The testimony of a former convert to Islam

[Humes fork]

Here is an interesting testimony of a self-described "former convert to Islam turned apostate, ex-muslim, freethinker, born-again atheist, and vegetarian gone wild!": I Left Islam: Journey Through Islam

It's a few years old, but a very interesting (and long!) read. He describes his background, how and why he converted to Islam, his path to a more orthodox, fundamentalist version Islam. He eventually became unimpressed with the pure, unadultered version of Islam:

Quote:

My withdrawal from Islaam occurred suddenly as I studied the Qur’aan and ahaadeeth. The same disillusionment I experienced as Buddhist and Christian began to now emerge while a Muslim. I found it difficult to believe in angels, jinn, or talking trees. My mind clustered with doubts and objections as I raged with discontent. The deity was fictitious and cruel, the founder deplorably barbaric and sinful, the scripture mediocre and uninspired, the laws primitive and unjust. I perceived Muhammad as a fraud and Allaah as his imaginary friend. Instantly, while holding the Qur’aan still open, I slammed the covers shut. I tossed the book across the room and ran downstairs. With two garbage bags, I eagerly erased Islaam from my life.

[mijopaalmc]

Sounds like this person refused to take anything on faith, and you're merely focusing on Islam.

[Ryokan]

Quote:

The same disillusionment I experienced as Buddhist and Christian began to now emerge while a Muslim.

Sounds like one of those guys trying out new religions every other week. I know a few people like that.

[KevinCanada]

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc

Sounds like this person refused to take anything on faith, and you're merely focusing on Islam.

Islam is based on faith... You cannot have one without the other.

While the definitions are different, it's like a man and women. take one out of the question and no babies. Yet all parties involved share the common characteristic of being human.

Samething applies in this case.

[mijopaalmc]

Originally Posted by KevinCanada

Islam is based on faith... You cannot have one without the other.

While the definitions are different, it's like a man and women. take one out of the question and no babies. Yet all parties involved share the common characteristic of being human.

Samething applies in this case.

Do you practice missing the point?

[KevinCanada]

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc

Do you practice missing the point?

do you practice being ambiguous in your replies in order to sound smart?

see I can do it too.

[KevinCanada]

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc

Do you practice missing the point?

Fine I'll be nice and break it down for you.

- Islam cannot exist with out sharia law
- Sharia law is a secular interpretation of the Qur'an
- Qur'an in Islamic nations is the law
- To be a Muslim you believe in the Qur'an

Therefore the Word Islam is a ideological umbrella term that cannot exist if one of the fundamentals is missing (Qur'an, Sharia and the Muslim)

Just like humans, take a mother or father out of the picture and no babies and in this case the word human is the umbrella term.

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by KevinCanada

- Sharia law is a secular interpretation of the Qur'an

No, shari'ah is defined as God's revealed law to guide humanity on the proper path, with the Qur'an merely one of the ways by which humans can figure out what shari'ah instructs.

"Secular shari'ah" is a contradiction in terms and a logical impossibility.

EDIT: Er, not that this has anything to do with the rest of your argument. Sometimes my pedantry gets the better of me.

[mijopaalmc]

Originally Posted by KevinCanada

Fine I'll be nice and break it down for you.

- Islam cannot exist with out sharia law
- Sharia law is a secular interpretation of the Qur'an
- Qur'an in Islamic nations is the law
- To be a Muslim you believe in the Qur'an

Therefore the Word Islam is a ideological umbrella term that cannot exist if one of the fundamentals is missing (Qur'an, Sharia and the Muslim)

Just like humans, take a mother or father out of the picture and no babies and in this case the word human is the umbrella term.

Do you practice missing the point?

I understand your argument, but, as a response to what I said, it completely fails, because I wasn't addressing the specific relationship between faith and Islam.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc

Do you practice missing the point?

I understand your argument, but, as a response to what I said, it completely fails, because I wasn't addressing the specific relationship between faith and Islam.

Well then. How about the title of the book: I Left Islam: Journey Through Islam? The appears to be about the loss of faith in the religion.

[mijopaalmc]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Well then. How about the title of the book: I Left Islam: Journey Through Islam? The appears to be about the loss of faith in the religion.

And the same person specifically mentioned that they had also abandoned Christianity and Buddhism.

[fishbob]

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc

And the same person specifically mentioned that they had also abandoned Christianity and Buddhism.

Good.

[kerikiwi]

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc

And the same person specifically mentioned that they had also abandoned Christianity and Buddhism.

That still leaves quite a few to go, doesn't it?

[mijopaalmc]

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

That still leaves quite a few to go, doesn't it?

I was just mentioning because the rejection of Islam in someone who had already adandoned other faiths doesn't imply anything unique about Islam as a religion. Rather, it suggests that the person rejects faith in general.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc

I was just mentioning because the rejection of Islam in someone who had already adandoned other faiths doesn't imply anything unique about Islam as a religion. Rather, it suggests that the person rejects faith in general.

Really? How about he is so gullible that he thinks the next one he investigates will be the real one? Not that are all profoundly silly?

[ANTPogo]

It's like he's taking "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" a little bit too literally...

[mijopaalmc]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Really? How about he is so gullible that he thinks the next one he investigates will be the real one? Not that are all profoundly silly?

I'm saying that I'm not surprised that someone who rejected two faiths before rejecting Islam also rejected Islam as well.

[devnull]

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc

I was just mentioning because the rejection of Islam in someone who had already adandoned other faiths doesn't imply anything unique about Islam as a religion. Rather, it suggests that the person rejects faith in general.

Well, except the leaving islam may well end up with his death, depending.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc

I'm saying that I'm not surprised that someone who rejected two faiths before rejecting Islam also rejected Islam as well.

Surely one might be real? If he had started out Rastafarian and then switched to Scientology, would you think the same way?

[paiute]

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

That still leaves quite a few to go, doesn't it?

He is currently a Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912 convert.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by paiute

He is currently a Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912 convert.

I'm presently working my way through the beliefs of the Children of Peace.

Good thing their temple is nearby. Sharon_Temple^WP

[MG1962]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Really? How about he is so gullible that he thinks the next one he investigates will be the real one? Not that are all profoundly silly?

I didn't read the article that way - he'd become dissatisfied with Christianity and was doing some comparative religious reading when he found Buddhist philosophies appealing - He mentions that looking back he didn't so much convert to Islam as was talked into it

[angrysoba]

Sounds to me like, "Once an idiot always an idiot!"

Quote:

My withdrawal from Islaam occurred suddenly as I studied the Qur’aan and ahaadeeth. The same disillusionment I experienced as Buddhist and Christian began to now emerge while a Muslim. I found it difficult to believe in angels, jinn, or talking trees.

Don't you think the guy could have read those books BEFORE converting to Islam?

He sounds like an idiot and I think there's obviously no point reading his "testimony" unless you too are an idiot.

[ddt]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Sounds to me like, "Once an idiot always an idiot!"

Don't you think the guy could have read those books BEFORE converting to Islam?

He sounds like an idiot and I think there's obviously no point reading his "testimony" unless you too are an idiot.

This. And after looking into a couple of religions (mainstream Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Baha'i, JW what I picked up quickly in the first few paragraphs), couldn't he have reasonably concluded that every religion likely is bunk?

Plus attention seeking. Writing how you're a Christian apostate or a Buddhist apostate doesn't garner attention, an Islam apostate however does. I didn't read the whole article (tl;dr) but did he include the obligatory (*) death threats for leaving Islam?

(*) obligatory in the sense that every (hyped) story of an Islam apostate should include them, otherwise the story is not interesting.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by MG1962

I didn't read the article that way - he'd become dissatisfied with Christianity and was doing some comparative religious reading when he found Buddhist philosophies appealing - He mentions that looking back he didn't so much convert to Islam as was talked into it

Fair enough.

I didn't actually read the article but the story seems familiar.

Eric Hoffer would understand.

[Humes fork]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Sounds to me like, "Once an idiot always an idiot!"



Don't you think the guy could have read those books BEFORE converting to Islam?

He sounds like an idiot and I think there's obviously no point reading his "testimony" unless you too are an idiot.

I disagree somewhat. It is not uncommon for young people to try out different identities, and it wouldn't surprise me if some people do so with religions, especially in North America which is a rather religious continent. Sure it is not perfectly rational, but then people who try out various subcultures (who often more or less owe their existences to young "seekers") are not perfectly rational in their processes either.

[LordofTruth]

Originally Posted by ddt

This. And after looking into a couple of religions (mainstream Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Baha'i, JW what I picked up quickly in the first few paragraphs), couldn't he have reasonably concluded that every religion likely is bunk?

Plus attention seeking. Writing how you're a Christian apostate or a Buddhist apostate doesn't garner attention, an Islam apostate however does. I didn't read the whole article (tl;dr) but did he include the obligatory (*) death threats for leaving Islam?

(*) obligatory in the sense that every (hyped) story of an Islam apostate should include them, otherwise the story is not interesting.

Assuming it is written by an ex-muslim (and I suspect it is), I don't think he's an idiot - he's articulate and reflective in what he says and doesn't seem intent on shocking or offending. He's quite respectful of islam when speaks of it.

On the 'About' tab he discusses apostacy and says (paraphrasing here) that it was the islamic attitude to apostacy that was his main reason for writing the essay. He encourages others to tell their stories too. If he thought the experiences of those apostising from other relitions were similar to those of apostising from islam, my guess is that he'd have said so. He's also clear that 'most ex-muslims dissappear into anonymity', so I don't think he's hyping up the apostacy angle.

Personally I believe many of the accounts of threats against high-profile and outspoken apostates from islam. If you can be seriously threatened with death for peaceful free-speech activism in the US (Molly Norris), or for writing an intelligent, literary novel (Salman Rushdie), or you even be killed for making short film in Holland(Theo van Gogh), it seems to me that many public apostates would take their security very seriously.

As far as I know, there aren't any equivalents of the 'celebrity' apostates from islam in relation to other religions. It does seem to be a phenomena unique to islam. I think they should be considered seriously, at least in regards to their personal experiences.

Thanks for posting!

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by LordofTruth

or for writing an intelligent, literary novel (Salman Rushdie), or you even be killed for making short film in Holland(Theo van Gogh), it seems to me that many public apostates would take their security very seriously.

The fatwa on Rushdie was a serious indictment of the Islamic Republic of Iran and its fanatical lunatic supporters who wanted to carry it out.

The Theo van Gogh murder was an unhinged individual. I don't think they're the same thing especially given that Van Gogh was not an apostate.

I think Islam's attitude to apostasy is barbaric but let's not use bad examples to illustrate that.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

The fatwa on Rushdie was a serious indictment of the Islamic Republic of Iran and its fanatical lunatic supporters who wanted to carry it out.

I actually worked with a guy (from somewhere in North Africa) with an advanced degree from the Sorbonne in Paris, who told me in all seriousness that, if Rushie was in from of him, he would kill him with his bare hands.

Quote:

The Theo van Gogh murder was an unhinged individual. I don't think they're the same thing especially given that Van Gogh was not an apostate.

And that is, of course, was why the act was condemned throughout the Islamic world?

Quote:

I think Islam's attitude to apostasy is barbaric but let's not use bad examples to illustrate that.

It's not like there are not a hundred more.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

[LordofTruth]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

The fatwa on Rushdie was a serious indictment of the Islamic Republic of Iran and its fanatical lunatic supporters who wanted to carry it out.

It was the indictment of Iran and it's lunatic supporters. I still say that was islam.

Originally Posted by angrysoba

The Theo van Gogh murder was an unhinged individual. I don't think they're the same thing especially given that Van Gogh was not an apostate.

It was done by an unhinged individual (Mohammed Bouyeri), but I still say that was islam too. Apparently, the note he pinned-with-a-knife to van Gogh's body was actually directed at Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who is an apostate (now that's seriously unhinged - if you're going to have the decency to murder someone, you should at least address any note you leave to them? It just wasn't etiquette, and clear proof that he was unhinged). IIUC: I think this was the event that actually sent Ayaan Hirsi Ali into hiding - before that she'd been quite public in her activities. Bouyeri was a bit of a loner, but he was also part of a small, informal jihadist group (The Hofstad Group, who were probably all unhinged individuals). I'm not sure if he was acting by himself or if the attack was organized by the group, but either way I still say that was islam.

I think God should have thought about how lunatic institutions and unhinged individuals would read into the Koran when he/she/it wrote it, and it's very unfortunate that he/she/it didn't. Theologically, one of my main problems with islam is that its god is so incompetent in regards to this crucial religious consideration.

[ddt]

Originally Posted by LordofTruth

It was done by an unhinged individual (Mohammed Bouyeri), but I still say that was islam too. Apparently, the note he pinned-with-a-knife to van Gogh's body was actually directed at Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who is an apostate (now that's seriously unhinged - if you're going to have the decency to murder someone, you should at least address any note you leave to them? It just wasn't etiquette, and clear proof that he was unhinged). IIUC: I think this was the event that actually sent Ayaan Hirsi Ali into hiding - before that she'd been quite public in her activities. Bouyeri was a bit of a loner, but he was also part of a small, informal jihadist group (The Hofstad Group, who were probably all unhinged individuals). I'm not sure if he was acting by himself or if the attack was organized by the group, but either way I still say that was islam.

Small correction: at the time of Van Gogh's murder, Hirsi Ali already had a permanent security detail. After Van Gogh's murder, her security was raised and she went indeed into hiding (at Camp Zeist IIRC). Van Gogh had been offered a security detail too, but he had declined. The main reason why Bouyeri went after them was the short film "Submission", which Hirsi Ali had conceived and written the script for and had asked Van Gogh to direct it. He probably saw Hirsi Ali as the main responsible for the movie (I agree) but Van Gogh was the only feasible target, walking and biking freely around Amsterdam.

[ddt]

Originally Posted by LordofTruth

Assuming it is written by an ex-muslim (and I suspect it is), I don't think he's an idiot - he's articulate and reflective in what he says and doesn't seem intent on shocking or offending. He's quite respectful of islam when speaks of it.

The "idiot" moniker is maybe not the best one. Yes, he's articulate. But the one thing that stands out is that he had looked into various other religions, flirted with a couple of them, and still converted to Islam without doing his due diligence. By that time, he should have been highly skeptical of anything bearing the label religion, wouldn't he?

Originally Posted by LordofTruth

On the 'About' tab he discusses apostacy and says (paraphrasing here) that it was the islamic attitude to apostacy that was his main reason for writing the essay. He encourages others to tell their stories too. If he thought the experiences of those apostising from other relitions were similar to those of apostising from islam, my guess is that he'd have said so. He's also clear that 'most ex-muslims dissappear into anonymity', so I don't think he's hyping up the apostacy angle.

Personally I believe many of the accounts of threats against high-profile and outspoken apostates from islam. If you can be seriously threatened with death for peaceful free-speech activism in the US (Molly Norris), or for writing an intelligent, literary novel (Salman Rushdie), or you even be killed for making short film in Holland(Theo van Gogh), it seems to me that many public apostates would take their security very seriously.

As far as I know, there aren't any equivalents of the 'celebrity' apostates from islam in relation to other religions. It does seem to be a phenomena unique to islam. I think they should be considered seriously, at least in regards to their personal experiences.

Thanks for posting!

Yes, I see now he's quite respectful and indeed focuses his gripe on the apostasy issue; and in that, I concur: I'm not aware of any other religion which puts such harsh penalties (or rather, penalty at all) on apostasy.

As regards the death threats: I'm aware of them, at one time it was quite the craze here. Everyone from politicians to stand-up comedians received Islamic death threats. Nowadays, seemingly no-one. Unsurprisingly, I've grown quite skeptical how many of those death threats were actually uttered of how many of those were serious.

I can, however, remember only one threat related to apostasy, and that's what I immediately thought of when I skimmed the article in the OP. Meet Ehsan Jami, the ex-muslim who never was a muslim to begin with, but merely an attention whore who got his 15 minutes of fame and faded into obscurity again.

I hope that explains my initial snark.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

I actually worked with a guy (from somewhere in North Africa) with an advanced degree from the Sorbonne in Paris, who told me in all seriousness that, if Rushie was in from of him, he would kill him with his bare hands.

Unfortunately I have heard similar things such as a guy from Pakistan who I was drinking a beer with. He told me he would have liked to have killed Salman Taseer himself if he had had the chance. At that point I walked off but earlier he had been telling me how he would never raise his son or daughter in Japan because Japan's culture is hugely permissive and materialistic. He said he would raise his children the way his father raised him in Pakistan which would make his children good Muslims. But, you yourself live here so it doesn't seem to make a difference if you raise your children in Pakistan does it? Ah, yes it does, he countered. Only last night, he went on, he picked up a nineteen year-old girl in a club and took her to a "love hotel" and shagged her. He said he doesn't want his children growing up with her loose morals. At this point I found his cognitive dissonance to be comical rather than sinister but the remark about Salman Taseer was disgusting and I couldn't listen to that garbage any more.

Quote:

And that is, of course, was why the act was condemned throughout the Islamic world?

I have no idea how much of an impact his death made on the Muslim world.

Quote:

It's not like there are not a hundred more.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

Well then use those examples. I'm not interested in a kid railing about his dislike for the various religions he joined.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Unfortunately I have heard similar things such as a guy from Pakistan who I was drinking a beer with. He told me he would have liked to have killed Salman Taseer himself if he had had the chance. At that point I walked off but earlier he had been telling me how he would never raise his son or daughter in Japan because Japan's culture is hugely permissive and materialistic. He said he would raise his children the way his father raised him in Pakistan which would make his children good Muslims. But, you yourself live here so it doesn't seem to make a difference if you raise your children in Pakistan does it? Ah, yes it does, he countered. Only last night, he went on, he picked up a nineteen year-old girl in a club and took her to a "love hotel" and shagged her. He said he doesn't want his children growing up with her loose morals. At this point I found his cognitive dissonance to be comical rather than sinister but the remark about Salman Taseer was disgusting and I couldn't listen to that garbage any more.

OK. That's two.

Quote:

I have no idea how much of an impact his death made on the Muslim world.

Me neither. But I have seen the pictures of the huge crowds calling for death to the infidels for printing a picture.

Quote:

Well then use those examples. I'm not interested in a kid railing about his dislike for the various religions he joined.

For the sake of the listening audience, I'll just point them to: http://www.jihadwatch.org/

[ANTPogo]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

For the sake of the listening audience, I'll just point them to: http://www.jihadwatch.org/

Yes, you should totally trust the website of a guy who runs organizations listed as hate groups by the Jewish Anti-Defamation League.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

OK. That's two.

You know which one I am talking about, right?

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Me neither. But I have seen the pictures of the huge crowds calling for death to the infidels for printing a picture.

I'm trying to work out how this is related to Theo van Gogh.

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

For the sake of the listening audience, I'll just point them to: http://www.jihadwatch.org/

Jihadwatch?!?!?

Wait, you're being serious, right?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Yes, you should totally trust the website of a guy who runs organizations listed as hate groups by the Jewish Anti-Defamation League.

Originally Posted by angrysoba

<snip>


Jihadwatch?!?!?

Wait, you're being serious, right?

Sorry. I thought I put enough smilies.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Sorry. I though I put enough smilies.

[Baloney]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Sounds like one of those guys trying out new religions every other week. I know a few people like that.

I agree. Being an atheist, I prefer to identify as an "atheist through skepticism" as opposed to "atheist because that's the next religious outlook on the list." My ex-wife is an atheist also, but believes in ghosts, UFOs, and crystal magic -- sure she's an atheist, due to the lack of god-beliefs, but carries a lot of woo baggage despite the label.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Yes, you should totally trust the website of a guy who runs organizations listed as hate groups by the Jewish Anti-Defamation League.

Can you recommend another site?


ETA: The italicized is an ad hom.