhere near what they can go forwards. Not only are the hulls designed to go forwards but so are the props. I don't mean to be rude but your claim is pretty ridiculous IMO.
Plus those Japanese ships are extremely fast for their size. Someone more familiar with the Sea Shepard might chime in, but I believe it was a naval pursuit boat and it was getting lapped by the whaling boats. Sufficed to say despite their size they're no slouches in the water.
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Old 16th May 2012, 07:47 PM   #316
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I'm with Howie,

Good post tyr 13.
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Old 16th May 2012, 07:50 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Howie Felterbush View Post
tyr 13, you're such a reasonable guy. Whether it's politics, religion or firearms, we can always count on you to post legitimate, well-reasoned ideas why one side or the other might be preferable.

I'm not sure you belong here.
I'm not really that reasonable. After all, I just realized that Kevin's points were in regards to treating the SS people the same as Somali pirates, not in opposing the tactics of them. My post has straw issues of it's own.

Now the Somali pirates do gain a bit of sympathy for being from, you know, Somalia.

It is worth considering that at some point to all of us, there are things where we would find violence and such tactics viable. I don't support whaling, but I also don't support the tactics of the SS people.
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Old 16th May 2012, 08:29 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Kevin, you're building an argument on straw.

First, it isn't 'annoying' humans, it's putting humans in real danger of injury and death.
That's pretty questionable. No humans have actually died, but hundreds of whales have (and hundreds more perhaps been saved). So if whale-life counts at all in your moral calculations you can't discount the possibility that the risk to human life is justified by the difference made to whale life.

Depending on your point of view it might or might not matter that the whales are innocent parties, whereas someone who has signed on for a Japanese whaling ship is not.

Quote:
Second, one need not assume anything about if you think whales are moral entities or not to oppose the tactics of the SS. The comparison to abortion clinic bombers is apt in that regard.
Only if you think actual, live whales with brains are equivalent to fetuses, and that the desire to not carry an unwanted baby to term is equivalent to the desire to eat some whale meat as opposed to the other available alternatives.

Otherwise it's not apt, it's utterly idiotic.

Quote:
You place a lot of emphasis on the ends the SS claims to want, protecting the whales. It's an 'ends justify the means' argument.
Indeed. Ends do justify means, sometimes. Outside the realm of children's cartoons, anyway. You'll find that outside of Superman comics it's rarely possible to stop all the bad people without some risk or consequences.

Quote:
However, even people who agree with the ends have been very critical of the means.
Appeal to popular stupidity.

Quote:
It does not 'come down to whether you think whales count as moral entities'. It comes down to whether you believe the ends justify the means and that the means are actually reaching the ends.
They're clearly reaching the ends - whalers are going home having killed far fewer whales than they are allowed to kill. I think some people want to believe Sea Shepherd are ineffective because that narrative suits them, but the facts are simply not on those people's side. From a skeptical perspective it's clear that Sea Shepherd are effective. Some people are just butthurt about the fact that they are effective and are casting about for some excuse to say "lol stupid hippies they never achieve anything".

(I guess they missed the kill markings post, listing the whaling ships that Sea Shepherd have dealt with in the past. Of all the things to criticise Sea Shepherd for, ineffectiveness is clearly a very foolish and ignorant choice).
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Old 16th May 2012, 09:07 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Furcifer View Post
I'd have to take that wager. I've seen a lot of boats and I've never seen one go backwards anywhere near what they can go forwards. Not only are the hulls designed to go forwards but so are the props. I don't mean to be rude but your claim is pretty ridiculous IMO.
If the Gil could only reverse at 15% of its forward speed, that's almost 5 knots. More than enough speed to back out of the way.

1080hp is going to pull that boat back significantly faster than 5 knots, but anyway. You can contest that the Gil wouldn't be a screaming demon in reverse, but it was perfectly able to move out of the way; there's just no question.
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Old 17th May 2012, 12:34 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
If the Gil could only reverse at 15% of its forward speed, that's almost 5 knots. More than enough speed to back out of the way.

1080hp is going to pull that boat back significantly faster than 5 knots, but anyway. You can contest that the Gil wouldn't be a screaming demon in reverse, but it was perfectly able to move out of the way; there's just no question.
Move out of the way, starting at what time? The time they actually started their engines, or some previous time?
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